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Brian Albin
Seeker


Reged: 08/22/06

Loc: Western Oregon
Unknown Wall
      #5678611 - 02/13/13 11:44 PM

Between crater Lansberg and Montes Riphaeus, LO 4-125 H3 shows a wall similar in appearance to Rupes Recta. Has this wall been given a name?

(0.7 MB )
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/lunarorbiter/images/preview/4125_h3.jpg

(3.2 MB )
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/lunarorbiter/images/print/4125_h3.jpg


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NeilMac
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 09/25/10

Loc: MedHat, AB, Canada
Re: Unknown Wall new [Re: Brian Albin]
      #5679325 - 02/14/13 12:12 PM

Awesome !!

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Greyhaven
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 05/11/04

Loc: Greater downtown Maine
Re: Unknown Wall new [Re: Brian Albin]
      #5679505 - 02/14/13 01:38 PM

No name given in my Rukl's atlas location would be approx. 26.2w 2.s rukl's chart #42
nice catch
Be Well
Grey


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mikewirths
Vendor-Baja Dark Skies
*****

Reged: 06/16/08

Loc: San Pedro Martir Mexico
Re: Unknown Wall new [Re: Greyhaven]
      #5679600 - 02/14/13 02:20 PM Attachment (26 downloads)

I checked the LAC atlas but it only appears as a wrinkle ridge not a small scarp

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/mapcatalog/LAC/lac76/150dpi.jpg

I imaged this area a little while back it shows pretty well in this cropped image

Maybe Mardi knows the name, should post this on the lunar observing yahoo group or send it to Charles Wood

cool!!

Mike


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mikewirths
Vendor-Baja Dark Skies
*****

Reged: 06/16/08

Loc: San Pedro Martir Mexico
Re: Unknown Wall new [Re: mikewirths]
      #5679824 - 02/14/13 04:21 PM

Brian I posted your observation on the lunar observing yahoo group. Danny Caes could not find any mention that it had a name, and hes the biggest lunar obsessed person that I know of! He thinks the people at the I.A.U should be made aware of this, maybe you will get a scarp named after you!!

Mike


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mikewirths
Vendor-Baja Dark Skies
*****

Reged: 06/16/08

Loc: San Pedro Martir Mexico
Re: Unknown Wall new [Re: mikewirths]
      #5679877 - 02/14/13 04:51 PM

Brian,

Danny has updated the moonwiki site with the un-named scarp with you as its discoverer!!!!

https://the-moon.wikispaces.com/page/diff/Lansberg/407096692

I think I smell an LPOD soon!!

CONGRATS!!

Mike


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Astrojensen
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Unknown Wall new [Re: mikewirths]
      #5680013 - 02/14/13 06:22 PM

Rupes Albin... Does have a good ring to it.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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photonovore
Moonatic
*****

Reged: 12/24/04

Loc: tacoma wa
Re: Unknown Wall new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5680329 - 02/14/13 10:25 PM

No (prior- ) name for this. It's too discreet of a feature--none of the old charts even hint at it. For good reason... i measured the width at the widest point and it's about 250meters on the LO image--that's half the width of the Alpine rille--so pretty much in the no-see-um class. The whole structure appears to be a narrow graben with the northend gaining elevation on the eastern side, enough to cast the floor in shadow... Reason I suspect this is that the north shadowed end and the southern, floor-illuminated end are uniform in width...suggesting similar structure (ie graben rather than an escarpment. To know for sure would take higher rez images than the LO.

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Brian Albin
Seeker


Reged: 08/22/06

Loc: Western Oregon
Re: Unknown Wall new [Re: mikewirths]
      #5680420 - 02/14/13 11:29 PM

Quote:

maybe you will get a scarp named after you!!




I hope not. That would be embarrassing. It's not like I did anything in astronomy.

It is fun though to look at the hi res photos and search for things nobody ever talks about.


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Brian Albin
Seeker


Reged: 08/22/06

Loc: Western Oregon
Re: Unknown Wall new [Re: Brian Albin]
      #5680426 - 02/14/13 11:33 PM

Hi Mardi,
Yes as you say, it may be a ditch instead of a single sided cliff. Yesterday it looked strictly like a cliff to me; today it looks more like a trough.


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Brian Albin
Seeker


Reged: 08/22/06

Loc: Western Oregon
Re: Unknown Wall new [Re: Brian Albin]
      #5680448 - 02/14/13 11:49 PM

Mike, that is a nice photo you made of it.
I have been wanting to ask you: Do you prefer your 18" or your 30" telescope for photographing the moon?


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Greyhaven
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 05/11/04

Loc: Greater downtown Maine
Re: Unknown Wall new [Re: Greyhaven]
      #5683189 - 02/16/13 10:48 AM

Rukl's Atlas does show the object it's just not named.

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mikewirths
Vendor-Baja Dark Skies
*****

Reged: 06/16/08

Loc: San Pedro Martir Mexico
Re: Unknown Wall new [Re: Greyhaven]
      #5684298 - 02/16/13 09:36 PM

Mardi- sounds like a well reasoned interpertation, I just did'nt think my image was high res enough to resolve down to 250M, maybe 300-400M in my best seeing image (not this one).

Brian, I use the 18" for all of my stuff, number one the 30 is onerous to transport and I think I would need almost perfect seeing to outdo the 18". But our region does get low subarcsecond seeing so perhaps one day. The seeing up at the observatory 9km east of us has median 0.45" seeeing.

cheers

Mike


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photonovore
Moonatic
*****

Reged: 12/24/04

Loc: tacoma wa
Re: Unknown Wall new [Re: mikewirths]
      #5684562 - 02/17/13 01:57 AM

Quote:

Mardi- sounds like a well reasoned interpertation, I just did'nt think my image was high res enough to resolve down to 250M, maybe 300-400M in my best seeing image (not this one).

Brian, I use the 18" for all of my stuff, number one the 30 is onerous to transport and I think I would need almost perfect seeing to outdo the 18". But our region does get low subarcsecond seeing so perhaps one day. The seeing up at the observatory 9km east of us has median 0.45" seeeing.

cheers

Mike




Hi Mike, thanks. I didn't measure the rez on your fine image for this task, i used the lopam image of this area--thinking the bigger the better for accuracy.


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Brian Albin
Seeker


Reged: 08/22/06

Loc: Western Oregon
Re: Unknown Wall [Re: mikewirths]
      #5684706 - 02/17/13 07:03 AM

Quote:

I use the 18" for all of my stuff, number one the 30 is onerous to transport and I think I would need almost perfect seeing to outdo the 18".




I see. Thanks, Mike for the information.


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mikewirths
Vendor-Baja Dark Skies
*****

Reged: 06/16/08

Loc: San Pedro Martir Mexico
Re: Unknown Wall [Re: Brian Albin]
      #5698382 - 02/24/13 02:33 PM

Brian, Mardi and all,

After our discussion here I contacted a member of my hometown RASC chapter in Ottawa Ontario. Simon Hanmer is a structural geologist working with the Canadian Geological survey, but besides that he is an avid astronomer and is well loved by our club for the great talks he gives. I directed him to this thread to get his view on the graben structure, this was his response:

"This person has it right on the money, in my opinion ... this is exactly how I saw this feature. Interesting that the development of the shadow - and hence the increased elevation on the east side of the narrow graben - coincides with a slight, but very real change in azimuth of the graben faults. This change will have influenced the local stress field and **could** account for the change in fault behaviour. Remember that fault displacements are 3D, even when we observe the evidence for them in 2D, plus fault motions may vary along the length of the fault. A terrestrial example from your old home serves as an illustration. The topographic expression of the Eardly escarpement on the north side of the Ottawa Valley is clearly shorter in length than the Ottawa Graben that it is part of, and represents a greater uplift than along other parts of the valley fault system. I think we're looking at something similar n the lunar example."

So there you go! Good eyes Mardi

cheers

Mike


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Brian Albin
Seeker


Reged: 08/22/06

Loc: Western Oregon
Re: Unknown Wall [Re: mikewirths]
      #5699215 - 02/25/13 01:24 AM

I did not follow all of that. "a slight, but very real change in azimuth of the graben faults"
Did he mean a change in altitude? The line runs fairly straight; if he meant azimuth, to what was he referring?

Mostly he seems to be saying the darker northern half of the run has an uplifted plateau on the right (east) with a relatively lower plain on the west.
That is how it appears to me as well.
So while it is obviously a graben in it's southern extent, perhaps it is a wall in the northern half after all.
I should like to see it with a different lighting angle. I wish I were cleverer at navigating the orbital photo archive.


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photonovore
Moonatic
*****

Reged: 12/24/04

Loc: tacoma wa
Re: Unknown Wall [Re: Brian Albin]
      #5699730 - 02/25/13 11:50 AM

Quote:

I did not follow all of that. "a slight, but very real change in azimuth of the graben faults"
Did he mean a change in altitude? The line runs fairly straight; if he meant azimuth, to what was he referring?

Mostly he seems to be saying the darker northern half of the run has an uplifted plateau on the right (east) with a relatively lower plain on the west.
That is how it appears to me as well.
So while it is obviously a graben in it's southern extent, perhaps it is a wall in the northern half after all.
I should like to see it with a different lighting angle. I wish I were cleverer at navigating the orbital photo archive.




Azimuth is direction of the feature's trend line on the ground "by compass" so-to-speak. A relatively small but persistent variation often reflects a variation in subsurface composition/structure, which, in turn, can cause variations in the expression of the features visible morphology.

Pictures being worth a thousand words, maybe these will help clarify...





Azimuths shown. "Second" section at top; "right" section at bottom in this LOPAM image.


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Brian Albin
Seeker


Reged: 08/22/06

Loc: Western Oregon
Re: Unknown Wall [Re: photonovore]
      #5700792 - 02/25/13 11:28 PM

Thank you Mardi. Once you draw the arrowed lines on there, I see that the change in direction is greater than I had noticed.

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photonovore
Moonatic
*****

Reged: 12/24/04

Loc: tacoma wa
Re: Unknown Wall new [Re: Brian Albin]
      #5722186 - 03/09/13 12:11 PM

See Friday's LPOD http://lpod.wikispaces.com/March+8%2C+2013 for Chuck Wood's discussion of this specific feature...

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