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Equipment Discussions >> Cats & Casses

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cavefrog
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Reged: 11/11/08

Loc: loozyanna
large SCT badly damaged, can it be used?
      #5793373 - 04/11/13 10:00 PM

as in title... this has a secondary with a 3/4 inch hole worn completely through the coating in the center, and working its way out toward the edge. this is a C-14, just for proportions sake.
the question is, would it be possible to collimate with this much damage? I cannot seem to get any movement out of the center spot while defocused. it always stays at about 7:00, and flattened in the same area. the primary is damaged also, but not as much in percentage as the secondary. I think if it was just the primary damage, it would be useable (to what degree I could not say), but the secondary damage has me wondering if anything at all could work. am I just wasting my time?

Theo


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cavefrog
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Reged: 11/11/08

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Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: cavefrog]
      #5793572 - 04/11/13 11:45 PM

no answers... anyway, I don't know, it may have been pilot error, but I got the collimation in focus somewhat. I went to the other side of focus, and started to get some results.
I started with a 31mm, then a 20mm, then down to a 9mm. It still doesn't focus very well. judgement was made in a very low (may be the focus problem) Orion nebula. not much contrast. I think I may need to look at something else, but need to rest my back right now.


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: cavefrog]
      #5793582 - 04/11/13 11:55 PM

Huh? Try a photo.

-Rich


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Steven
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Reged: 01/06/04

Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5793635 - 04/12/13 12:36 AM

What caused the damaged?

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tim53
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Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: Steven]
      #5793778 - 04/12/13 03:34 AM

By damage, do you mean the coatings are oxydized or coming off? If so, you should be able to still collimate and try the scope out. If that's what the damage consists of, you could send the mirrors for recoating. You might want to consult someone who's removed the primary from its mount, as it might be RTV'd in place. I don't know about the secondary.

-Tim.


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RogueGazer
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Reged: 06/10/12

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Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: tim53]
      #5793794 - 04/12/13 04:29 AM

I would think you could collimate this poor scope in theory. If it were my scope I would gently tighten the 3 collimation screws all the way down and then back them all off 1 half turn. This should tighten things up and remove any possible slop in the secondary. After that go ahead and collimate with a properly cooled down scope and without using any diagonal. The image may look like doo doo even after collimation but who knows.

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KerryR
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Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: RogueGazer]
      #5794053 - 04/12/13 09:55 AM

Why not remove the secondary and send it in for a re-coat? Not all coaters will coat secondaries with the backing plate attached, but some will. I believe OWL does, as does, I think, Spectrum. The primary could be done, too, but I'm pretty sure you'd have to remove it from the carrier, which, because it's glued on, is a big deal...



Edited by KerryR (04/12/13 09:57 AM)


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cavefrog
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Reged: 11/11/08

Loc: loozyanna
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: RogueGazer]
      #5794063 - 04/12/13 10:03 AM Attachment (83 downloads)

here's the photos. one can see what was the cause, and that it was not oxidation.

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cavefrog
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Reged: 11/11/08

Loc: loozyanna
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: cavefrog]
      #5794066 - 04/12/13 10:05 AM Attachment (60 downloads)

I really wanted to cry when I saw this.

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cavefrog
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Reged: 11/11/08

Loc: loozyanna
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: cavefrog]
      #5794067 - 04/12/13 10:05 AM Attachment (63 downloads)

the culprit in shipping.

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cavefrog
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Loc: loozyanna
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: cavefrog]
      #5794102 - 04/12/13 10:21 AM Attachment (48 downloads)

now there was a few variables thrown in here. I did not have any means to cool the scope, but it was out a couple hours. it was very humid, and I had to use a hair dryer about every 15 mins or so. even though I did finally get it collimated with a 9mm EP, it still does not focus very sharp. the secondary is, well... shot. one can see a chunk 1" long on the left side gone, and dead center coating is gone. would this be a problem? . no really, could this cause bad focus? I am surprised this works at all, that is why when I first could not get collimation under control, I wondered if it was possible to collimate at all with this kind of damage. there is a chunk out of the primary too. it is mostly out of the backside (2" across), and some of the first surface. about 1/2" x 1/8 inch.

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cavefrog
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Reged: 11/11/08

Loc: loozyanna
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: cavefrog]
      #5794110 - 04/12/13 10:26 AM

Tim... waddayathink? can it be recoated? I think I could file down that secondary enough to get some silver fingernail polish to stick!
seriously though, I did not have enough forethought to paint the crater in the secondary flat black. easily enough done though, it is fastar.

Theo


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cavefrog
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Reged: 11/11/08

Loc: loozyanna
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: cavefrog]
      #5794123 - 04/12/13 10:32 AM

Hey Chris! ya out dere listenin'? I thought just too dang late about trying the laser for rough collimation. it wasn't utill I almost had it done , that I thought about it.
it would have been an opportune time to try out what we discussed. It fer sure couldn't of hurt anything.

Theo


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tim53
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Reged: 12/17/04

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Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: cavefrog]
      #5794153 - 04/12/13 10:45 AM

Yikes! Was the scope insured in shipping? At the least, both mirrors need to be refigured. The chip at the edge of the primary isn't too bad, but the one in the secondary is so big it could have affected the figure. And the scratches can only come out by refiguring. If you're covered by insurance, I would contact Celestron a out replacing the optics.

Tim


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: cavefrog]
      #5794160 - 04/12/13 10:50 AM

Is this a new OTA? Any warranty option? The damage looks pretty bad. Yes, it could be collimated, but it will take fair amount of Tamiya XF-1 to keep this from playing merry heck with your contrast.

I agree, though- truly heartbreaking.

The Celestron option will be a new optics set at the bulk of the cost of a new OTA.

Otherwise, this one needs some earnest TLC to make it whole.

-Rich


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cavefrog
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 11/11/08

Loc: loozyanna
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5794197 - 04/12/13 11:15 AM

yes, it was insured. just for grins and giggles, I called the "Tron". They said they need to examine the patient before they could give a prognosis. They would not give either a low or high estimate at the replacement cost of the optics. I know it would cost somewheres around $150.00 for one way shipment, so... end of inquiry.

Second hand purchase, but in brand new condition before shipping.

Theo


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cavefrog
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Reged: 11/11/08

Loc: loozyanna
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: cavefrog]
      #5794204 - 04/12/13 11:20 AM

Tamiya XF-1 ? had to go look that up. you think I should paint the center too , along with the big chip? not a joke...serious question.

Theo


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cavefrog
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Reged: 11/11/08

Loc: loozyanna
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: KerryR]
      #5794218 - 04/12/13 11:29 AM

Quote:

Why not remove the secondary and send it in for a re-coat? Not all coaters will coat secondaries with the backing plate attached, but some will. I believe OWL does, as does, I think, Spectrum. The primary could be done, too, but I'm pretty sure you'd have to remove it from the carrier, which, because it's glued on, is a big deal...






glued on?? wow. I would think that would cause some problems with a mirror that big. however , I have never pulled a primary on an SCT, let alone a C-14. Think I'll leave that for when it really needs to be done, and there is no other way out.

as far as the secondary is concerned, it is a loss. any respectable recoater would laugh at this.

Theo


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
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Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: cavefrog]
      #5794236 - 04/12/13 11:37 AM

No way insurance is going to cover that. Even when the corrector is smashed they say it wasn't their fault and in this case, the secondary let loose and they will not consider that to be their fault.

Best bet is going to be optics replacement by Celestron, but it may not be cost effective.


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KerryR
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Loc: SW Michigan
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: cavefrog]
      #5794392 - 04/12/13 12:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Why not remove the secondary and send it in for a re-coat? Not all coaters will coat secondaries with the backing plate attached, but some will. I believe OWL does, as does, I think, Spectrum. The primary could be done, too, but I'm pretty sure you'd have to remove it from the carrier, which, because it's glued on, is a big deal...






glued on?? wow. I would think that would cause some problems with a mirror that big. however , I have never pulled a primary on an SCT, let alone a C-14. Think I'll leave that for when it really needs to be done, and there is no other way out.

as far as the secondary is concerned, it is a loss. any respectable recoater would laugh at this.

Theo




The primary is held on to the carrier by the threaded central post that slides on the baffle (to allow focusing). A retainer threads onto that, pinching the primary between the 2 parts. The glue is used to hold the primary in collimation. As far as I know, all Celestron ota's are done this way. Meade's are not, or at least that used to be the case, which made re-coats and cleanings far easier.

Like the others, I think it's unlikely you're going to see insurance compensation because the issue was probably not due to mishandling, unlike, say, a crushed box and dented tube; this could have happened no matter how well the tube was packed. Sad, but I don't think the optics are ever going to work very well. At least Celestron can replace them with a new (matched) set, but that's going to be very expensive...

Not sure who should be saddled with this, you or the person you bought it from. Doesn't seem like you should have to eat all this-- none of it was your fault, and it sounds like the secondary may not have been tightened down sufficiently before shipping-- new scopes ship all the time without loosing the secondary. This would suggest a fatal error on the part of the previous owner... Yuck. I wouldn't want to have to deal with this.


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jrcrillyAdministrator
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Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: cavefrog]
      #5794545 - 04/12/13 02:01 PM

Quote:

Second hand purchase, but in brand new condition before shipping.

Theo




That's a tough break for the seller - unless he tricks you into thinking that it's your fault he chose the carrier he selected, or the packing method he used. There's a reason that only the seller can buy insurance. It's because only the seller has any liability.


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KerryR
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Reged: 12/05/07

Loc: SW Michigan
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: jrcrilly]
      #5794774 - 04/12/13 03:43 PM

As John suggests, it doesn't seem fair that you would get stuck with a loss-- this wasn't your fault by any stretch, yet you're the one who's positioned lose out. You should consider getting your money back from the seller and let the seller deal with the issue-- it's more his/her fault than yours or the shippers. At least that's the way it's looking to me. This doesn't fit into the "all sales final" realm, unless you bought it knowing it was broken.

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Geo.
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 10/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: KerryR]
      #5795121 - 04/12/13 05:57 PM

Yes, legally the seller carries the liability to get the cargo to the buyer safely unless the parties have expressly agreed otherwise.

See: Primer on Freight Loss and Damage Claims http://networkfob.com/pdfs/claimprimer.pdf

As the shipper's liability runs to the consignor, he's the one who has the claim for loss and has to prosecute it. He cannot shift his burden to the consignee. Paypal will enforce the consignee's rights if the seller baulks.

Hey, wasn't there someone here last week looking for a corrector?


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orion61

*****

Reged: 10/20/07

Loc: Birthplace James T Kirk
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: Geo.]
      #5795160 - 04/12/13 06:13 PM

If the packaging passes the minimum it should be covered.
If they decide to reop the packages from the back of a Semi instead of lifting it is their error.
There is a thing called expected handeling care of your package.
There will be signs of mis-handeling on the box, even if it landed flat.
Are there pics before shipping? Don't let them give you guff.
You paid for their service and they are responsible for its care while in their hands.
I have battled with shippers about 10 times.. the latest was
just paid off last month, after them trying to decline the
claim!! I wouldn't take it.. A quick letter from my Attorney got their attention.....
Don't give up.. you may be able to buy it back for 10 cents on the dollar for parts... You could sell the Corrector easily.. Not that it would be a premium match.. but may get another system working.


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Steven
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Reged: 01/06/04

Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: orion61]
      #5795533 - 04/12/13 10:39 PM

From the pictures, the secondary back plate is still intake. That means it came off because the collimation screws are not tighten well. Does it have Bob Knobs or the original screws? It sure point to the seller negligence.

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orion61

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Reged: 10/20/07

Loc: Birthplace James T Kirk
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: Steven]
      #5795589 - 04/12/13 11:12 PM

After looking again it does look like the secondary screws were not tight enough and they vibrated out causing the secondary to fall out and chip the Primary, Scratch it up.
I didn't catch that, I thought the secondary was knocked off or the backing plate..
This goes right back to the sender.. His fault.
How was it paid for? If by card get them involved.. If by PayPal start a dispute. BY ALL MEANS do it NOW!
If you sent a MO and it has cleared it may be too late.
Lets hope he will stand behind his problem, You certainly shouldn't have to eat it on this one...
I'm feeling bad for you about right now...


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cavefrog
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Reged: 11/11/08

Loc: loozyanna
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: Steven]
      #5795622 - 04/12/13 11:27 PM

OK, this post was not about whose fault it was. The guy already is sending me back my money, as I am sending him back the scope. I appreciate the backup as to what caused this, but I really don't want to make this seller feel any worse about the situation. He has lost a valuable piece of equipment, and I feel really bad for him. This has been a very trusting transaction, and I hope the best for him with dealing with the insurance co.

Theo


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cavefrog
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 11/11/08

Loc: loozyanna
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: cavefrog]
      #5795633 - 04/12/13 11:34 PM

"Hey, wasn't there someone here last week looking for a corrector? "

This is something I had thought about, and was going to mention to the seller. an unmatched corrector is better than no corrector.

Funny thing that... it was the corrector that I was worried about, and had mentioned to the seller. turns out it was the only glass part that "almost" did not get damaged. there is a small scratch or 2 on the inside, but for someone needing a corrector, it is totally usable.

Theo


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cavefrog
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Reged: 11/11/08

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Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: cavefrog]
      #5795651 - 04/12/13 11:46 PM

Dang it! It was a beautiful piece of equipment, ( as he types the tears are falling between the keys) He sent me over 40 pictures before during and after packing. plenty of documentation. He also sold me a CGE polar scope (yah, yah, yah, I know, ya don't need one.) and a 31 Nagler. both brand new condition. not a mark on 'em. The OTA was in original packing. we had discussed double boxing, but It was gonna cost another $130.00 or so, and I figured it had been shipped twice in a single box and survived, and what was good enough for Celestron, was good enough for me. I don't think it would have helped anyway.

Theo


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: cavefrog]
      #5795752 - 04/13/13 01:25 AM

I've heard of something like this happening before. And it may have been a c-14.

For future reference, you'd want to paint anything which wasn't a functional mirror surface. The paint is very forgiving and like I said, will come off with isopropyl alcohol if you want a redo.

-Rich


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KerryR
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Loc: SW Michigan
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: cavefrog]
      #5796431 - 04/13/13 11:20 AM

Quote:

OK, this post was not about whose fault it was. The guy already is sending me back my money, as I am sending him back the scope. I appreciate the backup as to what caused this, but I really don't want to make this seller feel any worse about the situation. He has lost a valuable piece of equipment, and I feel really bad for him. This has been a very trusting transaction, and I hope the best for him with dealing with the insurance co.

Theo




No one here meant to derail the thread. We said those things because it looked as though you were going to accept the problems, eat the inevitable loss, and we all wanted to be sure you knew you didn't have to... All that talk of painting, re-coating, using the scope as is, etc. I'm glad you're not incurring the loss. I'm also sad for the original owner-- this represents a huge loss for him.


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orion61

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Reged: 10/20/07

Loc: Birthplace James T Kirk
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5796449 - 04/13/13 11:30 AM

There is a possability that the mirrors may just be able to be stripped and recoated. Those coatings look a lot worse than they sometimes are when scuffed

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Geo.
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 10/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: large SCT badly damaged, can it be used? new [Re: Steven]
      #5798556 - 04/14/13 03:01 PM

Quote:

From the pictures, the secondary back plate is still intake. That means it came off because the collimation screws are not tighten well. Does it have Bob Knobs or the original screws? It sure point to the seller negligence.




Hard to say. I shipped a Meade 10" to the left coast. when it arrived the secondary baffle had almost vibrated off. It was as tight as it should have been when it left here, but with temp changes and vibration things will come apart. I can Loctite a baffle, but I don't think you'd want to get an SCT with the collimation screws locked up.


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