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Paco_Grande
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Re: Hypothetical 4" budget APO choices.. WWJD? new [Re: Fogboundturtle]
      #5648191 - 01/28/13 01:33 PM

So, what do you get for the additional $2,500 cost of the TV?

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Fogboundturtle
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Reged: 05/20/09

Loc: Burnaby, BC
Re: Hypothetical 4" budget APO choices.. WWJD? new [Re: Paco_Grande]
      #5648228 - 01/28/13 01:45 PM

Quote:

So, what do you get for the additional $2,500 cost of the TV?




My guess ? Probably a flatter field of view, a better focuser and probably an minimal better color correction. Is it worth 2500 more ? some perfectionist will tell you that 1-2% difference is worth it. Others will never notice.


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BigC
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Re: Hypothetical 4" budget APO choices.. WWJD? new [Re: Fogboundturtle]
      #5648316 - 01/28/13 02:19 PM

There was a book who's author's premise was the 80/20 rule;that is the first 80% of whatever is derived with 20% of the effort(cost) and every increase in performance costs more on an escalating curve.It actually does seem that way in real life.

So it comes down to is that last incremental improvement needed and can you pay for it ?

Barring winning a major lottery prize(and I hear you must buy tickets to have a chance of winning),I will likely never have a $5000 scopes but will be awed by the not-quite-perfect views of the $1000 (or less) scopes.

I'd love to have an ED version of my Celestron 150mm f8 refractor.


The $7000 current price of the Skywatcher 150 ed f7 is not quite what I had in mind.Interesting,well,terrifying, that there is such a huge jump in cost for 50% increase in aperture The doubling of cost for a more modest 20% aperture increase from 100 to 120 is enough of a shock.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Hypothetical 4" budget APO choices.. WWJD? new [Re: Paco_Grande]
      #5648653 - 01/28/13 04:36 PM

Quote:

So Jon, based on your comments, there is no reason to purchase (even if you could) a new TV102 at four times the cost of the Sky-Watcher.




I am not sure what the TV-102 cost new, I think it was about $2500 and that included a case, a clamshell and a 2 inch Everbright diagonal. There are good reasons to purchase a TV-102, the quality of the construction, the fact that TV services it... A nice scope. But side by side, at the eyepiece, these scopes are very similar.

The ED-80 and the ED-100 represented a revolution in terms of ED/apo telescopes. When the ED-80 arrived on the scene for $500, it was controversial as to whether it was an real ED/apo or just another scope with "fake ED glass" that was essentially an achromat. The Synta ED-100s pretty much eliminated the competition in the longer focal length 4 inch doublet market...

The remaining TeleVue 4 inch is the NP-101 which is very different scope than the TV-102 or the Synta ED-100s. It's a 4 element scope with two ED doublets, one is the objective, one is the dedicated field flattener/focal reducer. These are about $3000 more than the Synta/Skywatcher and for that money, you get a 540mm focal length with perfect color correction and 5 degree field of view that is free from field curvature and other aberrations.

Jon


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Paco_Grande
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Re: Hypothetical 4" budget APO choices.. WWJD? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5649123 - 01/28/13 08:04 PM

I'm just being the contrarian on this, or maybe just stirring the pot a little. The TV102, as best as I could tell from a Google search, sold for around $3,200. MSRP was $4,600.

Status is an important ownership value when you enter the high end market in any field. This field is no different. It's like spending $3,000 for two 3ft custom audio speaker cables. Some claim they can tell the difference. A tiny few probably can, the rest are blowing smoke.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Hypothetical 4" budget APO choices.. WWJD? new [Re: Paco_Grande]
      #5649829 - 01/29/13 08:15 AM

Quote:

I'm just being the contrarian on this, or maybe just stirring the pot a little. The TV102, as best as I could tell from a Google search, sold for around $3,200. MSRP was $4,600.

Status is an important ownership value when you enter the high end market in any field. This field is no different. It's like spending $3,000 for two 3ft custom audio speaker cables. Some claim they can tell the difference. A tiny few probably can, the rest are blowing smoke.




I looked it up...

TV-102

Orion ED-100

The TV-102 OTA with a very solid, fiberglass case sold for about $2200 in 2006. At that time, the bare Orion ED-100 sold for $1000.

Status may be a reason for some to purchase a telescope but that is not of interest to me nor does it enter into my comments concerning these telescopes. I buy telescopes to look through and I spend a lot of time looking through telescopes of all qualities. The difference between an NP-101 and a ED-100 is easy to quantify analytically, easy to see at the eyepiece. It doesn't doesn't take any special skill to see the different both at the eyepiece or just looking at the quality of the construction. At the eyepiece, seeing the difference between an TV-102 and a ED-100 is difficult but just looking at them, the difference in the mechanical quality is quite apparent.

Jon


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Kon Dealer
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Reged: 01/05/11

Loc: Cambridge UK
Re: Hypothetical 4" budget APO choices.. WWJD? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5649959 - 01/29/13 10:03 AM

Kson 1026 ED (f/6) in carbon fibre.
Short, unbelieveably light and cheap.
Small amount of CA on the very brightest objects, but
a great G&G.
I think it is a real bargain
http://store.smartastronomy.com/ksopmiedapor.html
(no affiliation and didn't buy here)


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lamplight
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Re: Hypothetical 4" budget APO choices.. WWJD? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5649968 - 01/29/13 10:12 AM

ive upgraded. in my mind, to the 120mm size. it seems manageable enough still and is somewhat still grab n go for me. in my LP i feel its worth the extra bit of aperture. ive gotten lost in the minutia and arguments over the different FPL glasses..over the last few days.. i can see its a hot topic..i am not inclined to learn the meaty details so im relying on the general opinion of those more experienced.. looks like im down to one of the following which i believe use all the same or similar lens elements that get good feedback and offer value for this aperture, price and f/ratio (120mm aperture at F/7.5):

EON 120 : not liking the finish. one on astromart for 1600.. too much.

WO Megrets 120ED : very nice. dont see any for sale.

Sky-Watcher "equinox" 120ED (like the design/mechanicals better than american version), but will probably have to order from canada. is there a big tax increase? VAT or something or is that only EU?. my current "top pic". i just dont know yet what it would cost me. would love to find one used!

Sky-Watcher Pro ED 120. nice all around for this range, $1600 new. a couple going slightly less used here and there..

TS 120 which looks incredible, but i dont think i can get in U.S. either.. looks to be about 2400+shipping. yikes.. id lean more towards the "equinox"

then theres the black diamond version of the sky-watcher which i havent compared yet.... still reading and looking and comparing.. these ones seem to have pretty good reviews regarding CA. im not really looking at or reading about spherical aberration as for visual i dont see it as an issue too much. it helps me get to sleep at night ironically.


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Fogboundturtle
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Reged: 05/20/09

Loc: Burnaby, BC
Re: Hypothetical 4" budget APO choices.. WWJD? new [Re: lamplight]
      #5650070 - 01/29/13 11:11 AM

Might as well go for a triplet if your budget allows it. I have an Meade 127mm APO Triplet F7.5. I love this scope. First of all, the focuser is awesome. You got an ridiculous amount of tube. There is not one camera that I was not able to obtain focus. The color is very well corrected. It comes with an flight case and a very good diagonal.

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SteveG
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Re: Hypothetical 4" budget APO choices.. WWJD? new [Re: Fogboundturtle]
      #5650475 - 01/29/13 02:46 PM

Is the OP now looking for a budget 4.7" APO?

I agree that the 102 is matched optically by the 100 ED, which can be had for $400 used (tube only). They are fantastic refractors at a bargain price. I'm also on board with the low-cost 4.7" ED doublets. Still a bargain if you can find one, but quite a bit more cost than the 4" models.


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lamplight
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Re: Hypothetical 4" budget APO choices.. WWJD? new [Re: SteveG]
      #5652561 - 01/30/13 03:35 PM

Quote:

Is the OP now looking for a budget 4.7" APO?





yes i think so. ive learned budget is not the right word. thanks for all the help everyone, im on the right track (to bankruptcy!)


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Hypothetical 4" budget APO choices.. WWJD? new [Re: lamplight]
      #5652594 - 01/30/13 03:47 PM

Quote:


ive upgraded. in my mind, to the 120mm size. it seems manageable enough still and is somewhat still grab n go for me.




I have owned a couple of 120mm refractors. I prefer a 4 inch, preferably faster, shorter. A 120mm F/8 refractor is about as much effort to deal with as a 8 or 10 inch Dob. A 4 inch F/6-f/7 more like dealing with an 80mm on steroids.

Jon


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Tony Flanders
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Re: Hypothetical 4" budget APO choices.. WWJD? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5652747 - 01/30/13 04:49 PM

Quote:

I have owned a couple of 120mm refractors. I prefer a 4 inch, preferably faster, shorter.




And I will repeat my previous question. As you move up in the aperture leagues, what's wrong with a 6-inch reflector? More portable than a 120-mm refractor, much cheaper, and closely comparable light gathering and image quality.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Hypothetical 4" budget APO choices.. WWJD? new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #5653197 - 01/30/13 08:55 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I have owned a couple of 120mm refractors. I prefer a 4 inch, preferably faster, shorter.




And I will repeat my previous question. As you move up in the aperture leagues, what's wrong with a 6-inch reflector? More portable than a 120-mm refractor, much cheaper, and closely comparable light gathering and image quality.




Tony:

Indeed... over the years, the traditional 6 inch F/8 Newtonian gained the reputation as an "apo-killer." The classic Criterion RV-6 (last built about 1978) has a light weight phenolic tube, a small secondary and a simple clean aluminum mirror cell. The optical tube assembly weighs 8 lbs and these are very capable performers as planetary and double star telescopes.

Jon



Edited by Jon Isaacs (01/30/13 08:56 PM)


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Paco_Grande
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Reged: 07/14/12

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Re: Hypothetical 4" budget APO choices.. WWJD? [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5653268 - 01/30/13 09:47 PM Attachment (14 downloads)

My apo-killer I'm still a refractor fan.

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Paco_Grande
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Reged: 07/14/12

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Re: Hypothetical 4" budget APO choices.. WWJD? new [Re: lamplight]
      #5653291 - 01/30/13 09:57 PM

Quote:



Sky-Watcher "equinox" 120ED (like the design/mechanicals better than american version), but will probably have to order from canada. is there a big tax increase? VAT or something or is that only EU?. my current "top pic". i just dont know yet what it would cost me.




Matt, I ordered my Sky-Watcher newt from Brandon Optics in BC, Canada. No special taxes. But shipping is more expensive and you'll have to pay someone to handle the customs process. If it's UPS, they'll give you a bill and won't deliver until you pay. $

40 for shipping to Northern Calif and $60 for custom's fees.

Bottom line, it cost me about $100 for shipping and customs fees to get that SW newt here. I have no regrets. It's one of those scopes you can't imaging selling, like a laid back Chihuahua.


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lamplight
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Re: Hypothetical 4" budget APO choices.. WWJD? new [Re: Paco_Grande]
      #5653760 - 01/31/13 07:52 AM

I responded yest but I guess I never pushed send.

Re: why refractor: I like the ease of setup, lack of maintenance (generally), fast cool down, sharp images and good contrast, the usual..my Achro has been my winter scope, But since I'm in LP I want more aperture..as much a s s reasonable to handle between this and a DOB I have coming.. Another ing pushing me to explore an APO is that I see the CA more lately... (Maybe just because I've been using this scope all winter every chance I can)

Jon the 4.7" range doesn't seem all that much bigger (??). The ones I'm looking at look really well built and everywhere I see good reviews of very low to no visible CA. I worry that if I went a triplet and stayed in the 100mm range (about same cost as these exceptionally good doublets) I would not get a noticeable upgrade in light gathering.

Edited by lamplight (01/31/13 08:46 AM)


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lamplight
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Re: Hypothetical 4" budget APO choices.. WWJD? new [Re: lamplight]
      #5653810 - 01/31/13 08:39 AM

The skywatcher 120ed is 11.3 lbs, my xlt 100 is 9lbs
The 120 ed (f/7.5) is 38", the 100 xlt is 39.5"

So in this comparison is really negligible increase in terms of what I and the mounts ill use can and would handle.

However, I'm looking at the beefier equinox and TS tubes which weigh in slightly under 16lbs with rings. Still very doable to me, and I don't see tube length info on these websites.. But it has to be similar to the skywatcher 120.

I THINK this would be the upper limit of practicality in size and weight for me (for a portable refractor).

Edited by lamplight (01/31/13 08:43 AM)


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Gert K A
sage


Reged: 07/16/12

Loc: Copenhagen, Denmark
Re: Hypothetical 4" budget APO choices.. WWJD? new [Re: lamplight]
      #5653854 - 01/31/13 09:00 AM

Quote:

-- Matt:
I don't see tube length info on these websites..




Your link from APM say "The TS 120/900mm ED APO" so 900mm or 34½" betting on the dewshield is retractable


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REC
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Re: Hypothetical 4" budget APO choices.. WWJD? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5653882 - 01/31/13 09:19 AM

Ah pretty:) It was my first real scope in 1964!
Bob


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