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Equipment Discussions >> Video and Electronically Assisted Astronomy

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Lorence
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/15/08

Re: Interested in video astronomy - what equipment? new [Re: a__l]
      #5672264 - 02/10/13 12:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:


To make a comparison between an Xtreme and a Samsung serves no purpose other than to fuel the endless speculation around here. Mallincams are in a league by themselves.




No speculations. I want to know the true advantage.





What part of this did you have trouble understanding?

As well as the Peltier cooling Rock uses research grade CCD's in his cameras. Those facts aren't evident in the numbers. Neither is the Hyper circuitry that allows exposures up to 1 hr and forty minutes.

I used a few off the shelf security cameras before buying the Mallincams. Those cameras use standard grade CCD's. When sense up was at maximum they showed as many hot pixels as stars. For some reason that fact doesn't show up in the numbers.


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mattflastro
Vendor - Astrovideo Systems


Reged: 07/31/09

Loc: Brevard County , FL
Re: Interested in video astronomy - what equipment? new [Re: Lorence]
      #5672332 - 02/10/13 12:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


To make a comparison between an Xtreme and a Samsung serves no purpose other than to fuel the endless speculation around here. Mallincams are in a league by themselves.




No speculations. I want to know the true advantage.





What part of this did you have trouble understanding?

As well as the Peltier cooling Rock uses research grade CCD's in his cameras. Those facts aren't evident in the numbers. Neither is the Hyper circuitry that allows exposures up to 1 hr and forty minutes.

I used a few off the shelf security cameras before buying the Mallincams. Those cameras use standard grade CCD's. When sense up was at maximum they showed as many hot pixels as stars. For some reason that fact doesn't show up in the numbers.



I hope you are aware of the fact that Sony DOES NOT sell "research grade" or "class 0" or whatever your favorite designation is.
All those classes/grades are at best cherry picking by either the component distributor or the camera maker .
They represent little more than a name without clearly defined and published specifications .
There is no published information of what is "research grade" or "class 0" as far as Sony CCD's in these cams are concerned.
Does it mean 0 bright pixels? 0 dead pixels? 0 column defects? 0 zones? A certain threshold for dark current? Deep mystery.
Some ccd makers did publish such numbers and specs. But AFAIK not Sony, please correct me if I'm wrong and accept my apology.
Since you speak so highly of these , I was hoping you might have a source to quote with numbers attached to these names? That would put the question to rest better than insulting the OP , not to mention it would show better manners.


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mclewis1
Thread Killer
*****

Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
Re: Interested in video astronomy - what equipment? new [Re: mattflastro]
      #5672396 - 02/10/13 01:46 PM

Rock does describe what he defines as a class 0 and class 1 sensors. I believe he only ships class 1 by default and for an extra price will "cherry pick" a "class 0". From what I've seen his "class 0" sensors have 0 hot pixels, very limited warm pixels, sometimes an increase in sensitivity and something I'll call "smoothness". I personally don't know how to describe the "smoothness" factor but the images with the "class 0" seem to have an overall smoother appearance.

He's used "research grade" to describe the electronics he builds and the sensor in the Mallincam Universe which he identifies as a ICX413AQS-0.

I know Rock has a good relationship with his Sony sensor source and is very plugged into what Sony is doing. For example that sensor in the Universe is a very limited supply item and is the limiting factor in the availability of the camera. This has translated into something like less than 50 cameras being made available.

If anyone was really interested in exactly what those terms mean with respect to a specific camera I would ask Rock directly. Relying on any previous comments is unfortunately usually a recipe for an argument or miss understanding.


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mattflastro
Vendor - Astrovideo Systems


Reged: 07/31/09

Loc: Brevard County , FL
Re: Interested in video astronomy - what equipment? new [Re: mclewis1]
      #5672476 - 02/10/13 02:34 PM

Quote:

Rock does describe what he defines as a class 0 and class 1 sensors. I believe he only ships class 1 by default and for an extra price will "cherry pick" a "class 0". From what I've seen his "class 0" sensors have 0 hot pixels, very limited warm pixels, sometimes an increase in sensitivity and something I'll call "smoothness". I personally don't know how to describe the "smoothness" factor but the images with the "class 0" seem to have an overall smoother appearance.

He's used "research grade" to describe the electronics he builds and the sensor in the Mallincam Universe which he identifies as a ICX413AQS-0.

I know Rock has a good relationship with his Sony sensor source and is very plugged into what Sony is doing. For example that sensor in the Universe is a very limited supply item and is the limiting factor in the availability of the camera. This has translated into something like less than 50 cameras being made available.

If anyone was really interested in exactly what those terms mean with respect to a specific camera I would ask Rock directly. Relying on any previous comments is unfortunately usually a recipe for an argument or miss understanding.



Not criticizing any vendor here but the way to avoid confusion is NOT to require people to talk to the vendor in private.
Industry standard in electronics has been to publish specifications with clearly defined and explained test conditions, circuits and measurement methods .
This has been the standard for good reason, precisely to AVOID confusion and misinformaiton and to insure repeatability and reproducibility of tests .
Relying on private communications in secret with each customer individually is the _unreliable_ part, because each (mis)understands things differently , peer review is missing , measurements couldn't be duplicated , etc .
Statements (or half statements) can't be verified since they're only incompletely explained at best.
Not a good way to convey accurate and complete information .
Just to use the alleged class 0 and 1 ccd's as an example, let's assume we all were firmly convinced there were 0 hot pixels in a class 0 CCD as defined by vendor X.
Now the question is what does one mean by hot pixel?
Is it a pixel that completely fills the well with dark noise at the end of integration ?
OR is it any pixel that exceeds a certain threshold in dark noise or dark current ?
Oh and by the way, what is the amount of TIME for this dark noise to accumulate ?
Obviously if I measure for a certain amount of time and you measure for another integration period, my hot pixels will be different from yours. Same CCD, just change the integration interval for the hot pixel measurement and voila, you can change the sensor class . Shorter integration, fewer hot pixels, (or pixels that are less hot depending on definition of hot) therefore a class X becomes class X-1 or X-2 or even 0 .
Oh, also what is the TEMPERATURE used for this test?
OR does a hot pixel mean a pixel that is stuck to max value even for the shortest exposure , regardless of time, temperature , etc?
Obviously your test conditions being different than mine (and not published) , I could make any claims I wanted by adjusting my secret measurement conditions and definitions and you could make the opposite claims and we'd both be right in our own narrow ways but argue forever .
What would customers believe? They'd have only 2 choices, blind faith or skepticism .
Why not clarify the issue the standard way in electronics engineering , by having clearly defined specifications including test conditions?
That has been the standard for many decades, and please show me any electronics designer who buys parts which are not specified completely by the manufacturer .
Engineers want to see not only the test results, they want to see the test setup, conditions, methods, and the stastistic results. Standard deviations of measurements , tolerances , variation graphs etc.
No engineer designs parts into a product because the vendor holds his hand and assures him orally of this and that . Engineers specify parts to be purchased based on quality control criteria , written specifications , which also constitute the basis for parts rejection criteria . Not vendor sweet talk .


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a__l
professor emeritus


Reged: 11/24/07

Re: Interested in video astronomy - what equipment? new [Re: mattflastro]
      #5672567 - 02/10/13 03:38 PM

Quote:


The mistake is that you trust the lux specifications from vendors.
They are bogus, first of all due to the fact that there is no standard lux or sensitivity test , no organization that measures all cameras , sets standards or validates vendor claims as far as lowest light long exposure sensitivity.
Each vendor defines their equipment sensitivity whichever way they want , then proceed to not disclose the measurement conditions and claim all sorts of meaningless numbers. You are simply not comparing apples to apples . You are more like comparing pigs in a poke .
Somewhat akin to the Strehl race of a few years ago between various opticians claiming knife edge test measurements of 0.99995 etc.
People were real unhappy that they got a bad mirror with a Strehl of only 0.94 !
I feel the claimed most sensitive lux value (although I could be wrong since I did not take the time for any calculations ) is so low the CCD would have to operate in individual photon counting mode , which is silly (meaning IMPOSSIBLE with a regular Sony CCD ) .
I don't say this as vendor bashing, please correct me with actual test conditions and numbers if anyone has actually measurement confirmation for the sensitivity for these cameras. I'd be happy to learn something new .
The specifications from Sony for the various CCD's used in the Samsung , Mallincam and others mostly don't differ by orders of magnitude. They differ by a LITTLE compared to the huge million fold improvement claimed by some cameras. No camera has gain in the millions , so view it just as marketing claims . Look up images taken with the various cameras, go to Nightskies network and see how they behave in real time , etc. Then you will be able to make an educated comparison. Not by silly misleading published numbers.




Not fully agree.
Lux refers to the International System of Units (SI) and standards (ANSI FL1-2009?)
The Strehl - no.
Standards are needed to compare the different measurements.
There independent measurements (approximate information):
0,0003 Lux moonless night sky
0,01 Lux quarter moon
0,27 Lux full moon in a clear sky
100 Lux very overcast day, etc.


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ccs_hello
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/03/04

Re: Interested in video astronomy - what equipment? new [Re: a__l]
      #5672645 - 02/10/13 04:27 PM

My .02

As I mentioned in serveral posts in the past:

1. SONY Corp, Semiconductor division, does not openly sell pre-graded image sensors even to large cam/videocam/DSLR mfgs. Let along a tiny mfg.
Re: Research grade, that's out of character for SONY.

2. It does not means a downstream cam/videocam/DSLR mfg buy a batch then perform internal grading. Sometimes the top-tier mfgs sell back the ones they don't want to further downstream (smaller) cam mfgs.

3. Re: so claimed special packaging on ICX413, I am extremely skeptical. I know SONY quite well. Many, many years ago, I even visited their Central Lab as well as the close-guarded CCD fab. BTW, I even have their very early CCD Databook (printed version, PDF has not been invented. Some can even burst today's so-called patents. The old data already showed how the tricks were done!)

Since some of you already have that cam, why don't just take a front shot of the chip from the cam's opening and post a picture?

4. Videocam's Lux rating is totally useless. Don't waste time on it.

Clear Skies!

ccs_hello


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mclewis1
Thread Killer
*****

Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
Re: Interested in video astronomy - what equipment? [Re: mattflastro]
      #5672691 - 02/10/13 04:54 PM

Matt,

I agree with what you've posted. I'm not some Rock Mallin cheer leader but after watching him for a number of years and participating in the Yahoo group later on (and then also becoming a Mallincam customer) I'll offer a few observations.

In general Rock seems to prefer to design, build, sell, and use his video cameras rather than market them. He really lacks any visible product/lifecycle management (it might exist to some degree but isn't very visible). He seems to prefer to discuss the technology of his cameras rather than formally document many aspects (there's some real necessity here as many of his competitors would love to produce a similar product). The unfortunate result of this is that he's had many of the same conversations over and over again (for folks who haven't used the search capability ... lol). He was also very active on many of the sci.astro forums over the years, and some of this activity resulted in some really nasty flame wars ... but there isn't much about video technology that he doesn't know.

He is (as you've found out) very protective of his products and rightfully very proud of them. I believe he truly doesn't like to take an adversarial position but it seems that language and many folk's lack of technology understanding conspires to make some of the conversations difficult ... even when he's talking to folks who do have that background knowledge.

I've found that Rock remains available to answer just about any kind of question (via email, phone, or group posting), but his website only provides basic information so it can be a bit difficult to do your own research there. Reading through the old posts in the Yahoo group does also provide a wealth of information but there's a lot of "noise" covering up many of the nuggets of real in depth knowledge. His cameras are second to none and just about sell themselves but if you want some really in depth technical information you kinda have to work at it a bit.

It's not the way other folks might do it if they were in charge but I guess it is what it is.


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mattflastro
Vendor - Astrovideo Systems


Reged: 07/31/09

Loc: Brevard County , FL
Re: Interested in video astronomy - what equipment? new [Re: mclewis1]
      #5672732 - 02/10/13 05:28 PM

just to clarify, I never doubt the cameras are good. My comments are only directed to the misunderstanding of so called "specifications" and the attempt to compare products based on said specifications which invariably fail due to lack of standards and due to specifications ebing totally imcomplete. As ccs_hello said, they're exactly useless.

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a__l
professor emeritus


Reged: 11/24/07

Re: Interested in video astronomy - what equipment? new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #5673451 - 02/11/13 03:12 AM

Quote:


4. Videocam's Lux rating is totally useless. Don't waste time on it.





Ok.


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mallin
Vendor - Mallincam Video


Reged: 01/27/11

Loc: Ontario Canada
Re: Interested in video astronomy - what equipment? new [Re: mattflastro]
      #5673546 - 02/11/13 06:56 AM

Matt,

Sony does have some research grade sensors available you just need to know who to deal with at Sony and their various distributors. They must be ordered through them.

Your statement is not entirely correct. I have spoken with and dealt with the master distributor for them and yes, they can get class 0 sensor. Oh, by the way,
let's clarify a few things here which you fail miserably at:

- There is no such thing as a class 0, class 1, class 2, class 3 etc in video ccd sensor. It is grade A, Grade B, Grade C etc. So, with astronomy related terminology, this translate to class 0, class 1, class 2 etc. We (MallinCam) stand correct on our claims for astronomical purpose not security type cameras. Huge difference. I am amazed that with all your claims and taking the time to slam down the MallinCam (you must hate Canadians) that you never stopped to think for a minute about such classification of true VIDEO ccd sensor. Not imager sensors.

Also, International agreements on sensor classification:

International Agreement is: 10 hot pixels or less at 2 seconds exposure equal class 1, with some column defect.

-MallinCam strict specification: 5 hot pixels or less for the same amount of exposure with ZERO column defect.

International Agreement on Class 0: 5 hot pixels or less at 2 seconds exposure with zero defect column.

- MallinCam Strict in lab specification: 3 hot pixels or less with ZERO column defect.

Don't ask me to tell you where I got these figures, Look it up. Look at popular specs of of sensors offered by various ccd imagers companies. I have charts here from Sony and other companies at hand to base ourselves on our method of offering the finest to any one interested in a MallinCam Video CD camera and we test every sensor before they go into a camera. Something you certainly do not do

We have a link posted on our website about research on ccd cameras , cooling etc. We are transparent in our camera for astronomical OBSERVATION. You fail short to make the difference between a astronomical imager and a live video ccd camera which is made to be a LIVE OBSERVING device, not a imager. Two complete different worlds. I stand correct about video ccd and my goal is for ccd Live Video Observation of Astronomical Targets, not imaging. It is clearly indicated on our website. We do this for advancement of astronomy not money. That too is indicated at the bottom of the page at:

http://mallincam.tripod.com/

It clearly states:

HANDCRAFTED IN CANADA FOR
THE ADVANCEMENT OF ASTRONOMY
NOT MONEY BY:



There is a section from the MallinCam Website that clearly show How It Is Made at:

http://mallincam.tripod.com/id22.html

We pay big bucks extra to bring in our sensors from Taiwan, the master distributor for Sony in which are hand delivered as seen in the link above. We are TRANSPARENT into our claims. We hand pick every ccd sensors in each and every cameras. Each camera is burnt-in for a period of 24 hours to ensure 110% quality using nothing but the best in the industry such as grade 1 electronics components.

It even shows that OUR SENORS are in fact class 0, class 1 etc because we order them through a shipper who offers manual inspection to avoid any X-RAY damages and exposure to extreme cosmic rays. It is shown on the website at:

http://mallincam.tripod.com/id22.html

Rock Mallin
MallinCam

PS: Why can't you show your professionalism if you have any and stop slamming down others. Your behavior is obviously questionable in every post on Cloudy Nights and elsewhere. Can we talks live video astronomy instead?


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mallin
Vendor - Mallincam Video


Reged: 01/27/11

Loc: Ontario Canada
Re: Interested in video astronomy - what equipment? new [Re: a__l]
      #5673552 - 02/11/13 07:04 AM

Hi A___L,

You are correct. Therefore some basic LUX rating can be inaccurate due to optical figures used among other techniques.
We use the actual output of the ccd sensor to determine when the sensor does detect photons and translate this to voltage. We make sure we use our LUX rating based on CCD sensor registration among other specific scientific way ways as determined by the International System of Units (SI) and standards (ANSI FL1-2009) and other manufacturers of video ccd camera. There is a lot more to it than LUX. Electronics of the camera is equally important to the final LUX ratings.

Regards,
Rock Mallin
MallinCam


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mpgxsvcd
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/21/11

Loc: Raleigh, North Carolina
Re: Interested in video astronomy - what equipment? new [Re: mallin]
      #5673633 - 02/11/13 08:43 AM

Rock,

I really appreciate the fact that you share your knowledge with others.

I am not sure that I fully understand "The difference between a astronomical imager and a live video ccd camera which is made to be a LIVE OBSERVING device, not a imager". Could you explain in your own words exactly what the difference is?

For example if I use the live view of a camera to output to a monitor, isn't it the same thing as using a dedicated "video camera"? In fact there is one camera(Olympus OMD EM5) that even allows you to manually set the update interval of the live view like the Mallincam.

Isn't this the same thing or am I missing something?


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mattflastro
Vendor - Astrovideo Systems


Reged: 07/31/09

Loc: Brevard County , FL
Re: Interested in video astronomy - what equipment? new [Re: mallin]
      #5673706 - 02/11/13 09:46 AM

Quote:


Also, International agreements on sensor classification:
Rock Mallin
MallinCam





Please post a link to such "International agreements on sensor classification" . It would serve better to educate this forum than just vague assertions .


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mattflastro
Vendor - Astrovideo Systems


Reged: 07/31/09

Loc: Brevard County , FL
Re: Interested in video astronomy - what equipment? new [Re: mallin]
      #5673714 - 02/11/13 09:53 AM

Quote:

Matt,

Sony does have some research grade sensors available you just need to know who to deal with at Sony and their various distributors. They must be ordered through them.

Your statement is not entirely correct. I have spoken with and dealt with the master distributor for them and yes, they can get class 0 sensor.
Rock Mallin
MallinCam




Thank you for correcting my mistake. I now understand that Sony must be highly motivated to sell research grade sensors to a buyer who purchases about a couple hundred regular CCD's per year . That's what, $2,000 worth of ccd's from Sony per year . I am sure now and thanks again for pointing this out that for this amount of money Sony will make research grade or grade 0 or class a or whatever in the amount of 2 to 3 units per year for a special buyer. All one has to do is know the distributors. Makes sense .


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mattflastro
Vendor - Astrovideo Systems


Reged: 07/31/09

Loc: Brevard County , FL
Re: Interested in video astronomy - what equipment? new [Re: mallin]
      #5673749 - 02/11/13 10:11 AM

Quote:

Matt,

Sony does have some research grade sensors available you just need to know who to deal with at Sony and their various distributors. They must be ordered through them.

Your statement is not entirely correct. I have spoken with and dealt with the master distributor for them and yes, they can get class 0 sensor.
Oh, by the way,
let's clarify a few things here which you fail miserably at:

- There is no such thing as a class 0, class 1, class 2, class 3 etc in video ccd sensor.
...
Also, International agreements on sensor classification:

International Agreement is: 10 hot pixels or less at 2 seconds exposure equal class 1, with some column defect.

-MallinCam strict specification: 5 hot pixels or less for the same amount of exposure with ZERO column defect.

International Agreement on Class 0: 5 hot pixels or less at 2 seconds exposure with zero defect column.

- MallinCam Strict in lab specification: 3 hot pixels or less with ZERO column defect.
...
We hand pick every ccd sensors in each and every cameras.
...
It even shows that OUR SENORS are in fact class 0, class 1 etc because we order them through a shipper who offers manual inspection to avoid any X-RAY damages and exposure to extreme cosmic rays. It is shown on the website at:

http://mallincam.tripod.com/id22.html

Rock Mallin
MallinCam





Let me see if I understood correctly what you just wrote:
- you buy research grade ccd's from Sony or their distributors, said ccd sensors being class 0.
- I failed miserably to understand that Sony class 0 ccd's don't exist (I thought that's exactly what I claimed, they don't exist, I don't see my failure ). Although you do claim you buy class 0 ???
- you have to hand pick your class 0 sensors from all the sensors you purchase , based on some criteria you set yourself , although you said you buy them as research grade or class 0 which you said doesn't exist???
- but although you hand pick them as class 0, you also bought them as class 0 because you know the disty ???
- you show how it's made on your website, where it shows a guy with a Dremel tool grinding/handcrafting one piece at a time on a dirty workbench corner some precision optics.
- the proof that you buy grade 0 CCD's is an illegible DHL shipping label on your website .
I am sorry if I seem confused, I tried my best to understand what you meant , let me know please if I succeeded.


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mattflastro
Vendor - Astrovideo Systems


Reged: 07/31/09

Loc: Brevard County , FL
Re: Interested in video astronomy - what equipment? new [Re: mallin]
      #5673775 - 02/11/13 10:24 AM

Quote:

Also, International agreements on sensor classification:

International Agreement is: 10 hot pixels or less at 2 seconds exposure equal class 1, with some column defect.

-MallinCam strict specification: 5 hot pixels or less for the same amount of exposure with ZERO column defect.

International Agreement on Class 0: 5 hot pixels or less at 2 seconds exposure with zero defect column.

- MallinCam Strict in lab specification: 3 hot pixels or less with ZERO column defect.
Rock Mallin
MallinCam




See now, you just proved my point about meaningless vague incomplete specifications .
Your X number of hot pixels at 2 seconds integration sounds great . But these numbers are meaningless due to :
- testing at different temperatures changes everything. You didn't specify the testing temperature.Is it 18C , is it 25C ? That difference more than doubles the dark current .
- what's the threshold at which a pixel is declared "hot". Is it hot when the well is filled 100% with dark current? Is it hot when it's filled at 90% ? When it's more than 3 sigma over other pixel values? What do you call a hot pixel in your own test which you just said is different from other vendors or alleged standards? Without explaining what you call a hot pixel, these claims are meaningless.
Also, the original thread was not meant to focus on these details but on the much simpler question of how could a camera in general , Mallincam was not mentioned , claim a million fold improvement in ccd sensitivity . Let's please stick to the original topic and please do not continue with attacking and insulting people who ask questions . Nobody called _you_ unprofessional , all people did was ask questions.


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dragonslayer1
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 02/25/12

Loc: SLC, UT
Re: Interested in video astronomy - what equipment? new [Re: mattflastro]
      #5673829 - 02/11/13 11:02 AM

Matt, just give it a rest LOL. I have no dog in this fight but it seems you always come out on the losing every time this happens... Be happy):(
Shalom Kasey


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mallin
Vendor - Mallincam Video


Reged: 01/27/11

Loc: Ontario Canada
Re: Interested in video astronomy - what equipment? new [Re: mattflastro]
      #5673955 - 02/11/13 12:20 PM

Matt,

Please don't play with words here ok? Don't patronize me. Your chewing against something you won't be able to handle.

End of conversation with you. Once again you demonstrate the lack of professionalism and knowledge in video ccd cameras for astronomical observation.

Matt, please, take the time re-read my post. I did not made the "TESTAMENT" that I buy ONLY scientific sensors. Go back and read my post to you. I clearly state (again) that Sony *does* make some scientific type grade sensors. You are obviously very limited in getting good contact with manufacturers and the industry. My post was direct at Sony making high grade and scientific type sensors. Go back and read again.

Why twist me wordings, Matt?

Man, Its got be a Canadian thing!
I am done lowering myself to your level, Matt. You discourage people in general in getting into live video ccd observation. You are not doing a favor to the astronomical industry and people who need live video ccd camera and related equipment to pursue their observing program. Other companies will be affected by your weak post infested with hatred against anyone who have an interest in live video observation, those who have visual problems and need video ccd to continue their live observations.

Rock Mallin


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mallin
Vendor - Mallincam Video


Reged: 01/27/11

Loc: Ontario Canada
Re: Interested in video astronomy - what equipment? new [Re: mpgxsvcd]
      #5673992 - 02/11/13 12:40 PM

Hi Travis,

A live video ccd is design and made to show the brightest dimmest object with the least amount of exposure live on a monitor for visual observation. A imager is made to take pictures. Huge difference.

Video has 30 FPS on average (29.970) and shows a image with some post processing bult in the camera to enhance the live image allowing a user to visually observe a faint target. They are not design to take pictures.

A imager will have some live monitoring but it lacks serious sensitivity. A video ccd camera will require a frame grabber to view live images on a computer. On a standard monitor, such device is not required.

For example, a MallinCam Xtreme will show images in 7 to 18 seconds with result that will rival images taken as a imager at 2 to 5 minutes exposure. That's what video ccd is for. Live visual observation with least amount of exposure. This translate in low periodic error showing up in a live image. Also a video ccd camera works at 100 duty cycle. a imager only works while taking a exposure. Electronics are not the same, sensors are not the same either. Image quality are good but again they are made for live observation not made to compete against high end ccd imagers.

MallinCam use CMYG type sensor instead of RGB. That's an increase in sensitivity above any RGB sensor. Also the mv output is higher on a video ccd sensor. Pixels are far bigger than a imager thus collecting more light. The bigger the pixels the brighter the image will be and the shorter the exposure needs to be. Video ccd camera such as the MallinCam is far and beyond more sensitive than any other imager out there for a reason: Live observing on a monitor with a computer and frame grabber or without any computer an frame grabber. Versatility is key here in live video ccd camera.

Hope this help understanding some basic differences.

Kindest Regards,
Rock Mallin


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mpgxsvcd
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/21/11

Loc: Raleigh, North Carolina
Re: Interested in video astronomy - what equipment? new [Re: mallin]
      #5674041 - 02/11/13 01:09 PM

Rock,

I greatly appreciate your response. However, with all due respect, I donít know if I agree with it. I donít see the difference at all between plugging the monitor into the camera or plugging it into the Malincam. The camera may be designed to take good pictures but it also has live view output exactly like the Malincam does.

I fully understand that the Mallincamís sensitivity is greater. However, I do question how much greater it really is. I am not basing that opinion on what I saw on Saturday at all. I fully admit that we set it up wrong and were not using it to its full potential. I am basing it on other images and integration times that everyone else has posted and my own images.

Is there any conversion between LUX and ISO? No one ever gives both measurements for a device.

I really want to complete a test between my new camera(Panasonic GH3) that I get back on Wednesday and the Extreme that Tony has. I really want to see the difference in sensitivity between the two on the exact same scope and outputting to the same monitor.

The field of views wonít be the exact same but my camera has a 2x loss-less crop mode that will get them to be at least similar. The extreme has a 1/2" chip in it, right? That is a 5.33x crop factor where mine is a 4x in crop mode.

Have you ever done a similar test with 1:1 results that you can show us?

What would be really cool is to do a NSN broadcast where we show the objects with the camera first and then switch to the Mallincam and show the same things. It appears that with Tonyís equipment and a hotspot we could do just that even from a semi dark location.

My goal is to validate your claim that "A MallinCam Xtreme will show images in 7 to 18 seconds with result that will rival images taken as a imager at 2 to 5 minutes exposure."

Edited by mpgxsvcd (02/11/13 01:11 PM)


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