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Equipment Discussions >> Electronically Assisted Astronomy

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jambi99
sage


Reged: 08/14/10

Loc: Québec, Canada
Re: 17 sec (x1024) Camera Sony 960h Exview HAD CCD new [Re: mattflastro]
      #5659082 - 02/02/13 11:02 PM

We understood the first time

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mattflastro
Vendor - Astrovideo Systems


Reged: 07/31/09

Loc: Brevard County , FL
Re: 17 sec (x1024) Camera Sony 960h Exview HAD CCD new [Re: jambi99]
      #5660217 - 02/03/13 03:40 PM

Quote:

We understood the first time



I apologize for the multiple posts. I only posted one message during a time the forum server was apparently very sluggish. The forum window went blank and stopped responding or was waiting for the server . I closed the window. I saw now that it had posted 6 or 7 copies of the same msg at the same time .


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jambi99
sage


Reged: 08/14/10

Loc: Québec, Canada
Re: 17 sec (x1024) Camera Sony 960h Exview HAD CCD new [Re: mattflastro]
      #5660868 - 02/03/13 10:57 PM

Hehe i was just kidding.

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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: 17 sec (x1024) Camera Sony 960h Exview HAD CCD new [Re: jambi99]
      #5661087 - 02/04/13 02:40 AM

Does the Lntech 300 have AES (Auto Electronic Shutter)?

I suppose AES makes a CCTV not good for video astronomy because it never keeps the exposure fixed by the user.

How can you stop AES if it isn't such a setting on the OSD of the CCTV?


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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: 17 sec (x1024) Camera Sony 960h Exview HAD CCD new [Re: Moromete]
      #5661121 - 02/04/13 04:09 AM

What do you think about this camera http://www.novuscctv.com/en/node/8060 ?

It has Sony Super HAD CCD II sensor, Mechanical IR filter and 20s (PAL) integration time with DSS (Digital Slow Shutter). The price is ~100 Euro.


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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: 17 sec (x1024) Camera Sony 960h Exview HAD CCD new [Re: Moromete]
      #5666271 - 02/06/13 11:47 PM

Anyone?

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ccs_hello
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/03/04

Re: 17 sec (x1024) Camera Sony 960h Exview HAD CCD new [Re: Moromete]
      #5666635 - 02/07/13 08:34 AM

No detailed users manual to look into to see if it can fit in the astro video applications.

BTW, there are plenty of new videocams start showing up in the market. Not just this one. Guessing is not a good strategy. Buy one then found out if it's not a good fit (by luck) is also not good.

With all recent findings, e.g., AES lock-down (or lack of manual control) is not so good. These details can't be easily obtained.
P.S. you have to hack the videocam's firmware to defeat that which is an easy job for the mfg (but LNtech said no and unwilling to escalate to the camera DSP's vendor RJ Elec <-- it's the "who pays the Engineering Cost" game) but extremely difficult for us.

Clear Skies!

ccs_hello


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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: 17 sec (x1024) Camera Sony 960h Exview HAD CCD new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #5666865 - 02/07/13 11:02 AM

Here is the user manual http://www.novuscctv.com/en/webfm_send/3114 . Please have a look.

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yaesu77
member


Reged: 11/04/12

Re: 17 sec (x1024) Camera Sony 960h Exview HAD CCD new [Re: Moromete]
      #5667305 - 02/07/13 03:34 PM

Possible that there is such a camera that transmits in wifi? I'd like to receive the image on my Android device.

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jambi99
sage


Reged: 08/14/10

Loc: Québec, Canada
Re: 17 sec (x1024) Camera Sony 960h Exview HAD CCD new [Re: yaesu77]
      #5667571 - 02/07/13 05:58 PM

You could use a laptop and connect the camera using a frame grabber to it. Then remotely control\view the lapop using a vnc client on your android device.Just look for vnc connectivity. This will require wifi network. I think its the easiest and cheapest way to do it.

Edited by jambi99 (02/07/13 07:41 PM)


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ccs_hello
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/03/04

Re: 17 sec (x1024) Camera Sony 960h Exview HAD CCD new [Re: Moromete]
      #5667794 - 02/07/13 08:21 PM

Quote:

Here is the user manual http://www.novuscctv.com/en/webfm_send/3114 . Please have a look.




In gain setting, it has no-AGC, Automatic Gain Control-low, AGC-medium, and AGC-high. Not seeing any mentioning of manual gain control. No dependency on how its setting with other setting would interact.

1024x is by Sense-Up setting (unlike LNtech300's use Electric Lens MENU.) No clue on how it is implemented (e.g., on-CCD long exposure, or multiple summing of medium-time exposures).

So in summary YMMV, probably not optimal.

Clear Skies!

ccs_hello


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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: 17 sec (x1024) Camera Sony 960h Exview HAD CCD new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #5668172 - 02/08/13 12:18 AM

Thx.

It has AGC Low-Med-High (see page 13 in User Manual).

1) What importance does it have if 1024x is by Sense-Up setting unlike LNtech300's use Electric Lens MENU? Which is better and why?

2) What importance does it have if it's on-CCD long exposure or multiple summing of medium-time exposures? Which is better and why?

3) Regarding Lntech 300, when Electric Lens is put on x1024 do you use AGC on Low or Off?

4) Lntech300 does not modify exposure duration according to the scene it detects and it keeps it fixed by the user (e.g. you set EL to x1024 and the camera exposes for x256,etc.)?


Pls excuse my lack of technical knowledge.


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ccs_hello
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/03/04

Re: 17 sec (x1024) Camera Sony 960h Exview HAD CCD new [Re: Moromete]
      #5668205 - 02/08/13 12:43 AM

(1) AGC is "automatic". The decision logic (brain) of the AGC usually does not work well for extreme low-light situations such as astro applications.

(2) Former has better S/N; latter has more frequent update rate so you see the "gradual picture improvement (up to the max. exposure time window)" except trading off S/N for that.

(3) In that mode, need to set AGC to OFF. In such configuration, the gain is fixed at LOW and is not user adjustable. This is not a good design for astro. We contacted the seller to refer to the mfg. AFAIK, it won't be fixed in the foreseeable future.

(4)For LN300, we figured out the proper configuration to defeat that useless brain.
In many videocams, they have similar stories. That's why I said w/o manual, you are driving in blind. With manual in hand you're betting on (better) luck. Only with the actual unit in front of you, you know you hit a jackpot or yet another dud.

Clear Skies!

ccs_hello


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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: 17 sec (x1024) Camera Sony 960h Exview HAD CCD new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #5668216 - 02/08/13 01:03 AM

Now things are more clear for me.

What happens if you set AGC on Low and E.Lens to x1024 in Lntech300?

Considering you keep AGC on Off on Lntech300 and E.Lens to x1024, isn't Samsung SCB2000 a better camera for astro (even with x512)? Will the SCB2000 show a little more on DSOs than Lntech300 (with x1024 and AGC Off) if you set AGC on Low and SenseUp to x512 on Samsung? Or is the same or worse?

I have no experience with either camera.


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ccs_hello
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/03/04

Re: 17 sec (x1024) Camera Sony 960h Exview HAD CCD new [Re: Moromete]
      #5668227 - 02/08/13 01:23 AM

When LNtech300 is set in E.Lens mode, AGC must be set to OFF. If set to any other value, the E.Lens value is no longer correct. I.e., the brain overrides you.

E.g., Low, Med, High, etc. are all relative terms, and different brand/models pick their own numbers. Matt had probed the I2C setting on Ln300's A/D AFE to know the actual gain setting. (OFF is not zero but few dB gain, fixed.)

For Samsung SDC435, I don't remember.

Anyway, 1024x gives you an honest double amount time to collect double amount of photons for a better S (in S/N) to begin with. While Gain is analog signal amplification (which amplifies CCD noise and adds amplifier noise from itself as well).

If you are from a classic astroimager background, I'd guess you (most of them) will pick long exposure (unless bad tracking, bad seeing, bad light pollution) but also have to offset that with longer exposure == more thermal noise from sensor internally generated heat.

There is no perfect solution. BTW, SDC435 is using fine reso CCD, while LNtech300 is using the super-fine reso CCD. I.e., less pixel area to capture photon flux.
Also do not forget both do in-camera DSP post-processing.

If you ask me for my personal $0.02 view, I'd vote for SDC435 just for myself being classic.
If money is tight, go with LN300.

Clear Skies!

ccs_hello


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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: 17 sec (x1024) Camera Sony 960h Exview HAD CCD [Re: ccs_hello]
      #5670538 - 02/09/13 11:18 AM

Thx for clarifying things.

The only thing I haven't understood is if Samsung can be used with AGC Low and SenseUp x512 and if it shows at least the detail on DSOs like LNTECH300 with AGC Off and SenseUp x1024.

Personally, if noise increases just a little, I prefer AGC On and shorter integration times.

I think it's boring to use a Mallincam with minutes long exposures and wait minutes to see each DSO without speaking about tracking/autoguiding.


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mclewis1
Thread Killer
*****

Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
Re: 17 sec (x1024) Camera Sony 960h Exview HAD CCD new [Re: Moromete]
      #5670931 - 02/09/13 03:45 PM

The Samsungs work well on the brighter DSOs when used with fast optics. It's also important to remove that built in IR filter. They also do a good job on solar system objects, and to my eye they're better on these objects than the Mallincams.

Spending $100-120 on a basic Samsung and some accessories should be considered an investment in video experience and you get an effective solar system camera in the deal as well. It will however usually leave you wanting a more sensitive longer exposure camera with a wider fov ... which is tough on the budget. Another use for the Samsung camera when you have a more sensitive camera is as a wide field finder. Adding a small C mount lens or using a modified finder scope will get you useful wide field views ... and this is one use where shorter exposure/integration times are a benefit.

The downsides to the Samsungs are:
- smaller sensor, the 1/3" or 6mm sensors have a smaller fov than the 1/2" 8mm sensors in the more expensive cameras
- non intuitive menu system - you'll probably find the menu system very strange at first and it does take practice to get used to it.
- noisy images when using 8 second (512x) exposure/integration times.
- lack of sensitivity and capability to go beyond the 512x integration which limits the number of objects you can effectively view.
- the need to do a little internal work yourself (removal of the IR filter, and possibly adding a home made remote control box for the OSD buttons).

Purpose built astro video cameras don't require any internal "tinkering" and offer more sensitivity and longer exposure/integration times but cost quite a bit more to get into.

So these little inexpensive security cameras are not for everyone but IMHO they can make an effective introduction to the astro video world for many folks.


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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: 17 sec (x1024) Camera Sony 960h Exview HAD CCD new [Re: mclewis1]
      #5671677 - 02/10/13 12:38 AM

How do you use such a CCTV as an autoguider with a CG5-GT?

What cables/software/parts are needed with a PC?

How usefull is a CCTV like Samsung or Lntech as an autoguider compared to a Lacerta M-Gen or anything similar as performance?

I have a 50mm F1.4 C-Mount lens from a Bresser 5x50 Night Vision device and a Canon 250mm F5.6 lens for my DSLR.
Can I guide well an 1000mm scope with a Samsung/Lntech + 50mm F1.4 lens or only with the Canon 250mm(I've found an adapter from Canon to C-Mount)?

If such questions were answered elsewhere, please excuse me but I found such answers.


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ccs_hello
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/03/04

Re: 17 sec (x1024) Camera Sony 960h Exview HAD CCD new [Re: Moromete]
      #5671953 - 02/10/13 08:19 AM

Autoguding thread here in CloudyNights V&EAA subforum.

In summary, the answer is "maybe". Not as good as using CCD imager direct-feed to a PC.

P.S. may I suggest to start a new thread on a new topic

Clear Skies!

ccs_hello


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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: 17 sec (x1024) Camera Sony 960h Exview HAD CCD new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #5675199 - 02/12/13 03:19 AM

Thx.

So I have to try and see how it works. Problem is I don't know how to connect the PC to CG5-GT mount for guiding with CCTV (I have a frame grabber), respectively what cables are needed and where to put them, in CG5 autoguider port or hand controller.

P.S. Sorry, you are right. Oh, the skies are not clear at all for almost 2 months!


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