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Equipment Discussions >> Video and Electronically Assisted Astronomy

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nytecam
Postmaster


Reged: 08/20/05

Loc: London UK
supernova in M65
      #5766107 - 03/30/13 03:22 AM Attachment (72 downloads)

Anyone tried for the new SN 2013am in M65 in Leo Here's my 30sec screen grab from last night via M12 @ f/3.6 SCT + Starlight Xpress Lodestar-C CCD cam in video-like download loop - no processing. A deeper 160s processed image here

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geminijk
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/03/08

Loc: TN
Re: supernova in M65 new [Re: nytecam]
      #5766131 - 03/30/13 04:08 AM

Haven't caught it yet, clouds are persisting, but always great to see your captures! Nice one.

John


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ahopp
sage


Reged: 05/24/12

Re: supernova in M65 new [Re: geminijk]
      #5766282 - 03/30/13 08:13 AM

Great Job.

Tony


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ccs_hello
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/03/04

Re: supernova in M65 new [Re: nytecam]
      #5766300 - 03/30/13 08:46 AM

Looks nice Maurice!

Your examples showed the benefit of high(er) S/N does serve some good purposes. This is the classic case that (1) "I want to see it now regardless" vs. (2) "I want to see a better picture that I can identify something clearer".

Not a pro and con debate, just wish to show forum members that high S/N is a nice attribute to have (and there is no free lunch.)

Clear Skies!

ccs_hello


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canadiens
super member


Reged: 09/07/07

Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: supernova in M65 new [Re: nytecam]
      #5766358 - 03/30/13 09:29 AM Attachment (61 downloads)

Here's my attempt from a screenshot of my broadcast last night at Mar 29 23:08 EDT using Mallincam MCX excellent conditions and a rare 40% humidity.

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canadiens
super member


Reged: 09/07/07

Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: supernova in M65 new [Re: canadiens]
      #5766364 - 03/30/13 09:33 AM Attachment (39 downloads)

A close up using the digital zoom (8)on a Mallincam MCX with a C14 hyperstar @ f/1.9 on a G11 Mount, excellent conditions and crazy low (40%) humidity.

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ccs_hello
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/03/04

Re: supernova in M65 new [Re: canadiens]
      #5766384 - 03/30/13 09:51 AM Attachment (40 downloads)

I hope forum won't object (just to show S/N difference.) I tried side by side comparison.
Actually MCX (even with digital zoom added) is quite impressive.

Clear Skies!

ccs_hello


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ccs_hello
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/03/04

Re: supernova in M65 new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #5766388 - 03/30/13 09:54 AM Attachment (26 downloads)

Also note the optical assembly is different and the image sensors used are different.
(Fast lens and larger pixel pitch gather more light, i.e., better "S" to begin with.)

Original pic size:


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Chris A
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 02/03/07

Loc: Toronto, Canada
Re: supernova in M65 new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #5766558 - 03/30/13 11:23 AM

I am really glad ccd_hello that you and not on of us Mallincam owners brought this important discussion up "thank you"! Yes your right regarding the different set-ups esp. for focal ratio difference. The big key here is that the Mallincam image is a single none processed image that one can view in minutes on the spot rather then capturing several images and post processing them later. The Mallincam does most of the processing for you within the camera since it is a true video feed. This is a truly special camera and that is why we MC owners talk so highly about these cameras even though people think we are always bragging.

Very nice captures BTW!!

Chris A
Astrogate


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Chris A
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 02/03/07

Loc: Toronto, Canada
Re: supernova in M65 new [Re: canadiens]
      #5766592 - 03/30/13 11:33 AM

Very nice near-live capture Mike!! May I ask what was the exposure rate and AGC used please? This is why when people ask me if the C9.25 or C8 in Hyperstar config is good with the Mallincam, I respond not really unless you plan on viewing only the larger objects like nebulas or M31 etc. On smaller objects esp. the Springtime galaxy season many of the objects are not that large and even using your C14 you had to go into the digital zoom. Thank goodness this zoom feature in the Mallincam is very good. I would suggest though you stay at about 50% zoom max which provides the best results. Your image at zoom 8 is very nice but I would have loved to see it at zoom 4. Something to try in the future and compare for yourself.

Chris A
Astrogate


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canadiens
super member


Reged: 09/07/07

Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: supernova in M65 new [Re: Chris A]
      #5766871 - 03/30/13 01:21 PM

Hi Chris, Glad to see you back broadcasting again after a long winter! My settings were C14 @ f1.9 Hyperstar on a Celestron G11, AGC 2, APC H3 V5,135 sec int. I need a lot more experience to learn and pick up the subtleties in this type of imaging. Thanks for the compliment.

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mclewis1
Thread Killer
*****

Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
Re: supernova in M65 new [Re: canadiens]
      #5767377 - 03/30/13 06:43 PM

A C14 operating with a Hyperstar is around 675mm focal length which is very similar image scale wise to a C8 with an .33x (SCT f3.3) focal reducer which is a pretty popular setup with a Mallincam for most objects.

A C9.25 with a Hyperstar at 540mm is very similar to an 80mm scope with a .8x focal reducer (also a popular setup). An 80mm scope with a .5x focal reducer makes for a very useful wide field setup on things like extended Ha regions ... but not so much on planetaries and most galaxies.

As always everything is a trade off. We'd all like better image scale on smaller objects but they tend to be faint and require faster f ratios. Increasing the aperture (and focal length) helps of course but at the expense of having to use a bigger more expensive mount to carry the scope.


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nytecam
Postmaster


Reged: 08/20/05

Loc: London UK
Re: supernova in M65 new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #5768082 - 03/31/13 04:39 AM

Quote:

Also note the optical assembly is different and the image sensors used are different.
(Fast lens and larger pixel pitch gather more light, i.e., better "S" to begin with.)


Thanks ccs_hello for your montage and comments - as always most welcome . For me what's remarkable is the close similarity of the two images despite different cams/ scopes/ optics/ locations/ altitude/ sky conditions etc.

Chris says the Mallincam creates the finished image without processing but this is not entirely true - the user adjusts and tweaks the numerous cam perameters in the download loop to get the most pleasing result. These may satisfy further objects with the same exposure. My uncooled Lodestar OSC CCD cam uses no 'enhancing' internal hardware and downloads raw images for post tweaking to best effect free from video artefacts like 'black-star-halos' etc. Horses-for-courses


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mattflastro
Vendor - Astrovideo Systems


Reged: 07/31/09

Loc: Brevard County , FL
Re: supernova in M65 new [Re: Chris A]
      #5768090 - 03/31/13 05:09 AM Attachment (16 downloads)

Quote:

I am really glad ccd_hello that you and not on of us Mallincam owners brought this important discussion up "thank you"! ...
The big key here is that the Mallincam image is a single none processed image ...
The Mallincam does most of the processing for you within the camera since it is a true video feed. This is a truly special camera and that is why we MC owners talk so highly about these cameras even though people think we are always bragging.

...
Chris A
Astrogate




Nice images straight from the camera with no processing Yeah right !
Except for the following processing ALL done on the PC after image capture :
- curves adjustment
- amp glow removal filter
- 2 different noise filters "smoother" and "smart smoother" filter
- 2 different sharpening filters "warp sharp" and "unsharp mask" .
All these filters being applied to every single frame by the Windows PC and not by the camera.
Plus the new stacking of up to 5 frames ???
That's what mallincam users brag about when they claim their cameras are "live video" and there is "no pc processing".


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mattflastro
Vendor - Astrovideo Systems


Reged: 07/31/09

Loc: Brevard County , FL
Re: supernova in M65 new [Re: mattflastro]
      #5768091 - 03/31/13 05:11 AM Attachment (26 downloads)

here's the curves applied by the PC software after capture of Mallincam images:

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mattflastro
Vendor - Astrovideo Systems


Reged: 07/31/09

Loc: Brevard County , FL
Re: supernova in M65 new [Re: mattflastro]
      #5768092 - 03/31/13 05:13 AM Attachment (17 downloads)

and for good measure, the good old amp glow removal filter on the PC of course in software after image capture :

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ahopp
sage


Reged: 05/24/12

Re: supernova in M65 new [Re: mattflastro]
      #5768200 - 03/31/13 08:22 AM

Mattflastro,

I do send the s-video to my Mac Book Pro, I also run the camera controls from the Mac. So, I believe that there is some processing that you can do to adjust the live feed on the Mac screen as you mentioned, although, I believe you can turn just about all of it off.

I use Miloslik Scientific software called Mallincam Control to control the camera setting.

But, I output the composite feed directly to my 12VDC tv, so, I believe that the output to the TV is unprocessed by the computer. Of course, the camera has internal processes, but no pc processing for this setup.

Tony


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mclewis1
Thread Killer
*****

Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
Re: supernova in M65 new [Re: ahopp]
      #5768480 - 03/31/13 10:32 AM

Folks, I think there is some miss understanding on all fronts going on here.

First, the onboard image processing the video Mallincam performs is very limited. Gain, sharpness, and white balance ... and because of the way these controls are implemented they are not constantly tweaked. You set the camera up and leave it alone. The majority of that most folks describe as video image processing is performed by the device driver of the frame grabber, the video display app itself, any additional video filter apps, or on the video monitor. You can apply as few or as many of these as you desire. The simplest setup is the external video monitor without a PC, and with that setup you only adjust the brightness, contrast and sometimes the color controls on the monitor.

The Starlight Xpress software for the LodeStar that's required to run the camera performs essentially the same image processing functions. An image is downloaded and the software gives you ability to adjust and apply a variety of filters to the displayed image, and many of these controls and filters can be applied in an automated fashion. This is a very useful capability to achieve something close to live viewing from what is architecturally a single shot camera.

Quote:

Nice images straight from the camera with no processing Yeah right !



Matt, The images that Mike has posted here are not processed in the fashion that Chris has demonstrated on his NSN broadcast so IMHO that's not a fair comment or criticism. From what I understand Mike is using the MCV-1E frame grabber so the black levels are adjusted, then it's simply brightness and contrast as the image is captured on the PC. No filters and such are used.

Chris has been working with some interesting add on filter processing, something the majority of Mallincam users don't and likely won't use. Some of these image processing filters are also being incorporated into some of the Mallincam control apps. This will provide a similar capability to what Maurice is already doing with his LodeStar software.


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mclewis1
Thread Killer
*****

Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
Re: supernova in M65 new [Re: nytecam]
      #5768513 - 03/31/13 10:49 AM

Quote:

My uncooled Lodestar OSC CCD cam uses no 'enhancing' internal hardware and downloads raw images for post tweaking to best effect free from video artefacts like 'black-star-halos' etc.



Maurice, The only "enhancing" internal hardware the Mallincam provides is for gain, sharpness, and length of exposure, do you mean to suggest that the Lodestar hardware doesn't enhance the gain of an image or alter the length of the exposure?

The "black-star-halos" are a video artifact but you can have video images without the halos. They are visible because of sharpness and high gain used to shorten exposures for live viewing on video cameras. Run a Mallincam Xtreme in CCD mode (no AGC) and with the sharpness adjusted and you don't get any halos ... but are still displaying a video image.

Now having said that I will certainly concede that viewed on a PC a Lodestar will download "prettier" images compared to a Mallincam in it's default modes. There's simply less going on with the Lodestar images where the Mallincam's video has to be converted to get to the PC.

Edit: to correct the video artifact comment.

Edited by mclewis1 (03/31/13 12:15 PM)


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Atl
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 04/13/12

Re: supernova in M65 new [Re: mclewis1]
      #5768532 - 03/31/13 11:01 AM

Really amazing. Just a few years back stuff like this was primarily the domain of big observatories. Video has really leveled the field!

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