Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home page


Astrophotography and Sketching >> CCD Imaging & Processing

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | (show all)
hytham
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 12/25/12

Loc: Canadian in the US
Re: KAF-8300 questions? new [Re: buckeyestargazer]
      #5776026 - 04/03/13 05:32 PM

Those are some very small pixels.

The larger pixel density is offset by the smaller pixels, but your resolution does increase somewhat.

*I originally stated diagonal which is incorrect. The diagonal of the two chips (694 and 814) are the same.

Edited by hytham (04/03/13 05:36 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
buckeyestargazer
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 01/12/08

Loc: IN, USA
Re: KAF-8300 questions? new [Re: hytham]
      #5776051 - 04/03/13 05:45 PM

Oh, you're right! Somehow I mis-read the pixel size. I thought they were the same size as the 460ex. So you are correct, the resolution increases but the FOV is about the same.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hytham
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 12/25/12

Loc: Canadian in the US
Re: KAF-8300 questions? new [Re: buckeyestargazer]
      #5776075 - 04/03/13 05:55 PM

I absolutely hate that they do not give you more detailed information regarding the model. "Outstanding QE" ... what does that even mean? "Very low noise ..." ok, go on.

I see that they give you an RMS of 5e-, but what about dark current? What about full well capacity?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
SL63 AMG
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 12/21/09

Loc: Williamson, Arizona
Re: KAF-8300 questions? new [Re: Footbag]
      #5776732 - 04/03/13 11:11 PM

Adam,

I really don't find the KAF-8300 to be all that noisy, especially with FLI's electronics in the ML8300.

I just grabed a random luminance image, stretched it as far as possible and uploaded it for you to compare with a stack of luminance and a finished image.

M78 single 10 minute Luminance, no calibration, stretched



M78 Stack of 16 10 minute Luminance frames- calibrated



M78 fully processed LRGB 6.2 hours integration- virtually noise free



I also had a QSI 583wsg and I never had frames where the noise overwhelmed the signal or was otherwise a problem.

The KAF-8300 is an excellent chip for the price and will serve you well. I think any of the four main manufacturers will provide you good results.

Edited by SL63 AMG (04/03/13 11:13 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Footbag
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 04/13/09

Loc: Scranton, PA
Re: KAF-8300 questions? new [Re: SL63 AMG]
      #5777227 - 04/04/13 09:35 AM

Very nice images Dave. I don't think they look noisy, in fact they look great. I never thought the KAS-8300 looked noisy, I just heard the comment frequently. I guess that happend when your splitting hairs over $4k and $10k cameras.

The FLI cameras do look nice, but a bit out of my price range.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Fabio Papa
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 03/01/05

Loc: Piacenza, Italy
Re: KAF-8300 questions? new [Re: Footbag]
      #5777259 - 04/04/13 09:59 AM

I think what most people mean is that the 8300 isn't inherently noise-free, as it happens with sony chips, but has to be made so by the elctronics.
A proof of this is the very high swings of noise readings from different manufacturers, while the sony equipped cameras varies very little in comparison.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lawrie
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 01/31/06

Loc: Okanagan Valley
Re: KAF-8300 questions? new [Re: Fabio Papa]
      #5777421 - 04/04/13 11:08 AM

Moving over from DSLR imaging to imaging where you are able to keep a constant temp for lights and darks, noise won't be an issue.
You could look at the QSI cameras also.

Nice images Dave


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Fogboundturtle
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/20/09

Loc: Burnaby, BC
Re: KAF-8300 questions? new [Re: lawrie]
      #5777460 - 04/04/13 11:27 AM

There is also other factor like QE, Anti-blooming, RBI to consider when you pick a camera. The cost of acquisition is also a big factor.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
blueman
Photon Catcher
*****

Reged: 07/20/07

Loc: California
Re: KAF-8300 questions? new [Re: Fogboundturtle]
      #5777578 - 04/04/13 12:31 PM

If you buy a nice camera to start with you will not have to sell one or two or three and lose money on each one. I know, I did and now I finally bit the bullet and got a nice camera.
Blueman


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Raginar
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/19/10

Loc: Rapid CIty, SD
Re: KAF-8300 questions? new [Re: blueman]
      #5777668 - 04/04/13 01:06 PM

Blueman is spot on..

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Zoeff
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 06/10/09

Loc: Haarlem, Netherlands
Re: KAF-8300 questions? new [Re: SL63 AMG]
      #5778306 - 04/04/13 06:37 PM

Quote:

Adam,

I really don't find the KAF-8300 to be all that noisy, especially with FLI's electronics in the ML8300.

I just grabed a random luminance image, stretched it as far as possible and uploaded it for you to compare with a stack of luminance and a finished image.

M78 single 10 minute Luminance, no calibration, stretched

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-FLsRbjPJibA/UVztW4NcuKI/AAAAAAAACGQ/3Opv-x...

M78 Stack of 16 10 minute Luminance frames- calibrated

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-11lVoaSnDUk/URtbE5zk72I/AAAAAAAAB14/Zdw_fn...

M78 fully processed LRGB 6.2 hours integration- virtually noise free

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-EnIT-WVnLFU/UTGSWkm_IzI/AAAAAAAACCQ/k1S6JS...

I also had a QSI 583wsg and I never had frames where the noise overwhelmed the signal or was otherwise a problem.

The KAF-8300 is an excellent chip for the price and will serve you well. I think any of the four main manufacturers will provide you good results.




Could you upload a full image instead? The noise would always be quite low if you downscale it like that. I'm curious to see what a microline KAF8300 can do compared to my Atik 383 as it's got 20 degrees more delta below ambient and supposedly better electronics.

Also, what exactly was the chip cooled to?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
jeffweiss9
sage


Reged: 11/09/08

Loc: Sunnyvale, CA
Re: KAF-8300 questions? new [Re: Zoeff]
      #5778823 - 04/04/13 11:52 PM

Dave's FLI ML8300 images (and others') look really nice. I'm looking to purchase an 8300 camera also (seems like the only chip in town right now for my budget) but I also like the SBIG self-guiding feature (and hate flexure). I haven't seen a lot of STT-8300 images and wonder what a similar comparison to Dave's would look like for that camera. Any takers?
-Jeff


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Chris84
newbie


Reged: 12/26/10

Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: KAF-8300 questions? new [Re: jeffweiss9]
      #5778971 - 04/05/13 04:01 AM

Quote:

Dave's FLI ML8300 images (and others') look really nice. I'm looking to purchase an 8300 camera also (seems like the only chip in town right now for my budget) but I also like the SBIG self-guiding feature (and hate flexure). I haven't seen a lot of STT-8300 images and wonder what a similar comparison to Dave's would look like for that camera. Any takers?
-Jeff




Sure, the STT-8300 is a great camera. I have had mine since January, pretty happy with the results so far. Still learning allot though but here is an example:



More taken with the STT8300 can be found here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/92067259@N06/sets/72157632704351925/

or on my website:
spacenoob.com


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Footbag
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 04/13/09

Loc: Scranton, PA
Re: KAF-8300 questions? new [Re: Chris84]
      #5779166 - 04/05/13 09:02 AM

Do the FLI's come with any software?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
neptun2
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 03/04/07

Loc: Bulgaria
Re: KAF-8300 questions? new [Re: Footbag]
      #5779320 - 04/05/13 10:28 AM

I also plan to buy KAF-8300 based camera. I am from Europe so i will probably get the Moravian Instruments G2-8300FW with integrated filter wheel. It has dual stage TEC cooling up to -50 deg below ambient temperature. From the results that i see here the KAF-8300 chip looks very good when properly cooled and matched with good electronics. It also have good combination of wide FOV and high resolution. I personally don't think that this chip is old or can't show anymore good results. I also do not see any other big chip with high resolution and relatively small pixel which can be direct competitor of it.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dan17
super member


Reged: 03/30/09

Re: KAF-8300 questions? new [Re: neptun2]
      #5779342 - 04/05/13 10:41 AM

Do not look no further. Sbig ST 8300 is very good camera and it is twice cheaper than FLI. And it is not noisy at all. Save Your money. Look here http://www.astrobin.com/full/37650/0/?mod=none&real=

I am absolute newbie into astrophotography. This is my second light EVER only. No procesing. Only histogram stech. Thats all I can do with my skills. Poor man mount. Focuser issue. But looks not bad. Don't You think so? Why to spend money for the same chip based camera for the twice the money?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DeanS
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 07/12/05

Loc: Central Kentucky
Re: KAF-8300 questions? new [Re: Footbag]
      #5779345 - 04/05/13 10:42 AM

Quote:

Do the FLI's come with any software?




You have to download their driver package and it has FLIgrab for doing single exposures. Not something you really want to use for serious imaging, more for testing.

MaximDL is really great for camera control and does a good job at calibrating and combining too.

Dean


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Footbag
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 04/13/09

Loc: Scranton, PA
Re: KAF-8300 questions? new [Re: dan17]
      #5779527 - 04/05/13 12:27 PM

Quote:

Do not look no further. Sbig ST 8300 is very good camera and it is twice cheaper than FLI. And it is not noisy at all. Save Your money. Look here http://www.astrobin.com/full/37650/0/?mod=none&real=

I am absolute newbie into astrophotography. This is my second light EVER only. No procesing. Only histogram stech. Thats all I can do with my skills. Poor man mount. Focuser issue. But looks not bad. Don't You think so? Why to spend money for the same chip based camera for the twice the money?




For your second light ever that is great. That's just luminance? That's what I'm really looking forward to. I remember when I switched to a mono planetary cam for solar H-alpha. The difference was night and day. And everything got easier with the better data.

That's what I'm looking forward to.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
elbee
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/02/09

Loc: Arizona
Re: KAF-8300 questions? new [Re: Footbag]
      #5779721 - 04/05/13 02:17 PM

FLI's don't come with any software (other than the drivers you download from their website). i don't know about other brands, but i think SBIG is the only one that gives you complete capture/processing software with the camera.

SBIG's STF-8300 comes with CCDSoft and CCDOps -- both pretty (very) out of date products but it can get you going without additional expense.

if on a limited budget, i don't think there is a better deal than an STF-8300. i think there is one important factor to consider and that is how much cooling do you need? if it is warm in the summers, you probably won't be able to cool the STF to -30C like you could a FLI camera.

I have an ST-8300 (pre-dates the STF)and usually cool to -15C in summer and no problem with -30C in winter. i don't find that to be a issue, just a reality a new purchaser should consider based on their location.

i have seen RAW FITS files from FLI and SBIG KAF-8300 based cameras. they are similar as far as noise and image quality.

if you want to see a RAW FITS (uncalibrated) you can look here:

Single RAW FITS and resulting JPG

The JPG is created from that single 1x30m frame (calibrated and some minor cleanup in photoshop)

once you start adding filter wheels and filters it's pretty difficult to get started for less than $3000 unless you go with a smaller sized chip. adding self guiding puts on another significant expense.

i read a lot about sony chips are very low noise. i only have experience with more traditional CCDs so i am "old school" calibrating with darks, flats, and bias. properly done, i think any KAF-8300 based camera can give nice results.

Edited by elbee (04/05/13 07:46 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dan17
super member


Reged: 03/30/09

Re: KAF-8300 questions? new [Re: Footbag]
      #5779796 - 04/05/13 02:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Do not look no further. Sbig ST 8300 is very good camera and it is twice cheaper than FLI. And it is not noisy at all. Save Your money. Look here http://www.astrobin.com/full/37650/0/?mod=none&real=

I am absolute newbie into astrophotography. This is my second light EVER only. No procesing. Only histogram stech. Thats all I can do with my skills. Poor man mount. Focuser issue. But looks not bad. Don't You think so? Why to spend money for the same chip based camera for the twice the money?




For your second light ever that is great. That's just luminance? That's what I'm really looking forward to. I remember when I switched to a mono planetary cam for solar H-alpha. The difference was night and day. And everything got easier with the better data.

That's what I'm looking forward to.



This is 4x30 min Ha . LIGHTS only


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | (show all)


Extra information
14 registered and 23 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Oldfield, Scott in NC, bilgebay, WOBentley 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 2902

Jump to

CN Forums Home




Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics