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Joad
Wordsmith
*****

Reged: 03/22/05

Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: deSitter]
      #5904676 - 06/05/13 08:44 PM


No, I have better things to do (which at the moment is the creation of the eighth edition of my textbook). And so should you. Rather than trying to convert me, why don't you just do your work and convince your fellow mathematical physicists through equations rather than hand waving?


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Otto Piechowski
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/20/05

Loc: Lexington, KY
Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: Joad]
      #5904699 - 06/05/13 08:59 PM

I just saw an advertisement on Public Television in which a student lauded the advantages of using Virtual Physics Laboratory (online).

What are the chances (realistically and seriously) of running across anomalies while using virtual laboratory study tools?

Otto


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deSitter
Still in Old School


Reged: 12/09/04

Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: Joad]
      #5904755 - 06/05/13 09:32 PM

Quote:


No, I have better things to do (which at the moment is the creation of the eighth edition of my textbook). And so should you. Rather than trying to convert me, why don't you just do your work and convince your fellow mathematical physicists through equations rather than hand waving?




This isn't about me, why are you trying to make it so? So what if I find the academic world contemptible? Science progresses when anomalies are recognized, and preconceived notions are abandoned.

As for "my fellow physicists"? You mean Cooperstock? Yes, everyone is reading his work. (Well, they should be at least.)

-drl


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deSitter
Still in Old School


Reged: 12/09/04

Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5904761 - 06/05/13 09:34 PM

Quote:

I just saw an advertisement on Public Television in which a student lauded the advantages of using Virtual Physics Laboratory (online).

What are the chances (realistically and seriously) of running across anomalies while using virtual laboratory study tools?

Otto




I have a friend who teaches high school physics, and has for nearly 30 years. The stories he tells of the corruption of science culture in the schools is sickening. He was hoping to make it until retirement but it has become almost unbearable to deal with "virtual physics lab" and other stupidities of the modern world. And the students get worse, and worse, and worse.

edit - to answer your question directly - none. There cannot be anomalies when you play god. Anomalies mean there are not only unknown answers, there are also unknown questions. That apparently is why people get offended these days when anomalies arise. It means they aren't smart enough to even ask the right question.

-drl


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Otto Piechowski
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/20/05

Loc: Lexington, KY
Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: deSitter]
      #5904902 - 06/05/13 10:43 PM

And, that was what I was thinking, too, drl; i.e. that the use of virtual laboratories completely rules out encountering anomalies.

But, I would like to hear others thoughts on this issue which I have now raised within this thread. The question(s) is(are); can anomalies be encountered through the use (additional use) of virtual laboratory tools...or, perhaps, are the encounters with anomalies not all that important within real science?

What are the thoughts of you real scientists among us?

Otto


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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5904971 - 06/05/13 11:15 PM

Virtual laboratories are for teaching known physics, not for research on the edges of it. It can still lead to unexpected results that add to our total knowledge, just as Deep Blue, for example, can come up with unexpected chess moves to win a game. But it can't uncover new basic physics any more than Deep Blue can invent 3D chess.

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Qwickdraw
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 03/03/12

Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5912882 - 06/10/13 11:49 AM

Just came across this one while reading about The Great Attractor

"The Great Attractor is a gravity anomaly in intergalactic space within the range of the Centaurus Supercluster that reveals the existence of a localized concentration of mass equivalent to tens of thousands of galaxies"

I guess at this point it is just a theory that it is a merged galactic mass. It seems odd to me in the ~13 billion years so much mass could collect.


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ColoHank
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 06/07/07

Loc: western Colorado
Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: deSitter]
      #5913044 - 06/10/13 01:02 PM

Quote:

Science progresses when anomalies are recognized, and preconceived notions are abandoned.





Not all scientific advances are revolutionary. Some, and probably most, are evolutionary. As Newton wrote, "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."


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deSitter
Still in Old School


Reged: 12/09/04

Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: ColoHank]
      #5913048 - 06/10/13 01:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Science progresses when anomalies are recognized, and preconceived notions are abandoned.





Not all scientific advances are revolutionary. Some, and probably most, are evolutionary. As Newton wrote, "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."




+10 !

I try to make this point all the time. The idea that physics is a series of revolutions is utterly wrong. Even something as basic as quantum theory emerged naturally from the phenomena.

-drl


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Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5913338 - 06/10/13 03:15 PM

Quote:

I just saw an advertisement on Public Television in which a student lauded the advantages of using Virtual Physics Laboratory (online).

What are the chances (realistically and seriously) of running across anomalies while using virtual laboratory study tools?

Otto





LOL How can you program in what you don't yet know?


Advancement comes from observation. An anomaly is when that observation either does not fit into a present theory or is so unexpected it has no theoretical support at all.

I believe low temp superconductivity was an example of the latter. When it was first observed it was so far beyond any existing theory of superconductivity that they literally had to formulate a new theory to explain it.

Pesse (anomalies advance scientific understanding) Mist


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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: Pess]
      #5913621 - 06/10/13 05:25 PM

A possible Anomaly coming in the near future. Imagine it's 2025. 30-60 meters telescope are now working and they can study the atmosphere of exoplanets during transits in front of their mother star or by other means. They look for oxygen, ozone, methane, some green signature etc. A couple of erath-like planets located in the habitable zone are probed this way. A first one, then 2, 3, 4 explanets: no oxygen, no ozone, no green photosynthetic signature, just CO2 and Nitrogen. A fifth planet candidate has a bit of methane, but it's inconclusive. What do we do for this one, 'our' only hope so far?
A $1 billion inteferometer is build on the moon for this project, since astronauts are already there with nothing mnuch to do anyways. The fifth planet is analyzed with a nanoarcsec of resolution and...an ocean world, anoxic is discovered. Nothing conclusive and the case is abandonned.

Then the size sample reach 12 planets, all located in the habitable zone, but no evidence of any oxygen or any other signature of life is discovered.

Anomaly? I say yes in the current framework of Life apparition.
But then comes the 13th planet....


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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: dickbill]
      #5927404 - 06/18/13 12:10 PM

This topic is one of the most interesting, imo.
However, I wish it wouln't be confined to astronomical issues. If we accept to speak truely, without using the forked tongue of the snake, in all fairness we must be aware that soon or later, we'll hit the wall of political correctness, i.e with private email etc.
I got 3 or 4 private mails already (i bet drl beats me on that easily) and i don't wish to irate the establishment further, but this is inevitable when you speak about anomalies (hmmm, isn't that one anomaly in itself?).

A nice one to start: given Consciousness infinite ability to understand almost everything from biological to cosmological, from the past to the future, we would expect its algorithmic complexity (the shortest program that can produce consciousness) to be accordingly infinite.
That is, IF we didn't know how 'consciousness' came to be, and had to guess, based on the above definition of 'infinite awareness', the shortest code to produce it, we would probably guess that an infinitively long, or complex, program would be necessary. Yet, we know that only 3 billions nucleotides in the human dna produce Consciousness. That's some sort of an anomaly isn't?
Even if we consider the ever increasing number of human beings on earth, 7 billions, that is still a finite number.

So, either the algorithm complexity to produce 'consciousness' is not infinite, or the limitation to fit it inside 3 billions nucleotides is beside the point. Some may say Time is relevant: with infinite time we'll know everything. Other, like in 'The Fifth Element' (Eric Besson's movie) believes that "Time is NOT relevant, only Life matters". Which perhaps means that the Operator for Life contains an infinite. Any opinion?


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CounterWeight
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Palo alto, CA.
Re: Let's talk about anomalies new [Re: dickbill]
      #5927593 - 06/18/13 01:59 PM

No one commented on my satellite example which I feel for a space topic is a great start? It was encountered as a sort of accident (and I'm unsure how much a part security and classification and cold war paranoia may have affected it's release to general public) but I feel it should weigh heavily. This as say opposed to those found through rigor in the lab like those of low temperature - cryogenics.

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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Let's talk about anomalies [Re: dickbill]
      #5928318 - 06/18/13 09:45 PM

Quote:

This topic is one of the most interesting, imo.
However, I wish it wouln't be confined to astronomical issues. If we accept to speak truely, without using the forked tongue of the snake, in all fairness we must be aware that soon or later, we'll hit the wall of political correctness, i.e with private email etc.
I got 3 or 4 private mails already (i bet drl beats me on that easily) and i don't wish to irate the establishment further, but this is inevitable when you speak about anomalies (hmmm, isn't that one anomaly in itself?).

A nice one to start: given Consciousness infinite ability to understand almost everything from biological to cosmological, from the past to the future, we would expect its algorithmic complexity (the shortest program that can produce consciousness) to be accordingly infinite.
That is, IF we didn't know how 'consciousness' came to be, and had to guess, based on the above definition of 'infinite awareness', the shortest code to produce it, we would probably guess that an infinitively long, or complex, program would be necessary. Yet, we know that only 3 billions nucleotides in the human dna produce Consciousness. That's some sort of an anomaly isn't?
Even if we consider the ever increasing number of human beings on earth, 7 billions, that is still a finite number.

So, either the algorithm complexity to produce 'consciousness' is not infinite, or the limitation to fit it inside 3 billions nucleotides is beside the point. Some may say Time is relevant: with infinite time we'll know everything. Other, like in 'The Fifth Element' (Eric Besson's movie) believes that "Time is NOT relevant, only Life matters". Which perhaps means that the Operator for Life contains an infinite. Any opinion?




Not sure where you get the idea that consciousness involves or requires any capacity for infinity. All of us conscious beings are quite limited in our comprehension potential.

In fact, I'll bet if you really look at the grand scheme of things, you'll find it's finite all the way down.


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