Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home pageAstronomics discounts for Cloudy Nights members
· Get a Cloudy Nights T-Shirt · Submit a Review / Article

Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums

Privacy Policy | Please read our Terms of Service | Signup and Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu… uh, User

Equipment Discussions >> Cats & Casses

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | >> (show all)
pubquiz
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 10/07/04

Loc: Lancashire England
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: Starhawk]
      #5934628 - 06/22/13 01:27 PM

Hi Rich

it's OK I don't have regrets

Just thought I would post in this thread as it's got a spurious link.

Yes it would be great (in most ways) if we could see the future.

Wish Meade well anyway whatever the future holds.

Tom


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gmartin02
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 04/11/05

Loc: Santa Clarita, CA
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: rmollise]
      #5934682 - 06/22/13 02:10 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Btw, I'd be in for $1k.




Better have another 10K to throw in too...the purchase price would be just the beginning...




Rod,

I'm surprised you are the first one to mention this. With so many posters talking (fantasizing) about chipping in to pool enough money to buy Meade, without a MASSIVE additional amount of capitol after the purchase, Meade fails anyway (not to mention the amateur investors all losing some to all of their money). Meade is losing money hand over fist every month, and even with a great management team, it would take at least a couple of years to turn the cash flow around. Also, no-one is going to extend a line of credit to a group of amateur astronomers who just purchased a failing company, so this idea probably has the highest probability of Meade going under permanently. It is a nice dream, but one that is not based on reality.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Stew57
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/03/09

Loc: Silsbee Texas
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: gmartin02]
      #5934717 - 06/22/13 02:29 PM

Oh no! Nothing like a dose of reality to bring everyone down. Most people have no idea what it takes to keep a business going.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Spacetravelerx
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 12/23/12

Loc: New Mexico
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: gmartin02]
      #5934746 - 06/22/13 02:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Btw, I'd be in for $1k.




Better have another 10K to throw in too...the purchase price would be just the beginning...




Rod,

I'm surprised you are the first one to mention this. With so many posters talking (fantasizing) about chipping in to pool enough money to buy Meade, without a MASSIVE additional amount of capitol after the purchase, Meade fails anyway (not to mention the amateur investors all losing some to all of their money). Meade is losing money hand over fist every month, and even with a great management team, it would take at least a couple of years to turn the cash flow around. Also, no-one is going to extend a line of credit to a group of amateur astronomers who just purchased a failing company, so this idea probably has the highest probability of Meade going under permanently. It is a nice dream, but one that is not based on reality.





GMartin....

No no no. You are wrong.

I mentioned in an earlier post (first day I believe) fairly clearly that not only would folks have to purchase the stock, BUT also have to raise sufficient capital for operations, investments and growth. If $30 million was raised, for example, I am pretty certain there would not only be sufficient working capital, but also some of the folks on this message board are in fact business leaders and experts so I am confident they could drum up something. Right now, I am not interested in purchasing Meade as I have other major business deals going (plus it is not the field I am an expert in on the business side, plus I have no channels there to work from), and I am very confident in Scott and Russ and the team they are working with.

One other problem with your statement. I am an amateur astronomer, yet I can work several banking, business and contractual deals without a problem for a variety of conditions. Understand, there is an entire range of income represented on this board - folks who cobble together components and parts to build something, those who look for stuff on ebay, those who save every penny to just to get a $2,000 system, mid-range buyers, and folks with millions (and business leaders) who can pay cash for a PlaneWave (trust me, folks typically do not finance a PlaneWave).

Meade is losing money right now, because people are slowing their purchases - this creates a death spiral. No purchases, less revenue - more loss of funds. More bad news and even less people purchase something, more loss of money...you get my drift.

Like I said, people should purchase as usual. I am. I am looking forward to seeing my purchases when I get back from my business trip.

And there is a definite market for Meade. They do have a great product line.

One thing I find very curious is the Celestron folks talk about problems with Meade products and talk smack about Meade, but having scanned this board for the past couple weeks it seems folks are having lots of problems with their Celestrons and other systems.

Curious. Simply curious.

Either way, I love my Meade products, will continue to purchase from them and looking forward to their growth.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
stevew
Now I've done it


Reged: 03/03/06

Loc: British Columbia Canada
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: Stew57]
      #5934752 - 06/22/13 02:52 PM

If the sale is held up in the courts for years the real looser will be us, the astronomical community.
Meade has made many great products over the years, and with out Meade we will have less choices.

Steve


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gnowellsct
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/24/09

Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: gmartin02]
      #5934932 - 06/22/13 04:28 PM

Quote:

Meade is losing money hand over fist every month,




Yeah but it's like the banking industry. Every time you take a look all it is doing is losing money. But it's *always there.* Never goes away.

GN


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: Spacetravelerx]
      #5935031 - 06/22/13 05:22 PM

As far as I can tell, if you scraped together $30 mil, you would have the highest level of capitalization in the entire amateur astronomy related optical products industry. We aren't talking about Google-sized enterprises, here. The largest companies are on the order of the average car dealership.

People keep talking on CN like they are vast organizations with thousands of employees, limitless resources, and immense revenue. It just isn't that way. Individuals matter a lot in these shops.

-Rich

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Btw, I'd be in for $1k.




Better have another 10K to throw in too...the purchase price would be just the beginning...




Rod,

I'm surprised you are the first one to mention this. With so many posters talking (fantasizing) about chipping in to pool enough money to buy Meade, without a MASSIVE additional amount of capitol after the purchase, Meade fails anyway (not to mention the amateur investors all losing some to all of their money). Meade is losing money hand over fist every month, and even with a great management team, it would take at least a couple of years to turn the cash flow around. Also, no-one is going to extend a line of credit to a group of amateur astronomers who just purchased a failing company, so this idea probably has the highest probability of Meade going under permanently. It is a nice dream, but one that is not based on reality.





GMartin....

No no no. You are wrong.

I mentioned in an earlier post (first day I believe) fairly clearly that not only would folks have to purchase the stock, BUT also have to raise sufficient capital for operations, investments and growth. If $30 million was raised, for example, I am pretty certain there would not only be sufficient working capital, but also some of the folks on this message board are in fact business leaders and experts so I am confident they could drum up something. Right now, I am not interested in purchasing Meade as I have other major business deals going (plus it is not the field I am an expert in on the business side, plus I have no channels there to work from), and I am very confident in Scott and Russ and the team they are working with.

One other problem with your statement. I am an amateur astronomer, yet I can work several banking, business and contractual deals without a problem for a variety of conditions. Understand, there is an entire range of income represented on this board - folks who cobble together components and parts to build something, those who look for stuff on ebay, those who save every penny to just to get a $2,000 system, mid-range buyers, and folks with millions (and business leaders) who can pay cash for a PlaneWave (trust me, folks typically do not finance a PlaneWave).

Meade is losing money right now, because people are slowing their purchases - this creates a death spiral. No purchases, less revenue - more loss of funds. More bad news and even less people purchase something, more loss of money...you get my drift.

Like I said, people should purchase as usual. I am. I am looking forward to seeing my purchases when I get back from my business trip.

And there is a definite market for Meade. They do have a great product line.

One thing I find very curious is the Celestron folks talk about problems with Meade products and talk smack about Meade, but having scanned this board for the past couple weeks it seems folks are having lots of problems with their Celestrons and other systems.

Curious. Simply curious.

Either way, I love my Meade products, will continue to purchase from them and looking forward to their growth.




Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Dwight J
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 05/14/09

Loc: Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: rmollise]
      #5935071 - 06/22/13 05:50 PM

Well if Meade disappears that will make all my Meade equipment collector items. I truly hope they survive and one day thrive again.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
David PavlichAdministrator
Transmographied
*****

Reged: 05/18/05

Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: gmartin02]
      #5935143 - 06/22/13 06:44 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Btw, I'd be in for $1k.




Better have another 10K to throw in too...the purchase price would be just the beginning...




Rod,

I'm surprised you are the first one to mention this. With so many posters talking (fantasizing) about chipping in to pool enough money to buy Meade, without a MASSIVE additional amount of capitol after the purchase, Meade fails anyway (not to mention the amateur investors all losing some to all of their money). Meade is losing money hand over fist every month, and even with a great management team, it would take at least a couple of years to turn the cash flow around. Also, no-one is going to extend a line of credit to a group of amateur astronomers who just purchased a failing company, so this idea probably has the highest probability of Meade going under permanently. It is a nice dream, but one that is not based on reality.




I mentioned it here within page 4.

David


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: David Pavlich]
      #5935241 - 06/22/13 07:59 PM

I asked what folks thought about either setting up a reborn Meade focused on the old core business of SCTs and fork mounts with the solar sideline (as Interesting Jim had suggested) or just the SCTs and fork mounts alone if Meade proved unattainable. I got a combination of derision about what a lousy investment that was and crickets from just about everyone else who had piped up earlier.

So, I don't know if this effort is suffering from an over abundance of naive enthusiasm for trying to save Meade or producing a similar role in the marketplace.

If anything, it seems we are at the other extreme. I'm waiting for someone to point out it is wildly optimistic to think amateur astronomers would be able to acquire ballpoint pens to sign legal papers even if we lined up the other resources to start a small shop of our own.

-Rich


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
David PavlichAdministrator
Transmographied
*****

Reged: 05/18/05

Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: Starhawk]
      #5935511 - 06/22/13 10:50 PM

If I may make a suggestion, interested parties need to find a place that they can inject ideas that will comprise a business plan. Something like starting a blog spot or some such thing that is only visible to truly interested parties. Unless you find an investor(s) that are willing to put up long term capital, you're going to have to get a bank involved or some sort of venture capitalist. You're going to need a well thought out business plan that does one thing; tells the investor/bank how you're going to pay back the money. They don't care about plans with pretty pie charts and graphs, they want to see what kind of homework you did and if your plan to pay back the money is a sound plan. I know I wouldn't commit a penny until I saw some sort of well thought out plan.

David


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
johnnyha
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 11/12/06

Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: David Pavlich]
      #5935564 - 06/22/13 11:30 PM

Meade needs Tabatha.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Spacetravelerx
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 12/23/12

Loc: New Mexico
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: David Pavlich]
      #5935658 - 06/23/13 12:51 AM

Quote:

If I may make a suggestion, interested parties need to find a place that they can inject ideas that will comprise a business plan. Something like starting a blog spot or some such thing that is only visible to truly interested parties. Unless you find an investor(s) that are willing to put up long term capital, you're going to have to get a bank involved or some sort of venture capitalist. You're going to need a well thought out business plan that does one thing; tells the investor/bank how you're going to pay back the money. They don't care about plans with pretty pie charts and graphs, they want to see what kind of homework you did and if your plan to pay back the money is a sound plan. I know I wouldn't commit a penny until I saw some sort of well thought out plan.

David




Very true David.

With our business we typically write a business plan once year. Also, all our commercialization efforts involve a full up business plan. All our new projects/business adventures also have business plans. Our experience shows it is best to start with a 5 page executive summary, and then up to a 12 page plan. For more extensive operations we expand to whatever is required.

I suspect the two organizations bidding on Meade have done a full up business plan and have completed their due diligence. I would also suspect most of the vendors supporting this field of study - Meade, Celestron, Questar, iOptron, etc - complete a business plan at least once per year or two. If not, yikes!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: Spacetravelerx]
      #5935746 - 06/23/13 01:56 AM

David,

Your point is well taken. But before writing a business plan, it seemed prudent to take a moment to see if there is even a reason to. And I'll go ahead and admit to a secret agenda- I've wanted to start a company for some time now, but I've been unable to find the magic formula where it is something not on the shelf, but the demand and finances don't obviously show irreconciable flaws within half an hour of starting the spreadsheet.

In this case, I was interested largely because Meade actually had been a going concern, and all flip comments aside, pretty obviously if Celestron can keep going in that market, there is still a market. Of course, there has been the problem where it looked like there may be enough room for one, but not two primes in the exact same niche. And that's fair enough in my mind-the two of them had been barely surviving enough times to make the point.

So, I moved on a little and asked, "OK, so what if one was going to try to breathe lasting life into Meade- what is that?" Well, I come to the conclusion more cash to burn through is as futile as sending more young men to the front was in WWI. Doing more of what has been done already is no answer. So, that immediately means this has to be something different, but related, or there is no reason to play with this idea.

Going to a few star parties shows there is lasting interest in SCTs on forks. And that would seem to be a core to stick to. With that said, these somehow have to be meaningfully distinguished in the marketplace to have a niche. And it has to be a good enough reason to overcome background discussions about the company's recent near bankruptcy. I'm enough of a business student to be aware of the three successful strategies: Be the cheapest OR be the best OR serve a niche market perfectly. Claiming to go out to be the cheapest in the face of Synta sounds ridiculous, so that's out. Being the best out of the gate needs a scenario check- rematch with RCOptical? Take on AP? My groin smarts just thinking about how well that is likely to go. But then there are niches who can be served well, for example with superior fork systems for the mobile crowd and small robotic observatories. Modular SCTs for specific missions and ease of modification for new roles. It isn't everyone who cares about these, but I do know who these people are. But that isn't a global product producer for everyman.

I don't think this level of discussion has anything especially secretive in it, and since I'd be in the position of hoping to recruit people from CN to do this, I'm not sure how to do that without an initial open discussion. Although it isn't a conventional peer review, weak ideas do have a short half-life around here.

Is a full scale Meade as it was viable? Frankly, I don't think so. Something has to be different. And that's a lot of something.

There's also a part where my own mind rebels a bit in the discussions about global distribution networks and vast dealer networks, and thinking about how all that activity can mean a $1 mil in sales a month and that's starvation with people talking about your exit from the marketplace.

It makes me think of the airlines- vast fortunes tied up in aircraft with armies of people dilligently doing thousands of tasks to keep them flying, thousands more making a transport network run, burning millions of gallons of fuel to transport peope at sub-SUV class mileage despite 110 years of trying to make airplanes more efficient. But in the big picture, they are barely making enough to keep their heads above water, and the people they serve feel like they were poorly treated when everything went as well as it can.

It kind of makes sense to not write a business plan explaining to investors how we have a scheme to take over the world with something just good enough to sell but not so good it's eroding the margins. That isn't where Roland, Tom, or Alvan got their start. They started with something you could touch.

-Rich

Edited by Starhawk (06/23/13 02:06 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: Starhawk]
      #5935896 - 06/23/13 05:51 AM

Quote:

In this case, I was interested largelybecauseMeadeactually had been a going concern, and all flip commentsaside,prettyobviouslyif Celestron can keep going in that market, there is still a market.




Rich:

I look at the Celestron turn around as an example of why the Jinghua transaction is the right solution. It's about the best possible outcome for a once respected US manufacturer that was done in when manufacturing shifted to another country. Most often it seems the only value left is in the name.

To turn Meade around will take someone/a group who knows and understands the market, the telescope business and Meade. To turn it around one must know a lot about the specifics. For example, it may be that the cost of manufacturing SCTs in Mexico is just too expensive.

A business model needs to be based on fundamental knowledge of the business.

Four million dollars is not a lot of money. But buying Meade for four million is like buying a broken down old car, you don't really know what you are getting, what is really wrong with it and whether it is even worth repairing... But what you do know is that its going to cost a lot more than you paid for it and that the right person to buy such a car is already a skilled mechanic.

Jon


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
rmollise
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 07/06/07

Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: gmartin02]
      #5935968 - 06/23/13 08:24 AM

Quote:



Rod,

I'm surprised you are the first one to mention this. With so many posters talking (fantasizing) about chipping in to pool enough money to buy Meade, without a MASSIVE additional amount of capitol after the purchase, Meade fails anyway (not to mention the amateur investors all losing some to all of their money). Meade is losing money hand over fist every month, and even with a great management team, it would take at least a couple of years to turn the cash flow around. Also, no-one is going to extend a line of credit to a group of amateur astronomers who just purchased a failing company, so this idea probably has the highest probability of Meade going under permanently. It is a nice dream, but one that is not based on reality.




I think at least one person mentioned this before I did...but anyhoo. It's a lovely dream, Meade run by amateurs, but the reality is that it would take quite a lot to pull the company back. My assumption is that, as is usually the case with situations like this, the conditions at Meade are considerably worse than they appear, and that it would take a long-term commitment with cash to go with it to reset the Meade clock to say, "1995."


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
MikeBOKC
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 05/10/10

Loc: Oklahoma City, OK
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: rmollise]
      #5936088 - 06/23/13 09:52 AM

Watching this and similar threads for some time I think we can summarize:

-- Meade has at least a ten year history of rolling out very promising products with great fanfare, for actual and potential customers to soon discover that they either don't work very well or don't work at all. That is usually fatal to a company selling complex products.

-- They are basically broke and headed for bankruptcy unless someone buys the whole shebang and dumps considerable capital in for a significant period of time.

-- They seem to have made a strategic decision in recent years to focus on the imaging sub-market in astronomy, which is a relatively small niche market to begin with. As a visual observer I would have not interest in Starlock for example, or on the wedge-mounted LX600.

-- Their strongest point has, for some time, been their optics, which I think most people agree are excellent. Their weakness has been the platform.

-- Someone will buy them, or they will go belly up. Not a darn thing we can do to impact that outcome.

-- If the former and if it is a competent buyer, old Meade will soon give way to new Meade, and in 3-5 years they'll be back in the mix as a major player. If the latter, the best products will re-emerge under a different name.

-- Ain't no ad hoc CN coalition going to ride to the rescue.

-- No matter what happens, the sun will rise tomorrow and there will still be a number of good choices for people involved in this hobby.

The whole saga reminds me of the dead cart scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail . . . "no really, I'm getting better." "no he's not." "Yes I am." "Thunk!"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
OleCuss
member


Reged: 11/22/10

Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: rmollise]
      #5936105 - 06/23/13 10:04 AM

Maybe I can contribute a little more here. Useful to remember that I'm no titan of industry and have never managed a company. Oh, I've been on the board of a small specialized enterprise - but that isn't nearly the same thing.

I think it is important to remember that JOC already owns Meade in Europe. It'd be interesting to know how they run that.

Important also to remember that Explore Scientific has been having problems with supplying their eyepiece market. I've been hearing lots of reports that people just can't get them and that there have been more quality issues when they get them.

I keep reading of Scott Roberts as the potential savior of Meade. No offense at all to Mr. Roberts, but he wouldn't be the one running the show - it'd be JOC telling him how he was going to run Meade. So even if Mr. Roberts is magical, putting him nominally in charge of Meade would not be magical.

Nevertheless, if JOC buys Meade I'd expect customer service to actually improve in the short-term. I'm not at all sure what would happen in the long-term, however.

Also, let's assume for the moment that Meade goes bankrupt. That still leaves a lot of assets out there which can be purchased.

Maybe someone like Orion Optics would be interested in picking up the Mexican manufacturing piece of things?

Maybe MITC would buy that part of things?

In any case, JOC would still likely be able to make a lot of the lower end "Meade" scopes. After all, it may be worth remembering that in Europe you can still buy the ETX-125 PE? Yup, JOC might be willing to sell stuff to us through their Explore Scientific subsidiary that we've not been able to get for years.

I just don't see the components of Meade going away - even if they go bankrupt. And even if they go bankrupt, remember that it might not be a Chapter 7 bankruptcy? They could try for a Chapter 11 or 13 while working through a sale? Not entirely sure how that would work.

But you can bet that in the case of a bankruptcy someone is going to be looking at the Meade assets and considering snapping them up. It could even be someone like Vixen or maybe Orion Optics, etc.

Personally, I'm quite willing to consider further Meade purchases as needs, funds, and availability dictate. May not be able to get warranty work, but I just don't see Meade evaporating even if they go bankrupt.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
belgrade
sage


Reged: 10/05/07

Loc: Frisco, TX
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: OleCuss]
      #5936318 - 06/23/13 12:32 PM

The last 2 posts by rmollise and OleCus make a lot of sense. But, whatever happens, the fact remains that Meade has marked the last few decades by its products. Let us all hope that it will survive in whatever (re) incarnation for the good of the world's amateur astronomy community. If it doesn't, we all loose. Our hobby will survive but it won't be the same

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
jimb1001
sage
*****

Reged: 11/14/09

Loc: Florida
Re: The plot thickens (Meade takeover) [Re: belgrade]
      #5936479 - 06/23/13 02:09 PM

The odds of Meade surviving as one of the "big two" are nil.

A long history of ups and downs has created a number, perhaps small, of Meade bashers who will offset any amount of new advertising. "Give 'em a chance" will generate a squeaky wheel chorus of "why take the risk".

Increasing complexity requires a trained and experienced support staff. You can make it, but if you can't support it you won't be successful.

Let's say Meade pins its hopes on higher end products like the 850. In that price range hand holding, like AP is expected. There is a large, up front, cost that will take lots of money to put in place.

Bringing a technology company back from the brink is a costly endeavor that, in this case, shows little hope for return on investment.

Better an established company should buy Meade, pare back the product line to a supportable and profitable few lines and let the brand work its way back to prominence slowly but surely.

As a head to head competitor to Celestron across all product lines, I don't see it happening any time soon.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | >> (show all)


Extra information
17 registered and 32 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Cotts, Starman27, kkokkolis 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 63066

Jump to

CN Forums Home


Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics