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General Astronomy >> General Observing and Astronomy

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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: Achernar]
      #5656969 - 02/01/13 07:00 PM

Quote:

That's a good question Maya. Maybe it's actually seeing something that very few humans ever get to see directly with their own eyes, knowing it's at a mind chilling distance from Earth. No camera, no computer enhancement, just photons reaching and creating an electrical signal in your retina is a very different experience for me than looking at a photo or a monitor screen. Time and time again, I come across objects I never thought could be seen visually through any telescope, as a recognizable entity. Perhaps visual astronomy is like hunting or fishing, in an indirect way. I enjoy the challenge of locating and observing galaxies and nebulae, many of which are not easy to find, even with large telescopes and digital setting cricles. Especially when you are in a lightpolluted area where the skies are often milky. It's not about success or failure, anytime you get to enjoy time under the stars, no matter where you do it is a success. Astronomy is not a competition after all, there is plenty to go around for everyone.

Taras




This is what was in my mind to reply to Maya; however Taras, you put it so eloquently, that your post bears repeating!


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Crow Haven
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 01/09/09

Loc: Oregon USA
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5657019 - 02/01/13 07:37 PM

Agreed, Carol I understand what both Taras and you experience while hunting for and discovering DSOs. There is an amazing feeling to finding and viewing these mysterious objects which hold so many secrets so far back in time and space. I do find it relaxing as well just to meander among the stars. I come away from it somehow feeling renewed.

The "hunting" aspect of it is interesting...could this be more appealing to men than some women? Although ladies certainly can "hunt" as well.


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csa/montana
Den Mama
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Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: Crow Haven]
      #5657032 - 02/01/13 07:46 PM

Maya; speaking for myself, I look at it more as "discovering", rather than hunting, even though in reality we do "hunt" down the objects we want to see. I know that seems like just a play of words; but when I "discover" one of the wonders of the sky, I'm so excited, that it's a good thing no one is around, as I catch myself exclaiming outloud, "Wow", etc.

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Carol L

*****

Reged: 07/05/04

Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: Crow Haven]
      #5657332 - 02/01/13 11:07 PM

Quote:

What is it that keeps all of you doing visual astronomy when all those incredible astrophotos are available?




The photos are nice, but for me they're impersonal.
Exploring the night sky visually is like getting a soul-massage.


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droid
rocketman
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Reged: 08/29/04

Loc: Conneaut, Ohio
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: astro_baby]
      #5657619 - 02/02/13 06:25 AM

Hey I remember yahoo groups.....lol

They werent all bad......

and honestly some of the best observers I know are women, Carol L was the one who told me about cloudy nights.


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Tony Flanders
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/18/06

Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: Crow Haven]
      #5657638 - 02/02/13 06:55 AM

Quote:

I spoke with a 17 yr old a few months back who told me she was really interested in studying astrophysics. Her school doesn't offer observational astronomy and she really wished they did, but it's not deemed necessary.




For what it's worth, astrophysics has never been closely tied to observational astronomy. Its roots lie in spectroscopy, which is fundamentally different from visual observing. A fair number of professional astronomers started out as stargazers, but definitely less than half.

Astrophysics is much more closely tied to mathematics than observing.

Quote:

Is there less interest in observational astronomy for women (and men)due in part to those gorgeous astrophotos easily available to most everyone?




In general, the internet and electronic communiction has caused a precipitous decline in what I might call reality-based activities. For instance, visitorship to National Parks is way down.

A related phenomenon is that I rarely see a young person -- and increasingly older people too -- walking down the street and not talking on a cell phone. Or often a couple walking down the street both talking on their cell phones. Why are they so eager to divorce their minds from what their bodies are experiencing?


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NeilMac
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 09/25/10

Loc: MedHat, AB, Canada
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: Carol L]
      #5657997 - 02/02/13 11:57 AM

Quote:

Quote:

What is it that keeps all of you doing visual astronomy when all those incredible astrophotos are available?




The photos are nice, but for me they're impersonal.
Exploring the night sky visually is like getting a soul-massage.




i agree nothing replaces direct sight however having pictures of what one has seen is a great way of reminding me of whats out their.Not having photographic memory, i place my pics on the desktop background, not others.


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astro_baby
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 06/17/08

Loc: United Kingdom
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: NeilMac]
      #5658270 - 02/02/13 02:29 PM

I seldom look at pics and to me it all seems a bit pointless spending a ton of money and hours in front of a PC to take a pic that lots of other people have done and which, come the crunch, is always done better by NASA or ESA.

The whole picture thing leaves me cold, mostly because I would hate to have to sit in front of a PC more than I already do.

To me the observing is more important. Yes it wont as impressive a view of the sights but ai will be diectly experiencing it. Its the difference between having a pic of the Eiffel tower and being there in in Paris seeing it for myself.

But its also more than that. I like to be out, having a cup of coffee under a canopy of stars, i like the night air, the peace and quiet. I think of it more as communing with the cosmos and helps to put all my earthly worries to one side.

I am a little bit Zen in that respect. To me its about setting up, having a place for everything and everything to its place. The scopes are alwaus lovingly handled. Set up with a calm, quiet precision and then used to experience the wonders of the universe directly. To me it almost doesnt matter what I observe. I dont pretend to be scientific about it. Its beyond that its me on a lonely hillsside enjoying the views. Sometimes I stand back from the scope while I sip my coffee and just marvel at the view with my eyes. Sometimes I wonder of someone like me is looking up from a planet orbiting one of the small dots I am seeing and also wondering.

The female urge to nurture is very much a part of this. The equipment is cared for, prepared, cleaned and always immaculate. At the end of every session the equipment is packed away and once home checked, allowed to clear in a warm room and carefully packed away again.

Periodically its cleaned, checked over etc.

Sorry, too much of vino collapso tonite. Thats all a bit personal but maybe explains this girls attitudes to astronomy.

By contrast ai often see guys who seem to make it a race, a competition, a fight for who can do a Messier marathon. Who cares woud be my response, its beautiful up there and ai dont want to race, compete or bring the hassles of everyday life into it. I want peace and quiet and calm not another competition.

I do outreach when I can and I like to show others some of the wonders, that comes down to the nurturing element.

Remember the old saw that patience is a virtue, catch it if you can, seldom in a woman, never in a man. Well women have patience thats for sure and one thing the hobby always needs is a bucket full of patience especially here in the UK right now as we head into almost three straight months of cloud


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killdabuddha
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 08/26/11

Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: astro_baby]
      #5658359 - 02/02/13 03:27 PM

Astronomy is also the first science, and everyone knows that man came first, so it's only natural that astronomy would be male-dominated. As for the nurturing and Zen aspects, there are more men doin outreach and bein lone sky-adventurers/canopy-embracers than women. Now that I think of it, given the male dominance of astronomy I honestly can't find any quarter from which a woman can even speak to the question. Women also aren't very logical and will often commit the fallacy from faulty generalization with things like, "Women are patient and men aren't," compounding the difficulty by only mustering an informal fallacy where a formal one is posited and by having to recruit other lesser fallacies such as, in this case, the argumentum ad populum, the definist fallacy, reification, the psychologist's fallacy, ignoratio elenchi, the Ludic fallacy and, even if it WERE true that women are more patient than men, the fallacy of cum hoc ergo propter hoc, etc., etc. But we love you anyway, enuf even to partake of the apple and die to our own superiority. Little consolation that we men are burdened with sound logic as a mere residue and consequence of A woman us[ing] her intelligence to find reasons to support her intuition.

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Crow Haven
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 01/09/09

Loc: Oregon USA
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: NeilMac]
      #5658380 - 02/02/13 03:41 PM

Carol and Carol L. -- I'm right with you!

I do get very inspired by the beautiful astrophotos others share with us. Even though I know my telescope's DSOs view is different from these they still inspire me to want to find them myself and experience viewing them "for real." I'm always just amazed -- both that I found them and by today's knowledge of what they are and contain.

I'm a casual "backyard" astronomy enthusiast. I come at it from an appreciation of not only what we learn from it but the beauty, in an artistic sense, which enthralls me.

So many on these forums have far far greater knowledge than I! The discussions on various topics fly well over my head at times, but I enjoy "listening" in to hear the views...to learn. CN is valuable and inspiring to me. I also find astronomy books and magazines a real boon for the same reason. Exposure to astronomy through various media is key. Maybe women get less of that?

There's no local club here so I just do my own thing. In the few clubs I have been part of the outreach programs were wonderful, and one of them even helped to inspire a high school to build an observatory for its students. Outreach can inspire so many to wade in and discover what astronomy can offer them. It provides the chance, not only for women, but all to get a start in enjoying the hobby.

Digital media certainly is here to stay and is as useful as we want it to be. Another CN thread brings up the worry of how long print media will survive and whether digital format is better...I don't know. Communication rules, one way or another. Digital format works but, for myself, I've found it far more likely I'll investigate a topic in depth that I've laid my eyes on in a magazine or book I come across. Which brings to mind, I rarely see the astro magazines in shops, offices, libraries -- too few copies are floating around! I think if more were out there people would notice and get interested in astronomy through just this casual contact. Those incredible astrophotos do help catch the attention. I don't know how this would be done, though, considering the cost...so digital access will probably dominate over time.

My perspective on cell phone use is skewed since out here in "the sticks" I haven't felt the need for a smart phone, and truly, I rarely even use the basic cell phone I have. I don't text or use a voice mail and I'm still using dial-up... so I don't have an understanding of why there's nearly continual use of cell phones (I've seen couples in restaurants both spending most of their time talking on their phones instead of being present with each other). Is it time and distance/busy jobs getting in the way of people staying in touch? It certainly looks odd when cell phone use dominates over "in person" communication. We're loosing and gaining simultaneously here?

Anyway, just my 2 cents...sorry for veering off-topic!


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tubehead999
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 11/25/08

Loc: Kennesaw, GA
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: killdabuddha]
      #5658384 - 02/02/13 03:44 PM

Geez dude....Perpetuating the late 1800's attitude toward women, who, BTW, are WAY more intelligent than we ever thought about being....when you can admit that, then you are as smart as they are .

Then you throw the religious symbolism in to justify the rest of the post?

The ladies on the forum are still in shock at your post.....and so am I.


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killdabuddha
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 08/26/11

Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: tubehead999]
      #5658571 - 02/02/13 05:34 PM

LOL. TY tubehead for pointing out the obvious. Not only was I bein tongue-in-cheeky, but I also committed summa the most egregious fallacies known to man AND woman. But if I'm gonna be called on my bluff and forced to reduce the question to sumthin literal/meaningful, then I'll admit to bein more feminine than 90% of you guys and maybe many of you girls. Oh well...so much for readin b/t the lines. BUT, and more to my purposes, yer Victorian reference should at least raise sum flags...e.g., what kinda "civilization," for all of its "progress," produces these kinda absurdities, and what are the foundations thereof? I mean, we're talkin about life and death things here, and things even more important, to whom the speakers for which we've sold ourselves wholesale. Good god, man. I'd venture that the women here saw thru me better than you, which is ok, cuz at least yer makin yer own point, which is a good one. I was doin the same thing earlier when I said that men were better at math, which we know was true but that well was poisoned, because we tried to prevent/discourage girls in math because we believed such to be true. Gotta nuther belief? My specialty is disabusing folk of their notions.

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Crow Haven
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 01/09/09

Loc: Oregon USA
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: killdabuddha]
      #5658659 - 02/02/13 06:17 PM

Interesting tactic?

Progress and civilization...the good ol' bad ol' days...goes great with a stake... Sorry, I haven't got time to go there again, to launch off-topic and become, "The Thread Killer."

I'm interested in ideas which can encourage others to explore astronomy -- as a hobby or more. Any other ideas or stories to relate of things that help? Maybe some here can carry these with them to share and improve in outreach efforts.


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tubehead999
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 11/25/08

Loc: Kennesaw, GA
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: killdabuddha]
      #5658756 - 02/02/13 07:19 PM

Yeah..I am a literal dude ......I didn't say literate...literal...

Egalitarianism seemed to be missing from this thread...if one reads between the lines on a number of these posts; it is reminiscent of the good old boy country club set. Not all of course....but enough to surprise.

And we wonder why we can't attract more folks to the hobby, especially women?

And yes, it has been proven to my satisfaction many times that the female of any species is more intelligent than the male.

Man has to know his limitations....


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roscoe
curmudgeon
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Reged: 02/04/09

Loc: NW Mass, inches from VT
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: astro_baby]
      #5658901 - 02/02/13 08:45 PM

Quote:

By contrast I often see guys who seem to make it a race, a competition, a fight for who can do a Messier marathon. Who cares would be my response, its beautiful up there and I dont want to race, compete or bring the hassles of everyday life into it. I want peace and quiet and calm not another competition.





I've had a scope or two around for about 50 years, and still haven't completed my Messier list........and can't say as I try very hard. My observational style is usually to just pick an area of sky and scan around, looking for cool things, could be clusters or galaxies or doubles or....whatever, and if I'm curious, pull the numbers off my circles and look on a chart to see what it is I discovered. I can certainly find, and usually visit, the 'top ten' any night, and will show them to anyone who's interested, but usually, it's just me and the peace and quiet of the night, star-gazing.

Russ


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killdabuddha
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 08/26/11

Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: Crow Haven]
      #5659070 - 02/02/13 10:56 PM

Quote:

Interesting tactic?

Progress and civilization...the good ol' bad ol' days...goes great with a stake... Sorry, I haven't got time to go there again, to launch off-topic and become, "The Thread Killer."

I'm interested in ideas which can encourage others to explore astronomy -- as a hobby or more. Any other ideas or stories to relate of things that help? Maybe some here can carry these with them to share and improve in outreach efforts.




No tactic. And the discussion of the history of civilization is exactly on point with the OP's question. Maybe you'd like a rundown of all the contributions to astronomy made by women who were otherwise banned from so many universities' science curricula until recently? The short answer to the OP's question is that for the last 5,000 years everything has been male-dominated outside of the home. The wisdom of the mother goddess was supplanted by the force of better weapons, such that, even as recently as Rome, Dionysian ritual was suppressed and eventually eradicated at the point of a spear. Direct participation and experience in the mysteries was supplanted by "reason" and authority vis a vis dead letters on a page. (In fact, this is the message of the grail legend, epitomized in the duel between the Muslim and the Christian jousting on horseback. Christianity won the day but was itself mortally wounded by castration in the contest, which is to say that it no longer had the generative force of its source, which was nature. Funny thing about nature, reality and life--it refuses to be bound in a book. And yes, it's the womb and not the seed that originally and better represented this power.) AUTHORity is a fiction. Just ask an AUTHOR. Encourage others into astronomy all you want. I do. But a discussion as to why there aren't more women in it is in no way detrimental to that interest. My own humble opinion is that we've accepted the symbol for the THING, words for reality, and we're payin the price. The history of civilization, and therefore of astronomy as we know it, is one of conquest, control and subjugation by edict (word) and allegiance (idea). Remember Galileo? When Columbus or Cortez stumbled upon the Americas they had for their authority and right the written word, and that was it. Well, that, subterfuge, "Guns, Germs and Steel," and a few other "advantages." But behind it all had to be the will to conquer and possess, and yes, insofar as there are differences between men and women, men, or at least a select few of them, have this trait in spades over women. There are, and will continue to be, more women in it, count on that, and it's only taken 5,000 years of "progress" and promise to get us there. Interest in astronomy, on a personal basis, doesn't usually (ever?) come about because somebody else had an idea as to how to involve them in sumthin for which they have no inclination, unless yer John Dobson. Then again, the only thing he did was to make available sumthin to which people had never been exposed. But then as now, and especially given our current educational crisis and its budgetary constraints, astronomy will continue to be the luxury that it is and most kids who are gonna be people one day (sorry--couldn't resist) will still never have been exposed, unless the astronomy community finds a creative way to put a scope in every school, and that really wouldn't be difficult. I'm also with tubehead and have said as much when welcoming the rare female newcomer to CN. Sometimes it smells like a sweat sock in here, especially when posts have that authoritative, impersonal, unimaginative masculine ring to them. But yeah, it IS the word and the idea that has so long controlled much of who does what, so we shouldn't rely on these when it's inspiration that's needed, and a genuine regard for others. And neither men nor women have a monopoly on that.


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azure1961p
Postmaster
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Reged: 01/17/09

Loc: USA
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? [Re: killdabuddha]
      #5659101 - 02/02/13 11:15 PM



I truly truly wonder if its because guys in general are more prone to find these kinds of pursuits and not be because they are necessarily expressions of virility or male ego, but just the chemistry of the male mind.

Am I wrong or are most sports and hobbies male dominated even if its 60%? Even skiing and scuba is primarily male.

Pete

Edited by azure1961p (02/02/13 11:18 PM)


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orion61

*****

Reged: 10/20/07

Loc: Birthplace James T Kirk
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: MikeBOKC]
      #5659395 - 02/03/13 06:25 AM

Quote:

Frankly I think this hobby tends to attract men who are, shall we say, less testosterone soaked than you would find on a forum about trap shooting or NASCAR or football or even fishing. Astronomy is not an athletic endeavor; it is often a solitary pursuit with no "team" ethic; it demands patience; there's little instant gratification involved; it is rarely competitive, and it tends to attract guys (and gals) who were probably known as nerds in 10th grade. Hardly a big-muscle, beer-swilling macho pursuit.



Try carrying a 12" LX200 50 yards from your car to your viewing site.. Isn't there a show where guys carry big rocks and stuff around? LOL
And how many of those He Men would brave a swarm of Africanized Mosquitoes?


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astro_baby
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 06/17/08

Loc: United Kingdom
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5659402 - 02/03/13 06:41 AM

And most hobbies like needlework, cooking, knitting, lacemaking, embroidery, quiltmaking plus keep fit like aerobics, yoga, pilates are female dominated

The sports thing probably stems from ancient Greece where the Spartans, the eventual top dogs, ran a very fascist and anti femme culture.

Women have alwas played a big role in science, although their contributions have often been run down or sidelined by the male patriarchy.

Marie Curie is the big one but look at poole old Rosalind Franklin, completely mis represented by the male dominated science arena for many years and seen as a harridan and harp just because she wouldnt play ball with the men. I am thinking also of Lise Meitner, almost forgotten except to historians of science...she was, according to some sources, the first to see the possible power of an atomic weapon. Forgotten now because she refused to be involved.

Thats all a bit off topic but there is a lurch towards women cook and men do hobbies etc. Thats often the case because men are allowed to and women very often have to fight just to be allowed the space and some of us cant be bothered. We have been conditioned over generations to believe what our society has considered right, male and female roles and women who dissent have at various times been imprisoned, abused, harried etc and even when successful have been less so than they might have perhaps been if they werent having to defend themselves.

As a modern eample of how ba this can get just take a look at whats happening in Australia right now with their Prime Minister.


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Tony Flanders
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/18/06

Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5659687 - 02/03/13 10:33 AM

Quote:

I truly truly wonder if its because guys in general are more prone to find these kinds of pursuits and not because they are necessarily expressions of virility or male ego, but just the chemistry of the male mind.




Several people have suggested that in more or less those words. Let me try to dispose of it once and for all.

There is very likely some truth to this statement; however, it is untestable. More to the point, it is not a very helpful way of looking at the isssue. Let me expand.

Although there are surely some inherent differences in male and female minds -- or, more precisely, different tendencies or averages -- it's impossible in practice to tell which differences are inherent and which are cultural. It's fair to say that people tend to underestimate the importance of culture; history is littered with differences between different groups that were once assumed to be innate and later proved to be cultural.

Quote:

Am I wrong or are most sports and hobbies male dominated even if its 60%? Even skiing and scuba is primarily male.




Sports are a case in point. There have always been sports that were exclusively female (field hockey) or dominated by women at the highest levels (softball). But fifty years ago it would have been obvious that sports are inherently male-dominated.

Now it's not obvious at all. Soccer, the fastest growing sport in the U.S., and one of the few sports that's played the same by both sexes, is definitely more popular among girls than boys in my region of the U.S. Given the current trends, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see women dominating in many sports within the next 50 years.

I pointed out a similar example in my first response. Fifty years ago, boys did far better than girls in math and science. Now the reverse is true; girls outperform boys in these subjects at the high-school level, and in some areas of science women outnumber men among PhDs.

It's worth noting that everyone in this thread who has suggested that the difference in astronomy particpation is innate has been a man. This is totally unsurprising.

Throughout history, when one subgroup has been in a position of greater power than others, the dominant subgroup has always believed that the difference is due to inherent superiority -- whether because they're chosen by God, racially purer, bigger, braver, smarter ... whatever.

The subordinate subgroups are generally less enthusiastic about that point of view.

But leaving questions of truth aside, it's simply not helpful to say that the difference is innate. That's no more or less helpful than saying that the difference is cultural. Both of those statements are surely true (they are in no way contradictory!), but they're just a way of avoiding asking the hard questions.

If there's something innate in male biology -- or something cultural -- that makes men more prone to stargazing than women, what is it? That's the interesting question.


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