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Equipment Discussions >> Cats & Casses

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cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/26/12

Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: Spacetravelerx]
      #6005802 - 08/04/13 03:26 AM

Can we keep the xenophobia down please chaps.

And less of the vendor bashing please. Calling Celestron names is totally irrelevant.

The bashing does, I think, illustrate part of the reason that Meade ended up in the situation they are in now. They saw Celestron as their only competition and went for them exclusively. Meanwhile the other manufacturers carrying on developing products, taking market share. People like iOptron, Synta, GSO, ES, IStar and so on.

The manner in which Meade competed with Celestron was not good. Rather than trying to improve their product so people would want to buy it they tried to increase Celestron's costs, to make theirs worse. They blew $15M on this.

If they had succeeded Celestron's costs would have had to go up and Meade would not have needed to reduce theirs. This would have made things from both more expensive. We would all have paid for this.

I really can't understand why you are all getting so emotional about a company that, to be blunt, tried to force you all to pay more for your equipment. They thought that they could get more than $15M extra out of us. Fortunately they failed.

I wonder if the polarisation we are seeing isn't an offshoot of American politics, where there's an us and them and all that matters is beating them.

Quite honesty I think that Meade's demise will be a good thing. We may get an environment where manufacturers compete on quality and price.

Chris


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derangedhermit
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/07/09

Loc: USA
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: Spacetravelerx]
      #6005902 - 08/04/13 06:47 AM

Quote:

Anyways, I personally think Meade will weather this storm.



What exactly do you mean when you say that?


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KevH
sage
*****

Reged: 03/08/10

Loc: Maine
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: cn register 5]
      #6005934 - 08/04/13 08:03 AM

Quote:

Can we keep the xenophobia down please chaps.

And less of the vendor bashing please. Calling Celestron names is totally irrelevant.

The bashing does, I think, illustrate part of the reason that Meade ended up in the situation they are in now. They saw Celestron as their only competition and went for them exclusively. Meanwhile the other manufacturers carrying on developing products, taking market share. People like iOptron, Synta, GSO, ES, IStar and so on.

The manner in which Meade competed with Celestron was not good. Rather than trying to improve their product so people would want to buy it they tried to increase Celestron's costs, to make theirs worse. They blew $15M on this.

If they had succeeded Celestron's costs would have had to go up and Meade would not have needed to reduce theirs. This would have made things from both more expensive. We would all have paid for this.

I really can't understand why you are all getting so emotional about a company that, to be blunt, tried to force you all to pay more for your equipment. They thought that they could get more than $15M extra out of us. Fortunately they failed.

I wonder if the polarisation we are seeing isn't an offshoot of American politics, where there's an us and them and all that matters is beating them.

Quite honesty I think that Meade's demise will be a good thing. We may get an environment where manufacturers compete on quality and price.

Chris




Where in this thread did anyone call Celestron names? They were mentioned but were hardly called any names. Meade is taken to task on a daily basis around here.... some of it justified but some of it is absurd and borders on trollish. You never see these kinds of posts regarding Celestron. There is a definite Celestron slant to the Cats and Casses forum... If you can't see it then you probably are a Celestron fan.


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Starman27Moderator
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 01/29/06

Loc: Illinois, Iowa
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: KevH]
      #6005969 - 08/04/13 08:57 AM

Here I am again. Your friendly neighborhood moderator. Let's try and see if we can keep on the main topic Meade's future and or current position. Of course, maintain a civil and thoughtful manner considering our mutual respect for each other and also the detrimental effect some comments may have on the current Meade employees who are going through stressful and uncertain times.

Thank you.


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cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/26/12

Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: Starman27]
      #6005985 - 08/04/13 09:41 AM

Let's agree not to use the following terms:
<vendor> fan
<vendor> hater
<vendor> shill
<vendor> sock puppet

and similar ones in this vein, basically things that are intended as derogatory of the vendor or person who is being accused. <vendor> stands for any product, vendor, company or country.

That way it might be possible to continue to have a rational discussion.

Bear in mind that these ad-hominem attacks are an indication that you have no counter to the valid points that have been made.

In politics it's different, there mud slinging is encouraged, but this isn't politics.

Chris


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brianb11213
Postmaster
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Reged: 02/25/09

Loc: 55.215N 6.554W
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: cn register 5]
      #6005991 - 08/04/13 10:06 AM

Quote:

In politics it's different, there mud slinging is encouraged, but this isn't politics.



No, it's business, and that's at least as dirty as politics.


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KevH
sage
*****

Reged: 03/08/10

Loc: Maine
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: cn register 5]
      #6005997 - 08/04/13 10:18 AM

Using the word "fan" is comparable to political mudslinging? Wow. I apologize if you were offended. To be fair, if I wanted to be derogatory I would have used "fanboy". That however was not my intention.

I will bow out at this point. I apologize for slinging mud. Though, if someone would be so kind to point out where anyone bad mouthed Celestron in this thread, please post it cause I don't see it. The previous poster was obviously hurt by the hateful tone in my post.

Edited by KevH (08/04/13 10:39 AM)


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Spacetravelerx
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 12/23/12

Loc: New Mexico
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: derangedhermit]
      #6006102 - 08/04/13 01:07 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Anyways, I personally think Meade will weather this storm.



What exactly do you mean when you say that?




Well, being the sailor that I am, they will have a rough ride, a bit of motion sickness and maybe some damage, but will be still floating and the crew will be fine at the end of this storm.


In more business terms:
* Meade will exist in some form
* They will have their Irvine office in the next 12 months
* They will still have their Mexican operations in the next 12 months
* Folks will still buy their products in the next 12 months


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Alph
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/23/06

Loc: Melmac
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: cn register 5]
      #6006107 - 08/04/13 01:15 PM

Quote:

Bear in mind that these ad-hominem attacks are an indication that you have no counter to the valid points that have been made.



if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck then it is a duck


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ColoHank
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 06/07/07

Loc: western Colorado
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: derangedhermit]
      #6006121 - 08/04/13 01:30 PM

Quote:

I know I'm swimming upstream. I'd rather buy something well-made, from someone with a track record of high quality, once, take care of it, and enjoy using it every time for a long time, rather than buy the cheapest thing on the market at the moment no matter where it came from. I'm willing to pay the price to get what I want from the kind of company I want to support.






Questar


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EddWen
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 04/26/08

Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: Spacetravelerx]
      #6006152 - 08/04/13 02:03 PM

What you say here will only happen IF Sunny do a deal. If not,, it is BK which will not take 12 months.

If Sunny does do a deal, I'd rate your prediction at about 50% at best.

Item 1. is likely.
Item 2. not likely, at least for the team there now. I consider an office to be more than a building.
Item 3. Likely.
Item 4. Depends on what Sunny decide to do with the existing distributors. Most sales are through distributors, few via direct sales.

Items 2 and 4 are highly interactive. If Sunny decide to work with existing distributors, they will need a U.S. sales presence. If they decide to do the JOC/ES route, or whatever, things would be different.

The very interesting thing is Meade Europe. They are owned by JOC. Export is about 28% of Meade sales, mostly through ME. Puts Sunny in a difficult position vs one of its competitors.

By the way, if you do have a good business plan to buy Meade and run it profitably, you should shop around for some financing right now. Most buys are done with OPM.

Quote:



In more business terms:
* Meade will exist in some form
* They will have their Irvine office in the next 12 months
* They will still have their Mexican operations in the next 12 months
* Folks will still buy their products in the next 12 months






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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: Spacetravelerx]
      #6006166 - 08/04/13 02:24 PM

Quote:

personally think Meade will weather this storm. I just wished I had the spare funds right now to buy Meade and be done with this story (though if they can hang around in 2 years as a U.S. firm, I could just do it). Maybe I should do that crowd funding thing right now after all....?




Are you kidding? The board is selling the company or declaring bankruptcy and selling the assets. The time to weather was 2008. They didn't. It's game over. We're just hanging out to see if anyone tries to do anything with the few remains. As it is, the only remaining buyer is that crew filling ebay with the junk which drove all the astronomers off ebay to astromart and CN. Buy all the Meade stuff you can, but stop telling yourself this is just a spot of difficulty.

As for who the major manufacturers are, we're moving away from a Budweiser-Miller era into a craft beer era. The world has moved on. I finally understand where you're coming from. You've let your understanding of things become obsolete. Forget what you think you know and look at things anew. The big two era ended a decade ago. Everything is very different, now.

-Rich


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jimb1001
sage
*****

Reged: 11/14/09

Loc: Florida
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: Starhawk]
      #6006198 - 08/04/13 03:24 PM

Quote:

Quote:

personally think Meade will weather this storm. I just wished I had the spare funds right now to buy Meade and be done with this story (though if they can hang around in 2 years as a U.S. firm, I could just do it). Maybe I should do that crowd funding thing right now after all....?




Are you kidding? The board is selling the company or declaring bankruptcy and selling the assets. The time to weather was 2008. They didn't. It's game over. We're just hanging out to see if anyone tries to do anything with the few remains. As it is, the only remaining buyer is that crew filling ebay with the junk which drove all the astronomers off ebay to astromart and CN. Buy all the Meade stuff you can, but stop telling yourself this is just a spot of difficulty.

As for who the major manufacturers are, we're moving away from a Budweiser-Miller era into a craft beer era. The world has moved on. I finally understand where you're coming from. You've let your understanding of things become obsolete. Forget what you think you know and look at things anew. The big two era ended a decade ago. Everything is very different, now.

-Rich




Your perspective is way too narrow.

Is the 12 year old getting his first "department store" telescope now in the "craft beer" era? I don't think so.

What share of the market falls into this category?

Is the 34 year old dad with 3 kids and just enough money to buy a 6" Nexstar SE in the "craft beer" era?

Again, I don't think so.

How about the retired guy with a bit of disposable income but who has not made astronomy his primary diversion? Is he spending $12,000 on an Astro Physics rig or would he prefer to spend $2k on a Meade Lightswitch?

The notion that amateur astronomy has moved into a "craft beer" era is a bit elitist, don't you think?

My guess would be that those spending upwards of $5,000 on a scope and mount may be the majority here, but I even doubt that is true.

At a guess, mine would be that the "craft beer" equivalent in amateur astronomy would be 1-5% of those owning a telescope, but, I admit, that's just a guess.


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: Starhawk]
      #6006202 - 08/04/13 03:26 PM

As an aside for previous discussion, it's apparent a few other people have a mental image of Meade formed in the mid 1990s. And it also explains an assumption it's possible to kill this thread with a slur against Celestron, and are apparently perplexed by the lack of counter arguments.

The reason is If someone wants to talk to the Celestron guys from the big two era, you're talking to someone at PlaneWave.

-Rich


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brianb11213
Postmaster
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Reged: 02/25/09

Loc: 55.215N 6.554W
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: Starhawk]
      #6006219 - 08/04/13 03:43 PM

Quote:

As for who the major manufacturers are, we're moving away from a Budweiser-Miller era into a craft beer era. The world has moved on. I finally understand where you're coming from. You've let your understanding of things become obsolete. Forget what you think you know and look at things anew. The big two era ended a decade ago. Everything is very different, now.



Errr - even if the Meade brand name vanishes, we're still going to be have a mass market dominated by a few brands (Celestron, GSO & Orion), the only difference here is that they're all Chinese owned (and are they really seperate companies, or just apparently competing brands under the same management, like Austin and Morris used to be in the UK car business in the 1970s). If Meade do survive, they'll just be another brand of mass market Chinese manufactured hardware.

You and I may be moving to small friendly companies who are providing high quality products to order, with bigger price tags and longer lead times than Joe Public is prepared to put up with, but don't disillusion yourself that this is where the mass market is heading. The UK car market didn't swing to the likes of Caterham & Morgan when British Leyland finally pulled out of the business: Caterham & Morgan are still there (and probably doing OK by their standards) but we British motorists are now driving German and Japanese mass market cars rather than British ones.

Edited by brianb11213 (08/04/13 04:04 PM)


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Stew57
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/03/09

Loc: Silsbee Texas
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: jimb1001]
      #6006281 - 08/04/13 04:52 PM

Is that LS you refer to a first released version that rarely works and is more frustration than joy to use? By thr time the LS gets sorted the guy swears off Meade if not astronomy all together.

Meade has hads some good ideas, they just haven't implemented well enough.


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: jimb1001]
      #6006368 - 08/04/13 06:03 PM

Quote:



Your perspective is way too narrow.

Is the 12 year old getting his first "department store" telescope now in the "craft beer" era? I don't think so.

What share of the market falls into this category?

Is the 34 year old dad with 3 kids and just enough money to buy a 6" Nexstar SE in the "craft beer" era?

Again, I don't think so.

How about the retired guy with a bit of disposable income but who has not made astronomy his primary diversion? Is he spending $12,000 on an Astro Physics rig or would he prefer to spend $2k on a Meade Lightswitch?

The notion that amateur astronomy has moved into a "craft beer" era is a bit elitist, don't you think?

My guess would be that those spending upwards of $5,000 on a scope and mount may be the majority here, but I even doubt that is true.

At a guess, mine would be that the "craft beer" equivalent in amateur astronomy would be 1-5% of those owning a telescope, but, I admit, that's just a guess.




Not at all. The beginner now finds a Celestron, which as you point out, isn't the Celestron it was in 1997. But also beginners find SkyWatcher, Konus, Orion, Explore Scientific, iOptron, and a slew of others who'd were never in stores back in the day like National Geographic, Barska, Carson, or Smithsonian. And we're talking inexpensive at any budget.

So, you really aren't just talking about the scary heights of the hobby where fewer people than have scaled Mount Everest practice astrophotography before you see scads of brands. The two major prime model was dead at the end of the 1990s. Meade was a final holdout, and maybe their downfall is due to thinking based on a big-two mythology. Again, the world has moved on, and things are very different. Look around. Hit NEAF or ASAE and see what I'm talking about firsthand. The departure of Meade won't even leave a ripple, much less a vacuum to fill.

-Rich


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starrancher
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 06/09/09

Loc: Northern Arizona
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: Starhawk]
      #6006537 - 08/04/13 07:59 PM

Quote:

Time out



OK. The referee calls it .
Quote:

We get it:



We ? There's a mouse in the refs pocket .
Quote:

the thought of Meade capsizing and sinking isn't making you merry inside



You talkin' to me? First off , it's not over yet . Maybe your a fortune teller as well as a ref .
Quote:

But what's this about



Maybe you can help all of us that just don't get it understand .
Quote:

Hermit really didn't make the perfect statement about your personal intent?



Maybe some have problems in comprehension and letting other aspects influence it.
Quote:

If that's the worst thing any of us would see go wrong for the rest of the year, I'd take it.



That's right. You will .


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starrancher
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 06/09/09

Loc: Northern Arizona
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: derangedhermit]
      #6006546 - 08/04/13 08:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Anyways, I personally think Meade will weather this storm.



What exactly do you mean when you say that?




Could this be a pattern ?
How many ways can you interpret it ?
It's a simple sentence in plain English
It means just what it says . And that is "quote" I personally think Meade will weather the storm "unquote"
Cheese and Rice ! It's not rocket science .


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starrancher
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 06/09/09

Loc: Northern Arizona
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: KevH]
      #6006552 - 08/04/13 08:11 PM

Quote:

Where in this thread did anyone call Celestron names? They were mentioned but were hardly called any names. Meade is taken to task on a daily basis around here.... some of it justified but some of it is absurd and borders on trollish. You never see these kinds of posts regarding Celestron. There is a definite Celestron slant to the Cats and Casses forum... If you can't see it then you probably are a Celestron fan.




Exactly !


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