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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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linux
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Cost of Televue Eyepieces
      #5833499 - 05/01/13 12:06 AM

Not knowing about the pricing history of TV Ethos eyepieces, I wonder if anybody could say if their prices ever go down. I know they're great and I'd pretty much decided to pace myself and get all Ethoi over a period of time (partially a function of my wife...).

Anyway, I read so many good things about the 13mm that I just went and bought it from Astronomics. I love it and I love the wide field. So my plan was sort of: 13mm -> 21mm ->8mm -> 17mm -> 4.7mm. I don't know if I'll get to the end anytime soon, but when it came time to go for the 21, I was (sticker) shocked at the price. $900!

To make a long story short, I wound up getting an ES100 20mm for $277 (a second, but normally $300). I just could not justify a $600 difference. Seems to me that buyers have to "really" appreciate and want that EP very badly. Everything I've read says the ES is darn close. I was kinda bummed out because I want the Ethos, but...

Anyway, I don't have a problem with TV's business model and pricing decisions at all. It's their business and their products are top notch and the warranty is lifetime, but I think they will lose a lot of business on the 21 that they otherwise could pick up.

I read that the ES100 20mm started higher (like at $500 or something) and went down over time. Does that every happen to the TV products.


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johnnyha
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5833523 - 05/01/13 12:30 AM

Don't feel bad. I bought the 21mm Ethos and didn't like it, I was getting "brownouts". Sold it within a few months and took a $120 hit. There are many eyepieces I like better that cost a whole lot less.

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jack45
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5833566 - 05/01/13 01:50 AM

That's a big price difference!

Clear Skies!


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Astrojensen
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5833626 - 05/01/13 03:37 AM

Quote:

To make a long story short, I wound up getting an ES100 20mm for $277 (a second, but normally $300). I just could not justify a $600 difference. Seems to me that buyers have to "really" appreciate and want that EP very badly. Everything I've read says the ES is darn close. I was kinda bummed out because I want the Ethos, but...




Welcome in the club. You are not alone.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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ibase
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5833657 - 05/01/13 04:21 AM

Linux, the ES 100's are very good value EP's; have the 14mm, quite a performer. It's interesting also to see an x-ray of your Ethos 13mm and the 100ES14mm, click here.

Best,


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Teal'c
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: ibase]
      #5833695 - 05/01/13 05:59 AM

Televue prices have always been high but over the past couple of years prices have gone beyond what I'm willing to pay. When I bought the 21mm ethos, the reg price (if memory serves) was $720.00.....now, $895.00

As to the TV compared to the ES?...I had the 21,13,and 8mm ethos and the 20, 14 and 9mm ES. Optically, they were very close but the Ethos were easier to use due to slightly better eye relief. ES should get away from the deep well ring on these eyepieces as is would close the gap even more.

IMO.....there is not a justified $600.00 performance difference between the TV 21 and ES 20


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RGM
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Teal'c]
      #5833709 - 05/01/13 06:18 AM

I own several TV EPs, but have not bought another for many years. I completed my collection with ES and XW. Cost was the primary reason.

I participated in a blind test between an ES14 and Ethos 13 when the ES first came out. After about 30 minutes, and observing many objects, I picked the ES14. I was quite surprised, and somewhat embarrassed. Have not bought a TV since.


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johntrob
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Teal'c]
      #5833713 - 05/01/13 06:21 AM

Nice article, thanks Hernando.

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GOLGO13
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5833821 - 05/01/13 08:28 AM

If you don't mind the used market, they depreciate quite a bit. There is certainly a high demand for them. But there are other good eyepieces out there.

Sad to say I don't have any Televue eyepieces right now. I had the 26mm type 5 Nagler and it was very good. I had the 13mm Type 6 and didn't really like it (but I was less experienced back then).

Right now my only expensive eyepiece is the 10mm Pentax XW. I really like it and it really works well with all my telescopes. I understand the Delos is pretty close to the Pentax, but the pentax is a little cheaper new on Adorma camera.

I do think the Televue eyepieces are consistently good. So you do pay a little for quality. But if people keep buying them, they will keep prices high.

Funny thing for me though...I've been really enjoying value eyepieces like the Edmund RKEs and University Optics Orthos. They are not wide fields, but the views are very sharp. Combined with my Pentax XW and a few Meade 5000 SWA and UWA I'm pretty good to go.


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Illinois
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: johntrob]
      #5833830 - 05/01/13 08:33 AM

Tele Vue eyepieces always high price and I dont buy it. I have several TV Plossls because I can afford it in early 1980's. Now I have ES 82degrees 24mm, 14mm, 11mm, 8.8mm and 6.7mm eyepieces. I love it! I test 24mm and look at star way by edge of the view. Stars still pinpoint and I am happy. I always heard that TV is little better is because its in your head and pay 500 dollars more!

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Mark9473
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: johntrob]
      #5833836 - 05/01/13 08:40 AM

I'm still interested in the original question: do Televue prices ever go down? (I'd like to pick up a 22 Nagler one day)

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Eddgie
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5833839 - 05/01/13 08:42 AM

In general, I do not believe that Televue ever reduces the MSRP of their eyepeices. If they ever have, I have not seen it.

Usually there will be a sale price (not a reduced MSRP) preceeding the next price increase, but that is about as close as you can get.

I have not used the ES 100 degree or 80 degree AFOV eyepeices, but I have used the latest ES 68 degree eyepeices in 16mm and 20mm focal lenghts, and I have to say that side by side with similar focal lenght Panoptics (I have owned all but the 15mm Pans) I found the performance to be pretty similar.

I liked the 16mm and 20mm 68 degree ES eyepcieces so much that I have a pair on order for my Binoviwer.

Televue pricing I think is going to hurt them. ES is offerening hard to resist pricing and excellent warranty.

I have always been a big Televue fan. They make excellent excellent eyepeices.

That being said, I believe they price model will ultimatly erode their customer base with en-masse defections to what appear to be similarly good eyepeices for a fraction of the price.


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t.r.
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5833887 - 05/01/13 09:10 AM

Quote:

IMO.....there is not a justified $600.00 performance difference between the TV 21 and ES 20




I agree...had Ethos, sold for ES 100 Power set. Yes, from time to time, TV has a sale and drops the price about 10%. It is now expected by customers and I think many simply wait until these sales to do their purchasing in quantity. The sale usually proceeds a price hike. It is a tricky game that I think TV will ultimately loose.


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nevy
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5833939 - 05/01/13 09:38 AM

I think the prices will go up rather than down, I'm glad I got mine just as the last sale was ending , I paid Ł420 for the 21mm and I thought that was expensive , now the price is Ł750 ish , but once you have them and look after them they will last a lifetime and more.

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careysub
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Mark9473]
      #5833950 - 05/01/13 09:44 AM

The have offered 25% off sales in the past.

When I got back into doing astronomy after many years, two and a half years ago, TeleVue had a 25% off sale, and their base prices were 25% lower as well.

I bought 5 pieces of TeleVue optics at that time: a Paracorr 1, the 2X and 4X Powermates, a Nagler 20mm, and a 27mm Panoptic, at a price ineffct 40% off of current prices.

My reasoning was that with the two Powermates and the two medium-long focus EPs (which were among their lowest priced wide fields EPs, the Powermates are also cheaper than nearly all TV WF EPs) I could get "TeleViews" at 27mm, 20mm, 13.5mm, 10mm, 6.75mm, and 5mm covering most of the range of usable magnifications in most scopes I was ever likely to own, and also all being usable in any telescope I was ever likely to own (you have to get below F/3.9 with Paracorr before I would experience vignetting from my ~6mm pupil).

I could have gone cheaper with the 19mm Panoptic instead of the 20mm Nagler, but wanted to give the vaunted Nagler corrections a try.

The major limitation on my strategy is that it ties me to using 2" focusers - not that big a problem since only some small and inexpensive scopes don't have them and can't take them easily.

At this point I am unlikely to buy another TeleVue unless it is a Plossl (their cheapest EPs, mostly to give it a comparison with cheaper Plossls of identical FL), or a Radian at a good discount (used or if/when the have another 25% off sale). I would like to follow my strategy of getting one of each type at a discount, in which case the Delos would be next. I would like to try a 13mm Ethos, but even discounted the price is so high (even if I get 25% off the current street price, it is still $510) it would be sort of my "last EP ever".


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russell23
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Teal'c]
      #5833966 - 05/01/13 09:52 AM

Quote:

Televue prices have always been high but over the past couple of years prices have gone beyond what I'm willing to pay. When I bought the 21mm ethos, the reg price (if memory serves) was $720.00.....now, $895.00

As to the TV compared to the ES?...I had the 21,13,and 8mm ethos and the 20, 14 and 9mm ES. Optically, they were very close but the Ethos were easier to use due to slightly better eye relief. ES should get away from the deep well ring on these eyepieces as is would close the gap even more.

IMO.....there is not a justified $600.00 performance difference between the TV 21 and ES 20




I think ES has done such a good job with their eyepieces that it is not even necessarily a matter of 90% of the TV performance at 1/3 the price. In the case of the 28mm ES68 I think it is actually better in a number of performance characteristics than the 27mm Pan. That is something relatively new. It used to be that you knew you were getting an all around superior eyepiece for the premium price. With TV vs ES comparisons it turns out not to be the case anymore.

Dave


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hfjacinto
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: russell23]
      #5834000 - 05/01/13 10:16 AM

I own several TeleVue eyepieces and they are very good. I wanted to go to 100* eyepieces and was thinking Ethos, but after trying the Explore Scientific, I was really impressed and couldn't justify paying 2.5 more times for an Ethos, for the price of a 21MM Ethos, I got a 9,14 and 20MM ES.

As to the pricing, at times, Televue had specials (like I got the 17MM T4 and 31MMT5 on sale). A few NEAFs ago they had Blems so I got a 3.5MM Nagler T6 and a 6MM Radian for very good prices. The other T6's I own, I was able to buy new but with coupons (telescopes.com used to give 10% off coupons) so they were good priced also. Paying full price for a Televue is a lot to spend on an eyepiece.

Although I don't want to critique TV as they price the products accordingly, the current price point seems to be too high compared to the ES when the difference isn't that much, if at all.


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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: RGM]
      #5834007 - 05/01/13 10:22 AM

Quote:

I own several TV EPs, but have not bought another for many years. I completed my collection with ES and XW. Cost was the primary reason.

I participated in a blind test between an ES14 and Ethos 13 when the ES first came out. After about 30 minutes, and observing many objects, I picked the ES14. I was quite surprised, and somewhat embarrassed. Have not bought a TV since.




One of my observing buddies usually wants to use his ES eyepieces in my scope with a fine Royce mirror. One night we did a comparison with my 13 Ethos. After two minutes he pronounced the ES the winner.

OTOH, I found the ES underwhelming. 90% as good maybe. Which in absolute standards would have been great 10 years ago.

I can't say that cost/value does not play a key role here. His eyepiece strategy is to have lots of them, and despite a well-off retirement he doesn't like to spend a lot on equipment. For him ES is a great value.

My eyepiece strategy involves fewer eyepieces so I am willing to pay more for finer ones (or willing to go to the used market to stretch my money). Given the limited time I have for the hobby and the effort I put in (building scopes, driving to the dark site, being exhausted the next day) I'm not very forgiving on so/so performance. It has to be great or it wastes my precious time.


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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5834079 - 05/01/13 10:54 AM

Quote:

Televue pricing I think is going to hurt them. ES is offerening hard to resist pricing and excellent warranty.

I have always been a big Televue fan. They make excellent excellent eyepeices.

That being said, I believe they price model will ultimatly erode their customer base with en-masse defections to what appear to be similarly good eyepeices for a fraction of the price.




Yes, buying TeleVue has been about the safest bet there is in eyepieces.

But these are hard times, standards of living have been on the decline for years. This has opened a great window for low cost competitors. The erosion you speak of is well under way. At star parties ES eyepieces are nearly as common as Tele Vue.

In a few years TeleVue may become as niche player. Or they may not make it at all. As a privately held company we can only speculate at their revenues, expense structure, and staying power.

But one has to wonder if Tele Vue folds - for how many decades will eyepiece design stagnate? In 1940 the Erfle was the best there was. And in the late 1970's it still was the best.

A small innovator would be crazy to risk his livelihood in a market where a large foreign cloner can copy his optical design at substantially lower prices, and customers flock to it.


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BillP
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5834114 - 05/01/13 11:11 AM

Quote:

But one has to wonder if Tele Vue folds - for how many decades will eyepiece design stagnate? In 1940 the Erfle was the best there was. And in the late 1970's it still was the best.




Actually, IMO I think that except for levels of polish that eyepieces made from glass are about as perfect in their execution as possible and practical. Might be able to get a few more percent transmission with some exotic coating technologies, but other than that and a few more degrees of AFOV I feel the state of the current art is at its limit. So until electronics and/or exotic non-glass or metamaterials are used, I feel this is about as good as it can get. And I don't feel any of the current mainstream companies will be the first to break into the more exotic approaches that will be needed for a truly next generation eyepiece. Instead some new newbie will.

Edited by BillP (05/01/13 11:13 AM)


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ibase
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: johntrob]
      #5834188 - 05/01/13 11:48 AM

Quote:

Nice article, thanks Hernando.



You're welcome, 'twas fascinating to see the x-ray the 1st time, still is. So, reverse-engineered? Copied? Cloned? Obvious? Answer is as good as anyone else's maybe.

Best,


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Brian Schmidt
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: ibase]
      #5834381 - 05/01/13 01:18 PM

I know what you're talking about. I recently sold a 12 Nagler, and have a sale pending on my 8 Ethos, with the idea of replacing both with the 10 Ethos. I experienced sticker shock when I started shopping around for the 10 New, and saw that it was $650. The cost will bem mostly paid from the sale of the other two eyepieces, but this may be my last Ethos at this price. I seem to remember the mid focal length Ethos coasting around the $475 price point in the not so distant past.

Edited by Brian Schmidt (05/01/13 05:43 PM)


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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Brian Schmidt]
      #5834445 - 05/01/13 01:44 PM

Over the years I have had very good luck on the used market (and not just on Tele Vue). About half of my eyepieces were bought this way.

As to the OP: The costs of manufactured goods (excepting electronics) rarely go down over time (unless of course the design changes to cut manufacturing processes). And you'll miss a lot of great observing waiting for a sale.

It is what it is.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5834467 - 05/01/13 01:52 PM

Quote:


Anyway, I don't have a problem with TV's business model and pricing decisions at all. It's their business and their products are top notch and the warranty is lifetime, but I think they will lose a lot of business on the 21 that they otherwise could pick up.




I am not one who keeps up with the latest and greatest. I have several sets of eyepieces but my main set consists of 8 Naglers ranging from the 31mm to the 3.5mm, there's a couple of Barlows and a Paracorr in there too. I purchased them all used and all told, I have more than $2000 in that case. But I built it up over a period of probably 7 or 8 years, an eyepiece at a time, slowly replacing other eyepieces, learning what I liked, what I didn't like.

I think the market for TeleVue is for those who have a significant investment in their equipment so that the eyepieces represent a smaller fraction of the total investment.

For example, if one has a few thousand dollars invested in an NP-101 in order to have that wide, flat field of view, then investing in the 31mm Nagler rather than the ES-30 makes sense. Or say you are Mel Bartel's and you have built an 13 inch F/3 Newtontian designed to provide the richest possible field of view, the 21mm Ethos would seem to be worth the investment, the scope was designed around that particular eyepiece.

If one is looking for the best value, maybe TeleVue is not the best choice unless purchased used.

Jon

Edited by Jon Isaacs (05/01/13 02:54 PM)


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Binojunky
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5834519 - 05/01/13 02:19 PM

I picked up a nice new 14mm Radian last year from a star party vendor at 60% of the regular price, all my other TV eyepieces are bought used with the exception of a couple of plossls, as for the scopes , lovely but too rich for me,its not that I can,t afford them, its just I not prepared to pay the price,too each his own,DA.

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Astrojensen
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Illinois]
      #5834550 - 05/01/13 02:36 PM

Quote:

I always heard that TV is little better is because its in your head and pay 500 dollars more!




I don't think TeleVue eyepieces are $500 more expensive, just because it's a brand name and the difference is "in your head". They really are amazingly good eyepieces, just like Rolls-Royce, Mercedes and Bugatti are amazingly good cars. I just can't afford them, just as I can't afford a Mercedes. But I can afford a used VW Passat and I can afford ES and both take me there in style and comfort, with good performance at a reasonable price.

The last few percent of performance - and the means taken to ensure that you get that performance in every sample - that is what drive prices up.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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hfjacinto
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5834574 - 05/01/13 02:47 PM

Quote:


I don't think TeleVue eyepieces are $500 more expensive





Price of a 20MM 100 * ES: $299
Price of a 21MM Ethos: $895
Difference: $596

Price of a 30MM 82* ES: $250
Price of a 31MM Nagler T5: $695
Difference: $445


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coutleef
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: BillP]
      #5834614 - 05/01/13 03:09 PM

i must admit that i bougth recently a 68 Es 24 mm to use essentially in my sct (to better frame star clusters). i would not have bougth a pan 24 for such a limited use at the price it sells even used.

The ES was not 90 percent of the performance of the panoptic: in some aspects it was evenbetter and i would consider it a draw between these EPs.

At some point the cost of some of the TV EPs will have to come down unless the price of ES goes up ( which may well happen now)


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dyslexic nam
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #5834615 - 05/01/13 03:09 PM

I think what he was saying is that they aren't that much more expensive JUST BECAUSE it is a brand name.

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Astrojensen
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #5834623 - 05/01/13 03:12 PM

I see what I said might have been misunderstood a little and/or taken somewhat out of context. I did not doubt that the TV eyepieces were more than $500 more expensive than ES, but what I said was that they were not that much more expensive just because they were a brand name, but because TeleVue really did put a lot of effort into them.

Just to clarify.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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FirstSight
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5834625 - 05/01/13 03:13 PM

Quote:

Over the years I have had very good luck on the used market (and not just on Tele Vue). About half of my eyepieces were bought this way.





Another potentially IMPORTANT distinction between Televue and Explore Scientific for purchasers of used eyepieces is that ES's 5-year warranty after intial purchase of a new EP *DOES* automatically transfer to a second (used) owner, whereas Televue's 5-year warranty *only* applies to the original purchaser (i.e. if you're a purchaser of a used Televue EP, you get *no* warranty). True, the quality control for eyepieces at Televue is stringent enough that warranty coverage for defects is mostly a moot point...but not entirely, as in the following example. I purchased a 26T5 Nagler used from someone who owned it less than a year, and had owned it myself for about two and a half years, when I noticed some spots on the eyelens coating that were stubbornly resistant to all my attempts to clean them off. There were no nicks or scratches on the eyelens whatsoever, nor did the spots at all resemble any sort of fungal damage...instead, it was simply some sort of unexplained deterioration of the coatings. FORTUNATELY the problem causes no visible degradation whatever of the actual view through the EP, but OTOH I could never resell the EP except with full disclosure of the issue, at a heavy discount to the price. Fortunately also, I have neither need nor plans to ever sell it, so it's purely an issue (perhaps) for my estate someday.

Nevertheless, in the very occasional instance where a purchaser of a used TV vs ES eyepiece does run into a defect, the difference in warranty coverage could be VERY significant. It would probably cost me roughly in the ballpark of $200 to restore my 26T5 to original condition, should I feel inclined at some point to do so.


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audioaficionado
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Binojunky]
      #5834643 - 05/01/13 03:20 PM

For the modest scope I have, it would be foolish to spend the bux for a TV set. However if I had a premium large dob, It might be the best way to get the most out of the total system investment.

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MikeRatcliff
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: audioaficionado]
      #5834659 - 05/01/13 03:28 PM

The world currency situation also affects the TV/ES price differences. TV being made in Taiwan/Japan vs ES in mainland China. Recent trends may favor a narrowing of the price gap. We'll see.

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John Rhodes
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5834682 - 05/01/13 03:43 PM

Quote:


Another potentially IMPORTANT distinction between Televue and Explore Scientific for purchasers of used eyepieces is that ES's 5-year warranty after intial purchase of a new EP *DOES* automatically transfer to a second (used) owner, whereas Televue's 5-year warranty *only* applies to the original purchaser




As of 1-1-12 Tele Vue eyepieces, Paracorr, and Powermates come
with a LIFETIME - WARRANTY but it is not transferable.


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linux
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: ibase]
      #5834687 - 05/01/13 03:49 PM

Quote:

Linux, the ES 100's are very good value EP's; have the 14mm, quite a performer. It's interesting also to see an x-ray of your Ethos 13mm and the 100ES14mm, click here.

Best,




Yes, it looks like a knock-off design for sure. If TV were Apple, the patent lawsuits would be flying.


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Paul G
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5834712 - 05/01/13 04:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Linux, the ES 100's are very good value EP's; have the 14mm, quite a performer. It's interesting also to see an x-ray of your Ethos 13mm and the 100ES14mm, click here.

Best,




Yes, it looks like a knock-off design for sure. If TV were Apple, the patent lawsuits would be flying.




That's one reason I stick with Televue. I prefer to reward the innovators with my business so they can stick around and innovate some more.


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linux
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5834715 - 05/01/13 04:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I own several TV EPs, but have not bought another for many years. I completed my collection with ES and XW. Cost was the primary reason.

I participated in a blind test between an ES14 and Ethos 13 when the ES first came out. After about 30 minutes, and observing many objects, I picked the ES14. I was quite surprised, and somewhat embarrassed. Have not bought a TV since.




One of my observing buddies usually wants to use his ES eyepieces in my scope with a fine Royce mirror. One night we did a comparison with my 13 Ethos. After two minutes he pronounced the ES the winner.

OTOH, I found the ES underwhelming. 90% as good maybe. Which in absolute standards would have been great 10 years ago.

I can't say that cost/value does not play a key role here. His eyepiece strategy is to have lots of them, and despite a well-off retirement he doesn't like to spend a lot on equipment. For him ES is a great value.

My eyepiece strategy involves fewer eyepieces so I am willing to pay more for finer ones (or willing to go to the used market to stretch my money). Given the limited time I have for the hobby and the effort I put in (building scopes, driving to the dark site, being exhausted the next day) I'm not very forgiving on so/so performance. It has to be great or it wastes my precious time.




Point well taken and I feel the same way even though I'm fairly new to the hobby. At this point with my XT8, bought used, I have roughly 5x the cost in eyepieces already, however I've convinced myself that this is an endeavor that I'll stick with. I'm retired and have the time and money to pursue it; my next scope will likely be an Orion XX16G so I'll have a nice piece of equipment that will better justify the EP expense. I've always felt that the best quality you could afford is a good investment if you keep it...

That being said, I simply could not bring myself to fork over $895 when I could get 95% of the viewing experience for $299 ($277 actually, a 2nd). There's a point when you're wasting your money and for the delta I could buy another $650 Ethos or several ES eyepieces. I'll probably stay with my plan to round out my stable with more Ethos, even at $650.

Down the road, maybe I'll relent on the 21 and sell the ES if I get to where I can really tell the difference, but I doubt it. I think TV is losing market share with that pricing but maybe they don't care. I can see an initial higher price to pay for the engineering and tooling (look at the ES100 30mm - $1200), but it needs to be somewhat competitive. At $895 it is not and a lot of responders here have verified that.


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BillP
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5834720 - 05/01/13 04:11 PM

Quote:

Yes, it looks like a knock-off design for sure. If TV were Apple, the patent lawsuits would be flying.




Not quite...there are probably about a dozen clones of iPhones for sale in China. Apple has no way to bring a lawsuit there unless their patent is an international patent, or a patent applicable in China (is my understanding).


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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5834723 - 05/01/13 04:13 PM

Quote:

Yes, it looks like a knock-off design for sure. If TV were Apple, the patent lawsuits would be flying.







Apple's last quarterly balance sheet shows a cash horde (current assets) in excess of $63 billion.

I doubt our home-grown eyepiece company has the kind of wherewithal to pursue a patent infringement case to it's logical conclusion.


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BillP
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5834842 - 05/01/13 05:22 PM

Jeff,

HAPPY BIRTHDAY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



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Brian Schmidt
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: John Rhodes]
      #5834913 - 05/01/13 05:59 PM

Didn't realize that TeleVue offered this warranty. Certainly changes makes buying new a more attractive option for current production eyepieces for us younger folks knowing that they will stand behind their product if there ever is an issue.

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GeneT
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5834987 - 05/01/13 06:38 PM

As noted, TeleVue does have sales once or twice a year. Question: what country owns Explorer Scientific? Their prices are consistently lower than TeleVue's. I believe I know the answer as to why.

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csrlice12
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5835047 - 05/01/13 07:13 PM

Maybe Scotty is developing the formula for transparent aluminum as we speak.....

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John Huntley
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Paul G]
      #5835095 - 05/01/13 07:43 PM

Quote:

.....That's one reason I stick with Televue. I prefer to reward the innovators with my business so they can stick around and innovate some more.....




Thats how I see it as well.

Even so, when it came to the 20mm hyper-wide niche I did go for an ES 20 / 100 to sit alongside my 13, 8 and 6mm Ethos.

So far, I'm very impressed with the ES and I have around $500 to spend on other astro gear from the saving made over the Ethos 21mm.

The only drawback I've encountered with the ES is that I need the eye cup folded down to see the full FoV. Not really much of a hardship.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5835110 - 05/01/13 07:54 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Yes, it looks like a knock-off design for sure. If TV were Apple, the patent lawsuits would be flying.







Apple's last quarterly balance sheet shows a cash horde (current assets) in excess of $63 billion.

I doubt our home-grown eyepiece company has the kind of wherewithal to pursue a patent infringement case to it's logical conclusion.




I think TV learned a lesson when Meade cloned the original Naglers. The patent made it easy to copy and then Meade only had to make a small change to beat the patent.

I have to think there would be no ES 100 degree eyepieces had there not been Ethos eyepieces first. It does make me reluctant to purchase ES eyepieces.

Jon


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faackanders2
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5835164 - 05/01/13 08:29 PM

TV has rare sales. ES has long running sales. ES20 may have come down in price since they have the ES25 now, and they may have paid for their tooling with all the sales, and they are producing at economy of sales.


Can't say prices will always be this low, since market is recovering. Sales don't have to last forever, and ending a sale is not a price increase (but rather just the end of a sale although your wallet sees the same effect).


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Shneor
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5835232 - 05/01/13 09:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Yes, it looks like a knock-off design for sure. If TV were Apple, the patent lawsuits would be flying.



Nevertheless, TV has not been the first to come out with a 120* eyepiece - ES has. It's an excellent performer. Let's see if TV copies the ES design...
Clears,




Apple's last quarterly balance sheet shows a cash horde (current assets) in excess of $63 billion.

I doubt our home-grown eyepiece company has the kind of wherewithal to pursue a patent infringement case to it's logical conclusion.




I think TV learned a lesson when Meade cloned the original Naglers. The patent made it easy to copy and then Meade only had to make a small change to beat the patent.

I have to think there would be no ES 100 degree eyepieces had there not been Ethos eyepieces first. It does make me reluctant to purchase ES eyepieces.

Jon




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GeneT
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5835278 - 05/01/13 09:36 PM

Quote:

I have to think there would be no ES 100 degree eyepieces had there not been Ethos eyepieces first. It does make me reluctant to purchase ES eyepieces.




I agree. I have numerous questions about the origin of ES eyepieces, and wonder if there is a motivation, other than profit, as to the reasons they are priced so low.


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Stephen S
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5835388 - 05/01/13 11:00 PM

Quote:

They really are amazingly good eyepieces, just like Rolls-Royce, Mercedes and Bugatti are amazingly good cars...

The last few percent of performance - and the means taken to ensure that you get that performance in every sample - that is what drive prices up.




I think this sums up things nicely. The same is true for the APO refractor market. You can get very good refractors for amazingly good prices. Incremental changes in quality are costly. I think companies like TeleVue will always have a place in the market, as will more bargain related brands.

I, for one, am thrilled to have the options.

Steve S.


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Teal'c
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Stephen S]
      #5835734 - 05/02/13 07:40 AM

I would love to be more supportive of televue but the simple fact is,...many can't afford them....and some others choose not to because the performance to price no longer makes sense? At this point in design and manufacturing, the placebo effect is starting to come into play for purchase decisions...the performance is so close between TV and others that many people can't tell the difference. Buy what ever you're happy with but to me, there is not a good reason to spend 3x the amount on a product that offers no advantage for me other than slightly better ER.

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Illinois
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #5835769 - 05/02/13 08:11 AM

Quote:

Quote:


I don't think TeleVue eyepieces are $500 more expensive





Price of a 20MM 100 * ES: $299
Price of a 21MM Ethos: $895
Difference: $596

Price of a 30MM 82* ES: $250
Price of a 31MM Nagler T5: $695
Difference: $445




596+445=1041

1041/2= 520.50


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Sarkikos
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Illinois]
      #5835791 - 05/02/13 08:31 AM

There are no Ethos in my eyepiece cases. Guess why. But there are a couple 100 degree ES.

Mike


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FirstSight
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5835852 - 05/02/13 09:22 AM

My EP case full of Televue EPs isn't going anywhere, not in my lifetime. It was all money well-spent. The rest of you suit yourselves.

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MRNUTTY
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5835917 - 05/02/13 10:00 AM

Chris, LOL! me too :-)

i bought and sold all the ES's. they're nice stuff, but for my time spent; the best.

Edited by MRNUTTY (05/02/13 10:06 AM)


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BillP
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: GeneT]
      #5835942 - 05/02/13 10:12 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I have to think there would be no ES 100 degree eyepieces had there not been Ethos eyepieces first. It does make me reluctant to purchase ES eyepieces.




I agree. I have numerous questions about the origin of ES eyepieces, and wonder if there is a motivation, other than profit, as to the reasons they are priced so low.




Probably in LARGE part due to different supply chains. btw, everyone is in the business for PROFIT...so in that respect all are of the same nature and no vendor is more altruistic than another that's for sure!


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coutleef
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5835947 - 05/02/13 10:16 AM

Quote:

My EP case full of Televue EPs isn't going anywhere, not in my lifetime. It was all money well-spent. The rest of you suit yourselves.




same here, except that they are not TV but pentaxes.

if i had not purchased those i would have considered a couple of Delos EPs in the lower FL.


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Sarkikos
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5835951 - 05/02/13 10:18 AM

Quote:

My EP case full of Televue EPs isn't going anywhere, not in my lifetime. It was all money well-spent. The rest of you suit yourselves.




Now, I didn't say that I don't have any TeleVue eyepieces. I just don't have any Ethos. However, I did buy nearly all of my TV EPs used, not new.

Mike


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MRNUTTY
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5835978 - 05/02/13 10:31 AM

I bought a lot used as well. Mostly the 1.25's, but the big 2" pieces I bought new at last years end of year sale.

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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5836029 - 05/02/13 11:02 AM

Quote:

My EP case full of Televue EPs isn't going anywhere, not in my lifetime. It was all money well-spent. The rest of you suit yourselves.






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Thomas Karpf
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #5836076 - 05/02/13 11:23 AM

Quote:

Quote:


I don't think TeleVue eyepieces are $500 more expensive





Price of a 20MM 100 * ES: $299
Price of a 21MM Ethos: $895
Difference: $596

Price of a 30MM 82* ES: $250
Price of a 31MM Nagler T5: $695
Difference: $445




Price of a 24MM 68* ES: $119
Price of a 24MM Panoptic: $330
Difference: $211


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csrlice12
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Thomas Karpf]
      #5836123 - 05/02/13 11:53 AM

Availability of the 24mm Pan: Walk in with the money, walk out with the eyepiece.

Availability of the ES68* 24mm: May 30 will be my one-year ordering anniversary...

THAT's a BIG difference too.....


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Eddgie
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5836132 - 05/02/13 11:57 AM

Quote:

Yes, it looks like a knock-off design for sure. If TV were Apple, the patent lawsuits would be flying.





US Patent protection I think only lasts for 20 years.

The Ethos is most likely simply an extension of the original Nagler design which basically uses a Smyth lens as part of the design.

In order to get a new patent, the design usually has to incorporate some new, never before seen design element.


Likewise, the Panoptic design has been around a long time, and is most likely off patent.

Also, someone wishing to compete only has to make a slight "Improvement" somewhere in the design and can get a new patents based on the "Improved" version.

And no one should think it is "Ripping off" Televue.

Patent law allows the inventor to have an exclusive use of the design for a period of time so that their inventiveness is rewarded.

It is the expiration of that patent though that allows for competition , and when this happens, prices almost always fall as a result.

Edited by Eddgie (05/02/13 12:04 PM)


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hfjacinto
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Thomas Karpf]
      #5836140 - 05/02/13 12:00 PM

Quote:


Price of a 24MM 68* ES: $119
Price of a 24MM Panoptic: $330
Difference: $211




So if the 24MM 68* ES was available I could get 3 eyepieces for the price of one Panoptic?


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linux
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5836142 - 05/02/13 12:02 PM

For some reason I assumed that TV was made in the US, but is actually manufactured in Japan and Taiwan. ES is a Chinese owned company based in Arkansas but manufactured in China. Perhaps the cost of living and business taxes in NY affect the prices somewhat compared to Arkansas, but probably not by a factor of 2 or 3.

Edited by linux (05/02/13 12:04 PM)


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MikeBOKC
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5836155 - 05/02/13 12:07 PM

How do you measure the cost of an eyepiece? For most of us a quality eyepiece is something that will last and be used for many years, in some cases decades. How many hours will it ride in a diagonal over those decades? Thousands probably for an avid and active astronomer. When you look at it that way (and I do) any substantial up front investment in any astronomy equipment is just that, an investment, not a cost or expense. I have about $5,000 in my eyepiece case, and I consider it money very well invested in what I hope will be many years of enjoyable eobserving for me and those who eventually inherit or purchase those eyepieces.

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spongebob@55
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Thomas Karpf]
      #5836156 - 05/02/13 12:07 PM

Saw a $620 price on a 13mm Ethos at NEAF at the OPT booth. Almost pulled the trigger, but just couldn't get over the thought of what else I could buy for that....
I too would like to know when TVs are 'on sale'.
Bob


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Sarkikos
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: spongebob@55]
      #5836175 - 05/02/13 12:21 PM

Yep, 'on sale' is right.

Mike


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russell23
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5836245 - 05/02/13 01:00 PM

I have no problem with TV prices and I agree that they have been a leading innovator in eyepiece design. And if you have the funds, you're loading up with outstanding eyepieces if you go with TV eyepieces and can support them for being an innovator in the eyepiece market.

But as I’ve said before, TV has chosen to focus on the premium wide-field market – not the “economy” wide-field market. Meade, Celestron, and now Explore Scientific have provided the low cost “economy” options for people that cannot afford the TV Naglers and Panoptics. The great thing for TV over the years is that they have provided the lines many people have aspired to someday own because their lines were generally considered superior in all respects to the “economy” lines with similar specifications.

But the game has changed. Explore Scientific now offers eyepiece lines that perform at such a high level that many people no longer feel that they need to “aspire” to reach up for the cost of TV lines. People feel confident that the ES eyepieces are performing at a level close enough to the TV that they are satisfied. People in some cases even like the ES lines more.

I don’t know to what extent TV’s bottom line is being “hurt” by the success of ES, but when you ignore a large segment of the market (economy priced wide-fields), you run the risk that a company that successfully markets to that segment will eventually reach up and tap into your premium segment as well.

I’m not blaming TV for anything here, but I also don’t subscribe to any notion that we should feel sorry for TV because ES is supposedly “stealing” sales from them. By creating the Ethos line, TV actually created the demand that allowed ES to generate such success because a 100 deg AFOV line with such “majesty factor” priced at $600+ each leaves a huge price gap that a competitor can fill – especially one with the business advantages ES is succeeding with. So I don’t feel any need to have my wallet take an unnecessary hit just so that I can support a company that doesn’t have an interest in marketing eyepieces in my primary price range.

Dave


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MRNUTTY
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: russell23]
      #5836261 - 05/02/13 01:08 PM

Well as has been mentioned before low prices, and 'good enough' product built in China has been the bane of many companies. Not all though, if there are sufficient customers for high-end at least a single manufacture of high-end gear can survive, and I hope TV will.

FWIW I thought the ES/68 line was their best.

Edited by MRNUTTY (05/02/13 01:20 PM)


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csrlice12
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #5836331 - 05/02/13 01:35 PM

"So if the 24MM 68* ES was available..."

Therein lies the problem......


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Thomas Karpf
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5836387 - 05/02/13 02:00 PM

Quote:

"So if the 24MM 68* ES was available..."

Therein lies the problem......




They're great quality and a great price for the quality. Not surprising that there's a line...

One of Carl Zambuto's criteria for finding a good deal is 'look for a line of people willing to wait'.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: BillP]
      #5836412 - 05/02/13 02:13 PM

Quote:

Probably in LARGE part due to different supply chains. btw, everyone is in the business for PROFIT...so in that respect all are of the same nature and no vendor is more altruistic than another that's for sure!




I think its worth making a distinction between manufacturers who are amateur astronomers and got into the business because of their interest in amateur astronomy and those that are just in business as a way to make money.

I think both Uncle Al and Roland Christen could have used their talents elsewhere and made buckloads of money but I think for both of them, what they do is a labor of love.

I also think that without their creativity, willingness to stretch the limits, our choices as amateur astronomers would be much more limited.


Jon


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hfjacinto
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: MRNUTTY]
      #5836452 - 05/02/13 02:25 PM

Quote:

Well as has been mentioned before low prices, and 'good enough' product built in China has been the bane of many companies. Not all though, if there are sufficient customers for high-end at least a single manufacture of high-end gear can survive, and I hope TV will.

FWIW I thought the ES/68 line was their best.




Not to pick on this particular post, but there have been several critiquing the Mass Produced Good Enough eyepiece but when I look at the equipment list I see lots of Mass Produced Good Enough telescopes. Shouldn't the critique apply to telescopes also?

Televue makes an excellent product I don't think anyone is saying they don't, the critique is of the current high price and really pricing is up to Televue. What is happening is that at one time the difference was enough to justify the price, but for some of us that difference is either not evident or the price of that difference is higher than some of us will pay.

I for one own more televue eyepieces than any other brand, but after comparing the Ethos and ES 100° I went ES and have no issues with my decision. Considering I've switched eyepieces several times I didn't see the "cost" of an Ethos merited the value. Many of you feel differently, many feel the same.


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Sagitta
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #5836484 - 05/02/13 02:36 PM

As I see it, the Western World is getting poorer while Asian countries (especially China) are getting richer. So Televue have changed their bussiness model: As Americans & Europeans buy affordable "Made in China" EPs, Televue sell their "Made in USA" EPs to the new Asian middle class.

Welcome to the 21st century!


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MRNUTTY
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #5836515 - 05/02/13 02:50 PM

Quote:

Not to pick on this particular post, but there have been several critiquing the Mass Produced Good Enough eyepiece but when I look at the equipment list I see lots of Mass Produced Good Enough telescopes. Shouldn't the critique apply to telescopes also?




Yes, of course. It applies to any product where "cheaper and good enough" drives customers away from higher priced goods of similar or better quality, feature, etc...


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Starman1
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: MRNUTTY]
      #5836522 - 05/02/13 02:53 PM

Well, as a dealer for both lines, I feel I can comment here:

1) The pricing of goods made in mainland China, labor-wise, is a tiny fraction of the significantly higher wages paid in Taiwan, and a much tinier percentage of the labor paid in Japan. You really can't compare products made in China by price alone.

2) If labor were the only difference, it might be foolish to buy Taiwanese or Japanese goods, but labor is not the only difference.

3) There are ways in which the TeleVue products are superior: coatings and light transmission, superior polish, suppression of scattered light (a biggie, in my book), edge-of-field astigmatism correction, edge of field vignetting control, edge of field distortion correction, mechanical construction, lower incidence of dirt in between lenses, tighter tolerances for barrel diameters, individual QC testing, continual improvement of the product without price increases, more expensive glass types used, etc.

4) The pricing of ES eyepieces is below that of the same manufacturer's eyepieces when they were sold by others. There are reasons for that and not every one is related to JOC owning the supply chain. The retail pricing should be a lot higher but isn't because of predatorily low pricing (when ES dropped the 20mm 100 degree from $599 to $299, did the cost go down by 50%? No.). It has driven many other companies out of the eyepiece market (in 2009, there were almost 1600 eyepieces available to the US consumer; now fewer than 1000). The eyepieces would have sold just as well at somewhat higher prices. Some Chinese manufacturers' equivalent products do. In fact, the low prices have resulted in a world-wide shortage, proving that prices could have been higher, given the supply/demand curve realities. If the supply now goes back up, and prices rise just a little, the mfr. will be in a much stronger market position.

5) Whether a price is high or not is in the eye of the beholder. To people on fixed incomes, or who have little discretionary income, TeleVue prices seem high and TeleVue gets picked on incessantly because of that. Yet, Zeiss, Takahashi, Nikon, Docter, Leica, and several other brands are higher (in some cases a LOT higher) yet they don't get picked on for their prices. Are they somehow worth their high prices when TeleVue is not? Or is a lot of the conversation about TeleVue prices because they are actually desired but just difficult to afford? If you compare TeleVue's prices with others, how about comparing them to other companies instead of arbitrarily taking the Chinese company with the lowest prices on similar models? How well does Audi compete with Hyundai on prices? It's probably better to compare Audi with Acura. At least they're comparable. Looked at in that way, TeleVue is the cheapest brand among the high-end companies, and the closest to affordable by everyone.

6) The supposedly high prices for TeleVue really aren't that high. It's that expectations have changed. If you take the average weekly income for a typical American worker, a TeleVue 82 degree Nagler costs less than a week's income. An Erfle eyepiece in 1965 would have been pretty close to the same percentage of a week's income. Yet, the Nagler is better in every single parameter of eyepiece design and manufacture. In a sense, the Nagler is cheaper, if you think in 1965 dollars and only count inflation. With inflation only, a $50 eyepiece in 1965 would be $359 today. Yet, $359 today gets a vastly superior eyepiece to $50 in 1965. We paid $50 for a lot of eyepieces then. Why doesn't everyone look at paying $359 the same way?

7) And along the way, the cost of aluminum, brass, glass, rare earths, coatings, freight, and energy, and labor costs have all gone up, yet most of those cost increases don't show up in the retail prices.

8) So is it possible for a person who has a modest income to be able to afford to buy a TeleVue eyepiece? Sure, but it's all about priorities. When I was young and couldn't afford a car or even a telephone, I had a top-of-the-line bicycle. And that bicycle cost me a month's income. I was racing, and that was my priority. I have friends who fish and golf and race cars, and they all spend vastly larger sums on their hobbies than I spend on astronomy. My friend who races cars spends the equivalent of an Ethos eyepiece every week on racing. Obviously, his income isn't as limited as some people looking at purchasing a TeleVue eyepiece for whom that expenditure would be hard. But it's his priority. I owned over a hundred eyepieces at a time when my income was 1/5 the level it is now. Now I have 8 for 3 scopes and though they are more expensive per unit, I have a lot less money tied up in eyepieces than I did then. Priorities.

9) I can totally understand why purchasing a top-of-the-line eyepiece might not be a priority in your life. But if you felt like you could afford it, would you? And are there other things in your life you spend more money on than astronomy? Then you are merely prioritizing your purchases. Most people I know who work for a living and have a take home pay could afford to buy TeleVue eyepieces. You might buy fewer of them than the inexpensive brands, and your purchases might take more time. But, telescopes come and go, while eyepieces stick around a lot longer (witness the number of CNers who have piles of them).

10) Last, TeleVue does have some lower-priced eyepieces. They are super high quality 50 degree field eyepieces, just not 82 degree.

There is no question that the inexpensive eyepieces have improved in quality over the last couple decades. And that's a good thing for astronomy. Telescopes have gone down and have improved a lot. We have China to thank for that. But if you look at where the top-of-the-line astronomy stuff comes from, it's Japan, USA, Europe, where labor costs are high, and design quality and standards are still higher. Taiwan is transitioning (or has transitioned) into that market. It's no accident the high-end stuff comes from those places.

Just a little different point of view from some posters.


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russell23
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: MRNUTTY]
      #5836531 - 05/02/13 02:57 PM

Quote:

Well as has been mentioned before low prices, and 'good enough' product built in China has been the bane of many companies. Not all though, if there are sufficient customers for high-end at least a single manufacture of high-end gear can survive, and I hope TV will.




I don't have any idea how TV's profits are being impacted. I do know that it is not just a matter of "good enough" where ES eyepieces are concerned. I feel that the 28mm ES68 is superior to the 27mm Panoptic in several optical performance characteristics. I also just received a 20mm ES68 yesterday and I think it is as good as the 28mm ES68. In side by side with a 20mm XW my preliminary take away is that the 20mm ES68 is as good or better in most respects than the 20mm XW for deep sky observations.

The problem this might potentially create for TV is that with the price disparity TV is no longer going to be viewed as a "premium option" but rather as a "luxury item".

Quote:

FWIW I thought the ES/68 line was their best.




I've been extremely impressed with both ES68 eyepieces I've tried. I haven't used the 14mm ES100 enough yet to conclude how I feel about it and I sold the 6.7mm ES82 at one point when I wanted to purchase something else but I found that eyepiece to be outstanding for deep sky and lunar observations.

Dave


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desertlens
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Starman1]
      #5836565 - 05/02/13 03:14 PM

Quote:

There is no question that the inexpensive eyepieces have improved in quality over the last couple decades.




... and the vast majority are well beyond "good enough"... and thanks to TeleVue for raising the bar.


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FirstSight
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #5836620 - 05/02/13 03:50 PM

Quote:

...there have been several critiquing the Mass Produced Good Enough eyepiece but when I look at the equipment list I see lots of Mass Produced Good Enough telescopes. Shouldn't the critique apply to telescopes also?





The principle is the same, but the monetary scale involved is not between higher-end eyepiece purchases and higher-end telescope purchases. Apiece, premium eyepieces are mostly in the $300-$800 range, but for rough order-of-magnitude comparative purposes, $500 is accurate enough for class comparison. Apiece, premium telescopes are in the $3000-$20,000 range. So, the required investment in a premium telescope is between 6x and 40x times the required investment in a premium eyepiece, even though a collection of several premium eyepieces will typically be cumulatively worth $2000-$5000, or anywhere from rough parity with value of a premium scope to a fourth its value.

HOWEVER, there's a key difference between acquiring a collection of premium eyepieces and acquiring a premium telescope: you can progressively acquire the premium eyepiece collection one eyepiece at a time over a stretched-out period of many months or years, averaging $500 investment needed each time. However, acquiring a premium telescope must be done (and fully paid for) in a single transaction, which you have to either have pre-accumulated sufficient discretionary funds for, or else be willing and able to incur considerable indebtedness to finance it via e.g. refinancing your house or some other form of consumer loan.

Most of us find it MUCH easier to accumulate on the order of $500 discretionary cash for a premium eyepiece before some other priority comes along to divert the money to other use than it is to accumulate $5000 to $20,000 discretionary cash before some other personal or family priority comes along and diverts all or a huge chunk of it. OTOH, at least with reflectors, you can sort-of-kind-of incrementally acquire a scope that's optically premium-quality, even though mechanically it's not, by purchasing e.g. an Orion XT12i or XX14i and then having the primary refigured and then the stock secondary replaced by a premium one, and perhaps (if it didn't come with ebony star laminate az bearings) add that too.

True, a similar dynamic on a much lower financial scale is operating when people settle for almost-as-good ES eyepieces rather than pay a substantial premium for Televue eyepieces, but we're talking $100-$400 incremental differences here on each eyepiece, not a 4k to 19k jump over a 1k commercial dob to start with.

Edited by FirstSight (05/02/13 05:07 PM)


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dscarpa
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5836642 - 05/02/13 04:01 PM

I have a 20 ES100 too, after CN discount about $290. For me the cost of a 21 Ethos is almost 2 weeks pay. I also have a 14 ES82 that cost me $99. That said I've got bunch of TV eyepieces. I tend to go top shelf on eyepieces that like my 13 Ethos are used for lunar-planetary. Even so the 82 ES isn't that far behind my TVs for it. My $220 Chinese made 16 WO UWAN is the equal of my TV and Pentax for everything. David

Edited by dscarpa (05/02/13 04:06 PM)


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jrbarnett
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5836669 - 05/02/13 04:15 PM

17 years.

And patent is only effective if you aggressively patent new enhancements to effectively extend that period and also aggressively enforce you patents, both of which cost big bucks. That's why Apple does it and Televue doesn't. I don't think Televue has filed for a patent since the 1980s.

- Jim


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WesC
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: russell23]
      #5836687 - 05/02/13 04:28 PM

This is a really interesting discussion... as someone who is a fan of TV eyepieces I am looking at ES with curiosity, especially the 30mm 82-degree ep that's 1/3 the price of the 31mm Nagler. :/

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GeneT
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Starman1]
      #5836726 - 05/02/13 04:52 PM

Quote:

It has driven many other companies out of the eyepiece market (in 2009, there were almost 1600 eyepieces available to the US consumer; now fewer than 1000).




Might this be why ES has dropped their prices--to run other companies out of town? Did our steel mills suffer over the years because of the Chinese dumping product below cost? For me the question is not why TeleVue prices are so high, but why ES prices are so low.


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Starman1
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: dscarpa]
      #5836733 - 05/02/13 04:54 PM

Quote:

I have a 20 ES100 too, after CN discount about $290. For me the cost of a 21 Ethos is almost 2 weeks pay. I also have a 14 ES82 that cost me $99. That said I've got bunch of TV eyepieces. I tend to go top shelf on eyepieces that like my 13 Ethos are used for lunar-planetary. Even so the 82 ES isn't that far behind my TVs for it. My $220 Chinese made 16 WO UWAN is the equal of my TV and Pentax for everything. David



TeleVue's average eyepiece price is $405.67, and that's skewed by the Ethos eyepieces.
Take the Ethos out of the picture and the average is $339.29
Not quite so out of reach, eh?


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Astrojensen
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: MikeBOKC]
      #5836751 - 05/02/13 05:02 PM

Quote:

For most of us a quality eyepiece is something that will last and be used for many years, in some cases decades. How many hours will it ride in a diagonal over those decades? Thousands probably for an avid and active astronomer. When you look at it that way (and I do) any substantial up front investment in any astronomy equipment is just that, an investment, not a cost or expense.




In order to invest, you need to have something to invest. I saved for almost six months before I could afford my three ES82 eyepieces. That amount of cash couldn't even buy me the 31mm Nagler. And an eyepiece with those data (focal length, FOV) was what I badly wanted, though my observing projects also screamed for some wide, short eyepieces. Now I also got an 18mm and an 11mm, almost as if they were thrown in for free. I couldn't find a used 31mm Nagler here in Europe and nobody please give me the "just get one from A-Mart or CN classifieds" answer. Almost no one in the US wants to ship outside the US. Just look at the Classifieds here on CN and note how many ads end in "Ships CONUS only". And if you can only afford to invest $500 (or whatever) it's a bit meaningless to call a $1000 something "an investment", because it's never going to be that, it's just a dream.

Oh sure, I could have sat on the money and waited, slowly saving up more, but then what would have happened? I would run the risk that the ES sale would be over or all the eyepieces would be out of stock. I could also have run the risk that something unfortunate would have happened to my car or something and the money would be used on something else.

And more importantly, then I would not have been outside with four excellent 82° AFOV eyepieces, like I can be now. Maybe with one, if I was lucky, but definitely not four.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Aquila1185
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5836778 - 05/02/13 05:19 PM

My original plans had been to save up and accumulate an Ethos collection very slowly, as I built up the money. Reading the responses here, the ES route definitely seems the way to go. Not a concern now, as I'm still somewhat poor, but the calculus has been seriously altered. If you all are saying there is no (or very little) appreciable difference between an ES 100 and an Ethos (and, indeed, it does appear that a lot of you are going off personal preference) then doubling the cost just isn't worth it for young astronomers like me (I'm 27). That extra money can be put into my new house, put into retirement, etc.

The key for me (and I think, a lot of people in my position) is cost to results. Would I love to be able to put out that kind of money for the "best"? Heck yes! Were I 60 years old, close to retirement, house paid off, kids through college, no problem. However (and here's where I may be diverging from some); if I can get 95% of the value for half the price, I'm going to do it, especially if that 5% is debatable.

I don't know that "good enough" is a measure of "settling." I fully understand that you get what you pay for. But, what are you paying for? Telescopes also have this law of diminishing returns. My 3" cost 130 dollars. The Zhumell Z10 and Z12 (my current "window shopping" favorites for when I get a couple bucks) are ~500 and 700 respectively. The 16" Lightbridge is 2000. Then, you get into the crazy territory, five-figure Obsessions, et al. However, to go from 16" to 25" gives you what, one magnitude? I'm sure everyone here makes those calculations, even in telescopes.


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Astrojensen
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Starman1]
      #5836802 - 05/02/13 05:31 PM

Quote:

Take the Ethos out of the picture and the average is $339.29
Not quite so out of reach, eh?




I wish that was the price I had to pay. Here in Denmark, the Naglers average $542. If I get them from Switzerland, I can get them for an average $414. The ES82's average just $211 over here.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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a__l
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Starman1]
      #5836815 - 05/02/13 05:36 PM

Quote:


3) There are ways in which the TeleVue products are superior: coatings and light transmission, superior polish, suppression of scattered light (a biggie, in my book), edge-of-field astigmatism correction, edge of field vignetting control, edge of field distortion correction, mechanical construction, lower incidence of dirt in between lenses, tighter tolerances for barrel diameters, individual QC testing, continual improvement of the product without price increases, more expensive glass types used, etc.





suppression of scattered light...

I agree. I compared Ethos 13mm and ES 14mm (both 100 deg) in scopes 18 and 24". My opinion ES14 - mediocre eyepiece (in comparison). Especially on bright objects in these scopes...


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5836821 - 05/02/13 05:41 PM

Quote:

For some reason I assumed that TV was made in the US, but is actually manufactured in Japan and Taiwan. ES is a Chinese owned company based in Arkansas but manufactured in China. Perhaps the cost of living and business taxes in NY affect the prices somewhat compared to Arkansas, but probably not by a factor of 2 or 3.




I believe that Explore Scientific is a subsidiary of Guangzhou Jinghua Optics and Electronics CO., Ltd which is located in China.

Jon


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: dscarpa]
      #5836838 - 05/02/13 05:47 PM

Quote:

I have a 20 ES100 too, after CN discount about $290. For me the cost of a 21 Ethos is almost 2 weeks pay. I also have a 14 ES82 that cost me $99. That said I've got bunch of TV eyepieces. I tend to go top shelf on eyepieces that like my 13 Ethos are used for lunar-planetary. Even so the 82 ES isn't that far behind my TVs for it. My $220 Chinese made 16 WO UWAN is the equal of my TV and Pentax for everything. David




I have the 28mm UWAN, it is not the equal of the 31mm Nagler, particularly in a fast scope. Ergonomically, it misses the boat as well.

Jon


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Astrojensen
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5836855 - 05/02/13 05:55 PM

Quote:

I have the 28mm UWAN, it is not the equal of the 31mm Nagler, particularly in a fast scope. Ergonomically, it misses the boat as well.




Ergonomically, the UWAN 28 is a horrible abomination of an eyepiece. Whoever thought the idea of making an almost 4" wide eyepiece with a flat top was a great one should be taken outside and beaten with said eyepiece until he promises never to get such ideas again.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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dscarpa
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5836869 - 05/02/13 06:07 PM

He's probably working for Meade now. My 18 Meade UWA needs a 31 Nagler size eyepiece bolt case which my 24 Meade UWA gets stuck in! The image in these eyepieces as well as the 20 ES100 is a lot like that of my 22 T4, very nice but short of Ethos quality. The presentation of the Ethos and T4 tops the others by a fair bit to my eye anyway. David

Edited by dscarpa (05/02/13 06:18 PM)


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russell23
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5836884 - 05/02/13 06:13 PM

Let me preface this by saying that this is intended to be lighthearted ... but ...

I think I'm getting a case of pricing whiplash. Back in the days of the long Brandon thread we had people upset that Brandons were way overpriced -- people that didn't seem to think the 100% Made in the USA (with higher labor costs for subcontracted parts) could possibly explain the Brandon's costing 2-3x a UO ortho manufactured in Japan.

Now people are upset that ES eyepieces are underpriced. Given the supply issues I think that is a fair conclusion ... but since when do people complain that they've paid too little for something?

Dave


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russell23
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5836888 - 05/02/13 06:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I have the 28mm UWAN, it is not the equal of the 31mm Nagler, particularly in a fast scope. Ergonomically, it misses the boat as well.




Ergonomically, the UWAN 28 is a horrible abomination of an eyepiece. Whoever thought the idea of making an almost 4" wide eyepiece with a flat top was a great one should be taken outside and beaten with said eyepiece until he promises never to get such ideas again.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark






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John Huntley
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5836985 - 05/02/13 06:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Take the Ethos out of the picture and the average is $339.29
Not quite so out of reach, eh?




I wish that was the price I had to pay. Here in Denmark, the Naglers average $542. If I get them from Switzerland, I can get them for an average $414. The ES82's average just $211 over here.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark




In the UK an ES 20 / 100 costs $660. Apparently ES won't allow UK dealers to use anything near the US prices

So we are buying them from US dealers and paying the import duty / mail handling charges and still saving big time. Seems rather crazy to have to do this though


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JMW
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: John Huntley]
      #5837229 - 05/02/13 09:02 PM

I just sold 3 Naglar T4 eyepieces on Astromart last night. Haven't used them since I filled my eyepiece case with 100 degree AFOV eyepieces from TV and ES. I bought the eyepieces for about 72% of list and sold them for a little more than 50% of current list. I used them for about 4 years. I figure about $25/year for each eyepiece. They are still as good as the day I bought them and a couple of other people will be happy to have them.

I had 2 local buyers that I preferred over out of country buyers. One out of country buyer's reply just screamed of fraud. The other looked legit from Australia but I wasn't going to hassle with that when I can sell to local buyers. One buyer meet me at my work place at lunch about 15 hours after I placed the ad.

I think quality astronomy stuff holds it's value well and is easy to sell. Optics pricing holds up because new stuff isn't getting cheaper usually. Electronic astronomy stuff looses value much more quickly. Longer focal length huge dobs take a big hit because more people want the short focal length ladderless scopes. If you want to use a big heavy dob with a ladder it's a used buyer's market.


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Mariner@sg
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5837358 - 05/02/13 10:19 PM

Quote:

I couldn't find a used 31mm Nagler here in Europe and nobody please give me the "just get one from A-Mart or CN classifieds" answer. Almost no one in the US wants to ship outside the US. Just look at the Classifieds here on CN and note how many ads end in "Ships CONUS only".




Same sentiments here. I have seen many items that I want slip through because of that. Fortunately, there are quite a fair bit of friendly CNers who are willing to go through that hassle for non-US buyers.


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ibase
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Mariner@sg]
      #5837402 - 05/02/13 10:43 PM

An option for outside-USA residents is to buy & pay online at US prices and have the astro gear purchases delivered at the US address of a door-to-door delivery service, then ship one time via cheaper cargo ship route.


Best,


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DrBoring
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: ibase]
      #5837910 - 05/03/13 09:35 AM

I've really enjoyed reading this thread! The x-ray link was super cool!

One point that has not been brought up yet ... You can rest assured that purchasing TV EP will not leave you with buyers remorse for the quality of your purchase. Reviews compare TV EP vs any other and show marginal differences ... Well, nobody gets a lemon. If you live alone in a cave as I do, then a TV EP purchase brings no further concern.

Second ... The ethos are their top of the line EP, so they are the most expensive. It's not going to be in everyone's budget, the way a celestron CGE PRO 1400 edge HD Telescope isn't in everyone's budget (msrp $9999.00).


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: DrBoring]
      #5837934 - 05/03/13 09:48 AM

Quote:


One point that has not been brought up yet ...




Another thing that I have not seen mentioned is that TeleVue stocks parts and they will clean and/or repair your eyepiece if need be. Since most damage is due to operator error, dropped for example or somehow damaged, this is service beyond that covered by a warranty.

Jon


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Binojunky
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5838056 - 05/03/13 10:43 AM

Lots of the usual waffle about the pros and comes of competing makes, myself I would rather save my money to travel to better and darker skies, lots of people out there who spend a fortune on high end gear who never move out of their light polluted back yard. Another aspect are the poor b#####s who have had to dispose of their gear because of impending blindness from say Macular Degenaration or other eye disease, they probably don,t give a toss who,s name is on the barrel or its country of origin.
I speak personally of eye disease by the way, with a ongoing fight with Glaucoma, JMPOV, DA.


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Scanning4Comets
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Binojunky]
      #5838185 - 05/03/13 11:45 AM

I just ordered a 28mm ES...Can't wait to try it out. It's really sad to see people here bashing non-TV products. What a shame, because a lot of eyepieces are put together overseas anyways....

Cheers,


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russell23
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5838285 - 05/03/13 12:32 PM

Don,
Great post! Thanks for taking the time to outline all this. Comments following your numbered points are not necessarily disagreement – just my perspective.
Quote:

Well, as a dealer for both lines, I feel I can comment here:

1) The pricing of goods made in mainland China, labor-wise, is a tiny fraction of the significantly higher wages paid in Taiwan, and a much tinier percentage of the labor paid in Japan. You really can't compare products made in China by price alone.



Labor costs alone give made in China products a huge advantage. Unfortunately, not all the products coming out of China are of high or durable quality. Every year I have to go to buy new fans for the summer because the fans bought the previous year have worn out. The supplies I get from vendors for my chemistry lab that come from China are vastly inferior to the older made in the USA materials.
In the case of ES eyepieces, I’ve been very impressed by the high quality – especially the ES68’s.

Quote:

2) If labor were the only difference, it might be foolish to buy Taiwanese or Japanese goods, but labor is not the only difference.

3) There are ways in which the TeleVue products are superior: coatings and light transmission, superior polish, suppression of scattered light (a biggie, in my book), edge-of-field astigmatism correction, edge of field vignetting control, edge of field distortion correction, mechanical construction, lower incidence of dirt in between lenses, tighter tolerances for barrel diameters, individual QC testing, continual improvement of the product without price increases, more expensive glass types used, etc.



Yes – TV eyepieces are superior in many respects, but what I have found is that they are not superior in all respects and it certainly depends upon the line. What matters the most is an individual’s preferences. My experience is that it is not correct to say that all TV products are superior in all respects to all similar specification lines from lower cost options. In other words people shouldn’t assume that by spending the extra $$ for the TV they are going to gain satisfaction in every performance characteristic.
For example, for me, the 27mm Panoptic is inferior to the 28mm ES68 in important optical characteristics. The difference in the level of pincushion is staggering. There is hardly any pincushion in the 28mm ES68 whereas the 27mm Pan left me feeling like I was bobbing on the ocean. The 27mm Pan made the image seem dim whereas the 28mm ES68 seems very bright. BillP reported the same in comparing the 24mm ES68 to the 24mm Pan in his review. That would seem to imply that for the Panoptic line transmission at least is not superior.
Another thing that is interesting to me is the variations across eyepiece FL within lines (not just TV). I found the 10mm Delos to be just about the closest thing to perfection I’ve ever looked through and it barlowed well so I got this idea that I would sell the 10mm Delos, grab a 17.3mm Delos and get more value for my $$ because I could have the one eyepiece and barlow it to 3 or 4 magnifications. But the 17.3mm Delos did not rise to the level of the 10mm Delos. I didn’t like it – some edge brightening and not as sharp near the edges – weird barrel effect near the edges too. None of those things were present in the 10mm Delos.

Quote:

4) The pricing of ES eyepieces is below that of the same manufacturer's eyepieces when they were sold by others. There are reasons for that and not every one is related to JOC owning the supply chain. The retail pricing should be a lot higher but isn't because of predatorily low pricing (when ES dropped the 20mm 100 degree from $599 to $299, did the cost go down by 50%? No.). It has driven many other companies out of the eyepiece market (in 2009, there were almost 1600 eyepieces available to the US consumer; now fewer than 1000). The eyepieces would have sold just as well at somewhat higher prices. Some Chinese manufacturers' equivalent products do. In fact, the low prices have resulted in a world-wide shortage, proving that prices could have been higher, given the supply/demand curve realities. If the supply now goes back up, and prices rise just a little, the mfr. will be in a much stronger market position.



Yes – Meade and Celestron are going to have to up their game to compete – not necessarily in terms of pricing, but in terms of quality of product. The 19mm Luminos was inferior to TV products in every respect that I care about. Not so with the ES68’s.

Quote:

5) Whether a price is high or not is in the eye of the beholder. To people on fixed incomes, or who have little discretionary income, TeleVue prices seem high and TeleVue gets picked on incessantly because of that. Yet, Zeiss, Takahashi, Nikon, Docter, Leica, and several other brands are higher (in some cases a LOT higher) yet they don't get picked on for their prices. Are they somehow worth their high prices when TeleVue is not? Or is a lot of the conversation about TeleVue prices because they are actually desired but just difficult to afford? If you compare TeleVue's prices with others, how about comparing them to other companies instead of arbitrarily taking the Chinese company with the lowest prices on similar models? How well does Audi compete with Hyundai on prices? It's probably better to compare Audi with Acura. At least they're comparable. Looked at in that way, TeleVue is the cheapest brand among the high-end companies, and the closest to affordable by everyone.



I agree. I don’t understand the inconsistency in all this. I do not have an issue with TV prices – just the notion that the higher price means that every TV eyepiece is better and therefore that people that can’t afford them should aspire to find the means to eventually own them. Maybe it has something to do with the limited options those other manufacturers have to offer – so they are seen as more of a luxury item and therefore a high price should be expected.

Quote:

6) The supposedly high prices for TeleVue really aren't that high. It's that expectations have changed. If you take the average weekly income for a typical American worker, a TeleVue 82 degree Nagler costs less than a week's income. An Erfle eyepiece in 1965 would have been pretty close to the same percentage of a week's income. Yet, the Nagler is better in every single parameter of eyepiece design and manufacture. In a sense, the Nagler is cheaper, if you think in 1965 dollars and only count inflation. With inflation only, a $50 eyepiece in 1965 would be $359 today. Yet, $359 today gets a vastly superior eyepiece to $50 in 1965. We paid $50 for a lot of eyepieces then. Why doesn't everyone look at paying $359 the same way?



Good point. Here’s a hypothesis on this – people get used to the idea of prices coming down for items with similar specifications. As an example, when I bought my first modern flat screen LCD TV (Sony Bravia) 5 or 6 years ago I spent $1180 on a 32” model. A few weeks ago we were browsing the TV’s in Best Buy and a 40” Sony Bravia LED TV (newer technology) costs $500.
I’m not saying we should expect the eyepiece market to work the same way, but in effect that is what is happening. My $150 28mm ES68 would then be a $1077 in 1965 $. So just like the Televisions we’re getting significantly improved quality and performance for much less equivalent cost. If $50 was a premium eyepiece price in the 1960’s, then $359 is a premium eyepiece price today – which is about what the average TV eyepiece costs.

Quote:

7) And along the way, the cost of aluminum, brass, glass, rare earths, coatings, freight, and energy, and labor costs have all gone up, yet most of those cost increases don't show up in the retail prices.



This is the reason – as the ES sale has gone on and supplies of certain FL have dwindled to nothing - that I have finally come to accept the conclusion that ES eyepieces are being underpriced. Last fall when people were complaining, it was still possible to get most of the FL. At this point the ES100’s, and long FL 82’s and 68’s are all you can count on finding. I also think at this point the idea of spending $119, 129, 139 on these shorter FL ES82’s doesn’t seem like a big deal.

Quote:

8) So is it possible for a person who has a modest income to be able to afford to buy a TeleVue eyepiece? Sure, but it's all about priorities. When I was young and couldn't afford a car or even a telephone, I had a top-of-the-line bicycle. And that bicycle cost me a month's income. I was racing, and that was my priority. I have friends who fish and golf and race cars, and they all spend vastly larger sums on their hobbies than I spend on astronomy. My friend who races cars spends the equivalent of an Ethos eyepiece every week on racing. Obviously, his income isn't as limited as some people looking at purchasing a TeleVue eyepiece for whom that expenditure would be hard. But it's his priority. I owned over a hundred eyepieces at a time when my income was 1/5 the level it is now. Now I have 8 for 3 scopes and though they are more expensive per unit, I have a lot less money tied up in eyepieces than I did then. Priorities.

9) I can totally understand why purchasing a top-of-the-line eyepiece might not be a priority in your life. But if you felt like you could afford it, would you? And are there other things in your life you spend more money on than astronomy? Then you are merely prioritizing your purchases. Most people I know who work for a living and have a take home pay could afford to buy TeleVue eyepieces. You might buy fewer of them than the inexpensive brands, and your purchases might take more time. But, telescopes come and go, while eyepieces stick around a lot longer (witness the number of CNers who have piles of them).



I absolutely understand what you are saying. As I said – I have no problems with the TV prices. But I also don’t think most people that find TV eyepieces a price stretch would see it simply as a matter of prioritizing other frivolous expenses over eyepieces. It might be more a matter of prioritizing bills and groceries over their hobby.

Quote:

10) Last, TeleVue does have some lower-priced eyepieces. They are super high quality 50 degree field eyepieces, just not 82 degree.



People do want the wide-field experience – not just the 50 deg experience. And people want quality as well. TV’s business approach has been to let others handle the lower cost wide-field experience – perhaps assuming that the quality of those low cost options would always leave people wanting to eventually “move up to” a TV. That’s fine, but if ES has through a variety of factors been able to make the idea of saving up for a Nagler less attractive by offering very high quality affordable 82 deg lines, then TV is losing out because of their own business choice. TV could have a long time ago chosen to market an economy line of 82 deg eyepieces – perhaps even use a design developed by someone else instead of Nagler himself and just enforce strict QC on the manufacturer. If they had done so they might have prevented Celestron, Meade, and ES from gaining any significant foothold in the 82 deg market. And they could have done so at any point because people do trust the TV name.

Dave


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astro_baby
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5838302 - 05/03/13 12:41 PM

Passs the popcorn please

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PJ Anway
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: astro_baby]
      #5838449 - 05/03/13 01:59 PM

Quote:

Passs the popcorn please



You can have the rest of mine, I've eaten enough....


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BillP
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5838546 - 05/03/13 02:58 PM

Quote:

It's really sad to see people here bashing non-TV products. What a shame, because a lot of eyepieces are put together overseas anyways....





Excellent point!! Not only is it a shame...it's shameful as well. Bashing something because of its point of manufacture or country of origin I believe fits the definitions of prejudice and bias quite well. China, Taiwan, Japan, and the USA all make both poor products and great products.


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MRNUTTY
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: BillP]
      #5838590 - 05/03/13 03:15 PM

I don't see any bashing.

Bill, 'stereotyping' would be a less confrontational word.


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Starman1
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: DrBoring]
      #5838600 - 05/03/13 03:19 PM

Quote:

I've really enjoyed reading this thread! The x-ray link was super cool!

One point that has not been brought up yet ... You can rest assured that purchasing TV EP will not leave you with buyers remorse for the quality of your purchase. Reviews compare TV EP vs any other and show marginal differences ... Well, nobody gets a lemon. If you live alone in a cave as I do, then a TV EP purchase brings no further concern.

Second ... The ethos are their top of the line EP, so they are the most expensive. It's not going to be in everyone's budget, the way a celestron CGE PRO 1400 edge HD Telescope isn't in everyone's budget (msrp $9999.00).




And that pretty much sums it up.

The only additional point I would make is that I have compared the ES68 line in the field with other eyepieces of similar focal length. Despite the comments from others, I find they have significant problems with stray light and do not produce the contrast in the image of the comparable TeleVues.
Especially when the Moon is up or a really bright star is just outside the field of view.
[I used to give binoculars the "streetlight test"--you put a streetlight just outside the field of view and see if 1) you can tell there is a streetlight outside the field of view and 2) what direction the streetlight lies. Nearly every binocular at every price failed the first test, and many, if not most, failed the second as well. With one particular Leica, when the streetlight was outside the field of view, it simply disappeared from reality. It was the only binocular I ever tested that passed that test with an "Excellent".]
So it is with the ES68s. They're not bad eyepieces in general, and better than most in the price range, but they only get a "poor" rating from me on the "bright star outside the field of view" test. In contrast, the equivalent Panoptics rated much higher. The brightness seen is more an overall field brightness than it is the revelation of fainter stars.


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Monoeil
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: BillP]
      #5838653 - 05/03/13 03:59 PM

Quote:

Quote:

It's really sad to see people here bashing non-TV products. What a shame, because a lot of eyepieces are put together overseas anyways....





Excellent point!! Not only is it a shame...it's shameful as well. Bashing something because of its point of manufacture or country of origin I believe fits the definitions of prejudice and bias quite well. China, Taiwan, Japan, and the USA all make both poor products and great products.




If it were true, I would read bad comments on Takahashi, Vixen or Baader Instruments products and commercial practices... Don't find many of them, I wonder why.


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BillP
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5838792 - 05/03/13 05:29 PM

Quote:

I think both Uncle Al and Roland Christen could have used their talents elsewhere and made buckloads of money but I think for both of them, what they do is a labor of love.




I think they are both doing just fine in the money department and neither is "just getting by" I also don't see the labor-of-love aspect as they both are good businessmen and good professionals in their chosen fields and doing quite better than well compared to the median standard I'd say. Of course it's always good when a business professional also enjoys their work from a hobby perspective also. But when the rubber hits the road, its usually on a dollar.


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linux
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Sagitta]
      #5838931 - 05/03/13 07:17 PM

Quote:

As I see it, the Western World is getting poorer while Asian countries (especially China) are getting richer. So Televue have changed their bussiness model: As Americans & Europeans buy affordable "Made in China" EPs, Televue sell their "Made in USA" EPs to the new Asian middle class.

Welcome to the 21st century!




Near as I've been able to tell, TV eyepieces are not made in the USA, but in Japan and Taiwan.


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linux
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5839062 - 05/03/13 09:06 PM

Wow. Given that I was really just grousing about the price of the Ethos 21, this has turned into quite a thread. I'm one of those 60's and retired guys as one reply pointed out, but everybody has a price threshold whether it's $895 or $1895 for an eyepiece. Being a believer of quality and investment, I'll likely buy more Ethoi at $650 or $615 each, but I just could not pull the trigger on the 21 for a $600 difference.

As far as made in China, Taiwan, Japan or USA, it's interesting to consider which counties have the lowest labor costs or best quality, but buyers don't really care. If the design and build quality is good, price is competitive and has a good warranty, they'll do well. And being made in China does not mean you'll have poor quality. It's a matter of the design, build process and culture. Ask Apple.

I only have the one ES100-20 now, so I'm not a fan boy and it may be my last, but the 100 line seems to have a great following. As I'll likely be an "investor" in TV, I want them to to succeed, but they had better pay attention to who's nipping at their heels. Asking a hefty premium for a 5% difference and selling to fewer and fewer people who are willing to pay for that difference is a recipe for trouble.

Just my 2 cents.


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Bakes
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5839132 - 05/03/13 09:46 PM

I wonder if ES has already caused TV to review their business model? In a world without ES, would the Delos line be priced as they are? Sure, the Delos has a narrower FOV, but most reviews suggest improved contrast and sharpness. Not to mention the improved eye relief.

Conversely, where ES has a unique product, the 9mm ES120, they are willing to charge a premium.

I'm just engaging in some idle speculation here. Take it for what little it is worth.


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linux
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Bakes]
      #5839146 - 05/03/13 09:54 PM

Bakes, I notice that you have the exact same Ethos set that I have planned: Ethos, 21mm, 13mm, 8mm, 4.7mm

I started with the 13mm, got cold feet with the 21 (and hence this thread about buying the ES 20 instead), and plan next on the 8, then maybe the 4.7. I also thought about the 17 but that's about $1900 away

Are you satisfied with your choices?


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Bakes
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5839208 - 05/03/13 10:24 PM

Hi linux,

To provide context, please understand I observe from a white zone backyard with middle-aged, astigmatic eyes. Having said that, I find the 21, 13, 8, 4.7 to provide a useful range of magnification and exit pupils. With my XT10 I can get a mag range of 56X to 254X. Exit pupils range 4.5mm to 1mm. Neither too big nor too small for my site and eyes. I would prefer they had more eye relief. But I still can take in the whole field of view with eyeglasses. I just need to get in close.

I see you already have the 13mm, a good choice! It is the Ethos FL that Uncle Al started with. It is also my most used eyepiece.

To answer your question. I am quite satisfied with this set. I have no plans to buy any other Ethoi. Though if I was to move someplace with truly dark skies, I'd pick up a 31mm Nagler to extend my set.


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la200o
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5839320 - 05/03/13 11:21 PM

Quote:


That being said, I believe they price model will ultimatly erode their customer base with en-masse defections to what appear to be similarly good eyepeices for a fraction of the price.




Yep. I have all the Ethoi (most bought used) and think they are great, but this price model cannot last. The TV 102 succumbed to the market, and I'm afraid, given cheap and competent overseas optical labor, the TV eyepieces may also. Interesting that TV seems to be concentrating on the less expensive Delos line now, rather than the pricey Ethoi.

Bill



Edited by la200o (05/03/13 11:24 PM)


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Geo31
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: la200o]
      #5839435 - 05/04/13 01:25 AM

Quality is not a matter of where something is made. Quality is a management decision. The quality you get (buy) is dependent upon what management will accept for variances and you will pay for that as well.

I posted something similar to the following but the moderators apparently felt they should delete it because in another post I made a comment that could be taken as political (I can see killing that post, but why the one that had zero reference to apparent politics seems silly).

One aspect of buying from TV that hasn't been discussed is it's a "safe" purchase. TV EPs are largely considered to be of consistently high quality. There is also a strong secondary market for them. As such, they tend to retain more of their value in the secondary market. It was this that helped me to decide to buy TV EPs as I have just returned to this endeavor after 35 years on the sidelines. I was having a lot of trouble deciding what to buy and a good deal surfaced on 3 TV Plossls. It was a no-brainer because I could be pretty confident in the quality and if I decide to go another direction, I'm confident I'll get my money back. That cannot be said of most other brands.

There will always be a strong market for brands considered consistently among the best, even if the prices seem high.


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Astrojensen
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Geo31]
      #5839519 - 05/04/13 03:43 AM

Quote:

One aspect of buying from TV that hasn't been discussed is it's a "safe" purchase. TV EPs are largely considered to be of consistently high quality. There is also a strong secondary market for them. As such, they tend to retain more of their value in the secondary market. It was this that helped me to decide to buy TV EPs as I have just returned to this endeavor after 35 years on the sidelines. I was having a lot of trouble deciding what to buy and a good deal surfaced on 3 TV Plossls. It was a no-brainer because I could be pretty confident in the quality and if I decide to go another direction, I'm confident I'll get my money back. That cannot be said of most other brands.




For me, the resale value of an eyepiece is of extremely minor importance, if any. When I shopped for my ES82's, I knew I had two weeks to find out whether they were up to snuff or not, and if not, I could safely return them and get all my money back. And if they did live up to expectations (which they certainly have), then I want to keep them for a very long time. And while they may not retain their value as well as TeleVue eyepieces do, they are still very good eyepieces and their value will never drop to zero (I think, but who can accurately predict the future...).

But I absolutely agree that TeleVue is a safe buy quality-wise, perhaps the safest one out there.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: russell23]
      #5839604 - 05/04/13 06:03 AM

Quote:

TV could have a long time ago chosen to market an economy line of 82 deg eyepieces – perhaps even use a design developed by someone else instead of Nagler himself and just enforce strict QC on the manufacturer. If they had done so they might have prevented Celestron, Meade, and ES from gaining any significant foothold in the 82 deg market. And they could have done so at any point because people do trust the TV name.




A few thoughts:

- The reason people trust the TeleVue name is that they have not chosen to compromise quality in the interest of market share.

- Economy widefield eyepieces are actually a boon to TeleVue, they provide people with a taste of what is possible. At some point, they are likely to want something better.

- TeleVue is a small company and certainly doesn't seem to be interested in dominating the marketplace by offering products of lesser quality. Knowing what I know of Al Nagler, I imagine he is just so happy to see that his vision of amateur astronomy has become so pervasive, such a dominant vision among the community.

For example, it's easy to forget how important TeleVue was to the development of the modern large Dobsonian. Without the Paracorr, without the Naglers, F/4 Newtonians that provided clean, sharp views across the field of view would not have been possible. And now with the Paracorr II and the Ethos eyepieces, it makes the compact F/3 Dob possible, flat foot scopes that are 20 inches and larger...

When a company builds products that are on the front line, that change the face of the hobby, that enable new developments other parts of the hobby, it doesn't make a lot of sense to cut corners, you let other people do that... If Al Nagler had been interested in making a pile of money, he would not have chosen Amateur Astronomy for his focus. But as a life long amateur astronomer, he had a vision and his vision has transformed this wonderful hobby.



Jon Isaacs


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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Starman1]
      #5839618 - 05/04/13 06:23 AM

Quote:

Well, as a dealer for both lines, I feel I can comment here:

1) The pricing of goods made in mainland China, labor-wise, is a tiny fraction of the significantly higher wages paid in Taiwan, and a much tinier percentage of the labor paid in Japan. You really can't compare products made in China by price alone.

2) If labor were the only difference, it might be foolish to buy Taiwanese or Japanese goods, but labor is not the only difference.

3) There are ways in which the TeleVue products are superior: coatings and light transmission, superior polish, suppression of scattered light (a biggie, in my book), edge-of-field astigmatism correction, edge of field vignetting control, edge of field distortion correction, mechanical construction, lower incidence of dirt in between lenses, tighter tolerances for barrel diameters, individual QC testing, continual improvement of the product without price increases, more expensive glass types used, etc.

4) The pricing of ES eyepieces is below that of the same manufacturer's eyepieces when they were sold by others. There are reasons for that and not every one is related to JOC owning the supply chain. The retail pricing should be a lot higher but isn't because of predatorily low pricing (when ES dropped the 20mm 100 degree from $599 to $299, did the cost go down by 50%? No.). It has driven many other companies out of the eyepiece market (in 2009, there were almost 1600 eyepieces available to the US consumer; now fewer than 1000). The eyepieces would have sold just as well at somewhat higher prices. Some Chinese manufacturers' equivalent products do. In fact, the low prices have resulted in a world-wide shortage, proving that prices could have been higher, given the supply/demand curve realities. If the supply now goes back up, and prices rise just a little, the mfr. will be in a much stronger market position.

5) Whether a price is high or not is in the eye of the beholder. To people on fixed incomes, or who have little discretionary income, TeleVue prices seem high and TeleVue gets picked on incessantly because of that. Yet, Zeiss, Takahashi, Nikon, Docter, Leica, and several other brands are higher (in some cases a LOT higher) yet they don't get picked on for their prices. Are they somehow worth their high prices when TeleVue is not? Or is a lot of the conversation about TeleVue prices because they are actually desired but just difficult to afford? If you compare TeleVue's prices with others, how about comparing them to other companies instead of arbitrarily taking the Chinese company with the lowest prices on similar models? How well does Audi compete with Hyundai on prices? It's probably better to compare Audi with Acura. At least they're comparable. Looked at in that way, TeleVue is the cheapest brand among the high-end companies, and the closest to affordable by everyone.

6) The supposedly high prices for TeleVue really aren't that high. It's that expectations have changed. If you take the average weekly income for a typical American worker, a TeleVue 82 degree Nagler costs less than a week's income. An Erfle eyepiece in 1965 would have been pretty close to the same percentage of a week's income. Yet, the Nagler is better in every single parameter of eyepiece design and manufacture. In a sense, the Nagler is cheaper, if you think in 1965 dollars and only count inflation. With inflation only, a $50 eyepiece in 1965 would be $359 today. Yet, $359 today gets a vastly superior eyepiece to $50 in 1965. We paid $50 for a lot of eyepieces then. Why doesn't everyone look at paying $359 the same way?

7) And along the way, the cost of aluminum, brass, glass, rare earths, coatings, freight, and energy, and labor costs have all gone up, yet most of those cost increases don't show up in the retail prices.

8) So is it possible for a person who has a modest income to be able to afford to buy a TeleVue eyepiece? Sure, but it's all about priorities. When I was young and couldn't afford a car or even a telephone, I had a top-of-the-line bicycle. And that bicycle cost me a month's income. I was racing, and that was my priority. I have friends who fish and golf and race cars, and they all spend vastly larger sums on their hobbies than I spend on astronomy. My friend who races cars spends the equivalent of an Ethos eyepiece every week on racing. Obviously, his income isn't as limited as some people looking at purchasing a TeleVue eyepiece for whom that expenditure would be hard. But it's his priority. I owned over a hundred eyepieces at a time when my income was 1/5 the level it is now. Now I have 8 for 3 scopes and though they are more expensive per unit, I have a lot less money tied up in eyepieces than I did then. Priorities.

9) I can totally understand why purchasing a top-of-the-line eyepiece might not be a priority in your life. But if you felt like you could afford it, would you? And are there other things in your life you spend more money on than astronomy? Then you are merely prioritizing your purchases. Most people I know who work for a living and have a take home pay could afford to buy TeleVue eyepieces. You might buy fewer of them than the inexpensive brands, and your purchases might take more time. But, telescopes come and go, while eyepieces stick around a lot longer (witness the number of CNers who have piles of them).

10) Last, TeleVue does have some lower-priced eyepieces. They are super high quality 50 degree field eyepieces, just not 82 degree.

There is no question that the inexpensive eyepieces have improved in quality over the last couple decades. And that's a good thing for astronomy. Telescopes have gone down and have improved a lot. We have China to thank for that. But if you look at where the top-of-the-line astronomy stuff comes from, it's Japan, USA, Europe, where labor costs are high, and design quality and standards are still higher. Taiwan is transitioning (or has transitioned) into that market. It's no accident the high-end stuff comes from those places.

Just a little different point of view from some posters.




Great post. In my other hobby that involves optics, photography, a $1200 lens would be considered very moderately priced. Top of the line lenses may cost 10X that much.


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Binojunky
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Paul G]
      #5839967 - 05/04/13 11:49 AM

Worth mentioning the TV eyepieces aren,t bullet proof either, go back over this forum and their have been a few cases of defects,one case that came to mind was a retaining ring chewed up during assembly,to be fair the problems were rectified, however other manufacturers/importers of eyepieces have a similar stellar (pun intended) reputation for customer service,my own opinion is that however good TV eyepieces are you tend to pay a bit for the name just like a high end watch or whatever, this however should not put you off if its the item you want,DA.

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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Geo31]
      #5840166 - 05/04/13 01:57 PM

I own both ES and TeleVue eyepieces. I used to complain about how much TV eyepieces cost but, they keep selling. If they weren't, TV would have to lower the price but, they sell enough it seems.
The first purchase that changed my opinion was the paracorr. It has excellent fit and finish and it works EXACTLY as advertised. How many astro ads promise far more than they deliver? Too many. Anyway this item works very well. Then trying some Nagler and Ethos eyepieces at star parties and comparing them to my ES eyepieces made me appreciate the quality of TeleVue eyepieces as well. Then I bought a TeleVue refractor. Again excellent quality and performance which sold me on Al Nagler's vision of extreme widefield views with larger aperture than what was available before. Flat field 4"f5.4 &5"f5.2 are two of my favorite refractors made today. They compliment large reflectors perfectly and give wonderful uberwide views.
Star parties are great for pointing your future purchases in the right direction. I got to try some Naglers and compare them to my ES82s. I also got to use some ethos and took note of the differences. ES eyepieces are great values and are the best that I have used at their price point.
TeleVue eyepieces are an obvious improvement though and the extra polishing and attention to detail costs money. TeleVue also offers repair services if you drop one or scratch a lens or buy one with damage. Plus if you call with a question, you could easily be talking with an amateur astronomy legend. Service like that is another reason I like to deal with the great American companies like starlight, moonlite, and TeleVue. They have better customer service than almost any other business including outside of this hobby.
I almost forgot to say that TeleVue eyepieces are far better than ES during the day. Try that comparison yourself if you doubt.


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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Bakes]
      #5840178 - 05/04/13 02:05 PM

I don't think that the Delos is a good example. ES has NO eyepiece design competitive with Delos. It has a Panoptic clone line, but no 70-degree LER line. The Delos' competition is the Pentax XW, Nikon NAV-SW and to a lesser extent Vixen LVW, and compared to those eyepieces the Deloses are priced at a premium over all but the rare Nikons. The Delos is also just a 6 element design. Not as costly to manufacture as the much more complex Ethos.

ES has targeted the Ethos, Nagler and Panoptic formats, and I expect that's why Televue went Delos. For some elbow room in a segment where the competition is either old ans stale (LVW), nearly invisible (Nikon) or dying (Pentax).

I'll add that I've compared the 41mm, 35mm and 27mm Panoptics to the corresponding ES 68s, and the ES68s, not the Televues, were more attenuated in my scopes. I no longer have the ESes. I still have the Panoptics. In fact, I offed all of my ES eyepieces (a mix of 100s, 82s and 68s) after extended used versus the Televue originals. Go figure.

I consider ESes low end eyepieces, Televues mid-range, and the exotic stuff (Zeiss, Nikon, Leitz, etc.) high-end. It's all relative I suppose.

Regards,

Jim

Edited by jrbarnett (05/04/13 02:10 PM)


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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5840273 - 05/04/13 03:14 PM

Quote:

I don't think that the Delos is a good example. ES has NO eyepiece design competitive with Delos.




Maybe their X-ray machine is broken?

Quote:

The Delos is also just a 6 element design. Not as costly to manufacture as the much more complex Ethos.




Really? I did not know Tele Vue released that information. From their marketing they give the impression Delos is some sort of slight variant of Ethos trading apparent field for eye relief. But then again, clarity is not what marketing is about.

If one makes the reasonable assumption of the same finish specifications perhaps a slightly simpler design contributes to the slight edge some have attributed in head-to-head.


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ibase
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5840292 - 05/04/13 03:25 PM

Quote:


Really? I did not know Tele Vue released that information.




Did we forget that the most interesting astronomer in the universe has x-ray eyes?

One link on Delos 6 (have one, love it!) vs Ethos here.

Best,


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Bakes
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5840368 - 05/04/13 04:21 PM

Hi Jim,

I am interested in your opinion of the Vixen LVW series. Are they really playing in the same league as the Delos line? Aside from the eye relief?

To keep it on topic, the Vixens are only 2/3rds the price of the Delos. How do they do for contrast and sharpness?


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Sean Puett
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5840411 - 05/04/13 04:45 PM

If the 21e is too expensive, and others are not, buy the shorter focal lengths that will give you a 1 &2mm exit pupils. There are also naglers if you want to spend less. 100* afov eyepieces are not required to enjoy astronomy. TeleVue also makes some of the best plossls on the planet all of which are around 100-150. Since gso plossls are $20-30, does that mean TeleVue plossls are overpriced? No, it means they are higher quality and corrected to f4.

Edited by Sean Puett (05/05/13 11:57 AM)


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planet earth
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Sean Puett]
      #5840421 - 05/04/13 04:50 PM

Quote:

it means they are higher quality and corrected to f4.



I don't think any plossls are corrected for f4 scopes.
I could be wrong!
Clear Skies
Sam


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Sean Puett
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: planet earth]
      #5840433 - 05/04/13 04:59 PM

TeleVue plossls are corrected to f4.

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Starman1
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5840547 - 05/04/13 06:22 PM

Quote:

I don't think that the Delos is a good example. ES has NO eyepiece design competitive with Delos. It has a Panoptic clone line, but no 70-degree LER line. The Delos' competition is the Pentax XW, Nikon NAV-SW and to a lesser extent Vixen LVW, and compared to those eyepieces the Deloses are priced at a premium over all but the rare Nikons. The Delos is also just a 6 element design. Not as costly to manufacture as the much more complex Ethos.

Regards,

Jim



Hmm. I would have bet 8 elements. 1) how do you know? 2) are you sure all focal lengths are the same? The XWs aren't.


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jrbarnett
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Bakes]
      #5840853 - 05/04/13 10:26 PM

You can get new LVWs for $249 currently. You can get used ones for $150 in great shape. Used is a better deal.

I *adore* the LVWs, but...

No eyepiece is without its faults and the LVWs are no exception. The throughput is not up to the level of Pentaxes or Televues. On DSOs that's a negative. On bright targets such as the moon, planets and unequal magnitude doubles with bright primaries, the mild attenuation coupled with good baffling and excellent polish is an asset. They're also a few degrees of AFOV short of the competition.

I like them as well as or perhaps better than the XWs and the jury is out on the Delos. I have only one Delos, a 6mm, and am on the fence about it. So used, in particular, I'd say the LVWs are a worthy if antiquated choice.

- Jim


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russell23
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Starman1]
      #5840854 - 05/04/13 10:27 PM

Quote:


The only additional point I would make is that I have compared the ES68 line in the field with other eyepieces of similar focal length. Despite the comments from others, I find they have significant problems with stray light and do not produce the contrast in the image of the comparable TeleVues.
Especially when the Moon is up or a really bright star is just outside the field of view.
[I used to give binoculars the "streetlight test"--you put a streetlight just outside the field of view and see if 1) you can tell there is a streetlight outside the field of view and 2) what direction the streetlight lies. Nearly every binocular at every price failed the first test, and many, if not most, failed the second as well. With one particular Leica, when the streetlight was outside the field of view, it simply disappeared from reality. It was the only binocular I ever tested that passed that test with an "Excellent".]
So it is with the ES68s. They're not bad eyepieces in general, and better than most in the price range, but they only get a "poor" rating from me on the "bright star outside the field of view" test. In contrast, the equivalent Panoptics rated much higher. The brightness seen is more an overall field brightness than it is the revelation of fainter stars.




I had just tried this "bright star" test myself 2 nights ago and after reading this I tried it again last night with more scrutiny. I guess I would need to buy a 27mm Pan again to see because I had Vega in and out of the edge of the field multiple times including panning slowly toward it from 5 or 6 degrees away and I saw no difference between the 28mm ES68, 20mm ES68, and 20mm XW. When Vega was just a sliver outside the field stop there was a tiny faint semicircle of glow that reached slightly into the field. I perhaps saw just the slightest brightening of the outer 10% of the field on the side of Vega as I approached Vega - but only when Vega was just outside the field stop.

My skies are excellent dark rural skies so I don't think stray light issues are being hidden by light pollution.

Looks like I've got another clear night so I guess I'll check it out again tonight.

Dave


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russell23
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5840875 - 05/04/13 10:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:

TV could have a long time ago chosen to market an economy line of 82 deg eyepieces – perhaps even use a design developed by someone else instead of Nagler himself and just enforce strict QC on the manufacturer. If they had done so they might have prevented Celestron, Meade, and ES from gaining any significant foothold in the 82 deg market. And they could have done so at any point because people do trust the TV name.




A few thoughts:

- The reason people trust the TeleVue name is that they have not chosen to compromise quality in the interest of market share.

- Economy widefield eyepieces are actually a boon to TeleVue, they provide people with a taste of what is possible. At some point, they are likely to want something better.

- TeleVue is a small company and certainly doesn't seem to be interested in dominating the marketplace by offering products of lesser quality. Knowing what I know of Al Nagler, I imagine he is just so happy to see that his vision of amateur astronomy has become so pervasive, such a dominant vision among the community.

For example, it's easy to forget how important TeleVue was to the development of the modern large Dobsonian. Without the Paracorr, without the Naglers, F/4 Newtonians that provided clean, sharp views across the field of view would not have been possible. And now with the Paracorr II and the Ethos eyepieces, it makes the compact F/3 Dob possible, flat foot scopes that are 20 inches and larger...

When a company builds products that are on the front line, that change the face of the hobby, that enable new developments other parts of the hobby, it doesn't make a lot of sense to cut corners, you let other people do that... If Al Nagler had been interested in making a pile of money, he would not have chosen Amateur Astronomy for his focus. But as a life long amateur astronomer, he had a vision and his vision has transformed this wonderful hobby.



Jon Isaacs




Good points Jon. I certainly think there have long been reasons for TV not to offer an economy line of widefield eyepieces. As a company, with a focus on developing premium lines of eyepieces and pushing the limits of eyepiece design, you have to decide if you want to risk your reputation by offering a lower cost option. So I get that. You also would run the risk of competing with your own top shelf products if you do offer a lower cost option.

My point is just that they have made the choices they made - reputation of producing premium eyepieces, goal of developing new lines (Ethos) that push the envelope, limitation of resources as a smaller company. I get all that and don't argue that they should have done anything differently. But they could have done it differently and just as they have been pushing the market wider and wider and better and better - so too have the low cost options been improving. ES products are much better than previous generations of low cost options. Just last night I was putting my 20mm ES68 that I just purchased against my 20mm XW. Perhaps the 20mm XW is a little more vibrant in its rendition, but without question the 20mm ES68 is sharper at the edge.

I still think this is a change in the game - in that you now have a low cost option that in some optical performance respects is better than premium options. If you happen to be one of those people that values highly the optical performance characteristics the ES eyepieces excel at, then the premium eyepieces might not be the better option in more ways than just cost.

Dave


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la200o
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: russell23]
      #5840885 - 05/04/13 10:55 PM

What are the optical performance aspects that the low cost ep's are better at than the premium ep's?

Bill


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Scanning4Comets
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: la200o]
      #5841041 - 05/05/13 01:26 AM

Quote:

TeleVue plossls are corrected to f4.

--------------------
Sean




Really? Please SHOW me in a real scope.

Quote:

I don't think any plossls are corrected for f4 scopes.
I could be wrong!
Clear Skies
Sam




They aren't, and TeleVue Plossls are not either. TV does make good EP's, but the 19mm and 22mm Pan's are a mess at the edges in a fast scope compared to other offerings.

The 22mm Vixen LVW has way better edge correction in a fast scope w/o a Paracorr than both the 19mm and 22m Pans. Heck, even the 17mm Vixen LVW has way better edge correction in a fast scope w/o a Paracorr than the 19mm Pan. Not ALL TeleVue eyepieces are corrected down to F/4 !

I tried a 35mm Panoptic for the third time last Thursday and I finally came to the conclusion that it had excellent correction, but horrible eye placement, kidney beans all over the place and had edge of field brightening in my fast 10" F/4.7 reflector. I then tried it in a friend's F/8.3 refractor and it was excellent......so the saying that TV EP's are corrected down to F/4 is A MYTH. IMO, the 34mm ES is eons better in a fast scope. I am looking forward to trying out the 28mm ES that is on the way and I bet 10 to 1 that it out-does the 27mm TV Panoptic in the same department I just mentioned except for correction.

Quote:

I own both ES and TeleVue eyepieces. I used to complain about how much TV eyepieces cost but, they keep selling. If they weren't, TV would have to lower the price but, they sell enough it seems.
The first purchase that changed my opinion was the paracorr. It has excellent fit and finish and it works EXACTLY as advertised. How many astro ads promise far more than they deliver? Too many. Anyway this item works very well. Then trying some Nagler and Ethos eyepieces at star parties and comparing them to my ES eyepieces made me appreciate the quality of TeleVue eyepieces as well. Then I bought a TeleVue refractor. Again excellent quality and performance which sold me on Al Nagler's vision of extreme widefield views with larger aperture than what was available before. Flat field 4"f5.4 &5"f5.2 are two of my favorite refractors made today. They compliment large reflectors perfectly and give wonderful uberwide views.
Star parties are great for pointing your future purchases in the right direction. I got to try some Naglers and compare them to my ES82s. I also got to use some ethos and took note of the differences. ES eyepieces are great values and are the best that I have used at their price point.
TeleVue eyepieces are an obvious improvement though and the extra polishing and attention to detail costs money. TeleVue also offers repair services if you drop one or scratch a lens or buy one with damage. Plus if you call with a question, you could easily be talking with an amateur astronomy legend. Service like that is another reason I like to deal with the great American companies like starlight, moonlite, and TeleVue. They have better customer service than almost any other business including outside of this hobby.
I almost forgot to say that TeleVue eyepieces are far better than ES during the day. Try that comparison yourself if you doubt.

--------------------
Sean




There are many TeleVue "fanboiz" here. I can name quite a few, but I won't name names to save a war from erupting.

TV makes great Ep's, I agree, but TV isn't all roses either.

Now all of the TV "fanboiz" will go ballistic on me for saying what I just said, BUT IT IS TRUE AND HARD TO SWALLOW.

Cheers,


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JayinUT
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5841067 - 05/05/13 02:18 AM

For me, the eyepiece that matters most to me are the ones I use and are in my focuser on a regular basis. For higher magnification these are the Pentax XW. My finder is the TV 27mm Panoptic. I own a few ES eyepieces and I do really enjoy their 30mm 82 degree. I am not overly happy with the 24mm 82 degree after trying it out on multiple outings and will probably be putting it up for sale soon. So for me, its really up to what one wants, what one prefers and what one can afford. In the end, I think looking up a lot even with what some is considered "low to mid grade level" eyepieces is better than not looking up. I had a lot of fun using a 21mm, 13mm and 5mm Stratus and Hyperion Eyepieces for a couple of years at one point. I saw a lot, learned a lot and as I eventually upgraded to other eyepieces, I found I had learned a lot because I was out as often as I could. I've learned more since then and will continue to learn and grow, but in the end, its looking up with what one can afford, what one is content with using and with what one wants that matters. Personally, I think there is room enough in the hobby for people and the eyepieces they choose and can afford as long as they are getting used.

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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: russell23]
      #5841191 - 05/05/13 06:49 AM

Quote:


My point is just that they have made the choices they made - reputation of producing premium eyepieces, goal of developing new lines (Ethos) that push the envelope, limitation of resources as a smaller company. I get all that and don't argue that they should have done anything differently. But they could have done it differently and just as they have been pushing the market wider and wider and better and better - so too have the low cost options been improving.




TeleVue has always offered a variety of choices and for a given field of view, be it 50 degrees, 68-70 degrees, 82 degrees or 100 degrees, they are arguably the best at what they do. I am not sure how they could have done it differently and maintained their quality approach.

Jon


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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5841218 - 05/05/13 07:27 AM

According to Tele Vue, all their eyepieces are tested at F/4.

The Panoptic series is a scaled design so off axis performance should be the same for all models.

See: Why Choose Tele Vue


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Shneor
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: cjc]
      #5841320 - 05/05/13 09:18 AM

Quote:

According to Tele Vue, all their eyepieces are tested at F/4.

The Panoptic series is a scaled design so off axis performance should be the same for all models.

See: Why Choose Tele Vue



"Tested"? What does that mean? The question is, what are the standards?
Clears,


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turtle86
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5841373 - 05/05/13 09:59 AM

Quote:

My EP case full of Televue EPs isn't going anywhere, not in my lifetime. It was all money well-spent. The rest of you suit yourselves.




+1 Same here. They'll have to pry my set of Ethos from my cold dead fingers.


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turtle86
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Starman1]
      #5841386 - 05/05/13 10:13 AM

Quote:

Well, as a dealer for both lines, I feel I can comment here:

1) The pricing of goods made in mainland China, labor-wise, is a tiny fraction of the significantly higher wages paid in Taiwan, and a much tinier percentage of the labor paid in Japan. You really can't compare products made in China by price alone.

2) If labor were the only difference, it might be foolish to buy Taiwanese or Japanese goods, but labor is not the only difference.

3) There are ways in which the TeleVue products are superior: coatings and light transmission, superior polish, suppression of scattered light (a biggie, in my book), edge-of-field astigmatism correction, edge of field vignetting control, edge of field distortion correction, mechanical construction, lower incidence of dirt in between lenses, tighter tolerances for barrel diameters, individual QC testing, continual improvement of the product without price increases, more expensive glass types used, etc.

4) The pricing of ES eyepieces is below that of the same manufacturer's eyepieces when they were sold by others. There are reasons for that and not every one is related to JOC owning the supply chain. The retail pricing should be a lot higher but isn't because of predatorily low pricing (when ES dropped the 20mm 100 degree from $599 to $299, did the cost go down by 50%? No.). It has driven many other companies out of the eyepiece market (in 2009, there were almost 1600 eyepieces available to the US consumer; now fewer than 1000). The eyepieces would have sold just as well at somewhat higher prices. Some Chinese manufacturers' equivalent products do. In fact, the low prices have resulted in a world-wide shortage, proving that prices could have been higher, given the supply/demand curve realities. If the supply now goes back up, and prices rise just a little, the mfr. will be in a much stronger market position.

5) Whether a price is high or not is in the eye of the beholder. To people on fixed incomes, or who have little discretionary income, TeleVue prices seem high and TeleVue gets picked on incessantly because of that. Yet, Zeiss, Takahashi, Nikon, Docter, Leica, and several other brands are higher (in some cases a LOT higher) yet they don't get picked on for their prices. Are they somehow worth their high prices when TeleVue is not? Or is a lot of the conversation about TeleVue prices because they are actually desired but just difficult to afford? If you compare TeleVue's prices with others, how about comparing them to other companies instead of arbitrarily taking the Chinese company with the lowest prices on similar models? How well does Audi compete with Hyundai on prices? It's probably better to compare Audi with Acura. At least they're comparable. Looked at in that way, TeleVue is the cheapest brand among the high-end companies, and the closest to affordable by everyone.

6) The supposedly high prices for TeleVue really aren't that high. It's that expectations have changed. If you take the average weekly income for a typical American worker, a TeleVue 82 degree Nagler costs less than a week's income. An Erfle eyepiece in 1965 would have been pretty close to the same percentage of a week's income. Yet, the Nagler is better in every single parameter of eyepiece design and manufacture. In a sense, the Nagler is cheaper, if you think in 1965 dollars and only count inflation. With inflation only, a $50 eyepiece in 1965 would be $359 today. Yet, $359 today gets a vastly superior eyepiece to $50 in 1965. We paid $50 for a lot of eyepieces then. Why doesn't everyone look at paying $359 the same way?

7) And along the way, the cost of aluminum, brass, glass, rare earths, coatings, freight, and energy, and labor costs have all gone up, yet most of those cost increases don't show up in the retail prices.

8) So is it possible for a person who has a modest income to be able to afford to buy a TeleVue eyepiece? Sure, but it's all about priorities. When I was young and couldn't afford a car or even a telephone, I had a top-of-the-line bicycle. And that bicycle cost me a month's income. I was racing, and that was my priority. I have friends who fish and golf and race cars, and they all spend vastly larger sums on their hobbies than I spend on astronomy. My friend who races cars spends the equivalent of an Ethos eyepiece every week on racing. Obviously, his income isn't as limited as some people looking at purchasing a TeleVue eyepiece for whom that expenditure would be hard. But it's his priority. I owned over a hundred eyepieces at a time when my income was 1/5 the level it is now. Now I have 8 for 3 scopes and though they are more expensive per unit, I have a lot less money tied up in eyepieces than I did then. Priorities.

9) I can totally understand why purchasing a top-of-the-line eyepiece might not be a priority in your life. But if you felt like you could afford it, would you? And are there other things in your life you spend more money on than astronomy? Then you are merely prioritizing your purchases. Most people I know who work for a living and have a take home pay could afford to buy TeleVue eyepieces. You might buy fewer of them than the inexpensive brands, and your purchases might take more time. But, telescopes come and go, while eyepieces stick around a lot longer (witness the number of CNers who have piles of them).

10) Last, TeleVue does have some lower-priced eyepieces. They are super high quality 50 degree field eyepieces, just not 82 degree.

There is no question that the inexpensive eyepieces have improved in quality over the last couple decades. And that's a good thing for astronomy. Telescopes have gone down and have improved a lot. We have China to thank for that. But if you look at where the top-of-the-line astronomy stuff comes from, it's Japan, USA, Europe, where labor costs are high, and design quality and standards are still higher. Taiwan is transitioning (or has transitioned) into that market. It's no accident the high-end stuff comes from those places.

Just a little different point of view from some posters.




Great post, Don. I see the "why can't Televue be as affordable as ES?" point being raised all the time here on CN, yet I never see "why can't Nikon be as affordable as Televue?"...


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turtle86
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5841390 - 05/05/13 10:17 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Probably in LARGE part due to different supply chains. btw, everyone is in the business for PROFIT...so in that respect all are of the same nature and no vendor is more altruistic than another that's for sure!




I think its worth making a distinction between manufacturers who are amateur astronomers and got into the business because of their interest in amateur astronomy and those that are just in business as a way to make money.

I think both Uncle Al and Roland Christen could have used their talents elsewhere and made buckloads of money but I think for both of them, what they do is a labor of love.

I also think that without their creativity, willingness to stretch the limits, our choices as amateur astronomers would be much more limited.


Jon




+1 We as amateur astronomers are very fortunate indeed that they aren't in it just for the money.


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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: russell23]
      #5841515 - 05/05/13 11:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:


The only additional point I would make is that I have compared the ES68 line in the field with other eyepieces of similar focal length. Despite the comments from others, I find they have significant problems with stray light and do not produce the contrast in the image of the comparable TeleVues.
Especially when the Moon is up or a really bright star is just outside the field of view.
[I used to give binoculars the "streetlight test"--you put a streetlight just outside the field of view and see if 1) you can tell there is a streetlight outside the field of view and 2) what direction the streetlight lies. Nearly every binocular at every price failed the first test, and many, if not most, failed the second as well. With one particular Leica, when the streetlight was outside the field of view, it simply disappeared from reality. It was the only binocular I ever tested that passed that test with an "Excellent".]
So it is with the ES68s. They're not bad eyepieces in general, and better than most in the price range, but they only get a "poor" rating from me on the "bright star outside the field of view" test. In contrast, the equivalent Panoptics rated much higher. The brightness seen is more an overall field brightness than it is the revelation of fainter stars.




I had just tried this "bright star" test myself 2 nights ago and after reading this I tried it again last night with more scrutiny. I guess I would need to buy a 27mm Pan again to see because I had Vega in and out of the edge of the field multiple times including panning slowly toward it from 5 or 6 degrees away and I saw no difference between the 28mm ES68, 20mm ES68, and 20mm XW. When Vega was just a sliver outside the field stop there was a tiny faint semicircle of glow that reached slightly into the field. I perhaps saw just the slightest brightening of the outer 10% of the field on the side of Vega as I approached Vega - but only when Vega was just outside the field stop.

My skies are excellent dark rural skies so I don't think stray light issues are being hidden by light pollution.

Looks like I've got another clear night so I guess I'll check it out again tonight.

Dave




Last night I did a drift test to compare the 20mm XW and 20mm ES68. I moved Saturn well outside the field and allowed it to drift into the view. I timed how long it took from the first definitive sighting of light from Saturn bleeding into the field until the rings of Saturn first crossed the field stop into view. Both eyepieces were used with the 2" Dakin barlow in front of my star diagonal so the magnification was ~96x. I did multiple trials and then also checked with a 17mm Silvertop. The results were:

17mm Silvertop: 15 seconds
20mm XW: 12 seconds
20mm ES68: 10 seconds

So there was a longer period of time before the planet appeared into the field for which it's light could be seen with the XW than with the ES68. I don't have a 19mm Pan to put against them.

The stray light was not bad for either eyepiece.

Dave


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Sean Puett
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5841554 - 05/05/13 12:14 PM

Apparently you don't do research before spouting incorrect information. TeleVue plossls are corrected to f4. So are ES82s. Since I own both, I would say my assessment is fair not fanboy. If I was a fanboy, I would be more of an ES fanboy anyway. They brought quality eyepieces to a price that made me try them. Then I bought all of them. The 100* aren't quite as good as the 82* in my opinion because they lose too much light. I compared the 9mm to the 8.8 ES82 and the on axis difference was easily seen and better in the eyepiece with less glass, the 8.8. The on axis difference between the 21e and 24mm ES82 is not as obvious.

TeleVue commands a higher price because their products are superior. Being bitter because you can't afford them doesn't changed that fact.


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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: la200o]
      #5841557 - 05/05/13 12:17 PM

Quote:

What are the optical performance aspects that the low cost ep's are better at than the premium ep's?

Bill




Bill,

Specifically I'm referring to the ES68's vs. the XW's and TV Pan's. I have directly compared the 20mm ES68 to the 20mm XW on multiple nights in a row of excellent seeing. Here are how they compare:

Edge of field brightening: 20mm ES68 none, 20mm XW some. Winner 20mm ES68.

Sharpness of stars at edge of field: 20mm ES68 pinpoint sharp to at least 90% of field, mild falloff in last 10%. 20mm XW pinpoint sharp to 75% of field with significant falloff in last 15%. Winner 20mm ES68.

Scatter: See previous post about timed drift test with Saturn. Slight edge to 20mm ES68.

Blackouts: 20mm ES68 none, 20mm XW just a little. Slight edge to 20mm ES68.

Central field star images: Slightly tighter pinpoints in 20mm ES68.

Transmission: Nebulous light slightly richer in 20mm XW. Slight edge to 20mm XW.

Contrast: Central field sky background darkness unbarlowed (40x) was the same in both eyepieces. When barlowed the XW had an edge in contrast.

Comfort: Both eyepieces have enough eye relief to see the full field with glasses on but with the 20mm ES68 I have to push my glasses as high on the bridge of my nose as possible. Slight edge to XW. Without glasses when barlowed slight edge to ES68.

What I decided as the night went on is that the 20mm ES68 destroys the 20mm XW unbarlowed - between the superior edge sharpness and the nice evenly black sky background across the field. However, when barlowed so that the edges of the XW are cleaned up, the edge in transmission shows itself at the smaller exit pupil with slightly brighter nebulous light and slightly better contrast.

So actually having both eyepieces is of benefit. The 20mm ES68 is significantly better at native FL with the XW slightly better when I break out the barlows due to coatings that allow for better transmission. This is not exactly unexpected because some people consider XW's to have the best tranmission of any widefield eyepiece.

As for the 28mm ES68. I have not done a direct comparison with the 27mm Panoptic. But without question the 28mm ES68 is far superior in terms of pincushion distortion - which the 27mm Pan is loaded with. While others dispute it, for the time I had the 27mm Pan I felt that it was losing light. Maybe I had an older sample and coatings are better now, but BillP reported similar results when he compared the 24mm ES68 to the 24mm Pan. Jim Barnett reported on this thread that he feels the Pans have better transmission.

I'm not saying the ES68's are the "better" eyepiece. I'm just pointing to performance characteristics which in some cases are preferable and superior in the ES68's as compared to certain premium eyepieces. If the performance characteristics the ES68's are better at are important to an observer, then the ES68's might be the better way to go.

Dave


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Sean Puett
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5841562 - 05/05/13 12:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

TeleVue plossls are corrected to f4.

--------------------
Sean




Really? Please SHOW me in a real scope.

Quote:

I don't think any plossls are corrected for f4 scopes.
I could be wrong!
Clear Skies
Sam




They aren't, and TeleVue Plossls are not either. TV does make good EP's, but the 19mm and 22mm Pan's are a mess at the edges in a fast scope compared to other offerings.

The 22mm Vixen LVW has way better edge correction in a fast scope w/o a Paracorr than both the 19mm and 22m Pans. Heck, even the 17mm Vixen LVW has way better edge correction in a fast scope w/o a Paracorr than the 19mm Pan. Not ALL TeleVue eyepieces are corrected down to F/4 !

I tried a 35mm Panoptic for the third time last Thursday and I finally came to the conclusion that it had excellent correction, but horrible eye placement, kidney beans all over the place and had edge of field brightening in my fast 10" F/4.7 reflector. I then tried it in a friend's F/8.3 refractor and it was excellent......so the saying that TV EP's are corrected down to F/4 is A MYTH. IMO, the 34mm ES is eons better in a fast scope. I am looking forward to trying out the 28mm ES that is on the way and I bet 10 to 1 that it out-does the 27mm TV Panoptic in the same department I just mentioned except for correction.

Quote:

I own both ES and TeleVue eyepieces. I used to complain about how much TV eyepieces cost but, they keep selling. If they weren't, TV would have to lower the price but, they sell enough it seems.
The first purchase that changed my opinion was the paracorr. It has excellent fit and finish and it works EXACTLY as advertised. How many astro ads promise far more than they deliver? Too many. Anyway this item works very well. Then trying some Nagler and Ethos eyepieces at star parties and comparing them to my ES eyepieces made me appreciate the quality of TeleVue eyepieces as well. Then I bought a TeleVue refractor. Again excellent quality and performance which sold me on Al Nagler's vision of extreme widefield views with larger aperture than what was available before. Flat field 4"f5.4 &5"f5.2 are two of my favorite refractors made today. They compliment large reflectors perfectly and give wonderful uberwide views.
Star parties are great for pointing your future purchases in the right direction. I got to try some Naglers and compare them to my ES82s. I also got to use some ethos and took note of the differences. ES eyepieces are great values and are the best that I have used at their price point.
TeleVue eyepieces are an obvious improvement though and the extra polishing and attention to detail costs money. TeleVue also offers repair services if you drop one or scratch a lens or buy one with damage. Plus if you call with a question, you could easily be talking with an amateur astronomy legend. Service like that is another reason I like to deal with the great American companies like starlight, moonlite, and TeleVue. They have better customer service than almost any other business including outside of this hobby.
I almost forgot to say that TeleVue eyepieces are far better than ES during the day. Try that comparison yourself if you doubt.

--------------------
Sean




There are many TeleVue "fanboiz" here. I can name quite a few, but I won't name names to save a war from erupting.

TV makes great Ep's, I agree, but TV isn't all roses either.

Now all of the TV "fanboiz" will go ballistic on me for saying what I just said, BUT IT IS TRUE AND HARD TO SWALLOW.

Cheers,




Coma is not an eyepiece issue. A paracorr has nothing to do with correcting astigmatism. ANY eyepiece put in the focused of a sub f6 newtonian without a paracorr will have some edge issues. Coma comes from the telescope not the eyepiece. Similarly, a paracorr will not fix eyepiece induced astigmatism. Eyepieces also don't correct for field curvature (in most cases). TeleVue uses an f4 refractor to test their eyepieces during development and their website says that their plossls are corrected to f4.


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russell23
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5841580 - 05/05/13 12:30 PM

Quote:

Quote:


My point is just that they have made the choices they made - reputation of producing premium eyepieces, goal of developing new lines (Ethos) that push the envelope, limitation of resources as a smaller company. I get all that and don't argue that they should have done anything differently. But they could have done it differently and just as they have been pushing the market wider and wider and better and better - so too have the low cost options been improving.




TeleVue has always offered a variety of choices and for a given field of view, be it 50 degrees, 68-70 degrees, 82 degrees or 100 degrees, they are arguably the best at what they do.




"Best at what they do" is arguable because it depends upon what performance characteristics the observer values the most. For some observers they are the best. For others not so much. Which TV eyepiece line? I can't stand the pincushion of the Pans - but that was a design choice made to get to their objective. For me the ES68 is much better. Which FL within the specified line? I absolutely loved the 10mm Delos but didn't like the 17.3mm Delos. Is TV the best at eyeguard adjustment mechanism? Or how about locking screws on barlows and powermates?


Quote:

I am not sure how they could have done it differently and maintained their quality approach.

Jon




That is why I am referring to the fact that they made "choices". TV chose not to market a lower cost widefield line. What reasons would be pure speculation and certainly are justifiable. It is their company and they can market what they want and not market what they don't want. But that doesn't change the fact that they could have made a different choice instead of abandoning the low cost widefield market to Celestron and Meade.

I already gave some reasons in an earlier post why I would speculate it might not have made sense for TV to go that route. But the success of ES shows that there is a huge segment of the market that was hungering for quality low cost widefield's. And it is a good thing for amateur astronomy because a large number of people no longer have to figure out how to scrape together the $ to afford a single 82 deg or 100 deg TV eyepiece.

Dave


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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: russell23]
      #5841615 - 05/05/13 12:49 PM

There is another test for scatter I read about on the Astro-Physics UG. Do a search for the Sidewalk Test. Here is another link to it.

I was thinking it would be kind of fun to set up a controlled test with my eyepiece collection - a sort of single elimination tournament. That is, draw up up a set of brackets just like the NCAA basketball tournament and randomly seed the brackets with my eyepiece collection. Do the Sidewalk Test on each pairing and see which two advances to the Finals.


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Scanning4Comets
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5841654 - 05/05/13 01:11 PM

Quote:

Apparently you don't do research before spouting incorrect information. TeleVue plossls are corrected to f4. So are ES82s. Since I own both, I would say my assessment is fair not fanboy. If I was a fanboy, I would be more of an ES fanboy anyway. They brought quality eyepieces to a price that made me try them. Then I bought all of them. The 100* aren't quite as good as the 82* in my opinion because they lose too much light. I compared the 9mm to the 8.8 ES82 and the on axis difference was easily seen and better in the eyepiece with less glass, the 8.8. The on axis difference between the 21e and 24mm ES82 is not as obvious.

TeleVue commands a higher price because their products are superior. Being bitter because you can't afford them doesn't changed that fact.

--------------------
Sean




Bitter? Can't afford TV?

I've owned quite a few TeleVue eyepieces myself. You should do some research on what others have owned in the past before Sputtering off yourself. Try not to get too angry, after all, they are only eyepieces, and not people's entire lives.

Calm down there Terminator.

Quote:

Coma is not an eyepiece issue. A paracorr has nothing to do with correcting astigmatism. ANY eyepiece put in the focused of a sub f6 newtonian without a paracorr will have some edge issues. Coma comes from the telescope not the eyepiece. Similarly, a paracorr will not fix eyepiece induced astigmatism. Eyepieces also don't correct for field curvature (in most cases). TeleVue uses an f4 refractor to test their eyepieces during development and their website says that their plossls are corrected to f4.

--------------------
Sean




Really? Oh wow, thanks for the clarification...I wasn't aware of that,

....Obviously.

So just because you read that, you believe it all? Guess what? I have 500 million dollars, I own land all over the world, and I speak every language known to man. You just read it, so it is true.

I was merely stating a fact that the 22mm Vixen LVW smacked the 22mm pan upside the head and you lost it. Try not to get too mad bro. I am not trolling you either, because trolling isn't a part of CN. I just stated a fact or two and you flipped out.


The 22mm Vixen LVW has way better edge correction in a fast scope w/o a Paracorr than both the 19mm and 22m Pans. Heck, even the 17mm Vixen LVW has way better edge correction in a fast scope w/o a Paracorr than the 19mm Pan. Not ALL TeleVue eyepieces are corrected down to F/4 !

Quote:

I tried a 35mm Panoptic for the third time last Thursday and I finally came to the conclusion that it had excellent correction, but horrible eye placement, kidney beans all over the place and had edge of field brightening in my fast 10" F/4.7 reflector. I then tried it in a friend's F/8.3 refractor and it was excellent......so the saying that TV EP's are corrected down to F/4 is A MYTH. IMO, the 34mm ES is eons better in a fast scope. I am looking forward to trying out the 28mm ES that is on the way and I bet 10 to 1 that it out-does the 27mm TV Panoptic in the same department I just mentioned except for correction.




WHERE DID I EVEN MENTION COMA HERE EINSTEIN?

Calm down there dude, it's not worth the stress.

Cheers,


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planet earth
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Sean Puett]
      #5841661 - 05/05/13 01:17 PM

"Coma is not an eyepiece issue. A paracorr has nothing to do with correcting astigmatism. ANY eyepiece put in the focused of a sub f6 newtonian without a paracorr will have some edge issues. Coma comes from the telescope not the eyepiece. Similarly, a paracorr will not fix eyepiece induced astigmatism. Eyepieces also don't correct for field curvature (in most cases). TeleVue uses an f4 refractor to test their eyepieces during development and their website says that their plossls are corrected to f4."

No argument over the above Sean, but me not being a eyepiece expert, (corrected to f4) doesn't really tell me much.
Maybe other brand Plossls are corrected to f4?
Either way it's a non issue.
Clear Skies
Sam


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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: planet earth]
      #5841741 - 05/05/13 02:00 PM

Like em, buy them.. Don't like em, get something else but don't complain about the price.

The OP asked a perfectly reasonable question and a few people tried to give a logical explanations, whereas most chose to "fight it out".

I for one was happy to read what jrbarnett, Don and Jon Isaacs had to say about it. The replies were spot on regarding the actual question asked and they were educational as well.

Just leave it at that folks. We are all into this hobby for the sheer pleasure of it!


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nicknacknock
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: planet earth]
      #5841742 - 05/05/13 02:00 PM

Like em, buy them.. Don't like em, get something else but don't complain about the price.

The OP asked a perfectly reasonable question and a few people tried to give a logical explanations, whereas most chose to "fight it out".

I for one was happy to read what jrbarnett, Don and Jon Isaacs had to say about it. The replies were spot on regarding the actual question asked and they were educational as well.

Just leave it at that folks. We are all into this hobby for the sheer pleasure of it!


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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: russell23]
      #5841744 - 05/05/13 02:00 PM

Dave, I can see why they don't market an economy line because it would take away from their sales in other areas. When I speak about TV eyepieces, I can't comment or defend panoptics because I haven't used them. Same goes with Delos. I would like to try some Delos because their website says that they took lessons from the ethos and used them in the design of the Delos. The ethos I have used seem to have extremely good throughput and no color tone that I detect. If that same clarity and "invisible" glass technology (my words) were used in an eyepiece with less elements, the results could be very nice. I do believe that the Delos line is priced pretty well. Naglers as well. Ethos are high but, still within reach if you want to save up for them.
ES are more instant gratification. They are quality and affordable enough so you can have a set quickly. As far as ES, I have never used the 68*. I didn't see the point because the 82* are so good and the price is roughly the same. Anyway, these keep coming up in comparisons and I can't comment or compare them. I am always going to keep my ES82s. They aren't that great for resale and they are great performers so to me, it would make more sense to sell my TV eyepieces should I need money.

I can't afford a tak 6" refractor. They would sell more if they were $2000. Does that make them over priced? AP sells more scopes than they can make and they charge an amazing amount of money for them. Again they sell so the price is not too high. Gso makes focusers for $100. Does that make moonlite or feathertouch overpriced? It all depends on who you ask. I thought my Gso focuser was fine until I bought my feathertouch upgrade for my refractor. 3 months later, I had to have a new focuser on my dob because I just couldn't stand the GSO anymore. As you acquire better gear, your tolerance for imperfections gets reduced. You also notice any improvement over what you are used to easier. When I started my 2 favorite eyepieces were the GSO 30mm supervised and meade 4000 swa 20mm. I now find them unusable. I also used to complain about how much Naglers cost and thought that everyone in this hobby must be rich to afford them.
Part of why ethos are worth more is that you can replace multiple eyepieces with one. I could replace my 18mm and 24mm ES82 with my 21e. I could also replace my 11mm &14mm with my 13e. Add to shorter focal lengths and I would have a very usable set with only 4 eyepieces. TeleVue does not have a monopoly on this. You could do the same with the ES100 line once the 5.5 comes out.


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Sean Puett
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5841798 - 05/05/13 02:43 PM

You called me a fanboy and quoted my statements. I am not the angry one. I didn't start name calling or disputing TeleVue's statements with nothing to back it up. Besides as already stated, I have never even used pans. With the coma statement, comparing edge correction in a newtonian without a paracorr means nothing. There are too many variables that to say that one eyepiece has better edge correction. That is like comparing edge correction in a fast refractor with horrible field curvature.

I do agree that the last price increase by TeleVue was a bit excessive but, that doesn't mean that their eyepieces are all of the sudden not as good. I am a machinist so I am not rich but, it took 2.25 work days for what I paid for the 21e. 1.35work days for the 13e. In reality, I sold a bunch of gear I didn't use anymore and got a moonlite focuser and a 21e with no additional money.
I have no reason to doubt TeleVue's statements because every one I have read was accurate. So when they say that their plossls are corrected to f4, I believe them. ES says their eyepieces are corrected to f4 as well. They must be lying as well. Normally it means they correct for astigmatism to f4. There is enough inaccurate information on this site already. Why add to it because of personal preference? For an example the achro vs apo endless debate or the CO making newtonian all but useless. Threads like, "5" apo spanks 12" newtonian" are repeated over and over. What happens when people read this stuff and spend their limited money expecting to have the same results? Best case, they get angry. Worst, they quit the hobby.


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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5841910 - 05/05/13 03:49 PM

While you replied to my post, you quoted another person in the reply, which could create the impression I made comments which I did not.

For the record, please note I made no comments whatsoever about being bitter.

Perhaps its time.


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Sean Puett
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5841937 - 05/05/13 04:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Apparently you don't do research before spouting incorrect information. TeleVue plossls are corrected to f4. So are ES82s. Since I own both, I would say my assessment is fair not fanboy. If I was a fanboy, I would be more of an ES fanboy anyway. They brought quality eyepieces to a price that made me try them. Then I bought all of them. The 100* aren't quite as good as the 82* in my opinion because they lose too much light. I compared the 9mm to the 8.8 ES82 and the on axis difference was easily seen and better in the eyepiece with less glass, the 8.8. The on axis difference between the 21e and 24mm ES82 is not as obvious.

TeleVue commands a higher price because their products are superior. Being bitter because you can't afford them doesn't changed that fact.

--------------------
Sean




Bitter? Can't afford TV?

I've owned quite a few TeleVue eyepieces myself. You should do some research on what others have owned in the past before Sputtering off yourself. Try not to get too angry, after all, they are only eyepieces, and not people's entire lives.

Calm down there Terminator.

Quote:

Coma is not an eyepiece issue. A paracorr has nothing to do with correcting astigmatism. ANY eyepiece put in the focused of a sub f6 newtonian without a paracorr will have some edge issues. Coma comes from the telescope not the eyepiece. Similarly, a paracorr will not fix eyepiece induced astigmatism. Eyepieces also don't correct for field curvature (in most cases). TeleVue uses an f4 refractor to test their eyepieces during development and their website says that their plossls are corrected to f4.

--------------------
Sean




Really? Oh wow, thanks for the clarification...I wasn't aware of that,

....Obviously.

So just because you read that, you believe it all? Guess what? I have 500 million dollars, I own land all over the world, and I speak every language known to man. You just read it, so it is true.

I was merely stating a fact that the 22mm Vixen LVW smacked the 22mm pan upside the head and you lost it. Try not to get too mad bro. I am not trolling you either, because trolling isn't a part of CN. I just stated a fact or two and you flipped out.


The 22mm Vixen LVW has way better edge correction in a fast scope w/o a Paracorr than both the 19mm and 22m Pans. Heck, even the 17mm Vixen LVW has way better edge correction in a fast scope w/o a Paracorr than the 19mm Pan. Not ALL TeleVue eyepieces are corrected down to F/4 !

Quote:

I tried a 35mm Panoptic for the third time last Thursday and I finally came to the conclusion that it had excellent correction, but horrible eye placement, kidney beans all over the place and had edge of field brightening in my fast 10" F/4.7 reflector. I then tried it in a friend's F/8.3 refractor and it was excellent......so the saying that TV EP's are corrected down to F/4 is A MYTH. IMO, the 34mm ES is eons better in a fast scope. I am looking forward to trying out the 28mm ES that is on the way and I bet 10 to 1 that it out-does the 27mm TV Panoptic in the same department I just mentioned except for correction.




WHERE DID I EVEN MENTION COMA HERE EINSTEIN?

Calm down there dude, it's not worth the stress.

Cheers,




Commenting on eyepiece performance with or without paracorr brings coma into your argument. Since you are so angry, it seems that you are the fanboy.
I never said all TeleVue eyepieces were corrected to f4. I do not know whether they are or not. TeleVue plossls are corrected to f4 is what I said. I did mention that they use an f4 refractor to test eyepiece designs because they do.
The OP asked about why a 21 ethos cost so much more than a ES100 20mm. I answered with my point of view since I own both then you got all butt hurt and started calling names like a child. I pointed out TeleVue plossls because everyone forgets about them and they are nice eyepiece that are affordable for everyone.
This thread has outlived its usefulness now.


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russell23
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Sean Puett]
      #5842237 - 05/05/13 06:50 PM

Quote:

Dave, I can see why they don't market an economy line because it would take away from their sales in other areas.




Sean, I agree with this reasoning. I think I mentioned something similar in an earlier post. To do a quick reset here I think some people may think I am arguing TV eyepieces are overpriced. That is not what I am saying. I'm responding to the notion that because TV eyepieces are more expensive, they are better than ES eyepieces in all optical performance characteristics. All I am saying is that when you choose an eyepiece, I don't think you should assume that the more expensive eyepiece will be better for you. You need to evaluate the performance characteristics of each eyepiece and pick the eyepiece will better suit your needs. My comparison of the 20m XW and 20mm ES68 above is an example of what I mean. The less expensive 20mm ES68 wins in most performance characteristics, but the 20mm XW does a little better in transmission and contrast when barlowed.

Quote:

When I speak about TV eyepieces, I can't comment or defend panoptics because I haven't used them. Same goes with Delos. I would like to try some Delos because their website says that they took lessons from the ethos and used them in the design of the Delos. The ethos I have used seem to have extremely good throughput and no color tone that I detect. If that same clarity and "invisible" glass technology (my words) were used in an eyepiece with less elements, the results could be very nice.




That was exactly what I saw with the 10mm Delos. I can't think of any performance characteristics I would rate it down on. Essentially perfect. But then I made the mistaken judgement that I could assume the 17.3mm Delos would be exactly as good and that I would use it as a low mag finder and then barlow it to higher magnifications. So I sold the 10mm Delos for a 17.3mm Delos which I did not like nearly as much as the 10mm in certain performance characteristics (Had some blackouts, had some edge brightening, lost sharpness near the edge, wierd barrel effect with light near the edge).

But others love the 17.3mm Delos - again my theme is pick your performance traits that matter most. If I had it to do over again I would've just kept the 10mm Delos.

Quote:

ES are more instant gratification. They are quality and affordable enough so you can have a set quickly. As far as ES, I have never used the 68*. I didn't see the point because the 82* are so good and the price is roughly the same. Anyway, these keep coming up in comparisons and I can't comment or compare them. I am always going to keep my ES82s. They aren't that great for resale and they are great performers so to me, it would make more sense to sell my TV eyepieces should I need money.




To continue my "reset": regarding my comments about TV offering a low cost widefield option. I'm not saying I think TV should have offered a low cost option. As I said, I can see why TV would have good reasons not to do so. But some people feel that ES is stealing sales from TV. My point is simply that TV has never chosen to market low widefield eyepiece and what has always been a possible consequence of that is that eventually someone would put out low cost lines with similar specs to the TV lines that would be good enough that people might prefer them to TV for more reasons than just cost. That was always a risk in TV's decision not to market low cost widefields. ES finally has exposed that risk. But ES also has a huge advantage with lower labor costs.

Dave


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Sean Puett
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5842289 - 05/05/13 07:26 PM

Quote:

While you replied to my post, you quoted another person in the reply, which could create the impression I made comments which I did not.

For the record, please note I made no comments whatsoever about being bitter.

Perhaps its time.



I quoted the whole post and apologize if your quote was included. This has gone on long enough though, I agree. I may have just used quick reply and it just replies to the last post. Again sorry for any confusion.


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Sean Puett
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: russell23]
      #5842311 - 05/05/13 07:39 PM

The first part of that post was directed toward you Dave. The rest was just explaining my thoughts on my ES experience. I am grateful that they had their sale and brought their eyepiece selection low enough in price that I was willing to take a chance on them a few years ago. I had been burned by false claims and cheap widefields and didn't really trust any advertising at the time. It was a pleasant surprise to find that they were very good and not more hype.
I like the waterproof idea too. That is one thing that makes me nervous about my ethos. There are alot of elements to get moisture inside. The moisture may be scared by the size of the 21e though.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: BillP]
      #5842472 - 05/05/13 09:16 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I think both Uncle Al and Roland Christen could have used their talents elsewhere and made buckloads of money but I think for both of them, what they do is a labor of love.




I think they are both doing just fine in the money department and neither is "just getting by" I also don't see the labor-of-love aspect as they both are good businessmen and good professionals in their chosen fields and doing quite better than well compared to the median standard I'd say. Of course it's always good when a business professional also enjoys their work from a hobby perspective also. But when the rubber hits the road, its usually on a dollar.




I suspect our attitudes towards others are partially projections of our own personal attitudes. To my eye, both Roland and Al are doing OK financially but could have done much better had they made other choices. Both have taken the high road when it comes to maintaining quality.

At this point in his life, I believe Roland is still finishing each and every A-P objective, that's hardly the choice of someone trying to make as much money as possible.

Jon


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astro_baby
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5842959 - 05/06/13 06:04 AM

Well you know theres an old saying....give a man a job he loves and he will never have to work again.



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helpwanted
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: astro_baby]
      #5846692 - 05/07/13 09:41 PM

Televue EPs are worth every penny.
I spent much more money on trying other eyepieces, only to sell them at a loss later. When you factor in buying and trying other EPs, just buying the Televues to start with, will SAVE you money.


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GeneT
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5846842 - 05/07/13 10:58 PM

Jon,
I won't recopy your entire post, but in my opinion, you nailed it!
Gene


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Wmacky
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: GeneT]
      #5868653 - 05/18/13 02:10 AM

And there we go. No more learning. Wonderful..........

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Wmacky
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: helpwanted]
      #5868657 - 05/18/13 02:14 AM

Quote:

Televue EPs are worth every penny.
I spent much more money on trying other eyepieces, only to sell them at a loss later. When you factor in buying and trying other EPs, just buying the Televues to start with, will SAVE you money.




And there it is. The "TV is the only eyepiece worth owning" statement.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: helpwanted]
      #5868792 - 05/18/13 05:03 AM

Quote:

Televue EPs are worth every penny.
I spent much more money on trying other eyepieces, only to sell them at a loss later. When you factor in buying and trying other EPs, just buying the Televues to start with, will SAVE you money.




The implications are that you learned nothing in the process of buying and selling whatever other eyepieces you purchased and that someone else would come to the same conclusions that you did.

I know that in the process of buying and sometimes selling a variety of eyepieces, I learned a lot about how to see and what I liked.

As a fast refractor, fast Newtonian guy, TeleVue eyepieces are well suited for use with my scopes but there are plenty of people who choose other equally good eyepieces.

Jon


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GOLGO13
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Re: Cost of Televue Eyepieces new [Re: linux]
      #5869042 - 05/18/13 09:40 AM

Was looking at a 2004 Night Sky magazine for some prices. Saw the Naglers were quite a bit cheaper back then. They ranged from $240 to $530 (the excellent 31 nagler being $530). Pentax XWs at that time were $330-530. Meade UWA (the equivalent to the ES 82s) were $199 to $449. Meade SWA (the equivalent to the ES 68s) were $179 to $399.

Ok ... so what does this all mean? TV eyepieces have gone up a bit since that timeframe. Those of us around here have witnessed a few of those increases. Back in 2004/2005 prices were much closer between these eyepieces. I'd almost say the current ES prices are a bit low, but I also have not looked through any of them (but I do have a Meade 6.7UWA and a Meade 24mm SWA).

Personally I have found Televue eyepieces to always be quite good. In general I've found the equivalent Meade SWA and UWA to be pretty close...better in some aspects but worse in others. I always thought of them as 90% as good depending on the eyepiece + or - 5.


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