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Equipment Discussions >> Classic Telescopes

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terraclarke
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Reged: 05/29/12

Loc: Just South of the Mason-Dixon ...
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: Dave M]
      #5740718 - 03/18/13 01:28 PM



I like your idea Dave.

Terra


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terraclarke
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Reged: 05/29/12

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Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: Happy-Idiot]
      #5740732 - 03/18/13 01:35 PM

And the very best thing about this forum is that we can all share our opinions however diverse they are, and still be friends in the end.



Terra


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Happy-Idiot
Stuck with it
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Reged: 04/06/06

Loc: 3rd Rock
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: terraclarke]
      #5740792 - 03/18/13 02:06 PM

I forgive you, no matter how wrong you may be.

Just kidding, I agree Terra,that is why CN's is so great, after all said and done we share a similar passion for classics, just in different ways.


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Masvingo
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 01/10/12

Loc: Ayrshire, Scotland
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: Datapanic]
      #5741276 - 03/18/13 05:53 PM

Quote:

There haven't been that many newbie "how much is it worth" incidents to really make it a big deal. Just ignore them if you want, it's your choice.

I absolutely oppose any campaign to limit ALL NEWBIES privileges to post here just because of the actions of a small number of people. There's enough of that going on already on other issues outside this forum; we don't need our rights cut because of the actions of a very small group of people.

If there were some first post time limits, I probably would not have the Horsetrail Cave in my hands now and I probably would not even be here for that matter. Most newbies first posts are not questions about how much some find is worth so they can sell it. If you don't like those kinds of post, ignore them, or tell them to PM Hellen Waite.




Well said, Dan. As a relative newbie myself I don't like the idea of any limit being imposed. There will always be newcomers whose only interest is to take advantage and try to make a quick buck but they usually reveal their colours pretty quickly (a very recent example demonstrates this) and I think it would be a shame that the majority suffer due to the actions of a few.

James


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kansas skies
sage


Reged: 12/02/12

Loc: Kansas, USA
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: Dave M]
      #5741372 - 03/18/13 06:34 PM

Quote:

Maybe a 30 day 30 post rule needs to apply to the classics forum like it does to Shop n swap.




This rule has much merit for its intended purpose in the Swap and Shop section. However, I really fail to see how it could serve any useful purpose in this or any other forum. It ends up sounding a bit like snobbery...

Bill


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Dave M
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Reged: 08/03/04

Loc: Ohio
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: kansas skies]
      #5741407 - 03/18/13 06:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Maybe a 30 day 30 post rule needs to apply to the classics forum like it does to Shop n swap.




This rule has much merit for its intended purpose in the Swap and Shop section. However, I really fail to see how it could serve any useful purpose in this or any other forum. It ends up sounding a bit like snobbery...

Bill




Who cares how it "sounds" as long as it works.
Point is something needs done to stop people joining just to mine for pricing info, let them get it some place else.
Its just an idea anyway.

Edited by Dave M (03/18/13 06:51 PM)


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Ron500E
member


Reged: 06/01/12

Loc: Illinois, near the River Styx
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: kansas skies]
      #5741419 - 03/18/13 06:53 PM

Remember, the guy who bought has scope at a garage sale for $20 and is asking $300 may have gone to 50 garage sales without finding anything. Those "pickers' perform a valuable service in digging out stuff in their local and offering it nationally to enthusiasts. Most garage sale or Craigslist people don't want the hassle of shipping, it's cash and carry 99% of the time. So if someone finds something 3 States away and is willing to ship it to me I say more power to him and if he makes a profit, even a large one, well, he's got to eat too. I always have the option of saying "no" and waiting for someone to offer what I want closer to me. But who knows how long that will take. I think what they are selling is not just the scope but the time finding the scope and the knowledge of where to market it. That is a valuable service IMHO. I don't have the time or inclination to check every Craigslist in the world but if someone half way across the country finds something that I want, I will thank the Good Lord that he found something that I have been looking for and is willing to sell it to me. Of course I'd prefer that what I am looking for is within walking distance of my place but for some odd reason that never works out and it seems the larger and heavier the item the further it is from my zip code.
Kind Regards,

Ron


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kansas skies
sage


Reged: 12/02/12

Loc: Kansas, USA
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: Dave M]
      #5741628 - 03/18/13 08:16 PM

As long as there are rules, there will always be those who try to circumvent those rules... Dropping hints in this forum (or any other forum) that you have something to sell is most likely an attempt to circumvent the swap and shop 30/30 rule. Maybe the solution to this might be to not allow newcomers access to PM's (except to moderators) until a grace period of 30 days have passed. That way, nobody would have to be excluded from joining in on the conversation.

Ron - I've been known to do a little picking myself. What you said here rings very true.

Bill


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tim53
Postmaster
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Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: Happy-Idiot]
      #5741797 - 03/18/13 09:27 PM

Quote:

Awhile back there was a similar topic about a member that buys scopes and parts them out for a profit. I still have to laugh because some of the members that were firing on about him, were and still are his customers.




I'm one of the not some.

Quote:

He is part of the Classic telescope economy,




yes.
Quote:

he is a essential player




no

Quote:

AS ARE WE ALL!




Well, WE certainly are!

Quote:

Back on topic, it is simple supply and demand. You want, you buy, it sells! You don't want, you don't buy, it doesn't sell! Right now people want classic telescopes.




Yes, and I'm sure when more collectors want Cave and other fabulous old Newtonians, the prices for those will climb like for Japanese refractors now.

-Tim.


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Dave M
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Reged: 08/03/04

Loc: Ohio
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: kansas skies]
      #5741808 - 03/18/13 09:31 PM

Bill, i honestly cant say what the best solution would be, but i think the discussion is a good thing.

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starman876
Postmaster
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Reged: 04/28/08

Loc: VA
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: Dave M]
      #5741835 - 03/18/13 09:44 PM

As far as parting scopes out, to date I have refrained from doing so because I have enough parts to not have to do that. However, I am sure as time passes that might change. I hate to do it, but there are times that I am very tempted. There are some items that I feel are so scarce that I really do not want to sell them. So I am wondering, is the parting out of classic scopes making complete scopes more valuable as more and more are parted out. Also, are the parts becoming more valuable because people are realizing where else am I going to get these parts. As we can all clearly see there are a few that are blessed with the financial ability to buy just about anything that crosses their path which I am sure also drives up prices.

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John Higbee
sage
*****

Reged: 07/17/12

Loc: Virginia
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: Masvingo]
      #5742017 - 03/18/13 11:09 PM

James, Dan - couldn't agree more. I hope the current policy is retained.

Sometimes the newbie's question is actually "should I buy?" rather than "how much should I charge?" If there had been first post limits last summer when I joined, I wouldn't have been able to get Dan's good advice on a purchase I was considering. That advice helped me decide to buy my Cave 12.5" .

John


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Datapanic
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Reged: 10/17/09

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: John Higbee]
      #5742049 - 03/18/13 11:32 PM

A long time ago, and it's probably still around, was this communications systems called FidoNet. It only had two basic rules that were the basis of all other rules:

a. Thou shalt not excessively annoy others.
b. Thou shalt not be too easily annoyed.

Sometimes, they were combined into one golden rule:

Thou shalt not be excessively annoying nor thee be easily annoyed.

Later, someone made the suggestion that if you are easily annoyed, just press whatever key made the next message come up, subsequently ignoring that which would cause your obviously personal annoyance(s).

What's the point? None. That was back in the BBS days, but the rules still make sense today. Most BBS's were dedicated to the Free Exchange of Information, especially RBBS-PC, which I worked alot with for many years. I had a lot to do with that kind of communication back then and still believe that even though BBS's are mostly gone now, the internet users should still be allowed, within means, to raise their hand and post a question or comment for anything they want. Asking a question about the value of a classic scope on a classic scope forum is within reason to me. Where else would you go if you had no idea what a scope was worth and wanted to sell it? It comes with the territory! We say there's no such thing as a stupid question. Well, there are annoying questions for sure, but remember that the person asking it may have no idea. Instead of banning their ability to ask something you don't want to hear, either ignore them or just tell them flat out, without being rude, that you don't like those kinds of questions. But remember the other old saying about first impressions...


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Happy-Idiot
Stuck with it
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Reged: 04/06/06

Loc: 3rd Rock
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? [Re: John Higbee]
      #5742053 - 03/18/13 11:38 PM

Classic telescope prices on the rise?

Flood the market. All members dump your classics onto Evilbay for a buy it now price of $1. Unitrons for a dollar, we can make a difference..... So who goes first?


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starman876
Postmaster
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Reged: 04/28/08

Loc: VA
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? [Re: Happy-Idiot]
      #5742060 - 03/18/13 11:45 PM



Wonder who would be waiting in line for the first fool to go for it.


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strdst
Post Laureate
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Reged: 03/23/08

Loc: Oregon Territory
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? [Re: Happy-Idiot]
      #5742235 - 03/19/13 03:10 AM

I propose a $500 retro active registration fee for everyone who registered to CN and has posted on the Classic Telescope Forum after IDK DataPanic in 2009 (Got yer back dude! ) This money could be kept in a fund and drawn upon when a member feels they had to pay too much for another classic scope for their "essential" collection because too much information was available on CN by members who were willing to speak and share freely to a noob poster with something to sell. "I should have gotten the Unitron for $600 but someone here suggested a price of $800! I humbly, or not, apply for a $200 grant to cover the difference between what I paid and what I wanted to pay"... No problem... Ka-ching! Sorry for the inconvience!

I also propose a sort of cuss box where if anyone speaks of prices paid for their scopes they must pay some nominal amount for tipping off the rest of the world, via internet, of price points. In the 6345 debacle Terra and Tim jumped in with what they paid for their NOT Sears 6345's. That would be a violation of the rules and incur a fine! I mean now the world knows that these 3" Sears and Mayflower scopes aren't $100 a pop scopes.. like I have been so fortunate to collect. This is going to cut into my collecting you know! I just hate that. I now had to pay $225 for one from a seller who saw that thread and somebody owes me the difference!. Might be you! KA-Ching!

When you start realizing that taking into inflation over the years these wonderful instruments are going for prices so far below new prices, often in new condition.. be grateful that you get to meet a few! I ask again WHAT DO YOU WANT? Awesome optics at great prices or a club that excludes people that you don't value until they have proved themselves (to you). Be grateful. If that is the club to be, I'm out, right now. Please let me know because I don't think/ feel the way you do, thank goodness.

I have spent 35 years in and around families and individuals that are truely elite. Real people, Politics and atheletes. Governors, Senators, Presidential hopefuls, world class runners, marathoners. The best in the field. I was there by luck not by intelligence or skill or strength, just dumb luck. When I'm told I am sending the wrong message via posts on CN I say really? just watch me! Something the elite that have actually earned the title have taught me, go with your gut. My gut tells me that we can choose to post or choose not to post when someone asks for advice, Case in point the current thread asking for value of an 8" criterion scope. First post ever DRIVE BY charge 'em a fee or shun them? Must wait 30 days? Ridiculus. Terra, take the classics forum and enjoy it. I'm giving my small part of it you. Enjoy! My expe rerience tells me you ain't running with the big dogs and never will.

And i was interested to see a few of you offered that the 6345 was overpriced. Based on what? The "last" price point was a basket case for $40 bought by a fantastic CNer in Fla. When John Siple was talking these up in 2010 they went for as high as $XXXX. After that hype they came back down to earth a bit. I bought mine on the way up but i wasn't sharing that with Leonard. Some of you that didn't have a clue were trying to. I bought mine in 2010 for $XXXX + $XXX Shipping. There I have revealed everything. If anyone here wants my Sears 6345 i'll be happy to sell it for $XXXX.XX

For my part i ain't sharing anything about prices except in P.M.s. Which if it helps a "not quite past a 30 day trial" or a "noob with just one post" I'm happy to help . There are a few wonderful posters here that are quite full of themselves. And a whole lot more that thank God, aren't. The most worthy of the title are doing better things than whining about how someone, like me, might be straight with a "driver by" sorry Joe, but that is what comes along in the keith kit.

Rant quite over. See you again sometime when you realize how smart you really never were, and how smart you could have been all along.


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herrointment
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Reged: 03/12/11

Loc: North of Hwy. 64
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? [Re: strdst]
      #5742261 - 03/19/13 03:33 AM

Interesting discussion.

Best of luck reaching a consensus.

Money changes everything.

JE


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Dave M
Postmaster
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Reged: 08/03/04

Loc: Ohio
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? [Re: strdst]
      #5742311 - 03/19/13 05:44 AM

Quote:

I propose a $500 retro active registration fee for everyone who registered to CN and has posted on the Classic Telescope Forum after IDK DataPanic in 2009 (Got yer back dude! ) This money could be kept in a fund and drawn upon when a member feels they had to pay too much for another classic scope for their "essential" collection because too much information was available on CN by members who were willing to speak and share freely to a noob poster with something to sell. "I should have gotten the Unitron for $600 but someone here suggested a price of $800! I humbly, or not, apply for a $200 grant to cover the difference between what I paid and what I wanted to pay"... No problem... Ka-ching! Sorry for the inconvience!

I also propose a sort of cuss box where if anyone speaks of prices paid for their scopes they must pay some nominal amount for tipping off the rest of the world, via internet, of price points. In the 6345 debacle Terra and Tim jumped in with what they paid for their NOT Sears 6345's. That would be a violation of the rules and incur a fine! I mean now the world knows that these 3" Sears and Mayflower scopes aren't $100 a pop scopes.. like I have been so fortunate to collect. This is going to cut into my collecting you know! I just hate that. I now had to pay $225 for one from a seller who saw that thread and somebody owes me the difference!. Might be you! KA-Ching!

When you start realizing that taking into inflation over the years these wonderful instruments are going for prices so far below new prices, often in new condition.. be grateful that you get to meet a few! I ask again WHAT DO YOU WANT? Awesome optics at great prices or a club that excludes people that you don't value until they have proved themselves (to you). Be grateful. If that is the club to be, I'm out, right now. Please let me know because I don't think/ feel the way you do, thank goodness.

I have spent 35 years in and around families and individuals that are truely elite. Real people, Politics and atheletes. Governors, Senators, Presidential hopefuls, world class runners, marathoners. The best in the field. I was there by luck not by intelligence or skill or strength, just dumb luck. When I'm told I am sending the wrong message via posts on CN I say really? just watch me! Something the elite that have actually earned the title have taught me, go with your gut. My gut tells me that we can choose to post or choose not to post when someone asks for advice, Case in point the current thread asking for value of an 8" criterion scope. First post ever DRIVE BY charge 'em a fee or shun them? Must wait 30 days? Ridiculus. Terra, take the classics forum and enjoy it. I'm giving my small part of it you. Enjoy! My expe rerience tells me you ain't running with the big dogs and never will.

And i was interested to see a few of you offered that the 6345 was overpriced. Based on what? The "last" price point was a basket case for $40 bought by a fantastic CNer in Fla. When John Siple was talking these up in 2010 they went for as high as $XXXX. After that hype they came back down to earth a bit. I bought mine on the way up but i wasn't sharing that with Leonard. Some of you that didn't have a clue were trying to. I bought mine in 2010 for $XXXX + $XXX Shipping. There I have revealed everything. If anyone here wants my Sears 6345 i'll be happy to sell it for $XXXX.XX

For my part i ain't sharing anything about prices except in P.M.s. Which if it helps a "not quite past a 30 day trial" or a "noob with just one post" I'm happy to help . There are a few wonderful posters here that are quite full of themselves. And a whole lot more that thank God, aren't. The most worthy of the title are doing better things than whining about how someone, like me, might be straight with a "driver by" sorry Joe, but that is what comes along in the keith kit.

Rant quite over. See you again sometime when you realize how smart you really never were, and how smart you could have been all along.




Really!


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turk123
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 07/09/10

Loc: N.E. Ohio
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? [Re: Datapanic]
      #5742449 - 03/19/13 08:49 AM

Quote:



What's the point? None. That was back in the BBS days, but the rules still make sense today. Most BBS's were dedicated to the Free Exchange of Information, especially RBBS-PC, which I worked alot with for many years. I had a lot to do with that kind of communication back then and still believe that even though BBS's are mostly gone now, the internet users should still be allowed, within means, to raise their hand and post a question or comment for anything they want. Asking a question about the value of a classic scope on a classic scope forum is within reason to me. Where else would you go if you had no idea what a scope was worth and wanted to sell it? It comes with the territory! We say there's no such thing as a stupid question. Well, there are annoying questions for sure, but remember that the person asking it may have no idea. Instead of banning their ability to ask something you don't want to hear, either ignore them or just tell them flat out, without being rude, that you don't like those kinds of questions. But remember the other old saying about first impressions...




I agree whole heartily with you. Up to several months ago I began posting here and I would consider myself a newbie. I don't think I posted any "price" questions, but I did ask follow up questions in PMs and emails to a few of you. Everyone was very nice and helped quite a bit. That is why this is such a great forum of ideas and info. I've belonged to a lot of forums and have to say, when the fights break out over restricting ideas, it no longer fits the name. A forum is a place for all of us to come together and share ideas regardless of our experience level. For a forum to survive, one needs to nurture new members and to welcome them. When we stop encouraging new participants, the forum will slowly stop functioning and disappear. So, thank to all that have helped me so far. I appreciate it very much and I will remember it the next time someone asks me "How much did you pay for that?"

Turk


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terraclarke
Post Laureate
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Reged: 05/29/12

Loc: Just South of the Mason-Dixon ...
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? [Re: turk123]
      #5742569 - 03/19/13 10:18 AM

Just a point of clarification. When I used the term 'newbie' I used it in the strict sense that CN uses it officially. If you look in your name box to the left it will show the number of posts you have made. If you have made nay one, up to some very small number, say 10 or 20, it will say "newbie" under the name. When I made my original post on this matter, I was speaking in general of the type of poster that was engendered in one, particularly recent, controversial (look at the debate it inspired), and still questionable (look at what is going on with regard to the pricing of said item currently for sale. It was in this context:
Title: Newbie
No. Of posts: (1)
Paraphrase: "Hey, look what I found! What will you or some 'pidgeon' give me for it?"
E-mail: false
Behavior: IMHO most questionable to date.

This inspired a lot of negativity. I was irked by it, as we're a number of others. I am for my part, sorry for that.

My subsequent response was with regard to a possible solution, which I made after several PMs with other members. It was NOT phrased in should and would, but instead with "perhaps" and "in my opinion".

We are all entitled to our opinion, and we needn't get smug or nasty when criticizing others, no matter how "tongue in cheek" or veiled that is. What is wrong with just others saying also perhaps, or IMO, instead of smug remarks.

I think that even in a forum that is in general, as congenial and helpful as this one, when we are sitting in front of a screen instead of sitting face to face with a friend, it is easier to say things that others might consider hurtful and that we ourselves might later regret. Yes, I did this too in my initial response to a particular person; I regretted it and I deleted it. I gave out misleading information about the worth of said product, based on a weak consensus that some of us came to in an earlier thread on this topic.

When I first joined this forum, I remained a lurking member for four or five months without ever posting but always reading and absorbing. During that time, I never saw or read anything like several, I say several, not just one, threads that got downright nasty within the last two months. If I had, I might never have entered the forum as an active member. Yes, many of us have gotten cabin fever over the past months, this has been the worst 'astronomy' winter I can remember in recent years; I have gotten antsy with it and perhaps others have as well. Still, that is no excuse for rude behavior.

Perhaps, and I did say 'perhaps', read 'maybe', in MY opinion, we should consider lots of good potential members as being like I was, lurking, and sampling the waters before diving in.

Let's all (and I am including myself in this) maybe, try and be positive rather than negative, and helpful rather than hurtful, giving consideration to what we write before we push the send button.

My mom always tried to teach me, if you can't say something good about something or someone, then best not say anything at all. She also said never discuss religion or politics with friends. Perhaps we need to add money to that list because every one of these things recently has been about money in one way or another. LOL!

If we need to rant, then lets try and rant via a PM to a CN friend that might share our view or help us to change that view.

These are just my thoughts on the matter and I mean them in the best of intentions.

Peace and love to all of you. You are all my friends.



Terra


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