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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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Binojunky
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 12/25/10

Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Paul G]
      #5839967 - 05/04/13 11:49 AM

Worth mentioning the TV eyepieces aren,t bullet proof either, go back over this forum and their have been a few cases of defects,one case that came to mind was a retaining ring chewed up during assembly,to be fair the problems were rectified, however other manufacturers/importers of eyepieces have a similar stellar (pun intended) reputation for customer service,my own opinion is that however good TV eyepieces are you tend to pay a bit for the name just like a high end watch or whatever, this however should not put you off if its the item you want,DA.

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Sean Puett
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Geo31]
      #5840166 - 05/04/13 01:57 PM

I own both ES and TeleVue eyepieces. I used to complain about how much TV eyepieces cost but, they keep selling. If they weren't, TV would have to lower the price but, they sell enough it seems.
The first purchase that changed my opinion was the paracorr. It has excellent fit and finish and it works EXACTLY as advertised. How many astro ads promise far more than they deliver? Too many. Anyway this item works very well. Then trying some Nagler and Ethos eyepieces at star parties and comparing them to my ES eyepieces made me appreciate the quality of TeleVue eyepieces as well. Then I bought a TeleVue refractor. Again excellent quality and performance which sold me on Al Nagler's vision of extreme widefield views with larger aperture than what was available before. Flat field 4"f5.4 &5"f5.2 are two of my favorite refractors made today. They compliment large reflectors perfectly and give wonderful uberwide views.
Star parties are great for pointing your future purchases in the right direction. I got to try some Naglers and compare them to my ES82s. I also got to use some ethos and took note of the differences. ES eyepieces are great values and are the best that I have used at their price point.
TeleVue eyepieces are an obvious improvement though and the extra polishing and attention to detail costs money. TeleVue also offers repair services if you drop one or scratch a lens or buy one with damage. Plus if you call with a question, you could easily be talking with an amateur astronomy legend. Service like that is another reason I like to deal with the great American companies like starlight, moonlite, and TeleVue. They have better customer service than almost any other business including outside of this hobby.
I almost forgot to say that TeleVue eyepieces are far better than ES during the day. Try that comparison yourself if you doubt.


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jrbarnett
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Reged: 02/28/06

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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Bakes]
      #5840178 - 05/04/13 02:05 PM

I don't think that the Delos is a good example. ES has NO eyepiece design competitive with Delos. It has a Panoptic clone line, but no 70-degree LER line. The Delos' competition is the Pentax XW, Nikon NAV-SW and to a lesser extent Vixen LVW, and compared to those eyepieces the Deloses are priced at a premium over all but the rare Nikons. The Delos is also just a 6 element design. Not as costly to manufacture as the much more complex Ethos.

ES has targeted the Ethos, Nagler and Panoptic formats, and I expect that's why Televue went Delos. For some elbow room in a segment where the competition is either old ans stale (LVW), nearly invisible (Nikon) or dying (Pentax).

I'll add that I've compared the 41mm, 35mm and 27mm Panoptics to the corresponding ES 68s, and the ES68s, not the Televues, were more attenuated in my scopes. I no longer have the ESes. I still have the Panoptics. In fact, I offed all of my ES eyepieces (a mix of 100s, 82s and 68s) after extended used versus the Televue originals. Go figure.

I consider ESes low end eyepieces, Televues mid-range, and the exotic stuff (Zeiss, Nikon, Leitz, etc.) high-end. It's all relative I suppose.

Regards,

Jim

Edited by jrbarnett (05/04/13 02:10 PM)


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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5840273 - 05/04/13 03:14 PM

Quote:

I don't think that the Delos is a good example. ES has NO eyepiece design competitive with Delos.




Maybe their X-ray machine is broken?

Quote:

The Delos is also just a 6 element design. Not as costly to manufacture as the much more complex Ethos.




Really? I did not know Tele Vue released that information. From their marketing they give the impression Delos is some sort of slight variant of Ethos trading apparent field for eye relief. But then again, clarity is not what marketing is about.

If one makes the reasonable assumption of the same finish specifications perhaps a slightly simpler design contributes to the slight edge some have attributed in head-to-head.


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ibase
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Loc: Manila, Philippines 121*E 14*N
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5840292 - 05/04/13 03:25 PM

Quote:


Really? I did not know Tele Vue released that information.




Did we forget that the most interesting astronomer in the universe has x-ray eyes?

One link on Delos 6 (have one, love it!) vs Ethos here.

Best,


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Bakes
super member


Reged: 01/06/09

Loc: Stratford, CT
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5840368 - 05/04/13 04:21 PM

Hi Jim,

I am interested in your opinion of the Vixen LVW series. Are they really playing in the same league as the Delos line? Aside from the eye relief?

To keep it on topic, the Vixens are only 2/3rds the price of the Delos. How do they do for contrast and sharpness?


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Sean Puett
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Reged: 09/06/10

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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5840411 - 05/04/13 04:45 PM

If the 21e is too expensive, and others are not, buy the shorter focal lengths that will give you a 1 &2mm exit pupils. There are also naglers if you want to spend less. 100* afov eyepieces are not required to enjoy astronomy. TeleVue also makes some of the best plossls on the planet all of which are around 100-150. Since gso plossls are $20-30, does that mean TeleVue plossls are overpriced? No, it means they are higher quality and corrected to f4.

Edited by Sean Puett (05/05/13 11:57 AM)


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planet earth
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Sean Puett]
      #5840421 - 05/04/13 04:50 PM

Quote:

it means they are higher quality and corrected to f4.



I don't think any plossls are corrected for f4 scopes.
I could be wrong!
Clear Skies
Sam


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Sean Puett
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: planet earth]
      #5840433 - 05/04/13 04:59 PM

TeleVue plossls are corrected to f4.

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Starman1
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Reged: 06/24/03

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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5840547 - 05/04/13 06:22 PM

Quote:

I don't think that the Delos is a good example. ES has NO eyepiece design competitive with Delos. It has a Panoptic clone line, but no 70-degree LER line. The Delos' competition is the Pentax XW, Nikon NAV-SW and to a lesser extent Vixen LVW, and compared to those eyepieces the Deloses are priced at a premium over all but the rare Nikons. The Delos is also just a 6 element design. Not as costly to manufacture as the much more complex Ethos.

Regards,

Jim



Hmm. I would have bet 8 elements. 1) how do you know? 2) are you sure all focal lengths are the same? The XWs aren't.


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
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Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Bakes]
      #5840853 - 05/04/13 10:26 PM

You can get new LVWs for $249 currently. You can get used ones for $150 in great shape. Used is a better deal.

I *adore* the LVWs, but...

No eyepiece is without its faults and the LVWs are no exception. The throughput is not up to the level of Pentaxes or Televues. On DSOs that's a negative. On bright targets such as the moon, planets and unequal magnitude doubles with bright primaries, the mild attenuation coupled with good baffling and excellent polish is an asset. They're also a few degrees of AFOV short of the competition.

I like them as well as or perhaps better than the XWs and the jury is out on the Delos. I have only one Delos, a 6mm, and am on the fence about it. So used, in particular, I'd say the LVWs are a worthy if antiquated choice.

- Jim


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russell23
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Reged: 05/31/09

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Starman1]
      #5840854 - 05/04/13 10:27 PM

Quote:


The only additional point I would make is that I have compared the ES68 line in the field with other eyepieces of similar focal length. Despite the comments from others, I find they have significant problems with stray light and do not produce the contrast in the image of the comparable TeleVues.
Especially when the Moon is up or a really bright star is just outside the field of view.
[I used to give binoculars the "streetlight test"--you put a streetlight just outside the field of view and see if 1) you can tell there is a streetlight outside the field of view and 2) what direction the streetlight lies. Nearly every binocular at every price failed the first test, and many, if not most, failed the second as well. With one particular Leica, when the streetlight was outside the field of view, it simply disappeared from reality. It was the only binocular I ever tested that passed that test with an "Excellent".]
So it is with the ES68s. They're not bad eyepieces in general, and better than most in the price range, but they only get a "poor" rating from me on the "bright star outside the field of view" test. In contrast, the equivalent Panoptics rated much higher. The brightness seen is more an overall field brightness than it is the revelation of fainter stars.




I had just tried this "bright star" test myself 2 nights ago and after reading this I tried it again last night with more scrutiny. I guess I would need to buy a 27mm Pan again to see because I had Vega in and out of the edge of the field multiple times including panning slowly toward it from 5 or 6 degrees away and I saw no difference between the 28mm ES68, 20mm ES68, and 20mm XW. When Vega was just a sliver outside the field stop there was a tiny faint semicircle of glow that reached slightly into the field. I perhaps saw just the slightest brightening of the outer 10% of the field on the side of Vega as I approached Vega - but only when Vega was just outside the field stop.

My skies are excellent dark rural skies so I don't think stray light issues are being hidden by light pollution.

Looks like I've got another clear night so I guess I'll check it out again tonight.

Dave


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russell23
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5840875 - 05/04/13 10:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:

TV could have a long time ago chosen to market an economy line of 82 deg eyepieces – perhaps even use a design developed by someone else instead of Nagler himself and just enforce strict QC on the manufacturer. If they had done so they might have prevented Celestron, Meade, and ES from gaining any significant foothold in the 82 deg market. And they could have done so at any point because people do trust the TV name.




A few thoughts:

- The reason people trust the TeleVue name is that they have not chosen to compromise quality in the interest of market share.

- Economy widefield eyepieces are actually a boon to TeleVue, they provide people with a taste of what is possible. At some point, they are likely to want something better.

- TeleVue is a small company and certainly doesn't seem to be interested in dominating the marketplace by offering products of lesser quality. Knowing what I know of Al Nagler, I imagine he is just so happy to see that his vision of amateur astronomy has become so pervasive, such a dominant vision among the community.

For example, it's easy to forget how important TeleVue was to the development of the modern large Dobsonian. Without the Paracorr, without the Naglers, F/4 Newtonians that provided clean, sharp views across the field of view would not have been possible. And now with the Paracorr II and the Ethos eyepieces, it makes the compact F/3 Dob possible, flat foot scopes that are 20 inches and larger...

When a company builds products that are on the front line, that change the face of the hobby, that enable new developments other parts of the hobby, it doesn't make a lot of sense to cut corners, you let other people do that... If Al Nagler had been interested in making a pile of money, he would not have chosen Amateur Astronomy for his focus. But as a life long amateur astronomer, he had a vision and his vision has transformed this wonderful hobby.



Jon Isaacs




Good points Jon. I certainly think there have long been reasons for TV not to offer an economy line of widefield eyepieces. As a company, with a focus on developing premium lines of eyepieces and pushing the limits of eyepiece design, you have to decide if you want to risk your reputation by offering a lower cost option. So I get that. You also would run the risk of competing with your own top shelf products if you do offer a lower cost option.

My point is just that they have made the choices they made - reputation of producing premium eyepieces, goal of developing new lines (Ethos) that push the envelope, limitation of resources as a smaller company. I get all that and don't argue that they should have done anything differently. But they could have done it differently and just as they have been pushing the market wider and wider and better and better - so too have the low cost options been improving. ES products are much better than previous generations of low cost options. Just last night I was putting my 20mm ES68 that I just purchased against my 20mm XW. Perhaps the 20mm XW is a little more vibrant in its rendition, but without question the 20mm ES68 is sharper at the edge.

I still think this is a change in the game - in that you now have a low cost option that in some optical performance respects is better than premium options. If you happen to be one of those people that values highly the optical performance characteristics the ES eyepieces excel at, then the premium eyepieces might not be the better option in more ways than just cost.

Dave


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la200o
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Reged: 09/09/08

Loc: SE Michigan, USA
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: russell23]
      #5840885 - 05/04/13 10:55 PM

What are the optical performance aspects that the low cost ep's are better at than the premium ep's?

Bill


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Scanning4Comets
Markus
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Reged: 12/26/04

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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: la200o]
      #5841041 - 05/05/13 01:26 AM

Quote:

TeleVue plossls are corrected to f4.

--------------------
Sean




Really? Please SHOW me in a real scope.

Quote:

I don't think any plossls are corrected for f4 scopes.
I could be wrong!
Clear Skies
Sam




They aren't, and TeleVue Plossls are not either. TV does make good EP's, but the 19mm and 22mm Pan's are a mess at the edges in a fast scope compared to other offerings.

The 22mm Vixen LVW has way better edge correction in a fast scope w/o a Paracorr than both the 19mm and 22m Pans. Heck, even the 17mm Vixen LVW has way better edge correction in a fast scope w/o a Paracorr than the 19mm Pan. Not ALL TeleVue eyepieces are corrected down to F/4 !

I tried a 35mm Panoptic for the third time last Thursday and I finally came to the conclusion that it had excellent correction, but horrible eye placement, kidney beans all over the place and had edge of field brightening in my fast 10" F/4.7 reflector. I then tried it in a friend's F/8.3 refractor and it was excellent......so the saying that TV EP's are corrected down to F/4 is A MYTH. IMO, the 34mm ES is eons better in a fast scope. I am looking forward to trying out the 28mm ES that is on the way and I bet 10 to 1 that it out-does the 27mm TV Panoptic in the same department I just mentioned except for correction.

Quote:

I own both ES and TeleVue eyepieces. I used to complain about how much TV eyepieces cost but, they keep selling. If they weren't, TV would have to lower the price but, they sell enough it seems.
The first purchase that changed my opinion was the paracorr. It has excellent fit and finish and it works EXACTLY as advertised. How many astro ads promise far more than they deliver? Too many. Anyway this item works very well. Then trying some Nagler and Ethos eyepieces at star parties and comparing them to my ES eyepieces made me appreciate the quality of TeleVue eyepieces as well. Then I bought a TeleVue refractor. Again excellent quality and performance which sold me on Al Nagler's vision of extreme widefield views with larger aperture than what was available before. Flat field 4"f5.4 &5"f5.2 are two of my favorite refractors made today. They compliment large reflectors perfectly and give wonderful uberwide views.
Star parties are great for pointing your future purchases in the right direction. I got to try some Naglers and compare them to my ES82s. I also got to use some ethos and took note of the differences. ES eyepieces are great values and are the best that I have used at their price point.
TeleVue eyepieces are an obvious improvement though and the extra polishing and attention to detail costs money. TeleVue also offers repair services if you drop one or scratch a lens or buy one with damage. Plus if you call with a question, you could easily be talking with an amateur astronomy legend. Service like that is another reason I like to deal with the great American companies like starlight, moonlite, and TeleVue. They have better customer service than almost any other business including outside of this hobby.
I almost forgot to say that TeleVue eyepieces are far better than ES during the day. Try that comparison yourself if you doubt.

--------------------
Sean




There are many TeleVue "fanboiz" here. I can name quite a few, but I won't name names to save a war from erupting.

TV makes great Ep's, I agree, but TV isn't all roses either.

Now all of the TV "fanboiz" will go ballistic on me for saying what I just said, BUT IT IS TRUE AND HARD TO SWALLOW.

Cheers,


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JayinUT
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5841067 - 05/05/13 02:18 AM

For me, the eyepiece that matters most to me are the ones I use and are in my focuser on a regular basis. For higher magnification these are the Pentax XW. My finder is the TV 27mm Panoptic. I own a few ES eyepieces and I do really enjoy their 30mm 82 degree. I am not overly happy with the 24mm 82 degree after trying it out on multiple outings and will probably be putting it up for sale soon. So for me, its really up to what one wants, what one prefers and what one can afford. In the end, I think looking up a lot even with what some is considered "low to mid grade level" eyepieces is better than not looking up. I had a lot of fun using a 21mm, 13mm and 5mm Stratus and Hyperion Eyepieces for a couple of years at one point. I saw a lot, learned a lot and as I eventually upgraded to other eyepieces, I found I had learned a lot because I was out as often as I could. I've learned more since then and will continue to learn and grow, but in the end, its looking up with what one can afford, what one is content with using and with what one wants that matters. Personally, I think there is room enough in the hobby for people and the eyepieces they choose and can afford as long as they are getting used.

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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: russell23]
      #5841191 - 05/05/13 06:49 AM

Quote:


My point is just that they have made the choices they made - reputation of producing premium eyepieces, goal of developing new lines (Ethos) that push the envelope, limitation of resources as a smaller company. I get all that and don't argue that they should have done anything differently. But they could have done it differently and just as they have been pushing the market wider and wider and better and better - so too have the low cost options been improving.




TeleVue has always offered a variety of choices and for a given field of view, be it 50 degrees, 68-70 degrees, 82 degrees or 100 degrees, they are arguably the best at what they do. I am not sure how they could have done it differently and maintained their quality approach.

Jon


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cjc
sage


Reged: 10/15/10

Loc: Derbyshire, England
Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5841218 - 05/05/13 07:27 AM

According to Tele Vue, all their eyepieces are tested at F/4.

The Panoptic series is a scaled design so off axis performance should be the same for all models.

See: Why Choose Tele Vue


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Shneor
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: cjc]
      #5841320 - 05/05/13 09:18 AM

Quote:

According to Tele Vue, all their eyepieces are tested at F/4.

The Panoptic series is a scaled design so off axis performance should be the same for all models.

See: Why Choose Tele Vue



"Tested"? What does that mean? The question is, what are the standards?
Clears,


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turtle86
Pooh-Bah Everywhere Else
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Reged: 10/09/06

Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces [Re: FirstSight]
      #5841373 - 05/05/13 09:59 AM

Quote:

My EP case full of Televue EPs isn't going anywhere, not in my lifetime. It was all money well-spent. The rest of you suit yourselves.




+1 Same here. They'll have to pry my set of Ethos from my cold dead fingers.


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