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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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ibase
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: johntrob]
      #5834188 - 05/01/13 11:48 AM

Quote:

Nice article, thanks Hernando.



You're welcome, 'twas fascinating to see the x-ray the 1st time, still is. So, reverse-engineered? Copied? Cloned? Obvious? Answer is as good as anyone else's maybe.

Best,


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Brian Schmidt
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: ibase]
      #5834381 - 05/01/13 01:18 PM

I know what you're talking about. I recently sold a 12 Nagler, and have a sale pending on my 8 Ethos, with the idea of replacing both with the 10 Ethos. I experienced sticker shock when I started shopping around for the 10 New, and saw that it was $650. The cost will bem mostly paid from the sale of the other two eyepieces, but this may be my last Ethos at this price. I seem to remember the mid focal length Ethos coasting around the $475 price point in the not so distant past.

Edited by Brian Schmidt (05/01/13 05:43 PM)


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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Brian Schmidt]
      #5834445 - 05/01/13 01:44 PM

Over the years I have had very good luck on the used market (and not just on Tele Vue). About half of my eyepieces were bought this way.

As to the OP: The costs of manufactured goods (excepting electronics) rarely go down over time (unless of course the design changes to cut manufacturing processes). And you'll miss a lot of great observing waiting for a sale.

It is what it is.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5834467 - 05/01/13 01:52 PM

Quote:


Anyway, I don't have a problem with TV's business model and pricing decisions at all. It's their business and their products are top notch and the warranty is lifetime, but I think they will lose a lot of business on the 21 that they otherwise could pick up.




I am not one who keeps up with the latest and greatest. I have several sets of eyepieces but my main set consists of 8 Naglers ranging from the 31mm to the 3.5mm, there's a couple of Barlows and a Paracorr in there too. I purchased them all used and all told, I have more than $2000 in that case. But I built it up over a period of probably 7 or 8 years, an eyepiece at a time, slowly replacing other eyepieces, learning what I liked, what I didn't like.

I think the market for TeleVue is for those who have a significant investment in their equipment so that the eyepieces represent a smaller fraction of the total investment.

For example, if one has a few thousand dollars invested in an NP-101 in order to have that wide, flat field of view, then investing in the 31mm Nagler rather than the ES-30 makes sense. Or say you are Mel Bartel's and you have built an 13 inch F/3 Newtontian designed to provide the richest possible field of view, the 21mm Ethos would seem to be worth the investment, the scope was designed around that particular eyepiece.

If one is looking for the best value, maybe TeleVue is not the best choice unless purchased used.

Jon

Edited by Jon Isaacs (05/01/13 02:54 PM)


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Binojunky
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5834519 - 05/01/13 02:19 PM

I picked up a nice new 14mm Radian last year from a star party vendor at 60% of the regular price, all my other TV eyepieces are bought used with the exception of a couple of plossls, as for the scopes , lovely but too rich for me,its not that I can,t afford them, its just I not prepared to pay the price,too each his own,DA.

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Astrojensen
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Illinois]
      #5834550 - 05/01/13 02:36 PM

Quote:

I always heard that TV is little better is because its in your head and pay 500 dollars more!




I don't think TeleVue eyepieces are $500 more expensive, just because it's a brand name and the difference is "in your head". They really are amazingly good eyepieces, just like Rolls-Royce, Mercedes and Bugatti are amazingly good cars. I just can't afford them, just as I can't afford a Mercedes. But I can afford a used VW Passat and I can afford ES and both take me there in style and comfort, with good performance at a reasonable price.

The last few percent of performance - and the means taken to ensure that you get that performance in every sample - that is what drive prices up.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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hfjacinto
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5834574 - 05/01/13 02:47 PM

Quote:


I don't think TeleVue eyepieces are $500 more expensive





Price of a 20MM 100 * ES: $299
Price of a 21MM Ethos: $895
Difference: $596

Price of a 30MM 82* ES: $250
Price of a 31MM Nagler T5: $695
Difference: $445


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coutleef
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: BillP]
      #5834614 - 05/01/13 03:09 PM

i must admit that i bougth recently a 68 Es 24 mm to use essentially in my sct (to better frame star clusters). i would not have bougth a pan 24 for such a limited use at the price it sells even used.

The ES was not 90 percent of the performance of the panoptic: in some aspects it was evenbetter and i would consider it a draw between these EPs.

At some point the cost of some of the TV EPs will have to come down unless the price of ES goes up ( which may well happen now)


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dyslexic nam
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #5834615 - 05/01/13 03:09 PM

I think what he was saying is that they aren't that much more expensive JUST BECAUSE it is a brand name.

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Astrojensen
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #5834623 - 05/01/13 03:12 PM

I see what I said might have been misunderstood a little and/or taken somewhat out of context. I did not doubt that the TV eyepieces were more than $500 more expensive than ES, but what I said was that they were not that much more expensive just because they were a brand name, but because TeleVue really did put a lot of effort into them.

Just to clarify.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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FirstSight
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5834625 - 05/01/13 03:13 PM

Quote:

Over the years I have had very good luck on the used market (and not just on Tele Vue). About half of my eyepieces were bought this way.





Another potentially IMPORTANT distinction between Televue and Explore Scientific for purchasers of used eyepieces is that ES's 5-year warranty after intial purchase of a new EP *DOES* automatically transfer to a second (used) owner, whereas Televue's 5-year warranty *only* applies to the original purchaser (i.e. if you're a purchaser of a used Televue EP, you get *no* warranty). True, the quality control for eyepieces at Televue is stringent enough that warranty coverage for defects is mostly a moot point...but not entirely, as in the following example. I purchased a 26T5 Nagler used from someone who owned it less than a year, and had owned it myself for about two and a half years, when I noticed some spots on the eyelens coating that were stubbornly resistant to all my attempts to clean them off. There were no nicks or scratches on the eyelens whatsoever, nor did the spots at all resemble any sort of fungal damage...instead, it was simply some sort of unexplained deterioration of the coatings. FORTUNATELY the problem causes no visible degradation whatever of the actual view through the EP, but OTOH I could never resell the EP except with full disclosure of the issue, at a heavy discount to the price. Fortunately also, I have neither need nor plans to ever sell it, so it's purely an issue (perhaps) for my estate someday.

Nevertheless, in the very occasional instance where a purchaser of a used TV vs ES eyepiece does run into a defect, the difference in warranty coverage could be VERY significant. It would probably cost me roughly in the ballpark of $200 to restore my 26T5 to original condition, should I feel inclined at some point to do so.


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audioaficionado
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Binojunky]
      #5834643 - 05/01/13 03:20 PM

For the modest scope I have, it would be foolish to spend the bux for a TV set. However if I had a premium large dob, It might be the best way to get the most out of the total system investment.

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MikeRatcliff
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: audioaficionado]
      #5834659 - 05/01/13 03:28 PM

The world currency situation also affects the TV/ES price differences. TV being made in Taiwan/Japan vs ES in mainland China. Recent trends may favor a narrowing of the price gap. We'll see.

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John Rhodes
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5834682 - 05/01/13 03:43 PM

Quote:


Another potentially IMPORTANT distinction between Televue and Explore Scientific for purchasers of used eyepieces is that ES's 5-year warranty after intial purchase of a new EP *DOES* automatically transfer to a second (used) owner, whereas Televue's 5-year warranty *only* applies to the original purchaser




As of 1-1-12 Tele Vue eyepieces, Paracorr, and Powermates come
with a LIFETIME - WARRANTY but it is not transferable.


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linux
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Reged: 01/04/13

Loc: Evans, Ga.
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: ibase]
      #5834687 - 05/01/13 03:49 PM

Quote:

Linux, the ES 100's are very good value EP's; have the 14mm, quite a performer. It's interesting also to see an x-ray of your Ethos 13mm and the 100ES14mm, click here.

Best,




Yes, it looks like a knock-off design for sure. If TV were Apple, the patent lawsuits would be flying.


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Paul G
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5834712 - 05/01/13 04:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Linux, the ES 100's are very good value EP's; have the 14mm, quite a performer. It's interesting also to see an x-ray of your Ethos 13mm and the 100ES14mm, click here.

Best,




Yes, it looks like a knock-off design for sure. If TV were Apple, the patent lawsuits would be flying.




That's one reason I stick with Televue. I prefer to reward the innovators with my business so they can stick around and innovate some more.


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linux
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Reged: 01/04/13

Loc: Evans, Ga.
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5834715 - 05/01/13 04:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I own several TV EPs, but have not bought another for many years. I completed my collection with ES and XW. Cost was the primary reason.

I participated in a blind test between an ES14 and Ethos 13 when the ES first came out. After about 30 minutes, and observing many objects, I picked the ES14. I was quite surprised, and somewhat embarrassed. Have not bought a TV since.




One of my observing buddies usually wants to use his ES eyepieces in my scope with a fine Royce mirror. One night we did a comparison with my 13 Ethos. After two minutes he pronounced the ES the winner.

OTOH, I found the ES underwhelming. 90% as good maybe. Which in absolute standards would have been great 10 years ago.

I can't say that cost/value does not play a key role here. His eyepiece strategy is to have lots of them, and despite a well-off retirement he doesn't like to spend a lot on equipment. For him ES is a great value.

My eyepiece strategy involves fewer eyepieces so I am willing to pay more for finer ones (or willing to go to the used market to stretch my money). Given the limited time I have for the hobby and the effort I put in (building scopes, driving to the dark site, being exhausted the next day) I'm not very forgiving on so/so performance. It has to be great or it wastes my precious time.




Point well taken and I feel the same way even though I'm fairly new to the hobby. At this point with my XT8, bought used, I have roughly 5x the cost in eyepieces already, however I've convinced myself that this is an endeavor that I'll stick with. I'm retired and have the time and money to pursue it; my next scope will likely be an Orion XX16G so I'll have a nice piece of equipment that will better justify the EP expense. I've always felt that the best quality you could afford is a good investment if you keep it...

That being said, I simply could not bring myself to fork over $895 when I could get 95% of the viewing experience for $299 ($277 actually, a 2nd). There's a point when you're wasting your money and for the delta I could buy another $650 Ethos or several ES eyepieces. I'll probably stay with my plan to round out my stable with more Ethos, even at $650.

Down the road, maybe I'll relent on the 21 and sell the ES if I get to where I can really tell the difference, but I doubt it. I think TV is losing market share with that pricing but maybe they don't care. I can see an initial higher price to pay for the engineering and tooling (look at the ES100 30mm - $1200), but it needs to be somewhat competitive. At $895 it is not and a lot of responders here have verified that.


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BillP
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5834720 - 05/01/13 04:11 PM

Quote:

Yes, it looks like a knock-off design for sure. If TV were Apple, the patent lawsuits would be flying.




Not quite...there are probably about a dozen clones of iPhones for sale in China. Apple has no way to bring a lawsuit there unless their patent is an international patent, or a patent applicable in China (is my understanding).


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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5834723 - 05/01/13 04:13 PM

Quote:

Yes, it looks like a knock-off design for sure. If TV were Apple, the patent lawsuits would be flying.







Apple's last quarterly balance sheet shows a cash horde (current assets) in excess of $63 billion.

I doubt our home-grown eyepiece company has the kind of wherewithal to pursue a patent infringement case to it's logical conclusion.


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BillP
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5834842 - 05/01/13 05:22 PM

Jeff,

HAPPY BIRTHDAY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



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