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Equipment Discussions >> Classic Telescopes

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Joe Cepleur
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/18/10

Loc: Dark North Woods
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: starman876]
      #5744247 - 03/19/13 11:16 PM

At risk of rocking the boat after things are apparently back to normal, and so with apologies and a willingness to be ignored, it has saddened me that the friction that exploded upon Leonard's visit with his Sears passed without a real understanding of what occurred. When people are truly outraged, hunt long enough, and the underlying issues will typically differ from those seemingly being argued. Upset over money? Maybe. Outraged? Look for a perceived lack of respect.

This forum exists for mutual aid and companionship in an unusual interest. This is the best source in the world for information about classic telescopes. Newcomers who want to extract prices from us only to pursue their own selfish greed are disrespectful of us. When a knowledgeable person quotes a price, that's valuable. It is, in itself, worth money. This means that, in receiving it free, the recipient must offer something in return. At the very least, that must include respect and gratitude. Those who fail that test are unworthy, and should be sent to the auction sites to test prices for themselves.

If a particular member does not see this dynamic, we could say we all have a right to our opinions, or we could say that it is equally upsetting to watch a member not see that a misguided philosophy of openness is prone to predatory abuse by the greedy. What begins with disrespect from an outsider (as opposed to respect from a grateful, contributing, welcome newcomer) then transforms into disrespect from an insider who says, essentially, "Drop dead, fellow member; it you won't take the bait, I will." That earns this forum a reputation for being an easy mark, where more of the same may be perpetrated in the future.

Never mind that the seller had to visit 600 yard sales to find the merchandise, or that he contributes to the community by bringing some estate piece from the dumpster and back into circulation. Every business deal has two components: the item being sold, and the manners of the seller. Unworthy sellers do not deserve a buyer's money. Those who insult us do not deserve our help. Better to walk from the sale. Better to keep this forum dignified and worthy of the public's esteem. Better to feel your friends will both welcome newcomers and quietly discipline hucksters. Servicing scheisters won't cut it.

The solution is imperfect, but simple. There will be mistakes. Forgive your fellow member's misjudgments. Certainly, any huckster might concoct a clever story to trick us into divulging information. Shame on those who do. How I wish everyone would adhere to this: When we have good reason to believe that a newcomer has fair reason to respectfully ask the value of a telescope, and may even be willing to contribute to this forum in the future, graciously quote a price. But, if we're being used, send the visitor to the auction sites. Protect the dignity of everyone's knowledge, and allow this valuable free service to be a complement to the worthy. Most new visitors will be worthy, so the forum will remain friendly and welcoming.

With thanks to the moderators for allowing this discussion, this thread asks whether the prices of classic telescopes are rising. This much is sure: No telescope is worth the price of stripping the dignity from the members of this forum, either by making fools of us by helping the unappreciative who would use us, or by starting a civil war of words while trying to protect ourselves from the abuse. Let the unworthy pass us by quietly for the auction sites. In a world filled with potential classic astronomers, egalitarians such as ourselves can easily find far better friends.


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Datapanic
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/17/09

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: Joe Cepleur]
      #5744296 - 03/20/13 01:06 AM

snip snip snip...

Quote:

..This forum exists for mutual aid and companionship in an unusual topic. This is the best source in the world for information about classic telescopes. Newcomers who want to extract prices from us only to pursue their own selfish greed are disrespectful of us. When a knowledgeable person quotes a price, that's valuable. It is, in itself, worth money. This means that, in receiving it free, the recipient must offer something in return. At the very least, that must include respect and gratitude. Those who fail that test are unworthy, and should be sent to the auction sites to test prices for themselves....




Allow me to refute - this forum exists, and I quote, to be

Quote:

... The place to discuss older telescopes. Antiques, flea market finds, and scopes from grandpa's attic. From the 1780's to the 1980's - refractors, reflectors, and early SCT's. Fine classics like Clark and Zeiss to nostalgic favorites like Sears, Cave, Edmund, and Unitron are fair game. Discussing all aspects of restoring, collecting, and observing with older scopes.




Newcommers who want to know what the value is of a telescope they aquired are "greedy and disrespectful"? And they should give "respect and gratitude"? They're "unworthy"? Just astounding. Pushing values like that, although with merit, is not going to happen on this or any other public forum. It approaches politics, even.

Furthermore, from the quote above from the synopsis of this forum, "all aspects" includes discusing what a scope is worth. If the owners of Cloudy Nights wish to exclude such discussion from this and other forums, then so be it, but now, it is fair game. It is called "Telscope Reviews", afterall. Myself and countless others have contributed valuable information, for free, on this and the other forums of Cloudy Nights, PMs in Cloudy Nights and elsewhere with absolutely no expectation of any kind momentary gain, simply because we enjoy it. If anyone is so above that level to freely share any kind of information here, then keep it and go sit down - we don't need it anyway, especially if it comes with stipulations that require a reason to answer a ligitimate question.

I, for one am happy to share what I know and have learned throughout years of tinkering with scopes and do not expect anything in return for the information I share. I'm happy enough to know that I at least have or will help out someone with whatever they are doing and save them some grief from difficulties with a scope - be it a person buying or selling a scope or restoring one.

I could disclose what I paid for the many scopes I've aquired, overhauled or sold here in the Mecca of Telscopes Land (Tucson), base the value of something simiular to answer someone's request for an estimation of value, but I'm afraid if I did, I would really rock off the real greedy persons who are the ones here trying to control prices with no authenticity.

Get off the high horse! Enjoy the hobby and stop telling people how to think, behave and what to do!


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Ron500E
member


Reged: 06/01/12

Loc: Illinois, near the River Styx
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: Datapanic]
      #5744460 - 03/20/13 03:57 AM

I am a car guy, let me give an example of "someone looking for only a price."
The brakes on one of my cars (500E) are somewhat useless for that model, but quite desirable for another model (190E) from the same company. There's pretty much no crossover of members from one forum to the other.
I decided to place a free ad in the 190 forum. I could not because of the 30 post minimum. I asked on the forum what they were worth ($325) and got the obligatory "only out for money speech" even though I felt that $275. was a fair price. I was basically told to go to the auction site. I did and sold them for %500 to a dealer.
Instead of these ending up in the hands of an enthusiast they went to someone who will further add a profit and resell them.
I had no idea what they were worth, I "guessed" at $325 and for a quick sale to an enthusiast decided upon $275. I didn't want to sell them for $50 nor did I want to put a price of $1000 and get ridiculed by those who were able to read my mind and intentions.
My newbie question met with all sorts of accusations, even though I have several thousand posts in the other forums. Some people truly do not know what something is worth and they ask for guidance, not to disrespect anyone but to price it fairly. They don't want to hear that someone "stole it at that good price." Nor do they want to keep something around that they have no interest in having.
Just my opinion. I would suggest that if someone sees a nice telescope at a bargain price on their local Craigslist that they offer market value instead. But for some reason, I doubt that anyone would do that.
Kind Regards,
Ron


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Masvingo
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 01/10/12

Loc: Ayrshire, Scotland
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: John Higbee]
      #5744468 - 03/20/13 04:09 AM

Beautiful sunst shot, John.



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Masvingo
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 01/10/12

Loc: Ayrshire, Scotland
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: gelkin]
      #5744471 - 03/20/13 04:10 AM

Wow, nice collection Gerald!



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Masvingo
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 01/10/12

Loc: Ayrshire, Scotland
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: starman876]
      #5744479 - 03/20/13 04:18 AM

Johann, I'd check your keyboard, you seem to have an intermittent short between the 'L' and 'S' keys and the 'R' and 'P' keys.

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Joe Cepleur
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/18/10

Loc: Dark North Woods
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: Datapanic]
      #5744570 - 03/20/13 07:08 AM

Quote:

Newcommers who want to know what the value is of a telescope they aquired are "greedy and disrespectful"? And they should give "respect and gratitude"? They're "unworthy"? Just astounding.




Please read what I said prior to commenting, and do not attribute to me things I clearly did not say. I explicitly stated that it is fine to discuss prices with newcomers, yet is is also fine to withhold discussion from those few who are "greedy and disrespectful," who are reasonably assessed to take without giving.

Quote:

Get off the high horse! Enjoy the hobby and stop telling people how to think, behave and what to do!




Except, of course, that if people are offended by drive-bys, tell them they are obliged to suffer the indignity, or, more simply, that they should not feel as they do. At the end of this discussion, there remains a large contingent of silenced members who find drive-bys offensive, and who wish to treat others, and be treated by them, with what they believe are everyday good manners.

Realistically, it is evident that there will be no consensus on how to handle drive-bys, despite the consensus that we can often recognize them when they occur. Those who feel the forum would be better served not by mind-reading, but by restraint in those circumstances, and who are quite willing to ask a few questions of the seller to determine intent (however imperfectly), are effectively out-voted by those who are not similarly offended. The row appears to have been based not so much on how we are treated by drivers-by, but by the frustration with the internal disagreement.

Datapanic, wasn't it you who so perfectly restored the giant cave found trashed in a field California by a woman riding a horse? That is one of the great threads of all time. You might be surprised how often I think of it. Maybe it seems odd, but I see my willingness, any member's willingness, to cross those they admire on an issue offending many as a compliment to the importance of everyone on the forum. There would be nothing to say if there were no hope of being heard, even if no one member, or no large contingent, always succeeds in persuading the whole world. Thank you for the hearing, and thanks to everyone who, at various times, has helped me with pricing. If I have not yet returned the favor, it is only because I am still insufficiently expert!

Other than one last thought in a separate post below, I have nothing else to say on this topic.

Edited by Joe Cepleur (03/20/13 08:11 AM)


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Joe Cepleur
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/18/10

Loc: Dark North Woods
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: Ron500E]
      #5744583 - 03/20/13 07:22 AM

Quote:

I am a car guy, let me give an example of "someone looking for only a price."
The brakes on one of my cars (500E) are somewhat useless for that model, but quite desirable for another model (190E) from the same company. There's pretty much no crossover of members from one forum to the other.
I decided to place a free ad in the 190 forum. I could not because of the 30 post minimum. I asked on the forum what they were worth ($325) and got the obligatory "only out for money speech" even though I felt that $275. was a fair price. I was basically told to go to the auction site. I did and sold them for %500 to a dealer.
Instead of these ending up in the hands of an enthusiast they went to someone who will further add a profit and resell them.
I had no idea what they were worth, I "guessed" at $325 and for a quick sale to an enthusiast decided upon $275. I didn't want to sell them for $50 nor did I want to put a price of $1000 and get ridiculed by those who were able to read my mind and intentions.
My newbie question met with all sorts of accusations, even though I have several thousand posts in the other forums. Some people truly do not know what something is worth and they ask for guidance, not to disrespect anyone but to price it fairly. They don't want to hear that someone "stole it at that good price." Nor do they want to keep something around that they have no interest in having.
Just my opinion. I would suggest that if someone sees a nice telescope at a bargain price on their local Craigslist that they offer market value instead. But for some reason, I doubt that anyone would do that.
Kind Regards,
Ron




That is an excellent story for illustrating the dilemma. What would have happened if you had introduced yourself as a longstanding member of the 500E forum who wanted to get the brakes from a 190E into the hands of an enthusiast, and needed help setting a fair price?

For what it's worth, when I bought my Tasco 7te-5 off Craig's List, I told the seller it was worth far more than he was asking, but that what he was asking was what I could afford. I assured him that I wanted it for my own use, and would not resell it at a profit. He was happy with that. It had been his wife's grandfather's. Their motivation was to see it become as beloved again as it had been to the grandfather.


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kansas skies
sage


Reged: 12/02/12

Loc: Kansas, USA
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: Joe Cepleur]
      #5744597 - 03/20/13 07:39 AM

I was taught many long years ago to treat others as you would like to be treated.

Suppose that ten percent of the new members come here with self serving intentions that we consider beneath our dignity. If we treat them no differently than the other ninety percent, then the needs of the greater good will have been served, and we need not feel compromised.

Bill


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starman876
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 04/28/08

Loc: VA
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: kansas skies]
      #5744748 - 03/20/13 09:39 AM

one of the problems we all have with these classic telescopes is that we fall in love with them and therefore find it hard to part with them. I know that I have fallen in love with certain Unitron products that I now cherish. The shelf light that goes in the 4" mount, the super Unihex and the 60mm eyepiece. those beautiful 4" equatorial mounts, and that elusive mechanical clock drive. I am sure we all have our favorite classic part that we desire. some of us are willing to pay just about anything to obtain some of these cherished parts which, we saw on ebay recently where a 4" unibalance went for over $600. I know I went and hugged the ones I have after I saw that I am sure that as time passes we will see more of this as we all finally say, darn, I want that and I have to have it and will pay just about anything to get this wanting feeling satisfied. Which, is what is happening.

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Rich (RLTYS)Moderator
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 12/18/04

Loc: New York (Long Island)
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: starman876]
      #5744758 - 03/20/13 09:46 AM

To All, this thread continues to go off topic in 20 different directions and not always friendly. Lets have more respect for each other and keep the discussion friendly or I'll lock this thread, as I feel this thread is getting out of control.

Rich (RLTYS)


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terraclarke
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 05/29/12

Loc: Just South of the Mason-Dixon ...
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: starman876]
      #5744767 - 03/20/13 09:52 AM

Women shop, men buy

However this is one woman who is content to not have the last word on this topic and I am content with my last comment and for me, am happy to leave it at that and not continue the debate.

High horse or low horse, ultimately its all about astronomy and what an enjoyable hobby it is.

As for things, I'm getting pretty content with my collection as it stands


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starman876
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 04/28/08

Loc: VA
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? [Re: Rich (RLTYS)]
      #5744769 - 03/20/13 09:53 AM



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BigC
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 09/29/10

Loc: SE Indiana
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? [Re: starman876]
      #5744858 - 03/20/13 10:53 AM

By the way, a Sears 6345 ,that may or may not be the one that ignited this discussion,is now offered on the ebay with a starting price of $1200.

I have learned one thing here: unless I get lucky at an auction or yard sale myself,no 6345 is likely to find a home here.The more modern,less collectible, but functional Meade 395 will have to hold "place of pride" in the 90mm refractor class here.But who knows? On the other hand by acquiring knowledge from extensive reading at multiple sites and library books(not saving time by just bluntly demanding others price my haves or wants)I have been able to recognize and buy several scopes (and other items) at bargain prices.But I also seldom buy for resale,preferring items that appeal to me personally.

It is still a bit much to expect a potential buyer to inform the seller who is unwilling to do his research,of the current market value of any item.


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AllanDystrup
sage
*****

Reged: 09/27/12

Loc: Denmark
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? [Re: starman876]
      #5744878 - 03/20/13 11:05 AM Attachment (3 downloads)

Quote:

one of the problems we all have with these classic telescopes is that we fall in love with them...




amen


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starman876
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 04/28/08

Loc: VA
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? [Re: AllanDystrup]
      #5745020 - 03/20/13 12:17 PM

And therefore they become priceless, well, at least we seem to think so after we restore them to their former glory. If you think how much time some of use spend restoring a telescope we retrieve from the local dump or field, or someones back yard sitting abandoned and then take that gem in the rough and bring it back to life. Howe can you put a price on that? And usually, right after you are done here comes one up for sale in mint condition for a fraction of the cost you have invested in the scope you just restored and someone scoopes it up and takes pictures of it and shows it here in this forum. All you can do is watch

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kansas skies
sage


Reged: 12/02/12

Loc: Kansas, USA
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? [Re: starman876]
      #5745075 - 03/20/13 12:46 PM

They will only get my classic telescopes when they pry them from my cold, dead fingers...

Bill


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Dave M
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 08/03/04

Loc: Ohio
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: terraclarke]
      #5745125 - 03/20/13 01:17 PM

Quote:

Women shop, men buy






But they shop till they drop , us guys know what we want, buy it then get the heck out of Dodge..


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starman876
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 04/28/08

Loc: VA
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: Dave M]
      #5745136 - 03/20/13 01:23 PM

I shopped till I dropped buying classic scopes. Actually I shopped until I ran out of room and then I still bought more. I cannot stop

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terraclarke
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 05/29/12

Loc: Just South of the Mason-Dixon ...
Re: Classic telescope prices on the rise? new [Re: starman876]
      #5745215 - 03/20/13 02:01 PM

"And therefore they become priceless, well, at least we seem to think so after we restore them to their former glory. If you think how much time some of use spend restoring a telescope we retrieve from the local dump or field, or someones back yard sitting abandoned and then take that gem in the rough and bring it back to life. Howe can you put a price on that? And usually, right after you are done here comes one up for sale in mint condition for a fraction of the cost you have invested in the scope you just restored and someone scoopes it up and takes pictures of it and shows it here in this forum. All you can do is watch."- JG



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