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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5713056 - 03/04/13 06:14 PM

Yes, lots of problems. They thought a Heavy launcher was the key, but nuclear propulsion(s) seems at least as important and has to come back.

Actually, medium size launchers could be used to assemble a nuclear space ship with a few lauch. Isn't ArianeV heavy capable of ~30 tons in LEO?
Three launches make almost for a 100 t, that's not too bad


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neotesla
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 11/18/10

Loc: Canada
Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5713060 - 03/04/13 06:16 PM

One must remember that the first manned trips to the moon were flybys as well...

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FirstSightModerator
Duke of Deneb
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Reged: 12/26/05

Loc: Raleigh, NC
Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5714021 - 03/05/13 09:12 AM

Quote:

Quote:


Try and invent a system to keep a gerbil alive without ANY intervention for a year.





Arguably, it would be easier to keep humans alive for long periods than gerbils, since humans provide their own interventions.




Problem: There's no Home Depot on the way to Mars to go buy more duck tape, pvc pipe, or wire you might need for "interventions". No all-night grocery stores either.


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ColoHank
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 06/07/07

Loc: western Colorado
Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: neotesla]
      #5714161 - 03/05/13 10:44 AM

Quote:

One must remember that the first manned trips to the moon were flybys as well...




One must also remember that the first manned trip to the Moon, including twenty orbits of that body, took less than a week. The Apollo 11 mission took only eight days. A flyby around Mars would take...how long?

While I recognize that our technology to guide and perhaps propel spacecraft has improved over the years, a human's ability to endure prolonged missions has not. We'd be the weak link in such an endeavor and the most likely to break.

The bottom line, I think, is that it's a whole lot easier to imagine sending someone to Mars than it would be to actually do it. A whole lot cheaper, too. Perhaps we should be content to know that we alone can fashion ever more sophisticated robots to do the dirty work.


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Rick Woods
Postmaster
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Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: ColoHank]
      #5714615 - 03/05/13 02:43 PM

Still... if there are two people prepared to try it, and a vehicle available capable of the journey, what the heck - I'd love to see it happen, and find out what the results were.

Someone has to be first, right?


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Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5714760 - 03/05/13 04:00 PM

I'll wait until they are successful with a monkey

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Joad
Wordsmith
*****

Reged: 03/22/05

Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Mister T]
      #5714883 - 03/05/13 04:55 PM

Well, no one is asking for our permission. I only wish that people would stop making momentous announcements until they've got something momentous on hand: like an actual rocket, an actual living module, an actual food inventory. You know, the little things.

I know, it can run on one of those cold fusion engines that the world has been assured already exist. Talk about minimalist space flight. I'm sure the organizers of this thing are already onto it.


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Rick Woods
Postmaster
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Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Joad]
      #5715322 - 03/05/13 08:45 PM

Quote:

I know, it can run on one of those cold fusion engines that the world has been assured already exist. Talk about minimalist space flight. I'm sure the organizers of this thing are already onto it.




Hey, I know some people who have already been there via astral projection.
And here we are, wasting all this effort on going there physically. Tsk.


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David Knisely
Postmaster
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Reged: 04/19/04

Loc: southeastern Nebraska
Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: neotesla]
      #5715673 - 03/06/13 12:23 AM

Quote:

One must remember that the first manned trips to the moon were flybys as well...




Not quite. The first manned trip to the vicinity of the moon was Apollo 8, and, unlike the proposed Tito mission, it entered lunar orbit, completing 10 lunar orbits before returning to Earth. Apollo 10 again entered lunar orbit and the lunar module on that mission did a practice approach to the lunar surface, descending to about 14.4 km (9 miles) before returning to rendezvous with the command module. This proposed Mars mission is only a flyby and not an orbital or landing attempt. To me, that is like driving in a VW Beetle from the east coast of the U.S. to the within sight of the easternmost end of the Grand Canyon and then immediately turning for home. Clear skies to you.


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Ravenous
sage


Reged: 11/14/09

Loc: UK
Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: David Knisely]
      #5715867 - 03/06/13 06:32 AM

Quote:

To me, that is like driving in a VW Beetle from the east coast of the U.S. to the within sight of the easternmost end of the Grand Canyon and then immediately turning for home.



Precisely. And let's face it the return would be the worst part.

I think many of us would be willing to risk the first eight months, all for a few days of fun watching Mars up close (though the closest approach might well be over the night side... not sure). However after that, having to endure eight more months to get back again would drive most of us to depression, no matter how many interesting solar observations, entry package monitorings etc. the controllers would schedule for us.


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Joad
Wordsmith
*****

Reged: 03/22/05

Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Ravenous]
      #5716189 - 03/06/13 11:12 AM

If this mission ever actually occurs, whoever makes it will make history, and that is motivation enough for many people, so if it really worked out as planned I'm quite certain that its participants would not be disappointed. My only question is simply whether a private group can really move from zero to liftoff in only five years, when that group has only just started raising money for the mission, much less started building the rocket and living module.

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ColoHank
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 06/07/07

Loc: western Colorado
Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Joad]
      #5716277 - 03/06/13 12:12 PM

Quote:

If this mission ever actually occurs, whoever makes it will make history, and that is motivation enough for many people...




Like Amelia Earhart, they'll make history whether their mission is successful or not.


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sirchz
super member


Reged: 09/21/09

Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Joad]
      #5716408 - 03/06/13 01:32 PM

Quote:

If this mission ever actually occurs, whoever makes it will make history, and that is motivation enough for many people, so if it really worked out as planned I'm quite certain that its participants would not be disappointed. My only question is simply whether a private group can really move from zero to liftoff in only five years, when that group has only just started raising money for the mission, much less started building the rocket and living module.




Yes, there are some big challenges. There's an article in New Scientist that lists 4 major hurdles. I think the 4th, reentry, is the least discussed.

1) Heavy lift vehicle - first demo is scheduled for later this year
2) Life Support System - prototype scheduled to be finished later this year.
3) Radiation - Well discussed.
4) Reentry

Quote:

Even then, the most dangerous part of the mission still lies ahead, thanks to number four on the to-do list. The spacecraft will be travelling so fast when it returns to Earth, as a result of its slingshot around Mars, that the plan is to spend 10 days in orbit to lose speed. After that, it will still be travelling at a record 14 kilometres per second when it hits Earth's atmosphere.

"That's a higher velocity than anything man-made has ever had during re-entry," says former NASA chief technologist Robert Braun, now at the Georgia Institute of Technology in Atlanta. The next-fastest was the Stardust mission, which collected samples from the tail of a comet and returned at 12.5 kilometres per second. "Fourteen kilometres a second sounds like just a little bit more, but the heating is actually significantly more," Braun says. NASA has agreed that its engineers will help design the re-entry path and the heat shields that will protect Inspiration's astronauts.




Here's a link to the article. It may require you to sign up for a free account with the magazine.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23238-solve-four-big-problems-to-get-pe...


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FirstSightModerator
Duke of Deneb
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Reged: 12/26/05

Loc: Raleigh, NC
Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Joad]
      #5716497 - 03/06/13 02:09 PM

Quote:

If this mission ever actually occurs, whoever makes it will make history, and that is motivation enough for many people, so if it really worked out as planned I'm quite certain that its participants would not be disappointed.




The best historical analogies to the crew's situation on the extended-length Mars expedition are:
1) Magellan's pioneering voyage around the world, particularly the segment crossing the Pacific Ocean from leaving South America on November 28, 1520 until they reached their next landfall in the Marianas Islands on March 6th 1521. The crew is as helplessly isolated and remote in the early 16th-century mid-Pacific Ocean as the Mars expedition would be out in space, save for not having to provide a breathable atmosphere indefinitely.
2) The Powell expedition down the Green and Colorado Rivers from May 24, 1869 - August 29, 1869. Except for one spot in a gentle valley where the Uinta River joins the Green in early July where a long walk-out is possible (and one of Powell's original ten crew members takes the opportunity to leave the expedition)...the combination of extreme remoteness in distance and terrain from nearest settlements and confinement by the deep, steep, rugged canyon walls along the river course...effectively meant that once undertaken, the men were unavoidably committed to continuing to the end on what provisions they started with (opportunities to harvest fish and game along the way proved frustratingly scarce). On August 27th, three of the nine remaining crew members elect to abandon the expedition and attempt to walk out up a north-bank side-canyon (now called "Separation Canyon"), but apparently die in the attempt...they disappeared without a trace (except one of their names scrawled on a rock).

Granted, the Mars expedition would (unlike Magellan's or Powell's parties) have continuous modern electronic communications with ground-crews and civilization back on earth, albeit time-delayed several minutes by distance, whereas communication with anyone else outside their vessels was impossible crossing the Pacific or going down the Green/Colorado Rivers through canyon country. Nevertheless, the Mars expedition represents the same kind of irrevocable commitment these earlier expeditions represented for their respective crews. Ocean storms and powerful river rapids could at anytime be the undoing for Magelland and Powell, and likewise storms of radiation or high-speed collisions with particles could be the undoing for the Mars crew.

On the level of personal interaction among crew members, both the Magellan and Powell expeditions were periodically afflicted with storms of personality conflict, distrust, and dissent among crew members. In the Magellan expedition, there was an outright mutiny during the layover at the tip of South America which led to Magelland nearly being deposed as expedition captain, and one of the boats fleeing back home to Spain across the Atlantic rather than continuing into the Pacific. In the Powell case, it led three of the crew members to abandon the rest of the expedition and attempt to walk out (as mentioned above), fearing the sheer-walled deep canyon and formidable rapids just ahead portended the likelihood of encountering unrunnable rapids with no feasible portage around and no way to back out, or else starving due to rapidly dwindling, inadequate remaining rations before reaching open country at the end of the canyons. Ironically, only two days after these three members left, the remaining Powell party did successfully emerge from the end of the Grand Canyon at the Grand Wash Cliffs, near a Mormon settlement. As to the bonded (married?) two-person Mars crew, neither divorce nor mutiny nor abandonment of the mission would be feasible to even consider en route.

Edited by FirstSight (03/06/13 08:24 PM)


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StarWars
Mr. Postmaster Man
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Reged: 11/26/03

Loc: At the Gym >Spudtastic<
Re: Trip to Mars anyone? [Re: Mister T]
      #5716906 - 03/06/13 05:27 PM

Quote:

I'll wait until they are successful with a monkey






NASA Sending Harvey the chimp to mars....

money well spent...


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SteveMushynsky
member


Reged: 02/21/13

Loc: Syracuse, NY area (Central NY)
Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5734532 - 03/15/13 05:22 PM

I see divorce in space... A dotted line drawn to bisect the habitat...

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SteveMushynsky
member


Reged: 02/21/13

Loc: Syracuse, NY area (Central NY)
Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: SteveMushynsky]
      #5734563 - 03/15/13 05:39 PM

Quote:

If this mission ever actually occurs, whoever makes it will make history, and that is motivation enough for many people



I nominate Donald Trump to be sent to Mars for the good of Mankind, and that he be denied reentry until he produces his original birth certificate and his full college records.

His selection would save half of the life support mass as he would fill the entire habitable volume all by himself.
Provision for venting excess gas would be needed - Perhaps use it for propulsion.


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Astrohat
super member


Reged: 04/30/13

Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5856704 - 05/13/13 01:00 AM

And 5 years later, we will land on Mars.

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Astrohat
super member


Reged: 04/30/13

Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5856710 - 05/13/13 01:02 AM

I hope they won't bump into of the Mariner spacecraft that is still orbiting Mars and scheduled to crash in a few years. Would the fly-by spacecraft have a radar to detect Mariner?

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CounterWeight
Postmaster
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Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Palo alto, CA.
Re: Trip to Mars anyone? new [Re: Astrohat]
      #5860250 - 05/14/13 03:44 PM

I like the idea of sending folks and building a habitat, be interesting to see if they get to take a telescope? I really wish we'd chosen that direction for the Lunar program once we figured out that is wasn't made of cheese (well unless you are Wallace and Gromit).

According to my old books, it was supposed to be a base on the Moon first, with back and forth from the earth to the space station, and from the space station to the moon... then we were supposed to go everywhere else.


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