Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home pageAstronomics discounts for Cloudy Nights members
· Get a Cloudy Nights T-Shirt · Submit a Review / Article

Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums

Privacy Policy | Please read our Terms of Service | Signup and Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu… uh, User

Speciality Forums >> Science! Astronomy & Space Exploration, and Others

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | (show all)
Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Why "They" are not here yet
      #5737450 - 03/16/13 10:04 PM

Little OOOPPPSSSS on reproduction. They died out on the way.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-57574712-71/sex-in-space-may-be-dangerous-s...

/Ira


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Jason H.
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/23/07

Loc: Central Florida
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5737512 - 03/16/13 10:40 PM

Quote:

Little OOOPPPSSSS on reproduction. They died out on the way.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-57574712-71/sex-in-space-may-be-dangerous-s...
/Ira




Ahh, add another to the myriad answers to the Fermi-Hart question.

Regards, Jason H.
_____________________
"The existence of extraterrestrials is not an issue that can be determined on the basis of theory, no matter how compelling the arguments. SETI by definition is an experimental science." - Frank Drake


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Jason H.]
      #5739561 - 03/17/13 08:17 PM

Of course, if they really did master interstellar space flight, they probably already solved this little problem along the way. But still...

/Ira


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rick Woods
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5739745 - 03/17/13 10:01 PM

What makes you think they're not here?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5739819 - 03/17/13 10:33 PM

Men in Black, right?

/Ira


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Andy Taylor
Twisted, but in a Good Way
*****

Reged: 09/24/08

Loc: Epsom - UK
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5740439 - 03/18/13 10:48 AM

Quote:

Of course, if they really did master interstellar space flight, they probably already solved this little problem along the way. But still...

/Ira




Blimey - that would look great on my birth certificate...

Place of Birth - interstellar space


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Andy Taylor]
      #5741196 - 03/18/13 05:20 PM

"Second star to the right and straight on 'till morning."

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rick Woods
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5741306 - 03/18/13 06:07 PM

I think one of "them" lives down the street from me.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mich_al
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/10/09

Loc: Rural central lower Michigan ...
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5741855 - 03/18/13 09:52 PM

Quote:

I think one of "them" lives down the street from me.




Hey... Wait, I live down the street from you.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: mich_al]
      #5741959 - 03/18/13 10:32 PM

I just wonder "they", while en route, address the most pressing question of all...

"Are we there yet?"
"Are we there yet?"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5742326 - 03/19/13 06:22 AM

And, "Can we stop? I gotta go to the bathroom."
Just added 10 light years to the travel time.

/Ira


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Otto Piechowski
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/20/05

Loc: Lexington, KY
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5742739 - 03/19/13 11:42 AM

The most reasonable explanation is that we have not crossed paths within historical memory due to the geometries of scale of the universe.

There are two other options which are less likely, but possible. The first is that there is no (or very little) extra-terrestrial sentience in the universe. The second is that they are here or have been here or both and for altruistic reasons (i.e. anonymous helpfulness) choose not to make themselves detectable.

These, and other very interesting and informative options have been discussed in the thread The Silence is Deafening.

Regards to all,

Otto


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hm insulators
Post Laureate


Reged: 01/22/07

Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5742764 - 03/19/13 11:51 AM

Quote:

And, "Can we stop? I gotta go to the bathroom."
Just added 10 light years to the travel time.

/Ira




Don't forget, "Mommy, Togg just threw up!"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rick Woods
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: hm insulators]
      #5742931 - 03/19/13 01:14 PM

They're probably wondering why we're not there yet. Maybe we don't exist?

That would explain a lot...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
shawnhar
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/25/10

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5743309 - 03/19/13 03:57 PM

Quote:

The most reasonable explanation is that we have not crossed paths within historical memory due to the geometries of scale of the universe.
Otto



Time being the big one, even if there are "dudes sportin' round the verse", it's only a few hunderd measly million years separating us from T-rex...don't see those running around either.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5743765 - 03/19/13 07:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The most reasonable explanation is that we have not crossed paths within historical memory due to the geometries of scale of the universe.
Otto



Time being the big one, even if there are "dudes sportin' round the verse", it's only a few hunderd measly million years separating us from T-rex...don't see those running around either.




They left to go see "Them".

/Ira


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
wirenut
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/21/06

Loc: m'dale Pa
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5745779 - 03/20/13 05:48 PM

maybe we are the first life forms to achieve this state of being and tech.
Maybe they have observed the way we handled finding new lands/people in our past or our tendency towards violence and decided it's not worth the risk.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: wirenut]
      #5746966 - 03/21/13 06:59 AM

"Why" isn't Occam's Razor applied to the answers to this Q?

The geometries of scale answer is the simplest and most elegant.

all the others require a huge amount of speculation on science we don't understand yet (and won't for some time) and anthropomorphize(ing) of aliens and some stolen plots from sci-fi.

BIG universe, puny humans..


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Jarad
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 04/28/03

Loc: Atlanta, GA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Mister T]
      #5747051 - 03/21/13 08:19 AM

It has been. The scale issue has come up in every thread on this topic. Occam has shaved it bald.

The problem is bald Occam is boring. It's more fun to hang out with mullet Occam, and think up hairy scenarios.



Jarad


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
StarWars
Mr. Postmaster Man
*****

Reged: 11/26/03

Loc: At the Gym >Spudtastic<
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Jarad]
      #5748353 - 03/21/13 07:24 PM




Zex in Space... Next question..


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Mister T]
      #5748726 - 03/21/13 11:13 PM

Quote:

"Why" isn't Occam's Razor applied to the answers to this Q?

The geometries of scale answer is the simplest and most elegant.

all the others require a huge amount of speculation on science we don't understand yet (and won't for some time) and anthropomorphize(ing) of aliens and some stolen plots from sci-fi.

BIG universe, puny humans..




The problem with this thinking is in our hubris we think we are the end of evolution instead of just another step.

Scale is dependent on TWO things: Lifespan and distance. Two planets 500 light years apart is beyond humans ability to travel at practical velocities. However these same velocities and the trip itself my be trivial to a lifeform that can live 100,000 years.

Or, to put another way, to a fly that lives one day a journey to the end of the block takes a lifetime yet to us humans it is merely a short jaunt.

Everything is relative....

Pesse (This space for rent) Mist


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Pess]
      #5749105 - 03/22/13 06:38 AM

Indeed, if the "Singularity" ever arrives, time will become irrelevant. As long as it doesn't take Forever, it will be doable.

But in that case, "Why aren't they here?" Because the Singularity never arrived.

/Ira


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Jarad
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 04/28/03

Loc: Atlanta, GA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5749120 - 03/22/13 07:00 AM

That's the thing with singularities and asymptotes - no matter how far you go, you never quite get there.

They keep you waiting longer than Heinz ketchup...



Jarad


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Jarad]
      #5749496 - 03/22/13 11:29 AM

Quote:


But in that case, "Why aren't they here?" Because the Singularity never arrived.




The trouble is we don't know what 'They' is yet.

Would we stop and introduce ourselves to a planet full of Dinosaurs?

Pesse (To an Alien we are, perhaps, two steps below contemp.) Misr


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
shawnhar
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/25/10

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Jarad]
      #5749985 - 03/22/13 03:39 PM Attachment (10 downloads)

Quote:

It has been. The scale issue has come up in every thread on this topic. Occam has shaved it bald.

The problem is bald Occam is boring. It's more fun to hang out with mullet Occam, and think up hairy scenarios.



Jarad




Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Jarad
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 04/28/03

Loc: Atlanta, GA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5750180 - 03/22/13 05:01 PM

That's what I'm talkin' about!

Now there's who looks like he knows how to party!



Jarad

Edited by Jarad (03/22/13 05:02 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Andy Taylor
Twisted, but in a Good Way
*****

Reged: 09/24/08

Loc: Epsom - UK
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Jarad]
      #5751285 - 03/23/13 07:45 AM

Quote:

That's what I'm talkin' about!

Now there's who looks like he knows how to party!




Jarad




looks more partied out to me...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
star drop
contra contrail
*****

Reged: 02/02/08

Loc: Snow Plop, WNY
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Andy Taylor]
      #5751549 - 03/23/13 10:57 AM

"Why "They" are not here yet"

Maybe we smell funny to them.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Radom
member


Reged: 06/15/04

Loc: Central Oklahoma
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: star drop]
      #5752269 - 03/23/13 04:43 PM

Answer is some combination of the following:

We aren't fattened up enough, yet.

They are not ready to eat, yet.

(Ever feel as if you're just a part of a herd??)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Radom]
      #5752373 - 03/23/13 05:53 PM

if they think we aren't fattened up enough yet, then they ain't been to walmart lately

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
WaterMasterAdministrator
Moat Keeper
*****

Reged: 02/17/10

Loc: Southeast Idaho, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Mister T]
      #5752590 - 03/23/13 08:02 PM

Quote:

if they think we aren't fattened up enough yet, then they ain't been to walmart lately




Maybe that's the problem - they like lean meat.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rick Woods
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: WaterMaster]
      #5752711 - 03/23/13 09:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

if they think we aren't fattened up enough yet, then they ain't been to walmart lately




Maybe that's the problem - they like lean meat.




Walmart is where "they" hang out!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5752775 - 03/23/13 09:35 PM

If they haven't been to Walmart, they obviously aren't "here" yet.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Staredge
member


Reged: 04/05/12

Loc: Germantown, MD
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5752825 - 03/23/13 09:56 PM

Another thought I had heard was that any civilization that developed enough technologically to consider interstellar travel probably blew itself up before they could get there. Considering the state of the world we live in.........

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Pess]
      #5752843 - 03/23/13 10:06 PM

Quote:


The problem with this thinking is in our hubris we think we are the end of evolution instead of just another step.





If we don't get lucky, we just may indeed be the end of evolution -- our own, at least.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Joad
Wordsmith
*****

Reged: 03/22/05

Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Staredge]
      #5752912 - 03/23/13 10:49 PM

Quote:

Another thought I had heard was that any civilization that developed enough technologically to consider interstellar travel probably blew itself up before they could get there. Considering the state of the world we live in.........




That is Carl Sagan's hypothesis.

There is another possibility. How old is our own Solar System? Five billion years or so? Well, until the last century earth would not have counted as a technologically advanced planet. And that rapid explosion of technology that began in very late 18th-century Europe would probably not have happened if the Mongols had not once but at least twice decided not to complete their medieval invasions of Europe (Genghis Khan and Tamerlaine both turned back from what would have been sure thing conquests).

And we also know that stars have a shelf life. The first stars had a very short one, but with the later stars how many solar system generations have there been so far? Two? Not quite three?

My points are that:

a. Technological development of life is not inevitable

and

b. Whatever technological development there has been universe wide, a lot of it is likely to have disappeared with the disappearance of solar systems.

Then there is:

c. The universe, as Douglas Adams put it, is a really mind-bogglingly big place. We aren't "there" yet; why should anyone be "here"?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Joad]
      #5754708 - 03/24/13 06:40 PM

Consider this: The universe is 13.78 billion years old. Only for the last 45 years have we been capable of space flight. We still have zero capabilities for interstellar flight. Give it time. Another few billion years or so and we may finally get "There". Or They will get "Here".

/Ira


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5754889 - 03/24/13 08:16 PM

In a few billion years "there" won't be there any more.

it will be out past there.

Eventually you won't be able to get there from here!!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Staredge]
      #5756718 - 03/25/13 06:04 PM

Quote:

Another thought I had heard was that any civilization that developed enough technologically to consider interstellar travel probably blew itself up before they could get there. Considering the state of the world we live in.........




So then where are these extinct civilizations Voyager probes? The Universe has been around long enough for them to get here.

Pesse (Wouldn't it be cool for us to bounce a radar off of some 'really weird' asteroid only to discover it was a long lost probe from some long lost civilization wandering along in a long lost way?) Mist


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Pess]
      #5756720 - 03/25/13 06:07 PM

'They' are out there.

Pesse ('They' just don't give a rats azz about us.) mist


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Pess]
      #5756811 - 03/25/13 06:49 PM

latest estimates are that there are 100 billion planets in the milky way.

say it takes an hour to determine if any one planet is harboring a civilization.

that means it will take 11.4 million years to check them all out.

were a needle in a needle in a haystack in a in haystack of haystacks


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hm insulators
Post Laureate


Reged: 01/22/07

Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Mister T]
      #5758096 - 03/26/13 12:21 PM

Quote:

In a few billion years "there" won't be there any more.

it will be out past there.

Eventually you won't be able to get there from here!!




Or maybe, as somebody once said about California, "There is no 'there' there."


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Joad
Wordsmith
*****

Reged: 03/22/05

Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: hm insulators]
      #5758221 - 03/26/13 01:12 PM

Gertrude Stein said that about Oakland, the city, not California, the state.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Joad]
      #5759319 - 03/26/13 10:31 PM

Observation: We are separated from Neanderthals by roughly 40,000 years.

Speculation: If there is intelligent life out there near us, statistically speaking it would be a civilization much older than us relative to the above 40,00 year mark.

Rhetorical question: Would we, on coming across a planet of Neanderthals, attempt to communicate with them as a culture? Compare our art with their cave drawings? Host a wine & Wooly mammoth roast?

Speculative conclusion: 'They' would view us much as we would view a culture of Neanderthals if we stumbled across them. Whatever 'they' are is no longer what 'us' is even if they were us once.

Pesse (Sometimes the picture in the rear view mirror is not a pretty sight) Mist


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
CounterWeight
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Palo alto, CA.
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Pess]
      #5759635 - 03/27/13 06:51 AM

They are here. Take a really, really good look at the UPS trucks and the folks that drive them. It's just that we are all so used to seeing UPS trucks that we don't realize that every day there are more of them. And yes they still wait until you leave home to come by...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: CounterWeight]
      #5759667 - 03/27/13 07:34 AM

Why are We the "Neanderthals"? Maybe They are. Why might We not be the leading edge of cosmic evolution? There's no evidence one way or the other, so why not?

/Ira


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5759754 - 03/27/13 08:38 AM

we might be, but statistically that is a long shot.

and for purposes of THEM contacting us (topic of thread) they would have to be MORE advanced no??


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Mister T]
      #5759879 - 03/27/13 09:56 AM

Yes, They would need to be more advanced, which is the reason They are not here yet. We just may be the leading edge of cosmic evolution. As to the statistics, they can be manipulated in various ways. There's a book (i'll find its title later) that says the statistical likelihood of other life in our galaxy is so small as to be almost certainly zero. How's that for statistics?

/Ira


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
WaterMasterAdministrator
Moat Keeper
*****

Reged: 02/17/10

Loc: Southeast Idaho, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5760059 - 03/27/13 11:43 AM

The more we learn about life on this planet, how well self-replicating molecules can adapt to varying (and extreme) conditions, the more likely it is that 'life' could exist elsewhere.

However, life existed for a long, long time on this planet before those self-replicating molecules adapted to a changing environment sufficiently to produce us. Our speculations regarding intelligent life, and the calculation(s) of probabilities that it may have evolved elsewhere, typically do not include the underlying calculation of the probability that we evolved.

Do I think there's 'intelligent' life somewhere out there? Yes. But, as is so often said, space is a really big place. So I'm not losing any sleep worrying about their arrival.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
shawnhar
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/25/10

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: WaterMaster]
      #5760448 - 03/27/13 02:19 PM

It is also worth noting that considering our own sample of one... you aren't going to get off your planet unless you are willing to rape it for all it's rescources.
An intelligent animal living within the constraints of the system that developed to support life in the 1st place...that ain't us.
We kill it, dam it and dig it up on a massive scale just to have light bulbs, cell phones and cheap jeans. (and a few rockets)
From what I understad you need the energy of a small star to go running around the galaxy... just sayin


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5760591 - 03/27/13 03:17 PM

It's worth mentioning again that as adaptable as life in the general sense is, individual species are most likely to be adapted very narrowly to a specific and limited environment. "They" are not life in the largest sense, "they" are a species of life which has its own history, its own specialties, and its own limitations. It will have experienced billions of years of natural selection, with the addition of another interval of artificial selection, to adapt to an environment that is not Earth, or any part of it.

That fact alone is enough to make me skeptical that "they" could just blend in to the background and not be noticed here.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5760597 - 03/27/13 03:18 PM

Quote:

From what I understad you need the energy of a small star to go running around the galaxy... just sayin




Not necessarily. If you're patient and long-lived you can do it fairly economically, and resupply yourself on the way as needed.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
pdalek
newbie


Reged: 03/14/13

Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5763708 - 03/29/13 06:14 AM

Every technologically advancing alien civilization eventually invents money. From then on, space travel is just too expensive.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mich_al
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/10/09

Loc: Rural central lower Michigan ...
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: pdalek]
      #5764272 - 03/29/13 11:13 AM

Quote:

Every technologically advancing alien civilization eventually invents money. From then on, space travel is just too expensive.




But don't they have credit cards?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: StarWars]
      #5807638 - 04/18/13 08:30 PM

It's fascinating to see the range of theories adduced to explain why "They are not here yet". This just in: Moore's Law used to explain why complexity develops exponentially and we are probably as advanced as it gets in the universe.

http://earthsky.org/earth/did-life-begin-before-earth-existed

/Ira


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5807888 - 04/18/13 11:01 PM

Moore's Law" isn't really a "law" in the traditional sense. It's an observed relationship that happens to hold true in a certain industry during a certain historical period. There's no compelling argument that it's universal.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Jarad
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 04/28/03

Loc: Atlanta, GA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5808238 - 04/19/13 07:32 AM

I am curious where they pulled the 376 million year doubling time from. It seems to me that the doubling time should depend directly on the generation time of the species. There is a huge range there - bacteria have a generation time of minutes, some trees have one that can be hundreds of years. Early life was simple, and probably had generation times closer to bacteria than to trees, so I would expect the overall "life complexity" doubling time was shorter early on, gradually slowing as organisms became more complex and requried slower generation times.

I think they would get a more reasonable hypothesis if they based it on # of generations rather than on time.

Jarad


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ravenous
professor emeritus


Reged: 11/14/09

Loc: UK
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5808375 - 04/19/13 09:40 AM

Quote:



http://earthsky.org/earth/did-life-begin-before-earth-existed





That (the paper linked to on that article) is a worrying paper.

I don't think they're saying the number of genomes double in 376 million years (page 3 para 2) - invertebrates were barely out of the oceans at that time and vertebrates weren't even started (I may be wrong on the timescale, I'm only an armchair paleo).

They're plotting the log of the number of genomes, as far as I can tell. That's what they're stating as the doubling time. Though I really am cautious about how they get a genome count from 3.5 bn years ago (plot on bottom of page 3)

A lot of rubbish is said about Moore's Law (his paper is on the 'net, but few people have read it) but this sort of thing is sub-science, in my opinion.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ravenous]
      #5809880 - 04/20/13 12:20 AM

Moore's law is actually a terrible tool to use in this situation. It also seems to be misstated in the article. Moor's law as I understand it is about computer computational speed, not computer complexity. In many respects, one can say that computers really haven't become significantly more complex since the invention of the integrated microprocessor: The fundamental number of functional areas has stayed relatively constant, while increasing in the number of identical copies of its simplest component items.

The same could be said of life. Is today's life really that much more complex that it was in the Cambrian? All the fundamental life functions were already established -- eucaryotic cells with nuclei and mitochondria, and in some cases chloroplasts, bilateral symmetry with appendages, hearts, gills, nervous systems, reproductive systems, and instinctive behaviors.

Yes, there's been more complex iterations of those systems, but THAT increase in complexity pales, it seems to me, compared to the huge advances in cellular sophistication that were required to get that far in the first place. And, of course, we "complex" creatures are still hugely outnumbered and outweighed by "simple" bacteria, protozoans, and invertebrates.

Looks to me like the paper is an exercise in speculation -- which the folks here in SASE can do a much better job of.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5811638 - 04/20/13 07:44 PM

I believe Moore's Law had to do with the doubling of transistors on a chip, complexity in that sense. I take the paper to be using it as a metaphor for speculation, rather than anything else. In any case, it is interesting to think that we may be the cutting edge when it comes to intelligence in the universe, assuming we aren't all there is. And, indeed, why not?

/Ira


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5811960 - 04/20/13 10:18 PM

Why should we be? The paper gives no reason for us to come to that conclusion.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rick Woods
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5813405 - 04/21/13 03:35 PM

Quote:

I believe Moore's Law had to do with the doubling of transistors on a chip, complexity in that sense.




No, Dave's right; it's about computer power and speed, not quantity of components. (Not that it really matters in this context.)

Quote:

I take the paper to be using it as a metaphor for speculation, rather than anything else. In any case, it is interesting to think that we may be the cutting edge when it comes to intelligence in the universe, assuming we aren't all there is. And, indeed, why not?




Jeez, what a depressing thought!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5814143 - 04/21/13 09:42 PM

Yeah,the thought that we might be "the pinnacle of creation" really IS depressing!

But I don't entertain that thought. Creation isn't a single peak with a pinnacle, it's a whole dang range of bouncing mountains!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5815004 - 04/22/13 11:04 AM

The cynicism here is tres au courant but misplaced. Consider that in 400 years we have gone from using a telescope that you wouldn't give to a child today, to visiting these unimaginably far off places ourselves. Quite an accomplishment! As for ethical standards...well, we're not allowed to discuss that here.

/Ira


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Qwickdraw
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 03/03/12

Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5815107 - 04/22/13 12:06 PM

Quote:

Yeah,the thought that we might be "the pinnacle of creation" really IS depressing!





Unless we find definitive proof otherwise, I find it very inspiring and puts us squarely in an accountable position that we need to take seriously.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5815527 - 04/22/13 03:28 PM

Quote:

Why are We the "Neanderthals"? Maybe They are. Why might We not be the leading edge of cosmic evolution? There's no evidence one way or the other, so why not?

/Ira




I think we are just one more step in an evolving evolutionary line.

Does anyone doubt that computers will become self-aware one day?

If true, in what way would a biological brain be superior to an artificial one? I can't think of a single aspect of biological intelligence that would trump over self-aware machines should (when) we make that throughout.

Once that genie is out of the bottle we become as irrelevant as the dinosaurs.

It is difficult to think of an IBM Cray 1200 rising up out of the primordial mud but they will likely supersede us nonetheless.

Pesse (Your reign is over you bags of mostly water!) Mist


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
TL2101
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/17/10

Loc: Concord, CA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Pess]
      #5815687 - 04/22/13 04:52 PM

Carbon based life will evolve into silicon based life given enough time.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: TL2101]
      #5817743 - 04/23/13 03:06 PM

Yeah, if you think about it interstellar flight is only impractical from the point of view of our lifespan measured against the length of any trip (even at near light speed).


However a being that can live for hundreds of thousands of years--say an AI lifeform, this would be trivial and space travel could be fairly routine for such beings.

Also fairly easy since the ship itself could be the being and therefore not reuqire all the add-ons and do-hickies us demanding little babies that are humans require.

Which begs the question: Where are all the Von Neuman devices that should be saturating the galaxy by now?

Maybe they favor the asteroid belts and avoid big gravity wells.

Pesse (Probably first sign would be moons of Jupiter going dark as they consume them) Mist


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
PhilCo126
Post Laureate


Reged: 01/14/05

Loc: coastline of Belgium
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Pess]
      #5817764 - 04/23/13 03:15 PM

Dr Seth Shostak ... one of me heroes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9WxW2ktcKU


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Otto Piechowski
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/20/05

Loc: Lexington, KY
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Pess]
      #5817785 - 04/23/13 03:24 PM

Hi Pess,

You wrote, "Does anyone doubt that computers will become self-aware one day?"

Because of the n=1 issue, I see no reason to suspect or not suspect computers will become self aware. More simply, the evidence does not yet exist for me to make or deny this assumption.

However, I do agree with Bill Joy (Sun Micro-systems) who I believe said or wrote, if it should become the case our computers gain awareness, what we will then have is an entity with near infinite power and the moral self control of a three year old.

Otto


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5817859 - 04/23/13 03:55 PM

Quote:

However, I do agree with Bill Joy (Sun Micro-systems) who I believe said or wrote, if it should become the case our computers gain awareness, what we will then have is an entity with near infinite power and the moral self control of a three year old.





Pesse (Absolute Power corrupts abosutely.) Mist


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Pess]
      #5818486 - 04/23/13 07:27 PM

Has anyone had a computing device that lasted more than 10 years? (And here I am being generous.) So much for the lifetime of the smart machine.

/Ira


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5819909 - 04/24/13 02:22 PM

Quote:

Has anyone had a computing device that lasted more than 10 years? (And here I am being generous.) So much for the lifetime of the smart machine.

/Ira




There is original code in Windows 8 that dates back to DOS.

Pesse (It is not the cranium, it is the syrup) Mist


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Otto Piechowski
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/20/05

Loc: Lexington, KY
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5820790 - 04/24/13 08:48 PM

I believe Bill Joy's comment was based in part on the assumption that self-aware machines would be both able to repair themselves and replicate.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5820812 - 04/24/13 08:58 PM

Not to mention do regular upgrades.

I'm just hoping that our robotic overlords will be open-source.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5821346 - 04/25/13 06:46 AM

probably not

that is what killed the Borg.







Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5821648 - 04/25/13 09:46 AM

Quote:

Has anyone had a computing device that lasted more than 10 years? (And here I am being generous.) So much for the lifetime of the smart machine.

/Ira




Only the code matters. The hardware is not important. The hardware can be designed to not last long and replaced often, or designed to last longer, but it's gonna have to be replaced anyways, soon or later.
How much of the original molecules or atoms we got at birth we still have after 50 years? not much, maybe none.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Jarad
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 04/28/03

Loc: Atlanta, GA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: dickbill]
      #5821734 - 04/25/13 10:19 AM

Reminds me of a song:

Code Monkey

Jarad


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Jarad]
      #5821895 - 04/25/13 11:53 AM

...beside, once the hardware is in place, the code can be uploaded at the speed of light. The higher computing components could be dormant for hundred of years and assembled later to wake up and reach consciousness, that is, IF a machine can really be made self aware, repair itself and replicate.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
shawnhar
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/25/10

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Jarad]
      #5822563 - 04/25/13 04:45 PM

Quote:

Reminds me of a song:

Code Monkey

Jarad



Awesome! I forgot about code monkey.

Hey this talk about computers being self aware.... Seems like intelligent beings might migrate to that...begs the question...If WE didn't make the machines that became self-aware, if THEY made them...Would we even be able to recognize these machines as self aware?
One other thing, since tech gets smaller and smaller, it seems possible that smart machines from another place would be so small we wouldn't even see them. (They've been exploring the same blade of grass in my backyard for 2 weeks now)
Seems more likely to me that machines will NEVER become self aware, (although will be programmed to mimic that) but we will download our conciousness into them, self-fulfilling our own sci-fi prediction of self aware machines..


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5822766 - 04/25/13 06:37 PM

I'm not sure we could ever tell for real if a machine is self-aware. It might be lying.

/Ira


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5824313 - 04/26/13 12:35 PM

Quote:

I'm not sure we could ever tell for real if a machine is self-aware. It might be lying.

/Ira




Interesting comment.

What is 'self-aware'?

Is a sperm self-aware or is it just a biological machine following linear per-programmed commands?

Is an embryo self aware?

At what point does an embryo stop from being an inert genetic program being executed in a linear fashion and the collection of cells become self-aware?

This is not an easy question to answer (and easily swerves down ethical and morality highways).

One thing is certain, once a synthetic brain is developed and capable of contemplating its own existence, additionally programming can be downloaded at the speed of light to each self-aware unit so that the 'collective' is essentially one large shared distributed computing network.

Pesse (Sort of like Sybil on steroids....) Mist


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Otto Piechowski
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/20/05

Loc: Lexington, KY
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Pess]
      #5824966 - 04/26/13 05:40 PM

There was something in our local newspaper, which I believe was taken from somewhere like the NYtimes or AP reporting some creative and clever psychological test/observation which pinpointed self awareness in humans to as early as, I think it was, 5 months of age. I only mention this because someone (psychologists) believe they have a way to identify self awareness.

The other, unrelated thought which jumped to mind is this; I believe someone here asked the question of whether or not we would be able to tell if the machines were aware. Not so long ago, someone pointed out, concerning smart programs used by telemarketers/phone consultant companies etc, that the question had moved, in terms of talking with a machine on a phone, the question had moved from "can machines develop the awareness, person, communication skills needed to hold a conversation" to "can programing be developed to the point where humans could no longer determine if what they were speaking with was a machine or a person".


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rick Woods
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5825653 - 04/27/13 03:27 AM

Programming can already be written that's that sophisticated. It's just a matter of how much effort you want to put into it. (Don't look for it from Microsoft!) But that's a far cry from "self-aware" machines. I think those types of scenarios are imagined by people who have never programmed computers, and don't understand the limitations involved. GIGO: A computer is not aware of anything; it processes input and outputs results in the specified format. If you give it the wrong instructions, you'll get the wrong result. Ask anyone who's written a multi-thousand line BAL program, and been stymied by an error that ended up being caused by a Load instruction when a Load Halfword instruction was what they wanted. The machine doesn't know the difference, it just does what it's told.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Otto Piechowski
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/20/05

Loc: Lexington, KY
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5825969 - 04/27/13 10:06 AM

I can't imagine what it is like to write code. I hear in Jurassic Park, Dennis Nedry (sp?) talking about writing a million lines of code and that is just beyond me. Yes, back in the mid 1970's I wrote a few programs in Fortran (does that count as code?); each only a few dozen, at most a few hundreds of lines long. Even with that the frustrations of making mistakes which caused the program not to run, and then having to go back through it line by line to find the error was such a pain.

Can't imagine the amazing things computer programmers/you do.

Otto


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5826193 - 04/27/13 12:20 PM

I've written a few programs that are a few thousand lines of code each. Each one took me the better part of a year. Most of that time wasn't spent coding, most was spent troubleshooting and debugging, or sitting and thinking about what to do next, or going onto programmers forums asking what must have seemed like ridiculous questions of the more talented hackers. That constitutes a limited number of hours per week, of course.

The Linux kernel in 2012, 11 years after work began on it, had about 15 million lines of code. About 680 people over that time have contributed more than 100 modifications each (and thousands more have contributed a few here and there). That's also close to the number of people that are actively working on it at any one time. Crudely averaging that out, it's a little more than 2000 lines of code per contributor per year. Not particularly onerous for those who know what they're doing.

But as Rick pointed out, no amount of code can make a machine self-aware. However, that doesn't mean a machine can't be self-aware in principle, it just requires more than just a computer. Self-awareness, like so many other phenomena, is almost certainly something emergent, requiring not only vast amounts of information-processing ability, but a high sensitivity to the external environment and the ability to dynamically model that environment, and one's own interaction with it, in real time. A robot can potentially do that, but it's certainly not there yet.

Could we tell if we were confronted by a self-aware machine? I think we could be easily fooled either way, but again, I think it's possible.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5826387 - 04/27/13 01:53 PM

Quote:

But as Rick pointed out, no amount of code can make a machine self-aware. However, that doesn't mean a machine can't be self-aware in principle, it just requires more than just a computer. Self-awareness, like so many other phenomena, is almost certainly something emergent, requiring not only vast amounts of information-processing ability, but a high sensitivity to the external environment and the ability to dynamically model that environment, and one's own interaction with it, in real time. A robot can potentially do that, but it's certainly not there yet.

Could we tell if we were confronted by a self-aware machine? I think we could be easily fooled either way, but again, I think it's possible.




You make an insightful point here, a self-aware entity has to be able to sense and interact with its environment. This action-feeddback-amended action is critical.

A self aware computer would almost certainly be capable of modifying its own 'code' on the fly just as humans can.

Humans do this by parallel processing. Different branches of logic are reinforced with desirable behavior while logic branches are discarded and wither away. This is basically how we learn to walk (or any skill). Balance pathways that are efficient are reinforced with use while those that don't lead to the desired result (ie: make us fall) are left unreinforced and decay.

But at birth all pathways are pretty much equal.

People recover from disabling strokes much the same way. Old tried and true circuits for walking no longer work and so 'new' circuits are tried as work-arounds and many initially lost motor skills can be regaine dover time as new circuits are reinforced.

For computers now that have limited interaction with their environment, the hierarchy of 'goals' is hard wired. We also wee this in the insect world. Cockroaches have a very basic IF-THEN-ELSE program apparently running in them. As self-awareness emerges we'll see more IF-THEN-ELSE-OR MAYBE logic trees develop.

A sobering note is that self-awareness is more than biological since the vast majority of our constituent molecules change over time as we grow and develop yet our perception of ourselves does not.

Pesse (I wonder if a silicon prejudice would develop between AC & DC powered self aware computers?) Mist


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
shawnhar
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/25/10

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Pess]
      #5826690 - 04/27/13 04:33 PM

I don't think I want the uncertatiny logic programmed into my computer...."I'm not sure I can do that that Dave"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
buddyjesus
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 07/07/10

Loc: Davison, Michigan
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5826709 - 04/27/13 04:41 PM

considering an xbox has the computing power to use a camera to see if your moving correctly for a dancing game, it is only a matter of time until someone has a mirror in front of it. I happen to think that a crude model of self awareness wouldn't be too difficult. Actually been done. http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2012/09/25/first-self-aware-robot-created/

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: buddyjesus]
      #5826993 - 04/27/13 06:56 PM

Is a dog self-aware? A turtle? A fish? An earthworm? A Gorilla?

/Ira


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5827149 - 04/27/13 07:32 PM

Gorillas and chimpanzees show some signs of self-awareness. Not sure about orangatans. I also don't know if we really have the capability to test for it in dolphins.

As for dogs, there seems to be a lot of dispute about it. It depends, I guess on where you put a boundary to the definition of self-awareness. By some definitions, there are plenty of humans who wouldn't qualify.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rick Woods
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5827250 - 04/27/13 08:14 PM

Cats are aware of little else!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5827305 - 04/27/13 08:43 PM

What is the test for self-awareness?

It is interesting to note that the Turing Test for an intelligent machine does not explicitly include the condition of self-awareness. It is based on actions, not subjective states. A machine that acts indistinguishably from a human being is not self aware, it just says the right things to seem self-aware.

So, how do we test for self-awareness?

Is "consciousness" a pre-requisite for being self-aware? It would seem to be. Animals of various kinds are certainly conscious, but few seem to be self-aware. Since I don't think anyone would declare even Deep Blue to be conscious, machines still have a long way to go before being self-aware.

Perhaps there is something to dualism after all. Where is "the ghost in the machine"?

/Ira


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Jason H.
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/23/07

Loc: Central Florida
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5827494 - 04/27/13 11:25 PM

Quote:

Gorillas and chimpanzees show some signs of self-awareness. Not sure about orangatans. I also don't know if we really have the capability to test for it in dolphins.

...




Paper - Mirror self-recognition in the bottlenose dolphin: A case of cognitive convergence

http://www.pnas.org/content/98/10/5937.full.pdf

and according to this article regarding the same dolphin paper, at

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=131068&page=1#.UXyUPsokR8E

"...Only chimpanzees, orangutans and gorillas passed the test by examining the marks on their bodies."

So perhaps (lacking a citation) orangutans (that you were wondering about) are in the mix too?

Regards, Jason H.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Jason H.]
      #5827514 - 04/27/13 11:33 PM

That's very cool, Jason. I wasn't sure that mirror recognition would even be a fair test for dolphins, since so much of their sensory world is auditory. But they got it anyway. Just shows how smart they really are.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5827745 - 04/28/13 04:29 AM

Perhaps "They" will be wearing spacesuits filled with water instead of some exotic atmosphere!

/Ira


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5829984 - 04/29/13 11:44 AM

Just saw 'Oblivion' with Tom Cruise.

Interesting concept. Why take, feed & transport an entire army to conquer another planet? Just find a few good specimens, clone them in quantity and program them to fight their brethren on the planet.

They would already be adapted to conditions & equipment for the conquest world.

Hmm, food for thought....

Pesse (Filed in my world domination folder....) Mist


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5830160 - 04/29/13 01:08 PM

Quote:

Perhaps "They" will be wearing spacesuits filled with water instead of some exotic atmosphere!

/Ira





I thought that was the definition of Human Skin?

I also believe in the inviolable fact of free will...

Pesse (..they made me say that.) Mist


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Pess]
      #5831083 - 04/29/13 08:47 PM

Are you an "Extremophile"?

http://www.universetoday.com/101849/book-review-weird-life-the-search-for-lif...

/Ira


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5831359 - 04/29/13 11:38 PM

I'm an extremophobe, personally.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5831635 - 04/30/13 06:29 AM

Why "They" are not here yet??

3 words:

The Prime Directive


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Mister T]
      #5831747 - 04/30/13 08:16 AM

Quote:

Why "They" are not here yet??

3 words:

The Prime Directive




No, that's why "We" and not there yet.

/Ira


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Jarad
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 04/28/03

Loc: Atlanta, GA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5831803 - 04/30/13 08:59 AM

Quote:

Perhaps "They" will be wearing spacesuits filled with water instead of some exotic atmosphere!

/Ira




Well, dolphins make the best space pilots in David Brin's Uplift universe... They are used to navigating in 3 dimensions.

Jarad


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5831908 - 04/30/13 10:08 AM

more accurately it is why we don't know that they are already here.

basically their cooler "heads" (intelligence containing appendages) have convinced the more reactionary factions to hold off from dousing this petrie dish we call a planet, with intergalactic bleach and starting over.

they are holding out that whales or dolphins might amount to something that the human race has fallen woefully short of...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Jarad]
      #5832026 - 04/30/13 11:17 AM

I wonder about the possibility of a 'machine', or a computer program, capable of testing a subject for self-consciousness. We are looking for an algorithm that can answer true or false, 'the test subject is selfconscious' within a finite runtime .
Either the program would not return with 100% certainty within a finite time, or it would fall into 'If TRUE then FAlSE' paradoxical statements.
The machine, or the test algorithm, would have to be able to run reflexively, so not only asking questions like: "who are you?", "Are you dead?" (i.e., a non-alive computer), "Are you self conscious?", but also: "who am i?", "Am i dead?", "Am i self conscious?".
I doubt a dead and non self conscious machine can run very long this sort of questions without falling into infinite loops, so i personnaly don't think a non self conscious entity can decide if a test subject, or itself, is selfconscious.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: dickbill]
      #5832590 - 04/30/13 03:30 PM

Do you guys know that the human brain uses holoistic programming to identify and process information?

For example, patients have had half there brain removed and yet swtill their family and friends sense that they are still the same person. In fact, it takes a skilled psychologist to detect changes in a person despite having lost this much physical brain tissue. (In severe epileptics sometimes this drastic surgery, termed a heminectomy, is a last resort surgery).

What this tells us is that the brain sotres and processes bits of information from physical locations all over the brain. It assembles these 'bits' into a holographic representation that arises in (or of?) our conciousness.

Thus aspects of your uncles nose (color, shape, texture, level of snot) is stored in repeated locations around the brain and when the nose comes into vies you process these bits until the holographic image of this paticular nose is recognized.

Most computers today do not process information this way. They are too linear. The rbain itself doesn't process information in a linear fashion very fast (try doing math in your head). But it can process and sort through (for pertinence) billions of bits of information simultaneously.

AI will emerge when systems taht can parrellel process information become very dense and very efficient.

Saying that, I don't see that point very far off. Parrell processing is just now in its infancy. Programs that can modify themselves are also just now in their infancy.


Pesse (Baby gonna grow up soon) Mist


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Pess]
      #5832878 - 04/30/13 05:52 PM

Maybe, but neural networks are slow compared to modern cpu. It might be a contingency of carbon-based life that silicon doesn't suffer. CPUs now easily need more than 100 watts with huge amount of heat wasted while our brains run about 20 watts of power for one fifth of the total body consumption and it's probably very optimized.
Things are different and copying the brain might not be the best solution for a computer. Well, self learning is certainly a pre-requisite towards self consciousness, i agree with that.
To go back to a putative selfconsciousness algorithm, i don't think that an 'external' test ("Are YOU self aware?") is even relevant. Being self-aware is something that you have to decide for yourself, be it a human of a computer, and it doesn't matter what says the other human or computer about it. Learning to answer "Am I self-aware?" is going to be difficult to program though. But is it only by increasing the computing power that such question can be answered?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: dickbill]
      #5833097 - 04/30/13 07:53 PM

Just 20 watts? My but aren't we all just dim bulbs.

/Ira


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5833365 - 04/30/13 10:39 PM

Heck no, we're energy stars!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rick Woods
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5833503 - 05/01/13 12:09 AM

I am, therefore I am.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5833686 - 05/01/13 05:40 AM

Finally a definitive answer will be forthcoming:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/04/30/1205662/-Former-lawmakers-to-hear-te...

who better than former lawmakers to decide this important issue


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
scopethis
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/30/08

Loc: Kingman, Ks
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Mister T]
      #5833955 - 05/01/13 09:48 AM

and Fox News will alert the public of the findings....hey, I've still got my copy of Project Blue Book, will that help?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5833972 - 05/01/13 10:00 AM

Well, 'just 20 watts', yes but each watt earned for the brain will cost you an expensive time spent looking for food. We need 2400 kcal of food already. Try to go in survival mode in the wild and see if you can actually gather 2400 kcal of food/day on a regular basis and how much time and energy you must deduct. Some of my acquaintances tried and said that after a while, they were starving, and the only thing they could think about was food. Of course, forget a vegetarian diet, well, i guess a vegetarian diet would fill a 2400kcal bill IF you were looking for food all day long, but what's the point to feed a brain if you don't have any time to use it? same for very slow to digest raw meat (there are some adepts of this diet). Our brain is definitively designed with meat and fire in mind.

I got the number from there:
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/JacquelineLing.shtml


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: dickbill]
      #5834035 - 05/01/13 10:33 AM

Quote:

Maybe, but neural networks are slow compared to modern cpu.




If the brain takes 1 second per bit of information accesse, but can simultaneously access 1 billion bits of information, that is much more efficient than a cpu that can linearly access 1 billion bits of information in one second.

Sort of like doing a jigsaw puzzle by checking all pieces against all other pieces as opposed to checking one piece against one other piece one step at a time....

Pesse (Uncles nose hair black & long? Check! Snot predominantly on the right side? Check! Pimple dead center? Check!) Mist


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: dickbill]
      #5834066 - 05/01/13 10:47 AM

Quote:

Well, 'just 20 watts', yes but each watt earned for the brain will cost you an expensive time spent looking for food. We need 2400 kcal of food already. Try to go in survival mode in the wild and see if you can actually gather 2400 kcal of food/day on a regular basis and how much time and energy you must deduct. Some of my acquaintances tried and said that after a while, they were starving, and the only thing they could think about was food. Of course, forget a vegetarian diet, well, i guess a vegetarian diet would fill a 2400kcal bill IF you were looking for food all day long, but what's the point to feed a brain if you don't have any time to use it? same for very slow to digest raw meat (there are some adepts of this diet). Our brain is definitively designed with meat and fire in mind.

I got the number from there:
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/JacquelineLing.shtml




That's why civilization was never developed by hunter-gatherer societies.

/Ira


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5834076 - 05/01/13 10:53 AM

Skilled hunter-gatherers never had to spend all that much time searching for food. They had plenty of leisure. Sometimes, unfortunately, there was simply no food to be had. Hunter-gatherer lifestyles aren't good at storing food for lean times.

Of course, if there's plenty of food available, what good is civilization anyway? Agriculture was a good invention for predictable shortages, but the rest of history has been the tale of how we've dealt with the unforeseen consequences of that invention.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5834119 - 05/01/13 11:14 AM

Quote:

Of course, if there's plenty of food available, what good is civilization anyway? Agriculture was a good invention for predictable shortages, but the rest of history has been the tale of how we've dealt with the unforeseen consequences of that invention.




Barbarians didn't bother with growing stuff and all that labor intensive behavior. Far easier to party all summer and raid for what you need in the Fall.

Pesse (And people thought the tax year ending in December was a coincidence? lol) Mist


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
shawnhar
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/25/10

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5834362 - 05/01/13 01:08 PM

Quote:

Skilled hunter-gatherers never had to spend all that much time searching for food. They had plenty of leisure. Sometimes, unfortunately, there was simply no food to be had. Hunter-gatherer lifestyles aren't good at storing food for lean times.

Of course, if there's plenty of food available, what good is civilization anyway? Agriculture was a good invention for predictable shortages, but the rest of history has been the tale of how we've dealt with the unforeseen consequences of that invention.




Word!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pedestal
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 03/11/06

Loc: Smoggy Bottom, Baytown,Texas
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Mister T]
      #5835366 - 05/01/13 10:44 PM

Quote:

Finally a definitive answer will be forthcoming:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/04/30/1205662/-Former-lawmakers-to-hear-te...

who better than former lawmakers to decide this important issue




For 20 grand, I'd sit and listen to nonsense for a week. I might could even get excited about it. Looks like former or not, they still like money.

And I believe we will invent a machine civilization-probably leading to our ultimate demise, long before ET finds us. Or vice-versa!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: StarWars]
      #5838010 - 05/03/13 10:29 AM

Wait! Wait!! "They" are here says US congressman, and the government is covering it up!!!!

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/power-players-abc-news/former-sen-mike-gravel-say...

/Ira


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #5838024 - 05/03/13 10:33 AM

Quote:

Wait! Wait!! "They" are here says US congressman, and the government is covering it up!!!!

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/power-players-abc-news/former-sen-mike-gravel-say...

/Ira





Of course it would. "They" are running for Congress!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Napersky
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 01/27/10

Loc: Chicagoland
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: llanitedave]
      #6529585 - 05/16/14 06:00 PM

"They" are most definitely here. Many have seen "them". Their ships are seen frequently.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Napersky]
      #6529877 - 05/16/14 09:30 PM

Not just their ships. They also have annoying little scooters that clog the local roads.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
maugi88
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 08/25/13

Loc: SE MN
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: llanitedave]
      #6529893 - 05/16/14 09:40 PM

Quote:

Not just their ships. They also have annoying little scooters that clog the local roads.




Not sure your "they" and his "they" are the same "they".
Though "they" is a pretty vague descriptive.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: maugi88]
      #6529924 - 05/16/14 10:03 PM

It's not my "they" or his "they" or your "they" that worries me. It's "their" they.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: llanitedave]
      #6530048 - 05/16/14 11:12 PM

There is no "they" there...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
maugi88
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 08/25/13

Loc: SE MN
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Mister T]
      #6530555 - 05/17/14 10:07 AM

Help me to understand. The OP has a link to a story titled "Sex in space may be dangerous" or something like that. The story then describes how a fetus would not develop correctly in weightless falling thru space. So not dangerous for those who partake but any possible offspring. Insinuating that for the sake of the title of the thread that any off world species could not reproduce during their journey? Assuming there are "aliens" and I have no problem assuming that, in-fact I am quite sure there are, somewhere. I would think if they have the tech to travel the vastness of space or around it, they would have figured out how to get around these hurtles.

Without reading the whole thread it seems we are now taking about aliens, politicians or both? or neither?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: maugi88]
      #6530755 - 05/17/14 12:03 PM

The thread has gotten silly, primarily because the premise is so hard to take seriously. Yes, it's possible that pregnancy in weightlessness could be an issue. But the cited study was only done on plants, not any kind of mammal. Humans tend to shift position and move around more than plants, so positional cues might not be as important to human embryos as to plant embryos.

But even if, so what. Artificial gravity is trivial in space. Just rotate the craft. It doesn't take a genius to get around it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
maugi88
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 08/25/13

Loc: SE MN
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: llanitedave]
      #6530812 - 05/17/14 12:34 PM

Well that explains that. Thanks Dave

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: maugi88]
      #6532967 - 05/18/14 06:00 PM

Just snap your fingers and all problems are solved. Or not. In any case, they ain't here which means that either there aren't any of them, or all problems are not solvable with the snap of the fingers. At least not in the lifetime of the universe so far.

/Ira


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Ira]
      #6534325 - 05/19/14 02:59 PM

Quote:

Just snap your fingers and all problems are solved. Or not. In any case, they ain't here which means that either there aren't any of them, or all problems are not solvable with the snap of the fingers. At least not in the lifetime of the universe so far.

/Ira




Or maybe they have been here many times and just don't bother to ring the doorbell.

Space is big and planets are few and far between. Certainly a race capable of flying between the stars has no need to dig down into a deep energy draining gravity well for raw material.

There is also the notion that a race advanced enough for Interstellar flight might be as far ahead of us as we are the dinosaurs. Would we stop and try to start a conversation with a Tyrannosaurs Rex?

Pesse (Of course, Barney may be their envoy) Mist


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Pess]
      #6534355 - 05/19/14 03:18 PM

I know people who talk to butterflies. I tend to stick to vertebrates, though, like snakes and iguanas.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
maugi88
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 08/25/13

Loc: SE MN
Re: Why "They" are not here yet new [Re: Pess]
      #6534425 - 05/19/14 04:01 PM

Quote:

Would we stop and try to start a conversation with a Tyrannosaurs Rex?




I would. I would even throw a stick for him to fetch.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | (show all)


Extra information
1 registered and 5 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  LivingNDixie, FirstSight, JayinUT 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 5743

Jump to

CN Forums Home


Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics