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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5836669 - 05/02/13 04:15 PM

17 years.

And patent is only effective if you aggressively patent new enhancements to effectively extend that period and also aggressively enforce you patents, both of which cost big bucks. That's why Apple does it and Televue doesn't. I don't think Televue has filed for a patent since the 1980s.

- Jim


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WesC
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 02/06/13

Loc: La Crescenta, CA
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: russell23]
      #5836687 - 05/02/13 04:28 PM

This is a really interesting discussion... as someone who is a fan of TV eyepieces I am looking at ES with curiosity, especially the 30mm 82-degree ep that's 1/3 the price of the 31mm Nagler. :/

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GeneT
Ely Kid
*****

Reged: 11/07/08

Loc: South Texas
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Starman1]
      #5836726 - 05/02/13 04:52 PM

Quote:

It has driven many other companies out of the eyepiece market (in 2009, there were almost 1600 eyepieces available to the US consumer; now fewer than 1000).




Might this be why ES has dropped their prices--to run other companies out of town? Did our steel mills suffer over the years because of the Chinese dumping product below cost? For me the question is not why TeleVue prices are so high, but why ES prices are so low.


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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
*****

Reged: 06/24/03

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: dscarpa]
      #5836733 - 05/02/13 04:54 PM

Quote:

I have a 20 ES100 too, after CN discount about $290. For me the cost of a 21 Ethos is almost 2 weeks pay. I also have a 14 ES82 that cost me $99. That said I've got bunch of TV eyepieces. I tend to go top shelf on eyepieces that like my 13 Ethos are used for lunar-planetary. Even so the 82 ES isn't that far behind my TVs for it. My $220 Chinese made 16 WO UWAN is the equal of my TV and Pentax for everything. David



TeleVue's average eyepiece price is $405.67, and that's skewed by the Ethos eyepieces.
Take the Ethos out of the picture and the average is $339.29
Not quite so out of reach, eh?


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Astrojensen
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: MikeBOKC]
      #5836751 - 05/02/13 05:02 PM

Quote:

For most of us a quality eyepiece is something that will last and be used for many years, in some cases decades. How many hours will it ride in a diagonal over those decades? Thousands probably for an avid and active astronomer. When you look at it that way (and I do) any substantial up front investment in any astronomy equipment is just that, an investment, not a cost or expense.




In order to invest, you need to have something to invest. I saved for almost six months before I could afford my three ES82 eyepieces. That amount of cash couldn't even buy me the 31mm Nagler. And an eyepiece with those data (focal length, FOV) was what I badly wanted, though my observing projects also screamed for some wide, short eyepieces. Now I also got an 18mm and an 11mm, almost as if they were thrown in for free. I couldn't find a used 31mm Nagler here in Europe and nobody please give me the "just get one from A-Mart or CN classifieds" answer. Almost no one in the US wants to ship outside the US. Just look at the Classifieds here on CN and note how many ads end in "Ships CONUS only". And if you can only afford to invest $500 (or whatever) it's a bit meaningless to call a $1000 something "an investment", because it's never going to be that, it's just a dream.

Oh sure, I could have sat on the money and waited, slowly saving up more, but then what would have happened? I would run the risk that the ES sale would be over or all the eyepieces would be out of stock. I could also have run the risk that something unfortunate would have happened to my car or something and the money would be used on something else.

And more importantly, then I would not have been outside with four excellent 82° AFOV eyepieces, like I can be now. Maybe with one, if I was lucky, but definitely not four.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Aquila1185
member


Reged: 12/15/12

Loc: Coatesville, PA
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5836778 - 05/02/13 05:19 PM

My original plans had been to save up and accumulate an Ethos collection very slowly, as I built up the money. Reading the responses here, the ES route definitely seems the way to go. Not a concern now, as I'm still somewhat poor, but the calculus has been seriously altered. If you all are saying there is no (or very little) appreciable difference between an ES 100 and an Ethos (and, indeed, it does appear that a lot of you are going off personal preference) then doubling the cost just isn't worth it for young astronomers like me (I'm 27). That extra money can be put into my new house, put into retirement, etc.

The key for me (and I think, a lot of people in my position) is cost to results. Would I love to be able to put out that kind of money for the "best"? Heck yes! Were I 60 years old, close to retirement, house paid off, kids through college, no problem. However (and here's where I may be diverging from some); if I can get 95% of the value for half the price, I'm going to do it, especially if that 5% is debatable.

I don't know that "good enough" is a measure of "settling." I fully understand that you get what you pay for. But, what are you paying for? Telescopes also have this law of diminishing returns. My 3" cost 130 dollars. The Zhumell Z10 and Z12 (my current "window shopping" favorites for when I get a couple bucks) are ~500 and 700 respectively. The 16" Lightbridge is 2000. Then, you get into the crazy territory, five-figure Obsessions, et al. However, to go from 16" to 25" gives you what, one magnitude? I'm sure everyone here makes those calculations, even in telescopes.


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Astrojensen
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Starman1]
      #5836802 - 05/02/13 05:31 PM

Quote:

Take the Ethos out of the picture and the average is $339.29
Not quite so out of reach, eh?




I wish that was the price I had to pay. Here in Denmark, the Naglers average $542. If I get them from Switzerland, I can get them for an average $414. The ES82's average just $211 over here.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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a__l
professor emeritus


Reged: 11/24/07

Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Starman1]
      #5836815 - 05/02/13 05:36 PM

Quote:


3) There are ways in which the TeleVue products are superior: coatings and light transmission, superior polish, suppression of scattered light (a biggie, in my book), edge-of-field astigmatism correction, edge of field vignetting control, edge of field distortion correction, mechanical construction, lower incidence of dirt in between lenses, tighter tolerances for barrel diameters, individual QC testing, continual improvement of the product without price increases, more expensive glass types used, etc.





suppression of scattered light...

I agree. I compared Ethos 13mm and ES 14mm (both 100 deg) in scopes 18 and 24". My opinion ES14 - mediocre eyepiece (in comparison). Especially on bright objects in these scopes...


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5836821 - 05/02/13 05:41 PM

Quote:

For some reason I assumed that TV was made in the US, but is actually manufactured in Japan and Taiwan. ES is a Chinese owned company based in Arkansas but manufactured in China. Perhaps the cost of living and business taxes in NY affect the prices somewhat compared to Arkansas, but probably not by a factor of 2 or 3.




I believe that Explore Scientific is a subsidiary of Guangzhou Jinghua Optics and Electronics CO., Ltd which is located in China.

Jon


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: dscarpa]
      #5836838 - 05/02/13 05:47 PM

Quote:

I have a 20 ES100 too, after CN discount about $290. For me the cost of a 21 Ethos is almost 2 weeks pay. I also have a 14 ES82 that cost me $99. That said I've got bunch of TV eyepieces. I tend to go top shelf on eyepieces that like my 13 Ethos are used for lunar-planetary. Even so the 82 ES isn't that far behind my TVs for it. My $220 Chinese made 16 WO UWAN is the equal of my TV and Pentax for everything. David




I have the 28mm UWAN, it is not the equal of the 31mm Nagler, particularly in a fast scope. Ergonomically, it misses the boat as well.

Jon


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Astrojensen
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5836855 - 05/02/13 05:55 PM

Quote:

I have the 28mm UWAN, it is not the equal of the 31mm Nagler, particularly in a fast scope. Ergonomically, it misses the boat as well.




Ergonomically, the UWAN 28 is a horrible abomination of an eyepiece. Whoever thought the idea of making an almost 4" wide eyepiece with a flat top was a great one should be taken outside and beaten with said eyepiece until he promises never to get such ideas again.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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dscarpa
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 03/15/08

Loc: San Diego Ca.
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5836869 - 05/02/13 06:07 PM

He's probably working for Meade now. My 18 Meade UWA needs a 31 Nagler size eyepiece bolt case which my 24 Meade UWA gets stuck in! The image in these eyepieces as well as the 20 ES100 is a lot like that of my 22 T4, very nice but short of Ethos quality. The presentation of the Ethos and T4 tops the others by a fair bit to my eye anyway. David

Edited by dscarpa (05/02/13 06:18 PM)


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russell23
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 05/31/09

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5836884 - 05/02/13 06:13 PM

Let me preface this by saying that this is intended to be lighthearted ... but ...

I think I'm getting a case of pricing whiplash. Back in the days of the long Brandon thread we had people upset that Brandons were way overpriced -- people that didn't seem to think the 100% Made in the USA (with higher labor costs for subcontracted parts) could possibly explain the Brandon's costing 2-3x a UO ortho manufactured in Japan.

Now people are upset that ES eyepieces are underpriced. Given the supply issues I think that is a fair conclusion ... but since when do people complain that they've paid too little for something?

Dave


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russell23
Post Laureate
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Reged: 05/31/09

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5836888 - 05/02/13 06:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I have the 28mm UWAN, it is not the equal of the 31mm Nagler, particularly in a fast scope. Ergonomically, it misses the boat as well.




Ergonomically, the UWAN 28 is a horrible abomination of an eyepiece. Whoever thought the idea of making an almost 4" wide eyepiece with a flat top was a great one should be taken outside and beaten with said eyepiece until he promises never to get such ideas again.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark






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John Huntley
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 07/16/06

Loc: South West England
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5836985 - 05/02/13 06:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Take the Ethos out of the picture and the average is $339.29
Not quite so out of reach, eh?




I wish that was the price I had to pay. Here in Denmark, the Naglers average $542. If I get them from Switzerland, I can get them for an average $414. The ES82's average just $211 over here.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark




In the UK an ES 20 / 100 costs $660. Apparently ES won't allow UK dealers to use anything near the US prices

So we are buying them from US dealers and paying the import duty / mail handling charges and still saving big time. Seems rather crazy to have to do this though


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JMW
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/11/07

Loc: Nevada
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: John Huntley]
      #5837229 - 05/02/13 09:02 PM

I just sold 3 Naglar T4 eyepieces on Astromart last night. Haven't used them since I filled my eyepiece case with 100 degree AFOV eyepieces from TV and ES. I bought the eyepieces for about 72% of list and sold them for a little more than 50% of current list. I used them for about 4 years. I figure about $25/year for each eyepiece. They are still as good as the day I bought them and a couple of other people will be happy to have them.

I had 2 local buyers that I preferred over out of country buyers. One out of country buyer's reply just screamed of fraud. The other looked legit from Australia but I wasn't going to hassle with that when I can sell to local buyers. One buyer meet me at my work place at lunch about 15 hours after I placed the ad.

I think quality astronomy stuff holds it's value well and is easy to sell. Optics pricing holds up because new stuff isn't getting cheaper usually. Electronic astronomy stuff looses value much more quickly. Longer focal length huge dobs take a big hit because more people want the short focal length ladderless scopes. If you want to use a big heavy dob with a ladder it's a used buyer's market.


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Mariner@sg
sage
*****

Reged: 06/28/12

Loc: Little Red Dot
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5837358 - 05/02/13 10:19 PM

Quote:

I couldn't find a used 31mm Nagler here in Europe and nobody please give me the "just get one from A-Mart or CN classifieds" answer. Almost no one in the US wants to ship outside the US. Just look at the Classifieds here on CN and note how many ads end in "Ships CONUS only".




Same sentiments here. I have seen many items that I want slip through because of that. Fortunately, there are quite a fair bit of friendly CNers who are willing to go through that hassle for non-US buyers.


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ibase
Vendor Affiliate
*****

Reged: 03/20/08

Loc: Manila, Philippines 121*E 14*N
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Mariner@sg]
      #5837402 - 05/02/13 10:43 PM

An option for outside-USA residents is to buy & pay online at US prices and have the astro gear purchases delivered at the US address of a door-to-door delivery service, then ship one time via cheaper cargo ship route.


Best,


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DrBoring
member
*****

Reged: 04/04/13

Loc: Western Ohio
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: ibase]
      #5837910 - 05/03/13 09:35 AM

I've really enjoyed reading this thread! The x-ray link was super cool!

One point that has not been brought up yet ... You can rest assured that purchasing TV EP will not leave you with buyers remorse for the quality of your purchase. Reviews compare TV EP vs any other and show marginal differences ... Well, nobody gets a lemon. If you live alone in a cave as I do, then a TV EP purchase brings no further concern.

Second ... The ethos are their top of the line EP, so they are the most expensive. It's not going to be in everyone's budget, the way a celestron CGE PRO 1400 edge HD Telescope isn't in everyone's budget (msrp $9999.00).


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: DrBoring]
      #5837934 - 05/03/13 09:48 AM

Quote:


One point that has not been brought up yet ...




Another thing that I have not seen mentioned is that TeleVue stocks parts and they will clean and/or repair your eyepiece if need be. Since most damage is due to operator error, dropped for example or somehow damaged, this is service beyond that covered by a warranty.

Jon


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