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General Astronomy >> General Observing and Astronomy

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Cotts
Just Wondering
*****

Reged: 10/10/05

Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: orion61]
      #5954554 - 07/04/13 10:19 AM

Quote:

Quote:

As we have seen moving out to the country is not always a solution because there are a fair share of weirdos there as well. Just figure their motivation why they are out there away from people in the first place, many of them are anti this and that to the ridiculous and especially get stranger when they have to follow a rule or two.




Wow that is the single most offensive thing I have ever heard! I can tell you are a city boy, and have never even met someone living in the country who supplies the Food you eat.
I have lived in both places and can attest the Country folks
are a lot more "normal" per 100 than most my City Neighbors I have lived by in the city, They also work longer and harder hours than simply 9to5, and do not get nearly the thanks or credit from the people they feed and cloth during their 70 plus hour work weeks...




Some City people think Rural folks are unsophisticated, backward, ignorant rednecks. Some Rural folks think City people are rude, self-centered, arrogant know-it-alls.

Of course, the above is complete hogwash. These sorts of character flaws are found everywhere.

Dave


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vsteblina
sage


Reged: 11/05/07

Loc: Wenatchee, Washington
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Cotts]
      #5954671 - 07/04/13 12:10 PM

For those of you looking for rural property without the fear of bright rural lights......find communities off-the-grid. There are lots of them throughout the United States....1.5 million people's worth.

Solar and wind power does not generate enough power to leave outside lights on at night. So the areas are dark at night.

The other advantage these communities tend to get rid of the rif-raf they form HOA's. Also you might a lot more interesting people.


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: REC]
      #5954740 - 07/04/13 01:05 PM

Quote:

Carol, what's your address, I want to come and visit you

Bob




Well, I do have 20 acres, so there's room!


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mark379
sage
*****

Reged: 02/07/09

Loc: New Jersey
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: okieav8r]
      #5954963 - 07/04/13 03:58 PM

Quote:

It's hard to get away from such neighbors. It seems every neighborhood has one or two who want to light up the rest of the neighborhood. So that's why I'm actively looking for 10 acres in the country. Means a longer commute to work and to see family and friends, but it also means peace and quiet and an environment more conducive for astronomy.




Amen !

I'm plsnning the same thing in the 5 year plan...


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REC
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/20/10

Loc: NC
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5955045 - 07/04/13 05:32 PM

Awesome Carol, have a Happy 4th!

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BigC
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 09/29/10

Loc: SE Indiana
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Cotts]
      #5955134 - 07/04/13 06:52 PM

I think we remember the lousy meal at a restaraunt with more clarity than the many good ones;so too with people.

But in general,I find rural people less likely to want or need "official" approval of once common things like clotheslines,doghouses,and working on one's own car in one's driveway.

The recent cartoon in the daily paper of a man calling the police to report his neighbor blowing grass clipping into the gutter is indicative of the busybody.

Nearly everyone for miles around here has at least one insecurity light;it is the people who moved out from the city that have two and three.What is the accepted norm in one place is un-needed in another.

Diversity.


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Herr General
member


Reged: 06/20/13

Loc: Ohio
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: BigC]
      #5955360 - 07/04/13 10:51 PM

As someone who has never owned a house and probably won't for a while yet: I've already heard so many horror stories that I would never consider living anywhere with a HOA.

I'd definitely love to live in the country, somewhere I can get dark skies and few people to bother me- but that also means slower internet and long trips to meet friends. Gotta make tradeoffs for a pipe dream, I suppose.


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Joe F Gafford
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/15/06

Loc: Denver, Colorado, US
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Herr General]
      #5955382 - 07/04/13 11:10 PM

I own my own house and HOAs were fairly new when I bought it. The problem back then were the covenants that was attached to your property. My concern back then was that some covenants abolished large antennas such as CB and Ham radio antennas. My covenants did not contain those things.

There is an HOA in the neighborhood that abuts mine that does not allow anything that protrudes over your fence, including the tall annual garden sunflowers! If you want a small observatory or even a pad, a lot of those HOAs will not allow this. What I gather over the years that the officers of such places as HOAs would not be elected Dog Catcher otherwise.

Joe


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bunyon
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/23/10

Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Herr General]
      #5955684 - 07/05/13 08:14 AM

I say this as someone who would hate living in an HOA but they have a rationale. A lot of neighbors can be a nuisance. If you're the kind of person that wants to live in a relatively uniform tract and doesn't want the risk (or wants to lower the risk) of eyesores such as cars rusting out in the lawn, the infamous lawn toilet or loud or junky homes, then an HOA makes sense. It's just that by choosing that you give up some control of your property.

You really have to decide: is the ability to do with your land what you want worth the risk that your neighbor will as well? Is the ability to have a say in how your neighbor lives worth allowing others say in how you live?

I've lived next to some awful neighbors - loud, dirty, profane, etc. It isn't fun. At those times it's tempting to latch onto an HOA. And many HOAs are fairly reasonable. But if you are in one that isn't, that is also terrible.

Risk/reward, as always.

Oh, the other thing about covenants is that it requires someone to, essentially, sue. So the rules may be as restrictive as an HOA but there is no mechanism of enforcement other than going to civil authorities which is expensive. Our covenants actually state that the garage door can't be open except as cars are going in and out. No one observes this rule, of course. One neighbor tried to push it, for some reason, and was told (not by me, though I heard it) that she could sue and he would represent himself up until the point that a court date was set and fees due and then he'd close the door. It would cost her a lot in fees and time and him not much. I don't know how much was bluff but she hasn't bothered anyone about it since. Her door is open as much as anyone.

Basically, if you have nice neighbors (and are nice yourself) things work with or without an HOA. If you don't, it won't.

Quote:

As someone who has never owned a house and probably won't for a while yet: I've already heard so many horror stories that I would never consider living anywhere with a HOA.

I'd definitely love to live in the country, somewhere I can get dark skies and few people to bother me- but that also means slower internet and long trips to meet friends. Gotta make tradeoffs for a pipe dream, I suppose.




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amicus sidera
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/14/11

Loc: East of the Sun, West of the M...
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Cotts]
      #5955738 - 07/05/13 09:16 AM

Quote:

Cautionary tale: A former teaching colleague of mine bought a rural property as a weekend and summer retreat for birdwatching and nature photography. He had the place for at least ten years with no problem until one day when he caught a local man hunting on his property. My colleague had the man charged by the OPP and there was a conviction and a fine imposed. One week later while my friend was in Toronto at his teaching job, thieves backed a truck up to his house and emptied it to the four walls. They took everything down to the toilet paper in the bathroom, pictures on the wall, food in the cupboards etc. When he went up the next weekend he saw the truck wheel marks in the driveway and his house was empty except for a piece of paper which had the message, "Go Back To Toronto" written on it. No one was ever charged for the theft. He sold the place soon after.




That's pretty rough, but also odd in its own way, considering he'd had the place so long. Had he not formed friendships or alliances with any of the nearby people in that entire time, who might have then been prone to keep an eye on his place during the week? While I realize that he was certainly under no obligation to do so, it is an unfortunate fact that it pays dividends to make nice with the locals, especially in rural areas; even more so when one is basically a weekend resident and thus more-or-less an outsider, for all intents and purposes.

While he was well within his rights to press the issue with the hunter, sometimes the exercise of certain rights is best tempered with practical considerations if one wishes to avoid unintended consequences. While it goes without saying that burgling a man's property for the sake of revenge is absolutely inexcusable, some form of tit-for-tat repercussion was almost a certainty, given the circumstances (after all, the man involved received a criminal conviction, along with almost certain loss of hunting privileges for some time).

Considering that the victim in this instance was a teacher, wouldn't one would be inclined to assume that he would have been of sufficient intelligence to anticipate such retaliation? I guess it all depends...considering that the majority of educators which I've run into over the years seem to be of a decidely progressive persuasion who generally despise hunting and guns, and tend to assume that country folk are somewhat backwards and stupid, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the possibility of blowback never crossed his mind.

The moral of this story might well be: forgive, insofar as is possible, the trespasses of others; it can save one considerable grief.

Fred


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Herr General]
      #5955782 - 07/05/13 09:57 AM

Quote:

but that also means slower internet




That depends on where you are. I'm on DSL, and fiber optics will be available in the next couple of months.


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5955792 - 07/05/13 10:07 AM

Quote:

Considering that the victim in this instance was a teacher, wouldn't one would be inclined to assume that he would have been of sufficient intelligence to anticipate such retaliation? I guess it all depends...considering that the majority of educators which I've run into over the years seem to be of a decidely progressive persuasion who generally despise hunting and guns, and tend to assume that country folk are somewhat backwards and stupid, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the possibility of blowback never crossed his mind.




I don't think his vocation has anything to do with him having this person charged. If we have to worry about retaliation for everytime we do something we feel is the right thing to do, it will certainly be sad. I don't know what locale you are in; but the majority of educators I've known, and I'm sure others have; do not have this "country folk" mentality; and we certainly do not know what this teacher's opinion is.

Would I have had the tresspasser charged? No, I would have had a pleasant discussion with him, asking him not to hunt on the property in the future. If he continued, then I might take the path this person did.


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BigC
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 09/29/10

Loc: SE Indiana
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Herr General]
      #5955836 - 07/05/13 10:32 AM

"I'd definitely love to live in the country, somewhere I can get dark skies and few people to bother me- but that also means slower internet and long trips to meet friends. Gotta make tradeoffs for a pipe dream, I suppose."

I,,and my neighbors,on a gravel backroad got DSL in 2004 ;while people living in two nearby towns served by state highways had dial-up only,and they were served by a much larger phone company!One of my friends still cannot get DSL despite his location near to town .Different provider area.Fiber optic was buried HERE last summer.Up to 100Mps is available.Monthly fees based on bandwidth package.

Living rural does add significant drive time to every errand and get-together.For those with serious health issues it can mean the ambulance will arrive 20 or 30 minutes after a 9-1-1 call ,so it is something to consider.

Trade-offs are part of every choice.

Beware of buying an acre of some big flat field only to find six other people also bought adjoining acre and every one of them install big bright lights like they were used to in the city.

Orientation of the roads and land are important. If you can find a spot where it is reasonably certain no one will build anything in the direction you expect to observe that will be a big plus.I'd think a bit of land on the southern end of a ridge would be good.If the potential light sources are only homes to the north it should allow a lot of good viewing.


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FirstSight
Duke of Deneb
*****

Reged: 12/26/05

Loc: Raleigh, NC
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5955868 - 07/05/13 10:47 AM

I live in a neighborhood with an HOA, and fortunately the people serving on the main board have so far been reasonable, pleasant folks vastly more focused on common-area maintenance budgetary issues and intermittent problems with petty crime (rash of break-ins into people's cars in driveways, teenage vandalism at pool, etc) than with patrolling the neighborhood for petty violations of rules about homes and yards. The party who's most likely to spot and raise homeowner rules violations issues before them isn't homeowners, but the management company on contract to actually do routine maintenance e.g of pool, flowerbeds, etc. THE LEGAL DILEMMA the board faces with such violations is whether knowingly failing to address a particular violation, seemingly petty and harmless unto itself, has potential to create an unintentionally much broader waiver that could insulate a far more egregious violation of the same general class from being dealt with. The dynamic even a HOA board comprised of otherwise reasonable-to-deal-with board members are therefore placed in is their personal inclination to be accommodating, versus pressure from the management company and sometimes one or two lay petty busybodies warning that failing to deal with the alleged violation is opening the path to Hell, complete with junked cars and dilapidated torn sofas on the front lawn.

I could easily build an observatory compliant with the rules, which would easily gain any needed approvals, provided I built it of similar style to the main house (a roll-off observatory could easily be designed to comply)...the biggest problem I'd have would be the rule against cutting down trees larger than 4" in diameter without HOA approval. Neither the purpose of that rule nor its enforcement-in-fact are intended to prevent cutting down individual trees when diseased, or they become safety/nuisance hazards, or simply for the overall health of the surrounding trees, but rather intended to preserve the neighborhood's leafy character against anyone who would dramatically change their lot by gross clear-cutting.

OTOH, there are no rules against my sitting out in my driveway with either of my telescopes, whether at midnight or at 4am, whether bundled in warm clothes in winter or in my pajamas in mild weather. In fact, I kind of wish my being out there with telescope provoked more, rather than less, interest from my neighbors, who seem entirely content to let me be with this activity by night, without any signs of inclination to regard me by day as some sort of oddball. I still get invited to my very straight-laced next-door-neighbor's Christmas party every year, but perhaps my threat to sit out in my driveway and play my "Greatest Hits of Yodeling" CD at full volume if she didn't has something to do with getting that invite :=)

Edited by FirstSight (07/05/13 06:49 PM)


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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5955886 - 07/05/13 10:57 AM

The "Greatest Hits of Yodeling, Volume 3" is the best of the series....

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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5955977 - 07/05/13 11:50 AM



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JoeR
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 03/07/10

Loc: Columbus, OH
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5956025 - 07/05/13 12:28 PM

I've given up on home observing. Not that it was ever really great in a red zone but even lunar planetary observing is difficult. The condo association is the typical paranoid types that send out newsletters urging residents to keep all their outdoor lights on at all times. They also installed insanely bright flood light around the common areas. Plus I need privacy when I observe and I never get that here with the constant flow of traffic and dog walkers and beer porch parties. So even a 1 mile drive to a city park in a white zone is worth the effort. Someday I may escape this hole but not likely sine the value took a staggering dive. After 10 years the condo is now worth less than what I owe on it.

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amicus sidera
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/14/11

Loc: East of the Sun, West of the M...
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5957616 - 07/06/13 02:13 PM

Quote:

I don't think his vocation has anything to do with him having this person charged. If we have to worry about retaliation for everytime we do something we feel is the right thing to do, it will certainly be sad. I don't know what locale you are in; but the majority of educators I've known, and I'm sure others have; do not have this "country folk" mentality; and we certainly do not know what this teacher's opinion is.




Just evoking the possibility, Carol; living on the outskirts of what amounts to one big metropolitan area which covers all or parts of seven states, my experience has been that the majority of educators hereabouts do not subscribe to the same values that the majority of rural folk do. Should one have the possibility of retaliation foremost in one's mind when doing what one feels is right? No, but unless the problem one encounters is of a sudden, split-second nature, it would be the part of wisdom to temper one's response after judging the situation.

Perhaps the individual who laid charges on that hunter, and started that chain of events that ended so badly, takes solace from knowing that he acted fully within his rights; however, methinks that, upon reflection, he would much rather have defused the situation.

Quote:

Would I have had the tresspasser charged? No, I would have had a pleasant discussion with him, asking him not to hunt on the property in the future. If he continued, then I might take the path this person did.




Very reasonable... that would have been my course of action, also.

Fred


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amicus sidera
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/14/11

Loc: East of the Sun, West of the M...
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: JoeR]
      #5957630 - 07/06/13 02:24 PM

Quote:

I've given up on home observing. Not that it was ever really great in a red zone but even lunar planetary observing is difficult. The condo association is the typical paranoid types that send out newsletters urging residents to keep all their outdoor lights on at all times. They also installed insanely bright flood light around the common areas. Plus I need privacy when I observe and I never get that here with the constant flow of traffic and dog walkers and beer porch parties. So even a 1 mile drive to a city park in a white zone is worth the effort. Someday I may escape this hole but not likely sine the value took a staggering dive. After 10 years the condo is now worth less than what I owe on it.




Sorry to hear that you're upside-down on your condo; I've known of several folks in that situation. I can only imagine the hellishness of being faced with the prison-grade lighting that such places tend to encourage, as well as neighbors who most likely have never looked up once in their lives, metaphorically speaking. Hope that you get out as soon as is humanly possible; such environs can really drain one's soul, and must also be a difficult environment in which to be creative.

Sometimes it's best to just walk away and take what lumps one has to, rather than stay in an insanely intolerable situation.

Fred


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Mike B
Starstruck
*****

Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5957852 - 07/06/13 04:49 PM

Quote:

... that would have been my course of action, also.




Quote:

Where I own my country home, that would be a violation of an unwritten convention. It's sort of assumed that people can go onto their neighbors' land for legitimate purposes, which certainly includes hunting.

Obviously, it's polite to ask permission first. But when I catch somebody hunting on my land or my neighbor's land, I speak to them nicely, find out about their credentials, and if necessary, ask them politely to leave.



I'm sure this varies from place to place, but i think what i'm hearing Tony say is that, "if necessary, ask them to leave" might also be understood as the opposite, in a better scenario: if NOT necessary that they leave, they're fine to continue as they are.

If that home & property had been fine for the months or years prior to his purchase of it, with the locals hunting therein, then perhaps the situation wasn't "broken", nor in need of a "fix"?

In some ways this situation reminds me of the vulnerability one has with their food preparers & handlers while at a restaurant... FAR better to curry favor, and treat respectfully those who care for your food, than to pull rank & insist on your rights; you may get them... perhaps with flavor added.

So approaching the local hunter on your land, pleasantly inquiring about his rifle or ammo choice, experience, sharing stories, etc. might lead to some extra venison, pork, or quail, by surprise!


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