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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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DesertCrawler
member
*****

Reged: 05/30/13

Re: iOptron ZEQ25, initial impressions new [Re: ramasule]
      #6126239 - 10/09/13 01:19 AM

Quote:

sorry my mistake paul, I thought someone mentioned you put washers under the springs yes for tension.
What size are the springs? I don't have my mount with me (its 8 hours away at my remote work site) I would like to wonder into the hobby shop and pick some up.


Btw thanks for those videos.




I am running washers plus the longer spring supplied by Kevin at iOptron.

The washers are 6mm or 0.25" OD. My springs are between 6mm and 7mm in outside diameter and about 13mm in length. The new spring seems stiffer and is longer by maybe 3-4mm.

Maybe I will take the washers out of the RA and drop the spare stock spring in the RA tensioner and drop a few washers in the DEC.


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Ryuno
sage


Reged: 05/09/13

Loc: Tokyo
Re: iOptron ZEQ25, initial impressions new [Re: DesertCrawler]
      #6126307 - 10/09/13 02:55 AM

Paul, Discovered your videos. Thank you very much. They are a Godsent. I can't wait to apply these changes. I think that's exactly what I needed. I am very much looking forward to having a functional mount.

Heinz


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Ryuno
sage


Reged: 05/09/13

Loc: Tokyo
Re: iOptron ZEQ25, initial impressions new [Re: Ryuno]
      #6126324 - 10/09/13 03:31 AM

I still have one open question. What is the Advantage of the spring loading mechanism? My German equatorial mount does not use it, and I have never missed it. So far, To my experience it has just made the whole assembly more unstable. iOptron certainly Must have had Something in mind, when they introduced this mechanism.

Heinz


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orlyandico
Post Laureate
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Reged: 08/10/09

Loc: Singapore
Re: iOptron ZEQ25, initial impressions new [Re: Ryuno]
      #6126335 - 10/09/13 04:00 AM

probably to take up backlash in the worm engagement.

the CGE, CGE Pro, and Mach1 all use spring-loaded worms.


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cloudywest
member


Reged: 06/15/13

Re: iOptron ZEQ25, initial impressions new [Re: Ryuno]
      #6126429 - 10/09/13 07:04 AM

1. Reduce/eliminate backlash.
2. protect motor in case your OTA hits on tripod by accident.


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anat
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/03/04

Re: iOptron ZEQ25, initial impressions new [Re: cloudywest]
      #6126835 - 10/09/13 11:46 AM

I tested my ZEQ25 on the newest version of Skysafari on Android and iOS. I found that after pressing Align or Goto, the coordinate of the telescope shifts from the selected target. This is how the problem looks like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gheR4Dc8IKg&feature=youtu.be

Does anyone have this problem? I am using the firmware 130511.

Anat


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Ryuno
sage


Reged: 05/09/13

Loc: Tokyo
Re: iOptron ZEQ25, initial impressions new [Re: anat]
      #6127431 - 10/09/13 04:55 PM

Paul, I did everything as shown in your video. It turned out that the mount was perfectly adjusted. I did not have to change anything. What I did notice, however, is that the springs of the tension screws are very weak, at least to my judgment. They keep the worm gear only loosely engaged. I don't know how strong they have to be, but this is the only "open" parameter now, where something could be changed, namely putting stiffer springs or, like you did, add additional springs on the inside of the existing ones.
Although the springs in RA and DEC are of the same strengh, RA still has more play and is looser than DEC. Are the worm gears in RA and DEC different?, or is it just a question of leverage in the case of an imbalance?
Next step for me is to to a hardware store and buy stronger springs. If I can't find any, I'll contact iOptron.

DesertCrawler, you wrote you got longer springs from iOptron. Are they only longer or also stronger than the original ones? If yes, how much longer and how much stronger? And, what difference did it make, if any?

Heinz


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DesertCrawler
member
*****

Reged: 05/30/13

Re: iOptron ZEQ25, initial impressions new [Re: Ryuno]
      #6128115 - 10/09/13 11:32 PM

Quote:

Paul, I did everything as shown in your video. It turned out that the mount was perfectly adjusted. I did not have to change anything. What I did notice, however, is that the springs of the tension screws are very weak, at least to my judgment. They keep the worm gear only loosely engaged. I don't know how strong they have to be, but this is the only "open" parameter now, where something could be changed, namely putting stiffer springs or, like you did, add additional springs on the inside of the existing ones.
Although the springs in RA and DEC are of the same strengh, RA still has more play and is looser than DEC. Are the worm gears in RA and DEC different?, or is it just a question of leverage in the case of an imbalance?
Next step for me is to to a hardware store and buy stronger springs. If I can't find any, I'll contact iOptron.

DesertCrawler, you wrote you got longer springs from iOptron. Are they only longer or also stronger than the original ones? If yes, how much longer and how much stronger? And, what difference did it make, if any?

Heinz




From my earlier post, the washers are 6mm or 0.25" OD. The springs are between 6mm and 7mm in outside diameter and about 13mm in length. The new spring seems stiffer and is longer by maybe 3-4mm, so maybe 16-17mm. So, I think the new spring may be the same rate as the old spring, just with a few extra turns, maybe 1 or 2. I think the replacement spring is too weak, but workable and night and day different from the stock one.

The difference between the old spring and the new spring is the difference between having a mount I wanted to return and a mount that I now intend to use for imaging with substantial payload. It is most definitely worth it. Again, I am using the longer spring and a couple of washers, and it works great. The DEC tensioner needed no such adjustment.

I hope that helps.


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ramasule
member


Reged: 04/12/12

Re: iOptron ZEQ25, initial impressions new [Re: DesertCrawler]
      #6128222 - 10/10/13 12:47 AM

I'm going to pick up some rc car springs if I can find any before I fly back to work. My mount has been great but after watching Paul's vids I want to tear it apart... I like doing it . Maybe even give it some new white lithium grease

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Astronewb
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 09/19/11

Loc: Connecticut
Re: iOptron ZEQ25, initial impressions new [Re: DesertCrawler]
      #6128248 - 10/10/13 01:07 AM

Quote:

Next step for me is to to a hardware store and buy stronger springs. If I can't find any, I'll contact iOptron




Sorry, missed this question Heinz. Check your local suppliers for springs with these specifications:


Z Tension Spring data by Astronewb2011, on Flickr

The problem with using washers as spacers is that you will eventually encounter 'spring bind' where the coils hit and you effectively have a rock instead of a spring...:)

Good luck..Paul

Edited by Astronewb (10/10/13 01:08 AM)


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Ryuno
sage


Reged: 05/09/13

Loc: Tokyo
Re: iOptron ZEQ25, initial impressions new [Re: DesertCrawler]
      #6128335 - 10/10/13 03:19 AM

Quote:


The difference between the old spring and the new spring is the difference between having a mount I wanted to return and a mount that I now intend to use for imaging with substantial payload. It is most definitely worth it.




Thank you very much. This leaves some hope for me. I will rush to the hardware store to buy some other springs. It seems, iOptron is informed about this. So we can expect in the future some different and better springs.
The company should have tested the mount in real life a little bit more before releasing it.
Heinz


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ramasule
member


Reged: 04/12/12

Re: iOptron ZEQ25, initial impressions new [Re: Ryuno]
      #6128449 - 10/10/13 07:14 AM

Quote:

Quote:


The difference between the old spring and the new spring is the difference between having a mount I wanted to return and a mount that I now intend to use for imaging with substantial payload. It is most definitely worth it.




Thank you very much. This leaves some hope for me. I will rush to the hardware store to buy some other springs. It seems, iOptron is informed about this. So we can expect in the future some different and better springs.
The company should have tested the mount in real life a little bit more before releasing it.
Heinz



I'm pretty sure they tested it plenty. My mount was fine out of box, as I'm sure hundreds of others are. The fact is only a handful are bad and those users end up here. As I stated before this is a 1000 dollar mount, there is going to be QC/QA issues. Maybe when they were assembling yours the spring is slightly shorter, maybe it was near the end of workers shift, maybe some locktite didnt make it onto your bolt. Fact is this is a mass produced mount and they are simply not going to be each individually tested to the extreams we test them off the line. It will be a simple boot up, slew, good? yes, next one.

Ram


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Astronewb
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 09/19/11

Loc: Connecticut
Re: iOptron ZEQ25, initial impressions new [Re: ramasule]
      #6128591 - 10/10/13 09:14 AM

Quote:

So we can expect in the future some different and better springs.
The company should have tested the mount in real life a little bit more before releasing it.




Just for general information. The 'original' shipping mounts had 1/2" springs and tension screws that were 1mm longer.

The spring on the left is the spring from a later mount. You can see it is shorter by one coil than the one on the right.

After introduction of the mount into the general public, iOptron had some user issues with burnt out encoder motors and Over Current messages galore.

What had happened was simple, they never had any instructions on how to adjust the tensioner in the Quick Start Guide and users were just running the tensioner all the way down tight.

With the original tension screw that was 1mm longer, that resulted in the screw bottoming out against the worm housing and creating a mechanical lock...not good, and the motors bit the dust easily and early.

So, they quickly shortened the screw by 1mm to prevent mechanical contact..that was fine. Unfortunately they clipped a coil off the spring at the same time, in a knee jerk reaction, to prevent any OC messages. That was bad, and not needed, and resulted in being able to override the ring gear too easily.


Z Tension Screw and Spring by Astronewb2011, on Flickr

I'm not sure what's shipping now, but if the springs are not 1/2" (12mm) long, they should be replaced with a suitable spring.

Just for info.

Clear skies....Paul

Edited by Astronewb (10/11/13 09:23 PM)


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Ryuno
sage


Reged: 05/09/13

Loc: Tokyo
Re: iOptron ZEQ25, initial impressions new [Re: Astronewb]
      #6130541 - 10/11/13 08:30 AM Attachment (12 downloads)

1. I just bought new springs. Japan is a metric country, so I could not get the exact right sizes and lengths. But maybe that's not so crucial, as long as the springs can press on the ball with sufficient strength. I think I will try a three spring approach, stacking them into each other. I'll keep you informed about the result.
Great expectations.

2. I installed the triple springs.(See image) No significant change so far. RA is still so loose that the scope can dive any time again.

For visual, the mount has a lot of vibrations and swinging. At higher magnification this is really annoying. My P2Z is more stable.
I am sorry to say that I am more disappointed than pleased. The 27 pounds max payload seem to me far too much, if you need a stable platform for visual observation. For imaging I don't know.

I am at the end of my wisdom and am considering to cancel the order for the second ZEQ25. And get a Takahashi mount instead although it costs more, or an iOptron GEM.
We really are the beta-testers. Expensive testing (for us)

Heinz


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Astronewb
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 09/19/11

Loc: Connecticut
Re: iOptron ZEQ25, initial impressions [Re: Ryuno]
      #6132015 - 10/11/13 09:31 PM

Quote:

2. I installed the triple springs.(See image) No significant change so far. RA is still so loose that the scope can dive any time again.




Heinz, perhaps you should double check your mount? It sounds like something is really out of adjustment, play-wise. If the ota keeps camming out of position that easily, something is causing it.

My mount, after setting it up in the video, performs like this:

With the mount in a horizontal position.

With one counterweight flush with the end of the safety cap.

Tension screw all the way down..no slippage.

Tension screw one turn (360 degrees) out..no slippage.

Tension screw two turns out..no slippage.

Tension screw three turns out..no slippage.

Tension screw four turns out..no slippage.

Tension screw 5 turns out..slips if I breathe on the counterweight.

That is with just a set of the dual springs installed?

So, definitely something you're missing, or the ota is way out of balance (which I find hard to believe).

Cheers,

Paul


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Ryuno
sage


Reged: 05/09/13

Loc: Tokyo
Re: iOptron ZEQ25, initial impressions [Re: Astronewb]
      #6132102 - 10/11/13 10:12 PM

Dear Paul

Thank for your detailed answer. Your description matches exactly my expectation. My Dec axis behaves appr. like that. No idea what causes the slippage in RA. The mount behaves as if the teeth of the cogwheels were rounded. Maybe I should have a look? At least, As it is now, the mount is pretty useless.

Best regards
Heinz


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Bluejay08
member


Reged: 09/29/09

Re: iOptron ZEQ25, initial impressions [Re: Ryuno]
      #6132189 - 10/11/13 10:58 PM

It sounds like the gear is not meshing well. Maybe the worm does no sit right on top of the wheel?

Jay


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ramasule
member


Reged: 04/12/12

Re: iOptron ZEQ25, initial impressions [Re: Bluejay08]
      #6132243 - 10/11/13 11:40 PM

Heinz, did you try taking it apart like in pauls videos?
I just redid mine (it was fine) but I enjoy learning about my gear. Your worm gear tensioner may be to tight (not allowing it to spring against the main gear) or to loose (rocking in the housing)

Here is the link to the other thread:

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/6126038/page...

I would recommend watching all of them because it is great to know in's and out's of mount.

The caution I have about the way your springs are is the long small spring in the middle might be pushing the ball out of the way. The ball has to sit in the springs. If you are pushing the ball out of the way, and the springs are deflecting you will have no benefit as they are not actually pushing on the tensioner housing.

I would remove your black cover and watch what is going on. This is very easy to do follow Paul's videos it is a 1 minute procedure to remove the cover. This will let you watch what is actually going on.


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Ryuno
sage


Reged: 05/09/13

Loc: Tokyo
Re: iOptron ZEQ25, initial impressions [Re: Bluejay08]
      #6133493 - 10/12/13 05:47 PM Attachment (11 downloads)

"It sounds like the gear is not meshing well. Maybe the worm does no sit right on top of the wheel?"

A first look did not reveal anything immediately suspicious to me (see picture below), but it is difficult to access the worm gear. Can it be taken apart somehow?

"The caution I have about the way your springs are is the long small spring in the middle might be pushing the ball out of the way."

I had clipped the inner string flush with the other two before inserting it.

"I would remove your black cover and watch what is going on. This is very easy to do follow Paul's videos it is a 1 minute procedure to remove the cover. This will let you watch what is actually going on."

Just checked it. Everything as it should be. (see picture in next post)

Thank you for your help!!

Heinz


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Ryuno
sage


Reged: 05/09/13

Loc: Tokyo
Re: iOptron ZEQ25, initial impressions [Re: Ryuno]
      #6133596 - 10/12/13 06:48 PM Attachment (13 downloads)

Ball sitting atop triple spring:

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