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Observing >> Deep Sky Observing

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Astrojensen
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Re: Pushing the Limits new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5691484 - 02/20/13 06:26 PM

Actually, given its huge size, NGC 4236 should be visible in 10x50 binoculars. I've yet to do this, though. Conditions must be superb.

I am slowly making a list of galaxies visible (or in some cases, theoretically visible, because I've yet to see them or even hear about observations) in a 10x50 or smaller binocular. It's getting pretty long already. There are some insane challenges on that list! I will of course not include everything. There must be a fair chance to see the object. If it is small, it must be pretty bright or if it is very faint, then it must be large.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Starman1
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Re: Pushing the Limits new [Re: David Knisely]
      #5691501 - 02/20/13 06:38 PM

Quote:

Well, let's see...

1) The horizontal branch of M14--seeing hundreds of stars across the cluster. HB=mag.17.1

Humm... I see many stars in M14 in my 10 inch, but they are probably AGB stars mostly.




Agreed. But when you see literally hundreds of faint stars covering the globular from edge to edge, you know you've reached the HB of the globular.
Quote:


2) Seeing individual stars in NGC206 in M31. There are 6 superimposed stars in the Milky Way. If you see a dozen or more, you're picking up stars in M31. Mags 17.03-17.55

It looks granular in my 14 inch and there are a few stars there, but which are M31 stars and which are not I don't know about.




Use powers over 250X, and if you count more than 6 stars, you are seeing stars in M31. The supergiant O and A stars there are, on average, 2 full magnitudes brighter than most stars in M31, and put off prodigious energies. I and a friend have counted up to 15 stars.
Quote:


3) Seeing the spiral arms in M81

Been there. Done that (in an 8 inch f/7 no less).




Lucky fellow to see such dark skies. It takes me waiting for the galaxy to culminate and a really dark night. The "glow" of the spiral arms is usually there, but seeing the actual arms, I've found, is tough.
Quote:


4) Seeing the spiral arms in NGC2403

Lots of patchy detail in it in my 10 inch, but full arm structure is elusive.




Especially because they are tight in to the core because of our perspective. The oval glow of the arms is always there, but seeing the gaps between the arms and the core is tough.
Quote:


5) Seeing the spiral arms in NGC7331

Done that (in a 10 inch this time).




Yeah, this one is easier. First because of the passage near the zenith, and also because it's far enough away the spiral arms aren't spread out to invisibility. When you can see the 4 companions, the arms are usually there.
Quote:


6) Seeing white swirls inside the Great Red Spot on Jupiter

I don't know about "white swirls", but under good seeing, the interior of the red spot starts to show some arc-like inner detail in my 10 inch. In my 14 inch, the interior structure is unmistakable, although it isn't quite "white".




Agreed. I'm not exactly certain what atmospheric conditions have to pertain in order to see the salmon color of the GRS and see the swirls within as white. Normally, they are just slightly differing shades of gray. But when the color of the GRS is plain as day, the white swirls within (sometimes merely arcs) are visible at >300X.
Quote:


7) Seeing albedo markings on Ganymede

I have seen the "dot" in my 9.25 inch SCT, but much more required my 14 inch Newtonian.




This one depends so heavily on atmosphere, I am not certain of the minimum aperture necessary. I never saw Ganymede as a disk with variegated brightness until experiencing seeing conditions where the planet had no visible scintillation at all for 29 of 30 seconds, allowing me to go to 456X and see a sharply detailed planetary surface.
Quote:


8) Seeing shadows of the festoons on the edge of an EQ Band on Jupiter

You're kidding, right?




Nope. On the same night as mentioned, the gray-green festoons hung out above the ocher-colored EB and were lined with dark edges only on one side. I finally realized that that was because the shadows of the festoons were cast on the clouds below, making the edges of the festoons black on one side. Each festoon looked not just like the typical swirl or arc, but a mottled bunch of cloud, sort of like the center of M42.
It was an uncanny night. I never saw that before and haven't seen it since. Could be I was seeing a darkish chemical in the atmosphere on the downwind side of each festoon instead of a shadow, but the white storms in the depths of the ocher EB did not show that, and some of them were being torn apart and appeared streaked in the downwind direction.
Quote:


9) Seeing 6 distinct galaxies in Hickson 92, aka "Stephan's Qunitet"

Well, four with the 9.25 inch and five with my 14 inch (don't know which is the 6th galaxy unless you want to count the more distant NGC 7320C over four arc minutes to the northeast of NGC 7320).




I am counting 7320C because it is still close, even at 304X. The hardest thing is to split the cores of NGC7318A and B. 7320 is considered to not be a 'true' member of the group (being nearer) while 7320C IS considered a member. Go figure.
Quote:


10) Seeing IC4617 on the outskirts of M13

That one took a 12.5 inch Portaball at the Nebraska Star Party to do, as I failed using my 10 inch. In my 14 inch Newtonian, it was no problem last summer.




It took 12.5" for me to spot this. I looked for it, but never actually found it with my 8" SCT.
Quote:


11) Seeing IC1296 on the outskirts of M57

I have done that with my 10 inch Newtonian, although I don't know about it being on the "outskirts" of the nebula.




Bad choice of words. In same field of view and near the nebula would be a better choice of words. I first spotted it in my 8" SCT. I am not certain what the minimum aperture is.
Here is a GREAT picture:
http://www.starshadows.com/galley/display.cfm?imgID=154

Quote:


12) Seeing the central star in M57

Did that one night from my driveway in my 9.25 inch SCT.




You must have had superb seeing.
Quote:


13) Seeing the G-H1-H2, and I stars in the Trapezium

Nope, not yet, but quite frankly, I haven't had a lot of interest in seeing them.




Well, I've caught the G and H1, but have yet to catch H2 or I. I think it takes superb conditions.
Quote:


14) Seeing the jet in M87

Tried with my 14 inch but failed due to seeing. I will keep trying.




It took me 5 or 6 tries, and I've only seen it once in the 12.5". It was easy in a friend's 28"
Quote:


15) Seeing the "fingers" protruding from NGC5195 (companion of M51)

The "prongs" as I like to call them were not all that hard in my 10 inch one exceptionally dark night, but it does take a really good night to do it. I have had some halfway decent nights where they failed to show up well even in my 14 inch, other than as faint hints of something trailing off to the north of NGC 5195.




Yup. It has to be superbly dark and the galaxy near culmination for me. I'm more interested in seeing the 'arc' around the companion and the dark lane in the bridge.
Quote:


Keep those challenges coming! Clear skies to you.



Most of the objects in the "Aintno" list are a little too faint for we mere mortals. I'm hoping we will compile a good list from posts in this thread.

Edited by Starman1 (02/20/13 06:41 PM)


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David Knisely
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Re: Pushing the Limits new [Re: Starman1]
      #5691557 - 02/20/13 07:07 PM

Starman1 posted:

Quote:

Quote:

8) Seeing shadows of the festoons on the edge of an EQ Band on Jupiter

You're kidding, right?



Nope. On the same night as mentioned, the gray-green festoons hung out above the ocher-colored EB and were lined with dark edges only on one side. I finally realized that that was because the shadows of the festoons were cast on the clouds below, making the edges of the festoons black on one side. Each festoon looked not just like the typical swirl or arc, but a mottled bunch of cloud, sort of like the center of M42.
It was an uncanny night. I never saw that before and haven't seen it since. Could be I was seeing a darkish chemical in the atmosphere on the downwind side of each festoon instead of a shadow, but the white storms in the depths of the ocher EB did not show that, and some of them were being torn apart and appeared streaked in the downwind direction.




I have to take a little issue with the idea of a cloud "shadow". There are small linear bluish/dark grey clouds or features that hug the main belts and festoons, but these are thought to be either "clearings" in the upper cloud deck or actual bluish clouds rather than shadows. With Jupiter, any shadows cast by higher clouds would tend to fall almost directly beneath them when near disk center, so from Earth, they would be difficult to impossible to see since the sun is always behind us when viewing Jupiter. Clear skies to you.


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tnakazon
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Reged: 06/26/10

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Re: Pushing the Limits new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5691580 - 02/20/13 07:27 PM

Quote:

I've not seen NGC 6822 or 4145, but I've seen NGC 4236 a couple of times or three, with my 63mm Zeiss. Usually it's extremely hard and only visible as a very faint, slightly elongated glow (the bulge), but one time I saw it as a huge, very elongated object, one of the biggest near edge-on galaxies I've seen. Truly a fascinating object. That night I saw many, many objects like I've never seen them before or since. The sky was coming alive with galaxies and stuff.

Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark



I saw NGC 4236 just once, at a Star Party in a green zone site. I remember the first time I tried looking for it - it was lower in the horizon and I thought I glimpsed it (the nucleus at least) but as it moved lower down the horizon, it literally disappeared from sight. Determined that I would see it with certainty the next night, I got my telescope set up a few hours earlier this time. Being higher up in the sky, I saw the breadth of the galaxy and yes, it was huge. I was really proud of that sighting because of the ridiculously low surface brightness of this galaxy.

NGC 6822 is lower down the horizon in the Northern Hemisphere, so I can see how it would be extremely difficult to spot from Denmark. I tried and failed to detect it at my orange zone site quite a few times. Only when I went to a blue zone site up in the mountains was I able to see it clearly. NGC 4145 should be relatively easy from your latitude since it would be directly overhead.

I go to Europe once or twice a year on vacation. Looking forward to visiting Denmark (and Copenhagen) soon.


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tnakazon
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Re: Pushing the Limits new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5691601 - 02/20/13 07:40 PM

Quote:

Actually, given its huge size, NGC 4236 should be visible in 10x50 binoculars. I've yet to do this, though. Conditions must be superb.

I am slowly making a list of galaxies visible (or in some cases, theoretically visible, because I've yet to see them or even hear about observations) in a 10x50 or smaller binocular. It's getting pretty long already. There are some insane challenges on that list! I will of course not include everything. There must be a fair chance to see the object. If it is small, it must be pretty bright or if it is very faint, then it must be large.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark



It's fun to try to push a small scope to the limits of its aperture's capabilities (especially with the help of darker skies). I've been doing this with my 3.9" Orion SkyScanner for over 2 years now, and even though I now own bigger 5" & 6" scopes, my 3.9" (100mm) is still my workhorse scope in seeking out new DSO's. My 4.5" Orion StarBlast and 3.1" Orion Short Tube 80 also gets some work in, as well as my 4" Celestron NexStar 102GT (GOTO achromat).

Yup, I always take size and surface brightness into consideration when looking for suitable galaxies as targets for my small scopes.

I've never star-gazed with binoculars, but I do use field glasses occasionally to help point my scope in the right location where the target DSO's are located.


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Starman1
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Re: Pushing the Limits [Re: David Knisely]
      #5691748 - 02/20/13 08:55 PM

Quote:

Starman1 posted:

Quote:

Quote:

8) Seeing shadows of the festoons on the edge of an EQ Band on Jupiter

You're kidding, right?



Nope. On the same night as mentioned, the gray-green festoons hung out above the ocher-colored EB and were lined with dark edges only on one side. I finally realized that that was because the shadows of the festoons were cast on the clouds below, making the edges of the festoons black on one side. Each festoon looked not just like the typical swirl or arc, but a mottled bunch of cloud, sort of like the center of M42.
It was an uncanny night. I never saw that before and haven't seen it since. Could be I was seeing a darkish chemical in the atmosphere on the downwind side of each festoon instead of a shadow, but the white storms in the depths of the ocher EB did not show that, and some of them were being torn apart and appeared streaked in the downwind direction.




I have to take a little issue with the idea of a cloud "shadow". There are small linear bluish/dark grey clouds or features that hug the main belts and festoons, but these are thought to be either "clearings" in the upper cloud deck or actual bluish clouds rather than shadows. With Jupiter, any shadows cast by higher clouds would tend to fall almost directly beneath them when near disk center, so from Earth, they would be difficult to impossible to see since the sun is always behind us when viewing Jupiter. Clear skies to you.




Well, Jupiter was near quadrature, the festoons were obviously "hanging out over the edge" of the EB, which, from reading about it, is a lower cloud bank we see through the "parting" of the whitish higher-altitude cloud banks. The dark shadow was on the edge away from the sun but not on the sunward edge. And the dark edge of each festoon was thicker near the band it extended from and thinner as you went toward the 'tip". I called them festoons, but I think the correct Jupiter term is "projections".
They appear like bluish-green-grey "hooks" that extend out from a bright band into the ocher-colored EBs.
On this night, those "hooks" appeared mottled and a little flocculent and each one of them had a dark edge to one side, the side away from the sun. Like I said, it could be chemical in nature, and it might even be an illusion caused by color differences, but it sure looked like shadows.


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Astrojensen
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Re: Pushing the Limits new [Re: Starman1]
      #5692168 - 02/21/13 03:38 AM

Quote:

It takes me waiting for the [M81] galaxy to culminate and a really dark night. The "glow" of the spiral arms is usually there, but seeing the actual arms, I've found, is tough.




I've seen the brightest part of the eastern arm, the one starting near the two brightest foreground stars inside the disk of the galaxy, in a 6" refractor with binoviewer. It was surprisingly well visible. There are three HII regions in that section of the arm and I think it might be possible to see them in a 12", as they are very compact and have high surface brightness. In my 12" Lightbridge, I can faintly see the arm continue around the galaxy eastward, then north and finally in an elegant curve westward.


Thomas, Denmark


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hbanich
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Re: Pushing the Limits new [Re: J Lowrey]
      #5692980 - 02/21/13 03:48 PM Attachment (15 downloads)

Quote:

Howard,

Could you be more specific on where the knot in M51 is that you are talking about in your post.

Thanks




Hi Jimi,

I've circled it red at the top of the cropped HST image below. I've put more time into trying to detect this little goober than any other detail in M51, and so far no luck!


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Tom Polakis
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Re: Pushing the Limits new [Re: Starman1]
      #5693091 - 02/21/13 04:35 PM

Quote:


Some challenges for the 12.5", with some a LOT easier than others:




Nice list, Don. I'll go back to when I used a 13-inch as my primary scope to compare notes.

Quote:

2) Seeing individual stars in NGC206 in M31. There are 6 superimposed stars in the Milky Way. If you see a dozen or more, you're picking up stars in M31. Mags 17.03-17.55




I know I've seen at least a dozen faint stars in this association, but I didn't realize they were that faint. When I did limiting magnitude checks with my 13-inch, I always stopped at around 17.


Quote:

3) Seeing the spiral arms in M81
4) Seeing the spiral arms in NGC2403
5) Seeing the spiral arms in NGC7331




I remember how jaw dropping it was when I first saw the spiral structure in M81. After I knew what to look for, it was apparent every time in the 13-inch. NGC 2403 shows spiral structure, but its low galactic latitude corrupts the view with a lot of nearby field stars. And here I'm going to admit that I rushed over to Stephan's Quintet too often to really look for spiral structure in NGC 7331.

Quote:

6) Seeing white swirls inside the Great Red Spot on Jupiter
7) Seeing albedo markings on Ganymede
8) Seeing shadows of the festoons on the edge of an EQ Band on Jupiter




Definitely have not seen 6 or 8, but have seen markings on Ganymede with my 10-inch at magnifications approaching 1000x. While it's a rewarding view, I wouldn't claim it's aesthetically pleasing!

Quote:

9) Seeing 6 distinct galaxies in Hickson 92, aka "Stephan's Qunitet"




I have a hard enough time splitting the close pair to see five. Never thought to look for the detached one.

Quote:

10) Seeing IC4617 on the outskirts of M13
11) Seeing IC1296 on the outskirts of M57
12) Seeing the central star in M57




I've seen IC 4617 and the central star in M57 in both my 13-inch and 10-inch scopes, but that galaxy near the Ring has required my 18-inch.


Quote:

13) Seeing the G-H1-H2, and I stars in the Trapezium
14) Seeing the jet in M87
15) Seeing the "fingers" protruding from NGC5195 (companion of M51)





All good suggestions. I will admit that I've had difficulty with M87's jet in my 18-inch, and never saw it in repeated attempts with the 13-inch.


Quote:

My hope is to add to this list to provide some year-round challenges for 10-12"+ apertures.




I'll look through my notes, and come up with some suggestions.

Tom


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LivingNDixie
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Re: Pushing the Limits new [Re: Tom Polakis]
      #5693111 - 02/21/13 04:45 PM

Tom (and others):
How hard are the features on Ganymede?


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Tom Polakis
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Re: Pushing the Limits new [Re: LivingNDixie]
      #5693724 - 02/21/13 10:47 PM

Quote:

Tom (and others):
How hard are the features on Ganymede?




In my case, it's feature, singular. I have seen Galileo Regio, which is the giant, dark albedo feature that occupies the upper right part of the globe in this image.

Galileo Regio

Ganymede gets nearly as large as 2", so the feature is not much less than an arcsecond in size. When the seeing is good, use ludicrous magnification to see it.

WinJUPOS accurately shows which features on Ganymede are visible at any given time.

Tom


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Ptarmigan
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Re: Pushing the Limits new [Re: LivingNDixie]
      #5703812 - 02/27/13 04:33 PM

Quote:

Thomas,
Not to nitpick but hurricanes actually don't purge the atmosphere of moisture after they pass. Been through a couple of hurricanes

But you are right dry skies with low humidity is good though




Hurricanes leave a lot of moisture behind.


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Dave MitskyModerator
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Re: Pushing the Limits new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5704295 - 02/27/13 09:18 PM

Quote:

Actually, given its huge size, NGC 4236 should be visible in 10x50 binoculars. I've yet to do this, though. Conditions must be superb.




FWIW, NGC 4236 isn't mentioned in Phil Harrington's Touring the Universe through Binoculars. Then again, neither are NGC 5866 (M102) and NGC 5907. The only galaxy listed in Draco is NGC 4125. NGC 4236 and NGC 5907 are not included in the Astronomical League's Deep Sky Binocular Program. M102 is listed in the Tougher Messier Objects category of the Astronomical League's Binocular Messier Program Appendix B for 56 to 80mm binoculars.

Dave Mitsky


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azure1961p
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Re: Pushing the Limits new [Re: Starman1]
      #5704350 - 02/27/13 09:48 PM

Don,
I'm utterly convinced that under 8/10 or better sky's and 500x Ganymede would be terrific in your scope. I don't think its a matter of possibility but of just how much detail. I wouldn't rule out 600x or more on the best nights as its very very small size seems to favor the enlargement typically reserved for diffraction pattern study. I know Norme with his 6" Mak found 80x per inch effective even though its be horrible on Jupiter itself. Spreading the light out of the tiny moon even beyond conventional experience seems to work well. 450x is great in my 8" but the bother of getting seeing to allow this in Connecticut is tough. Id like to try Norm 80x per inch suggestion but this winter never got past 7/10. I've found that while it had shown it is extraordinarily demanding. I get no lesser seeing compromises - its simply blank.

Preston, - harder than mars but easier than Pluto.



Pete

Edited by azure1961p (02/27/13 10:04 PM)


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tnakazon
sage


Reged: 06/26/10

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Re: Pushing the Limits new [Re: Dave Mitsky]
      #5706524 - 03/01/13 01:38 AM

Quote:

FWIW, NGC 4236 isn't mentioned in Phil Harrington's Touring the Universe through Binoculars. Then again, neither are NGC 5866 (M102) and NGC 5907. The only galaxy listed in Draco is NGC 4125. NGC 4236 and NGC 5907 are not included in the Astronomical League's Deep Sky Binocular Program. M102 is listed in the Tougher Messier Objects category of the Astronomical League's Binocular Messier Program Appendix B for 56 to 80mm binoculars.

Dave Mitsky



NGC 4236 and NGC 5907 are tough objects in a small telescope, especially 4236. Even though I don't use binoculars, I don't see them as binocular objects. Now NGC 5866 is easier to see using a small telescope in light-polluted conditions, so this would be more suitable for binoculars.


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Matt Lindsey
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Re: Pushing the Limits new [Re: hbanich]
      #5709496 - 03/02/13 08:14 PM

Wait a minute Howard. Did you say detail within the jet of M-87??!!

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hbanich
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Re: Pushing the Limits new [Re: Matt Lindsey]
      #5709711 - 03/02/13 11:00 PM Attachment (7 downloads)

Quote:

Wait a minute Howard. Did you say detail within the jet of M-87??!!




I saw a couple of the brighter knots in the jet with my 28 f/4 last April. They were subtle, slightly brighter areas along the jet that helped define the line of the jet. The seeing was so-so and the SQM was 21.68 at the time and I was using 695x.

It helped that I had seen M87's jet with several knots though the 90 inch Bok Telescope on Kitt Peak a few years ago, so I had an idea of what they might look like, but I was still surprised I could see even two of them in my own scope.


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hbanich
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Re: Pushing the Limits new [Re: hbanich]
      #5711836 - 03/04/13 01:12 AM Attachment (6 downloads)

Just to make sure no one confuses the two galaxies at the top of the sketch with the jet, I've added labels:

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Mta472
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Re: Pushing the Limits new [Re: Starman1]
      #5713900 - 03/05/13 06:06 AM

You didn't see all of this from the LA area did you???

ole Mike


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Achernar
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Re: Pushing the Limits new [Re: Starman1]
      #5714315 - 03/05/13 12:07 PM

I have glimpsed hints of surface features on Ganymede with the 15-inch, at 425X when the seeing was good. Namely the brighter polar regions versus the darker equatorial regions. I may have glimpsed the central star in M-57, the seeing here is just too poor most of the time for a large telescope to show it.

Taras


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