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Equipment Discussions >> Cats & Casses

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starrancher
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 06/09/09

Loc: Northern Arizona
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: KevH]
      #6006558 - 08/04/13 08:15 PM

Quote:

I will bow out at this point. I apologize for slinging mud. Though, if someone would be so kind to point out where anyone bad mouthed Celestron in this thread, please post it cause I don't see it. The previous poster was obviously hurt by the hateful tone in my post.




Exactly !


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

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Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: starrancher]
      #6006572 - 08/04/13 08:29 PM

Dave, you're just baiting. I'm not going for it.

-Rich


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Stew57
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Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: Starhawk]
      #6006625 - 08/04/13 09:05 PM

Bringing up the Celestron quality in a Meade thread? Some of the issues with Celestron are the same issues with Meade sad to say.

People make excuses for the lack of parts (before you flame I understand that Celestron sells a limited number) but all our tools no matter the country of origin have a breakdown with part numbers down to the last screw. Granted for some tools it is cheaper to replace than repair but the option is there.

The CGEM problems have been documented and exposed. Sure it took awhile for the DEC cogging and 8/3 error to be brought to light, especially on the group site, but it is out there. Celestron themselves are admitting to the problem and working on fixes. Meade had some heavy duty GEMs that they discontinued rather than update and refine. That is a Meade problem not an anti Meade post. Meade evidently bet on the fork while Celestron sunk resources into the GEM. The average consumers that I have dealt with spending those kind of dollars like the ability to change OTAs and the lighter setup weight. I think Meade just chose wrong. That is what was so disappointing in the LX80 and LX800 releases. After the launch fiascos Meade lost some reputation. I think people were wanting some real shake down of the LX850 before spending that kind of money, and now this financial meltdown.


Meade was first out with the self aligning scope the LS. Is was buggy and problematic upon release. Celestron's came out later but seemed to work better. I have neither but have talked to owners.

Meade came out with the ACF which reduces comatic aberration and Celestron comes out with the Edge series. They take different approaches and only one flattens the field. There is no better way, you pay your money and take your choice. If one favors one method over the other is that hating?


Warning others that are uniformed of Meade's plight is not hating, it is being a good neighbor. With people telling others that now is a good time to buy Meade products sets me to wondering if they are employed by Meade or are a shareholder.


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KevH
sage
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Reged: 03/08/10

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Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: Stew57]
      #6006681 - 08/04/13 09:40 PM

Quote:

Bringing up the Celestron quality in a Meade thread? Some of the issues with Celestron are the same issues with Meade sad to say.

People make excuses for the lack of parts (before you flame I understand that Celestron sells a limited number) but all our tools no matter the country of origin have a breakdown with part numbers down to the last screw. Granted for some tools it is cheaper to replace than repair but the option is there.

The CGEM problems have been documented and exposed. Sure it took awhile for the DEC cogging and 8/3 error to be brought to light, especially on the group site, but it is out there. Celestron themselves are admitting to the problem and working on fixes. Meade had some heavy duty GEMs that they discontinued rather than update and refine. That is a Meade problem not an anti Meade post. Meade evidently bet on the fork while Celestron sunk resources into the GEM. The average consumers that I have dealt with spending those kind of dollars like the ability to change OTAs and the lighter setup weight. I think Meade just chose wrong. That is what was so disappointing in the LX80 and LX800 releases. After the launch fiascos Meade lost some reputation. I think people were wanting some real shake down of the LX850 before spending that kind of money, and now this financial meltdown.


Meade was first out with the self aligning scope the LS. Is was buggy and problematic upon release. Celestron's came out later but seemed to work better. I have neither but have talked to owners.

Meade came out with the ACF which reduces comatic aberration and Celestron comes out with the Edge series. They take different approaches and only one flattens the field. There is no better way, you pay your money and take your choice. If one favors one method over the other is that hating?


Warning others that are uniformed of Meade's plight is not hating, it is being a good neighbor. With people telling others that now is a good time to buy Meade products sets me to wondering if they are employed by Meade or are a shareholder.




Those are all fair and valid points and are not what I was referring to in an earlier post. The bashing I've seen has been more along the lines of...

1. A new user posted a review of the LX850. He was immediately labeled a Meade employee and never returned.

2. Just about every image Jason Ware has posted has featured some of the more absurd comments I've ever seen on these boards. Just unreal. You know, nice little one liners like "I'm not impressed" or "The stars are not round". If these were framed in a constructive way, no problem but as presented they were clearly just there to bash the LX850.

3. The great mod conspiracy. You know, the one where a mod posted some PEC data on his blog but not on CN. Suddenly there were accusations of a conspiracy and peolple were protecting Meade and the integrity of CN was questioned.

4. There was a thread in which an Equipment Hall of Shame was discussed. Someone posted that Meade HQ would be a great place for this Hall of Shame since most of the equipment would already be there.

These are some of the recent things I am talking about... Since I joined these forums in 2010, I have seen plenty more. More than I want to type here.


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Stew57
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Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: KevH]
      #6006749 - 08/04/13 10:15 PM

[quote

Those are all fair and valid points and are not what I was referring to in an earlier post. The bashing I've seen has been more along the lines of...

1. A new user posted a review of the LX850. He was immediately labeled a Meade employee and never returned.

2. Just about every image Jason Ware has posted has featured some of the more absurd comments I've ever seen on these boards. Just unreal. You know, nice little one liners like "I'm not impressed" or "The stars are not round". If these were framed in a constructive way, no problem but as presented they were clearly just there to bash the LX850.

3. The great mod conspiracy. You know, the one where a mod posted some PEC data on his blog but not on CN. Suddenly there were accusations of a conspiracy and peolple were protecting Meade and the integrity of CN was questioned.

4. There was a thread in which an Equipment Hall of Shame was discussed. Someone posted that Meade HQ would be a great place for this Hall of Shame since most of the equipment would already be there.

These are some of the recent things I am talking about... Since I joined these forums in 2010, I have seen plenty more. More than I want to type here.




1. I missed that. That is too bad. It would have been nice to see how he has progressed with the mount

2. I have never seen a bad pic from Jason Ware! The LX850 was marketed to guys like me. Someone that is having a hard enough time reading through "AP for Dummies". Jason has abilities and knowledge that I will never have. I would like to see what some regular beginners like me have done with the LX850.

3. I did see the blog and posts. I saw no conspiracy but it did appear he was a bit disappointed in the mount and going to sell it at some point. Later posts seem to indicate that the problems were in the process of being solved by Meade. I wonder where the conspiracy bunch jumped in, maybe they didn't read far enough? Anyway I can not fathom how anyone would impugn the blogger in question's honesty at all.

4. I missed this one also but it is a bit funny. Celestron has it's fair load to contribute also! Wax figures of the management should be included in any museum of shame!


The funny thing is I have had a lot more trouble out of my CGEM than my ETX80. The CGEM was serviced a couple of times then replaced a couple of times. The current one works fine. The ETX80 always worked. Of course the definition of works is as different between the 2 as is the price difference.


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: KevH]
      #6006815 - 08/04/13 11:09 PM

Quote:


Those are all fair and valid points and are not what I was referring to in an earlier post. The bashing I've seen has been more along the lines of...

1. A new user posted a review of the LX850. He was immediately labeled a Meade employee and never returned.

2. Just about every image Jason Ware has posted has featured some of the more absurd comments I've ever seen on these boards. Just unreal. You know, nice little one liners like "I'm not impressed" or "The stars are not round". If these were framed in a constructive way, no problem but as presented they were clearly just there to bash the LX850.

3. The great mod conspiracy. You know, the one where a mod posted some PEC data on his blog but not on CN. Suddenly there were accusations of a conspiracy and peolple were protecting Meade and the integrity of CN was questioned.

4. There was a thread in which an Equipment Hall of Shame was discussed. Someone posted that Meade HQ would be a great place for this Hall of Shame since most of the equipment would already be there.

These are some of the recent things I am talking about... Since I joined these forums in 2010, I have seen plenty more. More than I want to type here.




You've been keeping a grudge list? I can't even find the first item- is it even from CN? What's the point of this? How in the world is this relevant to this thread?

-Rich


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jrcrillyAdministrator
Refractor wienie no more
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Reged: 04/30/03

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Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: Stew57]
      #6006851 - 08/04/13 11:49 PM

Quote:

3. I did see the blog and posts. I saw no conspiracy but it did appear he was a bit disappointed in the mount and going to sell it at some point.




I can see how some of that may have been confusing. I bought the mount knowing that, like the many other mounts I've owned, it would be leaving at some point and I probably mentioned that. Folks who know me are aware that I greatly enjoy trying different things and often empty the observatory in Spring to start over. I should have been more aware that many of the folks reading threads like this don't know me (I've never been very active in Meade threads before; it's been quite a few years since I owned any Meade gear) and I should have been more clear. Lots of good mounts have left here, including the Tak EM-10, EM-200 and NJP. Quite a few mounts from Celestron and Vixen, too, among others. I wasn't disappointed in them; it was just time to try something else.

I'm fairly sure that I never expressed disappointment in the mount; I know that I haven't felt any. I did post the downloaded PEC data on the blog, and when I finally had a chance to verify it by watching tracking in the main scope with Starlock off, I posted that corroboration on CN - but apparently not in the right thread to satisfy someone. The numbers were a little larger than others have reported, but not larger than I had expected before seeing those other reports (it was better than any of the Meade mounts I've previously owned). I wasn't worried about it; it was very smooth and I always guide. I was later asked to swap out the RA drive so Meade could check it to see why my measured error was greater than their preshipment measurements on my mount. I have done that, as a favor to Meade. If I hear anything back from them I'll share it. If the clouds ever go away, I'll start imaging again and, if time permits after I have done what I want to do, I'll see if the numbers have changed with the new drive.

I know that my priorities don't align with those of some posters here, but I don't feel a need to apologize for that. Anyone who is truly obsessed with tests and measurements on this model is free to obtain one and have a ball. It'll get them much farther much quicker than demanding that others do it for them on their own time, effort, and expense.


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KevH
sage
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Reged: 03/08/10

Loc: Maine
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: Starhawk]
      #6006854 - 08/04/13 11:49 PM

How have the last several pages been relevant? I guess it all started with the xenophobic comment and the accusation that someone called Celestron a name. As far as a grudge list, nope. Just observations. Sorry if you don't like them.

Requested link.


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orion61

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Reged: 10/20/07

Loc: Birthplace James T Kirk
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: KevH]
      #6006869 - 08/05/13 12:03 AM

There are some here that are entwined with Celestron that is for sure..
BUT everybody put the *BLEEP* aside and look at Company 7's website. Make sure to look at BOTH Celestron AND Meade's History..
Seems exactly like we are going through another wave..
Celestrons turn is next.. Memba Tasco??
I wonder what everybody is going to do when those little lenses inside the Edge tubes get dirty?


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
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Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: orion61]
      #6006915 - 08/05/13 12:49 AM

I really don't see how Celestron is relevant other than being in the way when Meade wanted to show the shareholders they were a mover and shaker. That organization was successfully destroyed by the Meade LNT lawsuit. So, there's no other shoe waiting to drop, there. It's already been done.

Will the corrector lenses in the Edge HD need to be cleaned at some point? Sure, about as often as the secondary. They're successfully hanging back and letting someone else get the bloody wounds on the cutting edge, then following up when they know what the pitfalls are.

Considering it was Meade getting the hits, it hardly seems fair since it was Celestron with the bigger budgets. Not sure if they will innovate as much, now, or what. It's pretty clear they will have lots of young guns going for them. Historically, as far as I can tell, these sorts of rivalries never seem to end up meaning what the participants built up in their minds. It's very clear at this point the emergence of iOptron, Orion, and Explore Scientific mean there won't be a calm happy time for Celestron, or a reconstituted Meade if such a thing appears.

-Rich


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jimb1001
sage
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Reged: 11/14/09

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Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: Stew57]
      #6006926 - 08/05/13 01:13 AM

Quote:

Is that LS you refer to a first released version that rarely works and is more frustration than joy to use? By thr time the LS gets sorted the guy swears off Meade if not astronomy all together.

Meade has hads some good ideas, they just haven't implemented well enough.




My LS8 worked perfectly right out of the box last January.

It's not frustrating at all and it is a joy to use. Its light weight, stable, sturdy, the gotos are spot on and it tracks very well.

I use it with my Mallincam and I can have everything set up and observing in 15 minutes.

I'm rarely an early adopter of technology products whether its Windows before the first service pack is released, a Celestron mount, a Meade scope or even a MacBook air. I wouldn't buy the first year of a new model Mercedes, BMW or Corvette for that matter.

If you often buy brand new technology and its perfect out of the box you're a lucky guy.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: derangedhermit]
      #6007042 - 08/05/13 04:52 AM

Quote:

I specifically said "small companies".




I think there was a time within the last 10 years Meade would have qualified as a small company. I have a friend with a company larger than Meade was before the ipo. Voting with one's pocketbook has value even with larger companies but in Meade's current situation, it wouldn't help.

It's fun to discuss Meade equipment, I have more Meade equipment than Celestron equipment but I have a sweet spot in my heart for Celestron simply because they were the one's responsible for the commercially viable SCT, when Celestron showed the way, Meade followed.

But it's not about the equipment... Meade's fortunes were not a result of the equipment, their fortunes have been the result of decisions made on the basis of Wall Street. The equipment issues were the result of those decisions.

Jon

Edited by Jon Isaacs (08/05/13 05:13 AM)


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jgraham
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Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6007159 - 08/05/13 07:40 AM

Hmmm, I thought that Celestron Pacific made the first commercially viable SCT. I feel like these companies have been bought and sold so many times that the engineering, drive, and passion that made them what they were is so long gone they are now just a company name.

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Starhawk
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Reged: 09/16/08

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Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: jgraham]
      #6007371 - 08/05/13 10:37 AM

Celestron was Celestron until Tasco.

But this does point to something I hadn't really thought about with Meade- they really had an obsession with raiding other people's business more than building their own. First going into SCTs for that express purpose, then the TV Plossls as the Meade 4000 eyepieces, then claiming they'd shut Astro Physics down with imported ED scopes, claiming to be the Questar replacement, and finally going after Ritchey-Chretiens and high end mounts. It's really amazing they held on as long as they did with that quality of planning. And such a huge heap of near term opportunities was left on the table by doing that.

More lessons in what not to do if I get the chance to try.

-Rich


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Whichwayisnorth
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Reged: 07/04/11

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Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: jgraham]
      #6007422 - 08/05/13 11:17 AM

I've never given Celestron a pass on the items I've owned. I thought the CGEPRO version that I had, which was one of the first one out the door so to speak, was garbage. I took it down to their office in Torrence twice to have them fix it. I got rid of it as soon as I could. Now from what I understand they are really great for the money.

I have also mentioned a few issues I've had with the Advanced VX mount I have and I posted the PE information I have on mine as well as some images I took.

I was looking hard at the CGEM with 11" Edge for a while. Then I read the multi-page post about the issues with them and decide to pass.

I was at one point seriously considering the Losmandy G11 with Gemini 2. What stopped me was the feedback on CN from folks complaining about the bugs in the software and incomplete features.

Meade gets taken to task because they seem to just keep on keeping on with their policies that result in releases of equipment that isn't ready or can't ever do what they claim. They do it because they need the money. No other reason why the LX800 was released early other than they needed cash and they had a bunch of pre-orders. No other reason to release the LX80 except for the same reason. They did it to themselves and I am more than a little bitter about the whole thing as I had bought both of those mounts.

If it wasn't for the customer service I've received being EXCELLENT, I'd have already given up. As John pointed out in his post if we have a problem with the LX850 they are jumping on it quick and going above and beyond to address them. I hope whatever happens with Meade the great folks that are working down in Mexico are snatched up, given raises, and treated better. They really deserve it.

Edited by Whichwayisnorth (08/05/13 11:23 AM)


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: jgraham]
      #6007438 - 08/05/13 11:29 AM

Quote:

Hmmm, I thought that Celestron Pacific made the first commercially viable SCT. I feel like these companies have been bought and sold so many times that the engineering, drive, and passion that made them what they were is so long gone they are now just a company name.




Celestron History

It is my understanding that Celestron Pacific was part of the linage of Celestron, I am not sure of the need to distinguish between the two in terms of who made the modern SCT possible.

Jon


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rmollise
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Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: Starhawk]
      #6007613 - 08/05/13 01:14 PM

Quote:

Celestron was Celestron until Tasco.






Not really. Celestron was Celestron until Diethelm...


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rmollise
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Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6007620 - 08/05/13 01:16 PM

Celestron and Celestron Pacific represent a minor name change. More important was the company's purchase by Diethelm who nearly ran them into the ground in the 80s.

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rmollise
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Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: rmollise]
      #6007630 - 08/05/13 01:20 PM

Quote:

"Celestron" and "Celestron Pacific" represent a minor name change. More important was the company's purchase by Diethelm who nearly ran them into the ground in the 80s. Even then, most of the same people were on staff except for Tom Johnson. Even there, Diethelm had to bring him back in to do new Master Blocks and train technicians in how to make more when needed.




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ColoHank
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Reged: 06/07/07

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Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: Starman1]
      #6008090 - 08/05/13 06:13 PM

Quote:


I occasionally see one of the ED refractors that Meade made in the '90s at an observing site (up to 7", which is the one I often see). Those were US-made. As was the 7" Maksutov. That was really the heyday of Meade to this amateur. They've had occasional products that were really nice since then, but none that really tempted me except the 127mm triplet apo.






Meade's 7" Mak could have been a lot better, but the company screwed it up by shoving an immense chunk of iron in the rear of the OTA not only to balance it, but also to ensure that the scope would take forever and a day to reach temperature equilibrium. A more intelligent approach would have been to move the declination axles forward on the tube to achieve balance, but then the engineers would have had to lengthen the fork arms a bit to accommodate the different geometry. Heck, they even could have mounted a 7" Mak sans internal counterweight on a GEM and been done with it. Instead, they took the cheap way out, added the internal weight so they could use the same fork mount as the 8" SCT, and compromised the performance of what otherwise might have been a more competent instrument.

Over the years, the aggregate of all the little shortcuts like that probably helped get them on a faster track to where they are today.


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