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stanislas-jean
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/22/08

Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5698070 - 02/24/13 11:03 AM

Sorry we see nothing to "confess" to you.
We are not intellectual observer, far away.
I feel your entry game of tenis play is well over, since long time.


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blb
Post Laureate


Reged: 11/25/05

Loc: Piedmont NC
Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: David Gray]
      #5698141 - 02/24/13 11:49 AM

Quote:

Quote:

After five months plus, you all are still arguing with someone who sees what no one else can see. Only a few can ever see what he does and those are the ones who probably saw the canals on Mars, if they had lived back then. How many of us have seen any detail in a plenatary nebula of the same size? or any other planet for that mater. With abilities like his, we should look at Mercury and contribute to our knowledge of this inner planet, but it can't be done. Yes it is possible to see some detail on Uranus occasionaly but not to see banding every time you look at the planet. If you could see this then others would see it too, but they can't. So I would say just stop arguing with him and let him do his own thing. We can argue when his work is published in a profesional journal. Until then, so what.




Seems to me over 11k views of this thread (10k+ on the “..Season”) might be indication of something worthwhile in spite of the often rather circular debate/s at times.

Planetary nebulae: Please point me to a one that truly matches Uranus in brightness and visual aspect. An unfortunate prefix, “planetary”, I believe coined by William Herschel, but I suspect not meant as an exact comparison. Does the Saturn Nebula really look a lot like that planet? If I were to start seeing Saturn looking like that I would reckon my observing days were over! NGC 6891 in Delphinus (a long-time favourite of mine) has been mentioned. I hope we would not use this (or any other) c.100x fainter object, with some comparatively coarser features, as a yardstick for Uranus. Perhaps I might revise my impressions if I was allowed to view it in the Palomar 5m, or suchlike, versus Uranus in my 415mm D-K, or even an 8” SCT – but very much doubt it! I have had many views through a friend’s 8” Celestron for the record – not Uranus so far!

As I said previously: next apparition I will put the 152mm off-axis stop (f/44!) on the (f/16) D-K and give it a fair (and cautious!) appraisal. Then hopefully post my impressions; if Uranus has not become CN’s Forbidden Planet by then!!



I was not speaking of any of the nebula that you have mentioned. I was talking about the many stellar planetary nebula that are only 3 to 4 arc seconds in size, which most of us have to blink with a filter to confirm the identification, yet Stanislas is seeing detail in this size object on a regular basis. Really? I mean REALLY? Yes I do agree that there are those who have seen detail on Uranus. O'Meara determined the rotation rate of Uranus with such observations, but that was a spot. He did NOT see banding every time he looked at Uranus now did he? The same for the other names that have mentioned.

I have looked at Uranus many times and never have seen any detail. Does that mean that others can't? NO! It only means that I have not seen any to date. I may one day see some detail too, but do I believe that some one can see such detail every time he looks at the 3.7 arc second planet, NO, I don't believe that. The atmosphere we look through will not allow that. None of the great names mentioned have seen detail each and every time they look at this planet either. So let me just go ahad and bow at the feet of this great observer, , because we have not gone to the labratory and tested our vision like him. Really? Really?


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David Gray
sage
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Reged: 08/06/12

Loc: Co. Durham UK
Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: blb]
      #5698256 - 02/24/13 01:20 PM

Once again I get mis-read: 3" to 4" is far from stellar at over x300 and my often used x535 gives similar Uranus disk size to the lunar. The brightness factor is the issue - where are similarly bright PNs of these dimensions ("aspect")? I did not suggest comparison using NGC 6891 with Uranus - more like disputing such a comparison (please re-read!). As for the "Saturn" I was simply demonstrating the looseness used in naming such DSOs.

O'Meara was pretty much unlikely to see much banding anyhow as at that epoch Uranus was pole-on. He did, get as well as a spot, a polar cap and part of what looked like a partially circumscribing band and zone at the limb however: 1981 July 23 using the Harvard Observatory 9 inch refractor. As for O'Meara and others seeing or not banding in large/v. large telescopes I have covered that in earlier posts not too far back on here - page 12.

With regard to Stan: from the standpoint of a longtime Uranus observer I give him the benefit of the doubt, and refuse to condemn him outright nor descend to some of the nastiness I have read. My first sightings were with a 10" Newtonian with - now classic - H. Wildey optics. Please study my above mentioned posts.

For next apparition I would say to those who want to give Uranus a fair go the please disregard the sour-grape negativity of the nay-sayers.


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David Gray
sage
*****

Reged: 08/06/12

Loc: Co. Durham UK
Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: David Gray]
      #5698297 - 02/24/13 01:44 PM

Quote:

"He did not write that he saw a belt(s), big difference."

I lost this bit somewhere in my editing - my response:

When a guy like Sheehan commits to such a remark maybe the difference is not that great.

He was also there in 1995 with David Graham and David told me that he and a couple of others were getting detail on Uranus (the 36") and Sheehan refused to look as he said they had influenced him....!!




My fault: I was too light on background detail with Sheehan's quoted message and risk putting him in a bad light so will here elaborate with everyone's indulgence.

So let’s take a closer look at Sheehan’s wording: [Uranus]……. “and had the distinct impression that there was a dark equatorial belt,…………..You can pass along to David Gray my confirmation” which, to be fair, can look somewhat contradictory with the second phrase: ….”You can pass along to David Gray my confirmation”. Confirmation? Yes because David Graham had later mentioned my drawing showing the dark belt – hence mutual agreement: i.e. my more confident view giving more certainty to his distinct impression – not 100% certainty perhaps (and we risk splitting hairs) but not a “big difference” either! Are we to believe that Sheehan of all people would commit himself to saying confirmation so readily otherwise?


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Rick Woods
Postmaster
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Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: telescopemullet]
      #5698335 - 02/24/13 02:05 PM

Quote:

This is not about her observing a planet, it's about one of the world's most brilliant minds describing science. Your sour grapes comment only supports her point. I suggest you read her book.




I'm not following your line of illogic. But, let's let that pass for now. The quote you posted from her was:

Quote:

“Although our instinct might be that observations made unaided with our eyes are the most reliable and that we should be suspicious of abstraction, science teaches us to transcend this all too human inclination. The measurements we make with the instruments we design are more trustworthy than our naked eyes, and can be improved and verified through repetition.”




OK, let's go with that. I've seen any number of images of Uranus taken from Earth that show banding. So, she appears to really be supporting Stan, who claims to have observed features visually that have indeed been imaged by large telescopes and spacecraft.

Why is it so difficult for you to entertain the idea that this might actually be true? That Stan may just have better vision and observing conditions than you?
I suggest you read something other than her book.


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leviathan
sage


Reged: 11/29/11

Loc: Azerbaijan
Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5698463 - 02/24/13 03:34 PM

Quote:


Well, I don't see any observing credentials there. Has she ever observed Uranus? Or, is this another yawn-inspiring instance of someone who can't do something, explaining why nobody else can - the "Sour Grapes" syndrome?

We have had several heavyweight observers weighing in here (directly and indirectly) on the side of seeing details on Uranus; people like David Gray, David Graham, William Sheehan, and Steve O'Meara (or haven't you read those posts?)

Perhaps Stan isn't as alone as you seem to think. Maybe the problem is in your own lack of visual acuity. To paraphrase an old quote: Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it ain't there. Although, I doubt that you, personally, have ever tried with an open mind, and for long enough to come to any sort of intelligent conclusion.
If you're going to be a doubter, you might emulate David K., who has gone out and tried.



+1


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azure1961p
Postmaster
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Reged: 01/17/09

Loc: USA
Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: David Gray]
      #5698547 - 02/24/13 04:33 PM

Quote:



For next apparition I would say to those who want to give Uranus a fair go the please disregard the sour-grape negativity of the nay-sayers.





I think it'd be shame if the planet were a write-off in terms of expectations by the curious, or new. In the same token I can appreciate the restraint and respect of the undertaking. It would be wrong if some gave the impression this were a virtual blue mars of contrasts and any given calendar evening is sure to turn out a show. Somewhere down the middle, leaning toward restraint in assumption is that elusive road. Perusing the ALPO site I've seen even very careful observers ordinarily known for some of the best work produce Uranus sketches that couldn't possibly be based on reality. A broadbanded *Y* pattern or *X* simply can't be but even dating into antiquity these drawings in those patterns have surfaced, much like the eye/brain straining to fill in a void or question with a quasi-truth.
I wish I had access to those older drawings - I recall them in an old Sky and Tel article. All this I suppose to convey that its a tricky undertaking with nothing pat about it (not implying you say it is) - I count myself fortunate to date I haven't seen an alphabet there yet.

Pete

Edited by azure1961p (02/24/13 04:35 PM)


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Astrodj
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 08/24/11

Loc: Missouri
Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5698609 - 02/24/13 05:05 PM

I have followed the "Uranus" threads with interest.

My personal experience is that I am 100% certain that I have never seen ANY clouds, bands, or spots on Uranus with my equipment.

I think there is a 99.9% certainty that I never will see any of this type of detail from my regular observing site and it's associated seeing conditions.

I also think there is a 99.8% certainty that I will not observe anything of this nature from any other site I manage to get to.

That does NOT mean I won't be trying though. I could be wrong, after all .


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azure1961p
Postmaster
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Reged: 01/17/09

Loc: USA
Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: Astrodj]
      #5698618 - 02/24/13 05:10 PM

DJ and that Cave is such a monster!!! One of THE best reflectors I've ever looked through. I agree though, I would never give up. I don't mean that in any small way either.

P.


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Astrodj
professor emeritus
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Reged: 08/24/11

Loc: Missouri
Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5698914 - 02/24/13 08:57 PM

Pete,

And... if I ever do see any of these details there is a 99.7% chance I will not mention having done so!

I love my old Cave, of course. It doesn't get out as much as it deserves.


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stanislas-jean
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/22/08

Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 new [Re: Astrodj]
      #5699245 - 02/25/13 02:20 AM

DJ nothing is loosed it remains 0.3%!
I think contradictors should apraised a situation objectively:
- consider the problem hard to access but possible, sufficient assessments were given in order to locate the situation of the problem that kills the idea of a featureless planet. So commonly diffused.
- consider the reports performed visually are given by some few observers. Being not alone. David is and we know also P Abel that performed this present opposition reports with his 8" and also with a 20" consistently. There was also more confidential contributors at the planet section. And sure among this world they are elsewhere. I guess them for participating to the survey.

But in fact why do you refuse the tests practice? Afraid to be "classified"? And what, this is not a risk to fall.
Because the test practice covers also the lady book concern and solve this.
What is the definition or the meaning of the word experience for you? We had seen so "experienced" people talking so freely.
Thanks David a new time for your input here.
Stanislas-Jean


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Rich (RLTYS)Moderator
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Reged: 12/18/04

Loc: New York (Long Island)
Re: Uranus cloud bands in a C8 [Re: stanislas-jean]
      #5699329 - 02/25/13 06:29 AM

To All

This thread seems to have turned into one big arguemant. Time to lock it.

Rich (RLTYS)


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