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General Astronomy >> General Observing and Astronomy

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AstroTatDad
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 04/22/13

Loc: Los Angeles - San Diego
The battle with HOA has began.
      #5940526 - 06/25/13 09:38 PM

We own are condo, but is pretty much ran by HOA (FUN) a few days ago we got a letter from HOA stating that I need to remove "the observatory" LOL ok! I have a PVC frame with black materiel that is used to block light from the people next door and the pool area which the lights are on all night long. I told HOA I will take it down when they start to follow the CITY rules! I looked in to it through the county of San Diego and the pool area lights are to be off at 11:00PM according to San Diego County.

These lights are so bad that they light are bedroom up on the 2nd floor. My front viewing area would be a very great area to observe, we live right on red/orange zone. The front faces North/East and some East/South. If the pool area lights were off it would be great viewing, because to the east there is NO lights hardly and not that far east is a green zone.

So I sent HOA all the info I found from the county, we told them if it is not changed we will get a hold of the board which they will have to change it, so we are trying to be cool.

Also LOL get this, They will start to fine us for having the light blockers up. This is crazy, I know its the people next door too! They know we are out observing, just 2 months ago he put in a BIG ghetto light that lights up all are area in front of our place. This is why I made the light blockers, with out the light blockers I can't even use the scopes out there

So yeah, guess we will see what happens.. can't wait to move out of here.

Anyone else dealing with something like this? You should look in to it, because we can do something about it. If you live in San Diego check this out http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/pds/docs/LightPollutionCode.pdf I'm sure it's the same almost anywhere like this in the US. It don't hurt to look in to it, if your dealing with something like this.

I will keep you guys posted

Edited by AstroTatDad (06/25/13 09:47 PM)


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SkyGibbon
super member


Reged: 02/09/13

Loc: Las Vegas, Nevada
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: AstroTatDad]
      #5940603 - 06/25/13 10:38 PM

HOAs are pathetic.

That is all


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Rick Woods
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: SkyGibbon]
      #5940626 - 06/25/13 10:51 PM

I've never understood why anyone would willingly put themselves under a HOA's control. As I understand it, they can actually take your house, if push comes to shove...

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AstroTatDad
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 04/22/13

Loc: Los Angeles - San Diego
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5940634 - 06/25/13 10:55 PM

agree Rick, my girlfriend has lived here for 10 years, I moved in about 8 months ago. I'm helping her get rid of this place so we can buy a house when we get married. We are hoping to have all this done by next summer. And yes I will be building an observatory. I'm counting the days.

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Achernar
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: AstroTatDad]
      #5940653 - 06/25/13 11:15 PM

I have the same problem with a neighbor leaving bright floods on all day, all night, every day. I am about to put up light blockers that can be put up and taken down at will along my side of the fence. At least I don't have a control freak run by small minded people HOA to deal with. I wish you luck in getting out of that hellhole neighborhood. In the meantime, you could make and use light blockers that can be disassembled and stored when not in use just to tweak your very rude neighbor and the HOA. As far as I am concerned, what they are doing is infringing on your personal space and liberty. I would not stand for that.

Taras


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zonamav
journeyman
*

Reged: 06/01/13

Loc: southern arizona
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5940696 - 06/25/13 11:55 PM

Quote:

I've never understood why anyone would willingly put themselves under a HOA's control. As I understand it, they can actually take your house, if push comes to shove...




Well depending on your region, its possible that most affordable housing whether it be condos or homes are part of a HOA so there isn't a choice. Or the rare affordable neighborhoods that aren't part of an HOA, are sometimes a dump because people don't take care of their neighborhood.

But back to the topic at hand, I would try to create something removable that can be broken down and reassembled. Not optimal, but hopefully workable.

Or go nuclear, and turn in your HOA to the city for complaints about breaking the light pollution. First I would try all alternative solutions first though.


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okieav8rAdministrator
I'd rather be flying!
*****

Reged: 03/01/09

Loc: Oklahoma!
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Achernar]
      #5940697 - 06/25/13 11:55 PM

It's hard to get away from such neighbors. It seems every neighborhood has one or two who want to light up the rest of the neighborhood. So that's why I'm actively looking for 10 acres in the country. Means a longer commute to work and to see family and friends, but it also means peace and quiet and an environment more conducive for astronomy.

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CharlesW
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/02/12

Loc: Chula Vista & Indio, CA
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: okieav8r]
      #5940699 - 06/26/13 12:01 AM

I just took a look at the county's publication that advises people concerning public pools. http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/deh/water/pdf/publications_poolop377.pdf
It looks like your HOA is mandated to leave the lights on from sunset to sunrise. I'm not sure you'll get any traction on that issue.


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Raginar
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 10/19/10

Loc: Rapid CIty, SD
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: CharlesW]
      #5940829 - 06/26/13 01:56 AM

Use the IDA and look into the City's regulations on light pollution. If there aren't any rules (doubtful, it' California), go to your city board meetings and get it changes. You need to be involved in your HOA as well. This is the time to go on the offensive and use your knowledge to educate others on what you're trying to do.

Finally, get to know the jerk next door. Some times this stuff can be finished as easily as saying hey, you wanna have a beer and take a look at the moon?


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AstroTatDad
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 04/22/13

Loc: Los Angeles - San Diego
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Raginar]
      #5940851 - 06/26/13 02:44 AM

thanks guys, yeah I'm gonna talk to my neb 2 doors down he has lived here for 20 years. He has a few goto scopes, 12" and 20" dob. he said he has been over it and tried talking to them. So he just uses his smaller scopes out back and takes his bigger scopes to the dark spot which is about 35 mins away.

I'm just going to be in the back as well, it's dark and have no lights and just start going to are dark site more often.

By the way, my light blockers I made I set up around 7:30 - 8:00pm then when I'm done I take it down. there not even left out side I put them in the garage. so that is why I think it's the guy next door that complained.

The area we live in is a good area, but there is a lot of older people around, there always complaining about the kids playing "in the day" lol. I just don't think they like us, lol.

But it's cool, we are getting ready to sale this place and buy a house away from here. The area we have been looking is away from the city and is in a green zone. Plus we will only be 15mins away from our dark site. so it will all work out in about a year. for now I guess I will have to deal.

thanks everyone.


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celtictexan
member


Reged: 04/02/13

Loc: Amarillo Texas
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: SkyGibbon]
      #5940907 - 06/26/13 04:59 AM

Quote:

HOAs are pathetic.

That is all




+1


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celtictexan
member


Reged: 04/02/13

Loc: Amarillo Texas
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: CharlesW]
      #5940909 - 06/26/13 05:04 AM

Quote:

I just took a look at the county's publication that advises people concerning public pools. http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/deh/water/pdf/publications_poolop377.pdf
It looks like your HOA is mandated to leave the lights on from sunset to sunrise. I'm not sure you'll get any traction on that issue.




I bought a place in the country, someone else moved in 5 acres down from me. First he puts this giant 5 globe front light in then puts a big mercury vapor light on his shop. Looks like the sun stayed up around him. I use to could set up anywhere now I have to hide behind my shop or be blinded from the side. People that are scared of the dark should stay in the city.


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jgraham
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 12/02/04

Loc: Miami Valley Astronomical Soci...
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: celtictexan]
      #5940983 - 06/26/13 07:38 AM

Hmmm, does the HOA have anything against trees? Nice, dense, fast growing poplar trees. Privet hedges grow pretty fast as well. Strategically placed forsythia may also be effective. Stagger them so that they look random, but provide line of sight shade. Last, but not least, temporary light shades, put'm up when you observe, take'm down when you are done.

Juat a thought...


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Smittty692k4
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 07/05/11

Loc: East Bernard, TX
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: celtictexan]
      #5940986 - 06/26/13 07:46 AM

While I'm not in HOA's control, my neighbor's lights blind me sometimes as well. The worst is when they have to take their little poodle/chihuahua/terrier thing outside at like 11pm to make "tink-tink" or potty or whatever they ungodly call it after my dark adaption has hit high gear.

My other neighbor is a 4th grade science teacher. He understands.

Regardless, I have no qualms about calling/texting/knockin on their door asking if then can turn off their driveway light that so lovingly lights up my driveway where I observe.


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Escher
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 08/30/07

Loc: Fenton, MI
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: jgraham]
      #5940987 - 06/26/13 07:49 AM

I dont understand how a temporary structure can even be an issue... any chance you can post the verbiage from the HOA rulebook? I mean if you are only using the blockers for a couple of hours periodically, then whats the issue?

I'd be looking for a loophole really hard... and making friends with the HOA - buying them donuts at meetings, etc...

I lucked out with my POD - the city folks thought it was interesting and the Gentleman who issues variances actually helped redraw my lot plan and told me how to set the POD up to avoid issues with lot lines and line of sight, etc.....


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bumm
sage


Reged: 01/07/11

Loc: Iowa
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: celtictexan]
      #5941034 - 06/26/13 08:34 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I just took a look at the county's publication that advises people concerning public pools. http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/deh/water/pdf/publications_poolop377.pdf
It looks like your HOA is mandated to leave the lights on from sunset to sunrise. I'm not sure you'll get any traction on that issue.




I bought a place in the country, someone else moved in 5 acres down from me. First he puts this giant 5 globe front light in then puts a big mercury vapor light on his shop. Looks like the sun stayed up around him. I use to could set up anywhere now I have to hide behind my shop or be blinded from the side. People that are scared of the dark should stay in the city.




If I ever move, it would be to a spot out in the country, but THIS possibility is my main fear in making such a move. I've read of this happening many times, and have seen instances where such things developed. Someone builds out in a dark area, then a neighbor with a fear of the dark moves across the road. Same thing happens with shooting ranges... City folks move nearby, then want to shut down the range, which was there long before they came. Why do people move into a rural area, then want to turn it into a city environment???
Marty


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csrlice12
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: bumm]
      #5941042 - 06/26/13 08:39 AM

Hey, we don't want no sciency stuff here, all we need is a pool and something to drink, and lots of light to watch all the ladies at the pool............then this guy goes and puts up all this plastic blocking my view...

Thank You....your local HOA


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tezster
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 07/14/09

Loc: Missisauga, Canada
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: AstroTatDad]
      #5941066 - 06/26/13 08:56 AM

I live in a row townhouse, which effectively runs like a condo with a board. There can be a very large grey area in terms of what is and isn't allowed. And as most people who live in these type of communities come to realize, enforcement of the rules is driven by complaints: if there are no complaints, then no one could care less. Being on good terms with one's neighbours is extremely important in these type of environments.

Yes, it's restrictive, but this is the reality people who live in condos have to live with.

There is simply no way for me to observe DSOs anywhere around my home (I would need to wear a blindfold to block out all the stray light), so I have resigned myself to lunar/planetary observing from my patio.

Having said that, I think it's strange that you would get a letter to take down your 'observatory' when you only have it up temporarily. At first, I was thinking maybe you have the PVC structure up all the time? And simply attach the fabric/tarp up to the frame when you're observing, but this doesn't seem to be the case. I don't see how they can enforce this particular rule - what can they do when they come around to inspect your unit during the day and you don't have it up?


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shawnhar
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/25/10

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5941093 - 06/26/13 09:14 AM

HOA's are the devil.
Went through the same thing, even the "children are not allowed to play except in designated areas at designated times".
Never again.
Rules against starting a pig farm I can understand, telling me I have to park my car 2 blocks away while I repair something on it or that my patio furniture was too close to the back door, etc......grrrrr HATE them.

Edited by tecmage (06/27/13 06:59 PM)


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galexand
sage
*****

Reged: 07/10/12

Loc: Bloomington Indiana
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: AstroTatDad]
      #5941112 - 06/26/13 09:38 AM

I'm real opposed to HOAs, and I'm just obnoxious enough I would personally be flooding the organization with legalese nastygrams.

But some advice, if you want to actually win, and you know which neighbor...might help to just bring the guy some cookies or a nice cigar or some imported coffee...you know, sit down and have a chat like friends. Depends on how much time and patience you have.


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Escher
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 08/30/07

Loc: Fenton, MI
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: tezster]
      #5941123 - 06/26/13 09:47 AM

Quote:


There is simply no way for me to observe DSOs anywhere around my home (I would need to wear a blindfold to block out all the stray light), so I have resigned myself to lunar/planetary observing from my patio.





I have observed from my front yard - directly under a sodium street light... By using a towel as a hood.

Sure - you look nutz, but who cares - it works!


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CharlesW
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/02/12

Loc: Chula Vista & Indio, CA
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: galexand]
      #5941129 - 06/26/13 09:51 AM

I had a similar problem at my Chula Vista house; extremely bright floodlight behind me. When new renters moved in, two nice navy guys, all it took was a 24 pack of Heinekin to solve the problem.

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mich_al
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/10/09

Loc: Rural central lower Michigan ...
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: celtictexan]
      #5941145 - 06/26/13 10:04 AM

Quote:


I bought a place in the country, someone else moved in 5 acres down from me. First he puts this giant 5 globe front light in then puts a big mercury vapor light on his shop. Looks like the sun stayed up around him. I use to could set up anywhere now I have to hide behind my shop or be blinded from the side. People that are scared of the dark should stay in the city.




+1


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: The battle with HOA has began. *DELETED* new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5941147 - 06/26/13 10:08 AM

Post deleted by droid

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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: mich_al]
      #5941148 - 06/26/13 10:08 AM

not to mention he feels he's doing YOU a favor lighting up your property...on his dime, no less.....

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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: The battle with HOA has began. *DELETED* new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5941157 - 06/26/13 10:13 AM

Post deleted by tecmage

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amicus sidera
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/14/11

Loc: East of the Sun, West of the M...
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5941192 - 06/26/13 10:34 AM

Threats, empty or otherwise, are not the method by which civilized people conduct relations with their neighbors. The very first step should be in the manner of a friendly request; if the situation remains intractable, there is always recourse to the courts... and ultimately, a moving company.

Life is too short to engage in hostilities unless there is absolutely no other option; ask any (real) combat veteran.

Fred


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t.r.
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 02/14/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: celtictexan]
      #5941196 - 06/26/13 10:40 AM

Quote:

Quote:

HOAs are pathetic.

That is all




+1




+2:p

Edited by tecmage (06/27/13 07:18 PM)


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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5941203 - 06/26/13 10:43 AM

"Life is too short to engage in hostilities unless there is absolutely no other option"

Not according to the history books I've seen.......sorry, that's just the way of the world. There's always someone out there who just enjoys making others miserable.....and setting back and doing nothing in effect condones their actions.....it also all depends on how you define "options".


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shawnhar
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/25/10

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5941205 - 06/26/13 10:43 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

So mad I threatened the hoa president, in a real pulp fiction kinda way, like with plastic and bleach.





You are very fortunate that charges were not brought against you. Threatening a person is something no one should do.




One should never threaten anyone, but setting around having a few beers you might mention your stint in Whereverstan where your job was, well, meeting new and interesting people, and killing them......



I know I know, and I am not that kind of person. Things had reached a boiling point and I lost it. I won't go into the details, but it was probably the most angry I have ever been, we didn't even do anything, just victims of an insane hoa president 2 doors down with no life except to make other people miserable. No civilized discourse was possible.
That's when we decided we would never be subjected to that again.
- Now we have redneck neighbors with guns!


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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5941214 - 06/26/13 10:50 AM

Then do a neighborly thing like feed the birds. Just sprinkle bird seed all over HIS balcony frequently. The birds will love it, and he gets to hose down his balcony frequently, keeping it clean according to HOA policies....Never take actions that would harm anyone, but sometimes the old phrase "Don't get mad, get even" has its place.....Unless the HOA has rules against feeding birds....

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Mike B
Starstruck
*****

Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Escher]
      #5941237 - 06/26/13 11:01 AM

Quote:

...you know, sit down and have a chat like friends. Depends on how much time and patience you have.



Also depends on the mindset of the neighbor who has registered the complaints. From what i've seen, much of this comes about fueled by the joy of control; give some people control over things beyond their "normal" range of influence, and it's like a drug addiction! I've seen this influence in sooo many design-review board sessions that i could scream.

It afflicts "design professionals" as well; i watched with great sadness as a design review board, comprised of local Architects, with one acting as a pack-leader, descended upon the design documents at a public hearing for a retired couple's dream home. It was a feeding frenzy, resulting in the couple walking out, the man's arm around his wife's shoulders, her sobbing in tears.

Your typical HOA is comprised of random people who live there, and know little-to-nothing of land use & property rights issues... they just know what they can control, and do so with great zeal. Your typical design review board might be comprised of "design professionals" who know quite a bit about land use issues, environmental issues, and aesthetics... and they also know what they can control, and do so with education & experience... and frequently with great zeal, as well.

Personally, i don't have much use for either. And i'm a "design professional" myself.

Quote:

Sure - you look nutz, but who cares...



A few control-nazi's on na HOA, that's who.


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Mike B
Starstruck
*****

Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5941251 - 06/26/13 11:06 AM

Quote:

Threats, empty or otherwise, are not the method by which civilized people conduct relations with their neighbors.



Yes, i think we'd all (mostly) agree on that. However, when failure to comply with their nazi-control impulses leads to threats of fines and other nasties, where did civilized conduct go?


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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Mike B]
      #5941273 - 06/26/13 11:17 AM

"Threats, empty or otherwise, are not the method by which civilized people conduct relations with their neighbors."

Thus the fall of numerous civilizations throughout our history.........


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Jarrod
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 01/20/13

Loc: SE USA
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Mike B]
      #5941292 - 06/26/13 11:30 AM

My neighbor likes to leave their megawatt driveway light on all night, which is about 30 feet from my primary observing spot. We are on good terms, so I would just call them on a clear dusk and tell them I was planning to use my scope tonight and could they please turn off the light. If they didn't answer their phone, I knocked on the door. After 5 or 6 times, they realized it must really be bothering me because the light hasn't been left on at night since.

My stance is that asking for a simple little favor like this from your neighbor every week or so is preferable to building a light block and potentially giving *them* something to complain about. If they are stubborn, then sure it's the only option. But you might be surprised to find that your neighbors are cooperative and ultimately have no desire to hinder your freedom to use your property as you desire, once they realize precisely what you are up to over there at 3am.


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bunyon
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/23/10

Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5941295 - 06/26/13 11:32 AM

It sort of sounds like the neighbor complained about an "observatory" and the HOA folks didn't even come to take a look. So, the fact that it's temporary isn't a factor - they haven't seen your property. Perhaps I misinterpret. But if you aren't sure if they've been out for a look, invite them. Tell them you want to clear any trouble up so could them come tell you where the violation is. Be sure that when they come, the "observatory" is not up. If they say it all looks fine, just say something about your neighbor not liking you and harassing you - that may get them to ignore future complaints from him.

In other words, come off as the good guy to his bad guy.

If that doesn't work, (I've told this story before), I had a friend who responded to a neighbor's floods that shown in his bedroom by installing his own, to shine in their bedroom. It worked, the neighbors took theirs down. I'm completely on board that one shouldn't threaten others. But one shouldn't rely only on politely asking, either.

If the guy is really obnoxious, find something within the rules that will annoy him. Then do it. A lot.

EDIT: My post sounds a little inflammatory - I also completely agree trying to make friends is the best route. But if good faith efforts to be friendly fail, and then being a polite rule-abider don't work, one must step up the game. One failure to polite civilization is that it often lets the obnoxious and recalcitrant win, which isn't good for society either.

Edited by bunyon (06/26/13 11:34 AM)


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Fuzzyguy
professor emeritus


Reged: 12/21/11

Loc: Colorado/Kansas
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5941299 - 06/26/13 11:35 AM

You might try putting up a patio table with an umbrella. I've got one that makes a great light block for the street light across the road. My HOA hasn't said a word in over 25 years I've had it. Although the umbrella itself will probably not block the light entirely, with a little creativity and some lightweight opaque material you can make the umbrella pretty light tight and no one will know the difference. It's also easy up and easy down.



Good luck!


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csrlice12
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: bunyon]
      #5941323 - 06/26/13 11:52 AM

Quote:

It sort of sounds like the neighbor complained about an "observatory" and the HOA folks didn't even come to take a look. So, the fact that it's temporary isn't a factor - they haven't seen your property. Perhaps I misinterpret. But if you aren't sure if they've been out for a look, invite them. Tell them you want to clear any trouble up so could them come tell you where the violation is. Be sure that when they come, the "observatory" is not up. If they say it all looks fine, just say something about your neighbor not liking you and harassing you - that may get them to ignore future complaints from him.

In other words, come off as the good guy to his bad guy.

If that doesn't work, (I've told this story before), I had a friend who responded to a neighbor's floods that shown in his bedroom by installing his own, to shine in their bedroom. It worked, the neighbors took theirs down. I'm completely on board that one shouldn't threaten others. But one shouldn't rely only on politely asking, either.

If the guy is really obnoxious, find something within the rules that will annoy him. Then do it. A lot.

EDIT: My post sounds a little inflammatory - I also completely agree trying to make friends is the best route. But if good faith efforts to be friendly fail, and then being a polite rule-abider don't work, one must step up the game. One failure to polite civilization is that it often lets the obnoxious and recalcitrant win, which isn't good for society either.




Except in one of his entries, the OP stated the neighbor WAS the president of the HOA....


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bunyon
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Reged: 10/23/10

Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5941333 - 06/26/13 12:03 PM

Quote: Except in one of his entries, the OP stated the neighbor WAS the president of the HOA....


I missed that.

I suspect moving is your only option.


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Mike B
Starstruck
*****

Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5941351 - 06/26/13 12:19 PM

Quote:

Except in one of his entries, the OP stated the neighbor WAS the president of the HOA....



Actually, i think that post might've been someone else's? I just re-read the thread, and the OP "suspects" it is a next-door-neighbor who "complained"... i don't think the NDN is the actual HOA prez. If he was, then yes- the goose is pretty well cooked.

Fortunately, there appears to be a move designed in the near future, intentionally, coupled with a li'l wedded bliss! Can't think of a better "solution" myself.


One question remains: Under current CA real estate law, concerning "disclosures", must one disclose for a real estate transaction that their HOA is run by control-freaks & pernicious busy-bodies? Or does this fall under "naturally occurring", like smelly skunks & air pollution?


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t.r.
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Reged: 02/14/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Mike B]
      #5941357 - 06/26/13 12:23 PM

Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
~Abraham Lincoln


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csrlice12
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: t.r.]
      #5941377 - 06/26/13 12:40 PM



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Achernar
Postmaster
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Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: okieav8r]
      #5941386 - 06/26/13 12:45 PM

I know, that is why I am thinking of a way to build better light blockers that are higher and stronger than the ones I made before from PVC pipe. I'm going to get some EMT conduit, a bender and my welder and build some tall enough so I can use my 15-inch at home. It is not feasible to drive very often to a darker site, and I have every right to use my telescopes in the driveway, no matter what people think.

Taras


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Gil V
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/09/12

Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Raginar]
      #5941389 - 06/26/13 12:48 PM

Get to know your neighbors. People are generally nice, and can be reasoned with.

That being said, sell and get out as quickly as possible..

Edited by Gil V (06/26/13 12:51 PM)


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FirstSight
Duke of Deneb
*****

Reged: 12/26/05

Loc: Raleigh, NC
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5941400 - 06/26/13 12:57 PM

Rick Woods wrote:
Quote:

I've never understood why anyone would willingly put themselves under a HOA's control.




Meanwhile, Rex from OK states a common wish among astro-folk:
Quote:

It's hard to get away from such neighbors. It seems every neighborhood has one or two who want to light up the rest of the neighborhood. So that's why I'm actively looking for 10 acres in the country. Means a longer commute to work and to see family and friends, but it also means peace and quiet and an environment more conducive for astronomy.




...but member "celtictexan" illustrates the HUGE potential flaw with this plan:
Quote:

I bought a place in the country, someone else moved in 5 acres down from me. First he puts this giant 5 globe front light in then puts a big mercury vapor light on his shop. Looks like the sun stayed up around him. I use to could set up anywhere now I have to hide behind my shop or be blinded from the side. People that are scared of the dark should stay in the city.




The only real solutions to this problem are to either:
1) move to a place that's forbiddingly-enough isolated from other habitation that it's unlikely to attract any neighbors, irrespective of whether they turn out to have potentially problematic lighting habits or not.
2) move to a place where ENFORCEABLE RESTRICTIONS are solidly in place against astro-unfriendly lighting, such as Chiefland Astronomy Village in Florida or Tom Clark's astronomy-friendly development in southern New Mexico.

REGARDLESS of whether the formal mechanism by which the restrictions protecting Chiefland or Tom Clark's new digs is a HOA, deed covenants, local municipal regulations etc. it amounts to the same thing: there's a set of legally enforceable restrictions in place with a group of people authorized to enforce them against you should you ITHO be in violation. THE REAL PROBLEM most of you in fact have against HOAs is that the types of restrictions most of them are most focused on are issues which seem like petty intrusiveness to you. Would you feel differently if you were a member of a HOA which was as aggressive against people with excessive or unshielded lighting as many are about paint color or out-building style?


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brianb11213
Postmaster
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Reged: 02/25/09

Loc: 55.215N 6.554W
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: galexand]
      #5941456 - 06/26/13 01:45 PM

Quote:

But some advice, if you want to actually win, and you know which neighbor...might help to just bring the guy some cookies or a nice cigar or some imported coffee...you know, sit down and have a chat like friends. Depends on how much time and patience you have.



+1. Building friendhips is not done through legal action.

And ask him/her (& family) to have a peek through your scope. At the very least they'll gain an appreciation of what their lights are doing. Almost all light pollution is thoughtlessness rather than deliberately hostile action.


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csrlice12
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: brianb11213]
      #5941473 - 06/26/13 01:53 PM

.

Edited by tecmage (06/27/13 07:27 PM)


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Startraffic
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 02/12/06

Loc: Lat. 39.143345, Long. -77.1748...
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5941480 - 06/26/13 02:00 PM

AstroTatDad,
My turn! I live in a small town (Pop. 400) in the middle a heavily populated county (Pop +750,000) outside DC. There is no HOA, I made sure of that before we bought the house. BTDT, NEVER again! It was in fact one of the conditions. I'm the kind of neighbor that comes around with my own tractor & pushes the snow from the road & your driveway for a "Thanks". We had a snow storm that left 8"-10" on the road (keep in mind that 2" will cause every single grocery store to have a run on toilet paper, eggs & milk. Rush hour becomes complete mayhem, and if the snow isn't gone the next day people start thinking how to barbeque their kids.). There is a guy that lives at the end of the road, that didn't like my pushing snow in front of his house, so he came out & chewed me out saying he'd rather shovel it himself than have me push it for him. "Ok, no problem. I'll push down to so&so's driveway from now on." "Good". The next snow was 30" then, 4 days later we got another 40". This was called "Snowmageddon" The DC area was stopped for days, literally. This guy had a great time shoveling 70" of snow from his 150ft of driveway and 200ft of road in order to get out. The same guy figured out that my Obs was too close to the front of my yard & he had the town come out to make me move it. I did, he complained again, they came out a total of 4 times before all was said & done. I kept "That hideous, leperous, looking toadstool". Then he complained to the County about it, the county code enforcement officer came out, checked it out & told him that it was a "temporary structure" & inside the setbacks & legal. So he complained about my 35yo siding. It was in 35yo siding condition but the Code off agreed that it needed replacement, & I have to replace my siding. My solution, Craigs list leftover siding. Any color, any style. The house is looking like a patchwork quilt. I've got purple, red, 2 different blues, you name it, it's going on the house. He walked by the house & stopped in his tracks. Then he started screaming that I couldn't do that. I thought he going to have a stroke. I told the Inspector when she showed up that I was simply complying with building code requirements. The BC requirements just don't happen say that everything had to match. The inspector just laughed & agreed that I had a right to side my house however I wanted. Wait till the "Gentlemen" sees my "new" Obs. My kids are going to paint it like R2D2. Passive devious compliance.
In your case, maybe a set of Xenon Strobe lights that come on right after you go to bed & just happen to be pointed at HIS bedroom. You can ever shield them so they don't have a lot of backscatter. I think there is even a random pulse generator that would flash it at, well random times. Xenon strobes are like looking at the Sun at noon, in the Sahara, at the summer solstice. I had a 30 million candlepower spotlight that I swear felt like it had a recoil. Fried eyeballs, roasted retinas, & inflamed iris's. He'll get the message, or if he continues to harass you that is a legal matter and could be dealt with by legal means.

Clear Dark Skies
Startraffic
39.138274 -77.168898


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Mike B
Starstruck
*****

Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5941495 - 06/26/13 02:16 PM

Overall, it seems like the issue of regulating things concerns aspects that affect folks beyond one's own property- light, sound, smells, etc. I have the right to run my personal stereo, but at what point does its volume begin to intrude onto other folks' peace & quiet... and to what degree is this measured or determined. That's a tough one to evaluate... probably even tougher to legislate... even harder to enforce! Typically this is thrown onto local law enforcement, who i'm quite sure have better things to do with their time & our tax dollars.

Then there's the issue of controlling intangibles, like artistic tastes, aesthetics, and "group-think" sensibilities. Do i have the right to paint my house chartreuse, or let my front lawn grow six-feet-deep? Yeah, it might offend your sense of taste- possibly even affect your property value. Where do my rights end & yours begin there? That's a tough one.

Now there's the issue of controlling behaviors. Hangin' around in the dark all hours of the nite, peeking thru optical instruments... are you the neighborhood astrohead, or a peeping-tom? All those folks comin' to your house once a week (or more?) & hoggin' up all the neighborhood curbside parking- are y'all doin' Amway, a Bible study, watching illegal movies, or planning your next Jihad?

Sure seems like our culture is deeply divided over a LOT of this kinda stuff. The notion of leading a quiet & unobtrusive life seems to have been flung out the window... not even sure if anyone bothered to see if it was even OPEN before they flung. What it's been replaced with... i can hardly begin to describe:
1) vehicles that rattle your home's windows three blocks before they pass by,
2) private parties in residential neighborhoods that run PA-system loud music 'til early in the morning,
3) dogs left outdoors 24/7/365 in residential neighborhoods, barking all hours of the nite,
4) illegal & EXTRA-boisterous fireworks dispensed by the truckload, for imbeciles having too many extra fingers to play with all nite long... and for MONTHS leading up to & trailing each explosive holiday,
5) you get the idea... most of us have seen far more of this kinda thing than should be experienced... unless, perhaps, for a Gitmo Bay detainee!

HOA's are, no doubt, a knee-jerk reaction against much of the above, yet they bring their own offensive practices to the equation. Not really sure what the solution might be...


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AstroTatDad
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 04/22/13

Loc: Los Angeles - San Diego
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Mike B]
      #5941616 - 06/26/13 03:25 PM

Update: I'm cool on my light blockers. I guess they contacted who ever complained about it and asked if I left it up all the time. They said it's most nights from 7:00pm til the AM hours.

Yeah HOA don't come out, they go by what people say around here.

So I'm just glade I CAN use my blockers, that's the thing that bugged me is there only up when I'm out observing so I'm glade they are cool with me.

As for all the lighting around here they are going to make sure they have all the right lighting, but they think it has been done already.

As for the pool area yeah I guess it has to be on. no biggie.. I CAN use my blockers. So now whoever complained if they have a power trip will be looking for something else now so we will see.


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csrlice12
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: AstroTatDad]
      #5941627 - 06/26/13 03:33 PM

...oh, they'll find something or someone else to bother...its their nature......

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Mike B
Starstruck
*****

Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5941661 - 06/26/13 03:58 PM

Hey, that's great! Aren't HOA's just the coolest thing!

I know it's been tried before... but perhaps NOW would, in fact, be a great time to invite that complaining neighbor our for a peek thru your scope? Might just score a double-winner?


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REC
Post Laureate
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Reged: 10/20/10

Loc: NC
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: AstroTatDad]
      #5941724 - 06/26/13 04:45 PM

Hmmm....just picked up this post. So if I read this right, your neighbor with the Getto light is causing most of the problem along with the pool lights?

So, I am on the board of my HOA. The HOA's in NC are pretty standard and very common for Condo's and Housing developments. The Dec's and Covenant's must be filed with the county before the units are built by the developer by law. They than write up "the rules" and vary from very basic to very strict...like, no parking on the street, no buildings in the yard, keeping up the street views and common areas ect. All home owners must get a copy of these rules when they purchase the property and agree to follow them.

Now, maybe this will help. The HOA can write up rules that the city does not have on the books, like say parking on the street. It's not illegal here, but the HOA says no, so they can control that. BUT, if the HOA is violating city rules like keeping lights off at 11pm, that may trump them?

Perhaps you can have a star party at the pool area and then the HOA can turn them off so they can see what a differance it makes for star gazing. They can send out a newsletter anouncing it....but don't pick a night with a bright moon out, as you want them to see what they can see with a darker sky. Focus on Saturn and some Milky Way stuff with the telescope and some binos.

Hope you get it worked out as you say you have a red/orange area which is great!

I just came back from vacation in your area and we really love it there.

Good luck!

Bob


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audioaficionado
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/24/12

Loc: Medford, Orygun, USA
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5941743 - 06/26/13 04:54 PM

Quote:

Threats, empty or otherwise, are not the method by which civilized people conduct relations with their neighbors. The very first step should be in the manner of a friendly request; if the situation remains intractable, there is always recourse to the courts... and ultimately, a moving company.

Life is too short to engage in hostilities unless there is absolutely no other option; ask any (real) combat veteran.

Fred




+1
What is worth some one's or your own life and/or years of incarceration?
Trivial things can escalate to this level. We read about it in the news all too frequently.


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T1R2
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 06/11/13

Loc: NeverWhere, 35*N
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: audioaficionado]
      #5941793 - 06/26/13 05:25 PM

lol

Edited by tecmage (06/26/13 07:19 PM)


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AstroTatDad
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 04/22/13

Loc: Los Angeles - San Diego
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: T1R2]
      #5941852 - 06/26/13 06:08 PM

Thanks Bob, yes it's nice. I think we are about 15 miles give or take south east from Down Town San Diego. Most the main area of SD is white zone and tapper off to red then some areas orange out in the east. We have an amazing spot that is a dark zone out east right off hwy 8. it's about 35mins or so. It's up in the mountains. But it's great and very dark. I really like it there cause you can see the cut off in the southern skies.

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caheaton
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/26/09

Loc: SW Ohio
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: AstroTatDad]
      #5942237 - 06/26/13 10:23 PM

I've been following this thread and glad to hear it worked out ok for the op. What I've been wondering all along is, the neighbor complained about the light screens being up generally AT NIGHT, IN THE DARK, so why the h@@l should he have even cared?

Edited by caheaton (06/29/13 10:14 AM)


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GeneT
Ely Kid
*****

Reged: 11/07/08

Loc: South Texas
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5942267 - 06/26/13 10:48 PM

Quote:

I've never understood why anyone would willingly put themselves under a HOA's control. As I understand it, they can actually take your house, if push comes to shove...




This is true. If the lighting ordinances are being violated, the the appropriate city/county council should enforce the code. People in San Antonio have had good results in similar situations.


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okieav8rAdministrator
I'd rather be flying!
*****

Reged: 03/01/09

Loc: Oklahoma!
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: AstroTatDad]
      #5942283 - 06/26/13 10:56 PM

I can see where HOA's serve a purpose--making sure owners are keeping their property up, keeping the yard mowed, not parking cars in the yard or leaving them on blocks, not playing loud music into the wee hours or being a general nuisance to the rest of the neighborhood--that sort of thing. But people have a right to the peaceful and reasonable use of their property. When they infringe on that, they overstep their bounds. Just my opinion. Anyhow, I'm sure glad I don't have to deal with such associations.

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Mike B
Starstruck
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Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: caheaton]
      #5942309 - 06/26/13 11:15 PM

Quote:

...so why the h@@l should he have even cared?




Because SOMEbody over there is having a heck of a good time, enjoying the splendors of the universe, and the complainer is NOT! We shall not stand for such an inequity... how dare he!


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Feidb
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/09/09

Loc: Nevada
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Mike B]
      #5942366 - 06/27/13 12:02 AM

When we shopped for our house in Las Vegas, I told my realtor if she even brought up a house associated with an HOA, I'd find another realtor. The last thing I'd want to do is pay a quarter million dollars for something and have someone else tell me what I can do with it. Sorry, I've lived in base housing on military installations before. I'm just too independent for that.

As for property value and having trashy neighbors? I'll gladly take the gamble with that rather than have some (expletive deleted) telling me how to rake my gravel or paint my house or trim my palm trees (I live in Las Vegas). Speaking of which, I have had my neighbor issues but none of them compare to the HOA issues I hear about from many of my friends. Besides, home values? What a joke! My house is only worth a quarter of what I paid for it so that doesn't mean much. Yet, we love our place.

I feel for AstroTatDad and his issues. I just chose not to buy into something like that. My issue is that I live in the Las Vegas Valley and a block from a major high school and I can't even see the sky half the time, so I don't set up since I go for faint fuzzies. I drive out of town to observe.

I chose to avoid HOAs at all costs, and feel it was well worth it.


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AstroTatDad
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 04/22/13

Loc: Los Angeles - San Diego
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Feidb]
      #5942399 - 06/27/13 01:09 AM

Quote:

When we shopped for our house in Las Vegas, I told my realtor if she even brought up a house associated with an HOA, I'd find another realtor. The last thing I'd want to do is pay a quarter million dollars for something and have someone else tell me what I can do with it. Sorry, I've lived in base housing on military installations before. I'm just too independent for that.

As for property value and having trashy neighbors? I'll gladly take the gamble with that rather than have some (expletive deleted) telling me how to rake my gravel or paint my house or trim my palm trees (I live in Las Vegas). Speaking of which, I have had my neighbor issues but none of them compare to the HOA issues I hear about from many of my friends. Besides, home values? What a joke! My house is only worth a quarter of what I paid for it so that doesn't mean much. Yet, we love our place.

I feel for AstroTatDad and his issues. I just chose not to buy into something like that. My issue is that I live in the Las Vegas Valley and a block from a major high school and I can't even see the sky half the time, so I don't set up since I go for faint fuzzies. I drive out of town to observe.

I chose to avoid HOAs at all costs, and feel it was well worth it.




Cool. I rented a condo in Vegas for 6 months back in 2008, near Red Rock. It wasn't to bad there, I just couldn't handle the heat lol.

Are new home will have no HOA, we told the guy that is helping me get this place set for the market to make sure when looking for our new home, no HOA. I'm excited this will be my first real house so going to make sure everything will be perfect, we hope lol. Better be if we are going to be dropping 350-500k The guy is really cool, feel we are in good hands, he knows I'm going to build a observatory.

So this time we when go look at the places I'm going to talk to the neighbors, tell them I look at the skies and will be building a observatory. Think that would be good, to meet them. Also check it out at night. but the area we are looking is very nice and is in a green zone.. just a little pricey.


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droid
rocketman
*****

Reged: 08/29/04

Loc: Conneaut, Ohio
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: AstroTatDad]
      #5942621 - 06/27/13 08:01 AM

rec'd mod alert on this....cleaned up
and open for business.


Edited by tecmage (06/27/13 07:44 PM)


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Feidb
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/09/09

Loc: Nevada
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: droid]
      #5943997 - 06/27/13 11:23 PM

Outside of the HOA issue, I sacrificed the dark skies for everything else we wanted. I can live with that. I just have to have a working vehicle, gas money, and a warm body to go with me for security. I was never into observatories as it's too restrictive for me plus having to live in such an isolated spot to make it work. Being a Dob person also and no interest in astrophotography...

Besides, getting away for a bit for some peace and quiet isn't such a bad thing either!


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REC
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/20/10

Loc: NC
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: AstroTatDad]
      #5944784 - 06/28/13 01:19 PM

I was just out there and wondered how far away from the city you had to be to get some basic dark skies. I was staying in a hotel off of rt. 8 by some shopping mall...Mission Valley area.

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AstroTatDad
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 04/22/13

Loc: Los Angeles - San Diego
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: REC]
      #5945295 - 06/28/13 05:55 PM

Quote:

I was just out there and wondered how far away from the city you had to be to get some basic dark skies. I was staying in a hotel off of rt. 8 by some shopping mall...Mission Valley area.




oh wow, yeah you were not far at all, just needed to get on the 8 go east. We are going to go this evening.


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orion61

*****

Reged: 10/20/07

Loc: Birthplace James T Kirk
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: AstroTatDad]
      #5945337 - 06/28/13 06:21 PM

I just about bought a nice house in DesMoines, beautiful Landscaping, etc.
The realitor was nice enough to tell me that it was a HOA neighborhood.. I'll bet she's still wondering why it won't sell!
I ran away as fast as I could..
Every Woman wants to be an interior decorator at heart.
Its too bad it seems the worst ones at it seem to land on those boards.


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: orion61]
      #5945394 - 06/28/13 07:04 PM

Quote:

Every Woman wants to be an interior decorator at heart.





No; not every woman!


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JS999R
super member


Reged: 12/07/11

Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: galexand]
      #5945547 - 06/28/13 08:40 PM

HOAs are a love/hate relationship. If they did their job, they would go after those individuals who trash their yards and bring down the property values or desirability of a potential buyer. I'm convinced there are more slobs in our neighborhoods and if not for an HOA, I would likely be living next to one. Then the other side of the coin is their urge to harass you over trivial matters and turn it into a federal case.

As we have seen moving out to the country is not always a solution because there are a fair share of weirdos there as well. Just figure their motivation why they are out there away from people in the first place, many of them are anti this and that to the ridiculous and especially get stranger when they have to follow a rule or two. All it takes is one powerful mercury vapor light in a dark location to ruin the dark environment. Do you think they have a clue or even care? I recall visiting the Golden State dark sky party last year and was amazed how one not to distant sun type light in front of a barn impacted the dark seeing. The light appeared so bright it was very annoying and I'm sure anyone into this hobby living close to him could build up a case of "light rage" over time.

I live in a typical tract home neighborhood and the glowing street lamps never actually bothered me before I became obsessed with astronomy. Actually they did because I like placing low voltage lights along pathways to accent and guide, but with a powerful laser beam street light overexposing the front yard, the accent lights are useless. I'm not talking about the cheesy Home Depot solar lights, the ones that come packed 10 to 20 of them to the carton and the homeowner insists on placing every last one like landing lights along borders just because he bought them. What common sense landscaping school did these people go to? Over time the lights burn out (useless anyway) or get knocked over or bent over and the typical homeowner just leaves them that way. Aggravates the hell out of me and a good reason to have an HOA around to go after them.

Yeah, I'm anal about keeping things up in the neighborhood, I would rather live next to or across the street from someone like myself rather than Joe Sixpack.


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sslcm56
super member


Reged: 07/20/12

Loc: Montgomery, Al.
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5945551 - 06/28/13 08:44 PM

I was closing on my house in the older part of town when I was told about the HOA. I got up and left.

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BigC
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 09/29/10

Loc: SE Indiana
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: JS999R]
      #5945766 - 06/28/13 10:54 PM

And I'll take Joe Sixpack over somebody that obsesses over a neighbor's defective solar light.

All I want from neighbors is that they don't annoy me with loud and bright whatever ,and they mostly mind their own business.In return,I'll mind mine!.

If you insist on controlling your neighbors' lives,don't be shocked when they return the favor.
And they may well consider being out in the dark "peeking with telescopes" something they don't want in THEIR community!


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caheaton
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/26/09

Loc: SW Ohio
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: BigC]
      #5945781 - 06/28/13 11:04 PM

Quote:

And I'll take Joe Sixpack over somebody that obsesses over a neighbor's defective solar light.

All I want from neighbors is that they don't annoy me with loud and bright whatever ,and they mostly mind their own business.In return,I'll mind mine!.

If you insist on controlling your neighbors' lives,don't be shocked when they return the favor.
And they may well consider being out in the dark "peeking with telescopes" something they don't want in THEIR community!






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Jmax
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 09/28/10

Loc: Alabama
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: JS999R]
      #5945805 - 06/28/13 11:21 PM

I like my solar lights. I never knew they could be so offensive.

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Mike B
Starstruck
*****

Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Jmax]
      #5946575 - 06/29/13 01:18 PM

Quote:

I like my solar lights. I never knew they could be so offensive.



Only when handled by amateurs...


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amicus sidera
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/14/11

Loc: East of the Sun, West of the M...
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: JS999R]
      #5947021 - 06/29/13 06:34 PM

Quote:


As we have seen moving out to the country is not always a solution because there are a fair share of weirdos there as well. Just figure their motivation why they are out there away from people in the first place, many of them are anti this and that to the ridiculous and especially get stranger when they have to follow a rule or two.




Sounds like my kind of folks; the type who value their liberty and resent unwarranted intrusion.

Being a suburbanite, I don't know the exact phrase that rural dwellers might use to describe those who must have not only their own lawns manicured, and their own houses without flaw, but in addition seek to inflict the same standards upon their hapless neighbors; however, I doubt that "weirdo" would be a sufficiently strong descriptor.

Fred


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sslcm56
super member


Reged: 07/20/12

Loc: Montgomery, Al.
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5947204 - 06/29/13 09:28 PM

Quote:

Quote:


As we have seen moving out to the country is not always a solution because there are a fair share of weirdos there as well. Just figure their motivation why they are out there away from people in the first place, many of them are anti this and that to the ridiculous and especially get stranger when they have to follow a rule or two.





Most of us would call these people farmers. You know the ones that feed those of us that really think that their food comes from the store!

To be fair also. I am a rural FedEx driver and I do have two ummmmm....customers out there that I would consider OUT THERE!


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dawziecat
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/20/10

Loc: Rural Nova Scotia
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5951307 - 07/02/13 12:56 PM

Quote:

Then do a neighborly thing like feed the birds.




Oh no you don't!

Feeding birds? Definitely against HOA rules!! What ARE you thinking??

Someone must love the HOA way of living. That's fine but I'd never do it again!

Replace ratty, old windows? Need HOA approval!

Replace your front door? Need HOA approval!

Build an observatory??? You are out of your ever-lovin' mind to even consider such a thing in an HOA enclave!

Edited by dawziecat (07/02/13 01:13 PM)


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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: dawziecat]
      #5951381 - 07/02/13 01:45 PM

According to HOA rules, here's nothing more dangerous then a Hermit with a telescope......HOA's fear us, those out in the middle of nowhere don't see us......but we're there, and our numbers are legion (we just don't have anything to do with each other outside of star parties).

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REC
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/20/10

Loc: NC
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5951486 - 07/02/13 03:06 PM

Good one!

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davidpitre
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 05/10/05

Loc: Central Texas
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: JS999R]
      #5951965 - 07/02/13 07:39 PM

Quote:



As we have seen moving out to the country is not always a solution because there are a fair share of weirdos there as well. Just figure their motivation why they are out there away from people in the first place, many of them are anti this and that to the ridiculous and especially get stranger when they have to follow a rule or two.
...Yeah, I'm anal about keeping things up in the neighborhood, I would rather live next to or across the street from someone like myself rather than Joe Sixpack.



To each his own. I think you would much prefer where you are to the rural area where I live. (I am a farmer.)


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: JS999R]
      #5951986 - 07/02/13 07:53 PM

Quote:

Just figure their motivation why they are out there away from people in the first place




Well, I'm out in the country. Let's see why am I out here Peaceful quietness, beautiful scenery, lots of wildlife, able to take long walks in the country, right out my door. Oh, and last but definitely not least; beautiful dark skies with no street lights, etc. to enjoy the views of the night skies.

I must be crazy to live out here!



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dakota
sage
*****

Reged: 12/11/11

Loc: SD (God's Country)
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5952058 - 07/02/13 08:44 PM

Carol,

You have a piece of heaven.

I live in a small South Dakota town and wouldn't go back to "big city life" for all the tea in China so to speak.


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Mike B
Starstruck
*****

Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5952109 - 07/02/13 09:15 PM

Quote:

I must be crazy to live out here!






No, but i'm sure it helps.

Sorry, couldn't resist...


Quote:

...and wouldn't go back to "big city life" for all the tea in China so to speak.



That's okay, i'm sure "the big city" is not where they keep it, anyway.

Actually, i think i envy you both. When we were first married, we lived in Santa Barbara, CA- a gorgeous, idyllic city "on the beach", having practically "perfect" year 'round weather. Yet it was soooo crowded, expensive, and intense- not at all calm or peaceful.

We've since relocated to a modest sized town of 35k... i can see mag 5 stars from my backyard. 'Tain't too bad here... but whenever we travel the 45 minutes to a nearby "big city", i can feel my hackles go up. I hate the thot of ever moving closer to a major population center! Wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit to head a bit the other direction...


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: dakota]
      #5952188 - 07/02/13 10:24 PM

Hans, indeed I do have a piece of heaven! I only have one neighbor living here year around, so very secluded and peaceful. My observatory gets a lot of use!

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REC
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/20/10

Loc: NC
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5952810 - 07/03/13 10:02 AM

Carol, what's your address, I want to come and visit you

Bob


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Cotts
Just Wondering
*****

Reged: 10/10/05

Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5952893 - 07/03/13 10:57 AM

Quote:

Quote:


As we have seen moving out to the country is not always a solution because there are a fair share of weirdos there as well. Just figure their motivation why they are out there away from people in the first place, many of them are anti this and that to the ridiculous and especially get stranger when they have to follow a rule or two.




Sounds like my kind of folks; the type who value their liberty and resent unwarranted intrusion.

Being a suburbanite, I don't know the exact phrase that rural dwellers might use to describe those who must have not only their own lawns manicured, and their own houses without flaw, but in addition seek to inflict the same standards upon their hapless neighbors; however, I doubt that "weirdo" would be a sufficiently strong descriptor.

Fred




Regarding moving to a rural site. Two stories, one successful, one horrible.

My story. In 1991 I bought a country home, mag6.2 skies about 90 minutes from Toronto to build an observatory. There was one neighbour who had three of the dreaded 400 watt mercury vapour lights. They put up their own light dome halfway up the western sky. I put up with it for a month and invited the farmer and his family over for a bar b q and some observing. They enjoyed the views and my tale of moving from the city for dark skies. The farmer looked to the west and said, "Well, it's not so dark here, look at that glow." I said, "that's the lights of your farm. Pretty bright, eh?" From that night onward those lights never came on again.

Cautionary tale: A former teaching colleague of mine bought a rural property as a weekend and summer retreat for birdwatching and nature photography. He had the place for at least ten years with no problem until one day when he caught a local man hunting on his property. My colleague had the man charged by the OPP and there was a conviction and a fine imposed. One week later while my friend was in Toronto at his teaching job, thieves backed a truck up to his house and emptied it to the four walls. They took everything down to the toilet paper in the bathroom, pictures on the wall, food in the cupboards etc. When he went up the next weekend he saw the truck wheel marks in the driveway and his house was empty except for a piece of paper which had the message, "Go Back To Toronto" written on it. No one was ever charged for the theft. He sold the place soon after.

So there's two ways to go if you move into someone's 'territory'.

Dave


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Adam Taylor
insignificant bystander
*****

Reged: 11/11/10

Loc: Arizona
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Cotts]
      #5953000 - 07/03/13 12:08 PM

Chilling story!

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Tony Flanders
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/18/06

Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Cotts]
      #5953062 - 07/03/13 12:46 PM

Quote:

A former teaching colleague of mine bought a rural property as a weekend and summer retreat for birdwatching and nature photography. He had the place for at least ten years with no problem until one day when he caught a local man hunting on his property. My colleague had the man charged by the OPP and there was a conviction and a fine imposed.




Where I own my country home, that would be a violation of an unwritten convention. It's sort of assumed that people can go onto their neighbors' land for legitimate purposes, which certainly includes hunting.

Obviously, it's polite to ask permission first. But when I catch somebody hunting on my land or my neighbor's land, I speak to them nicely, find out about their credentials, and if necessary, ask them politely to leave. Suing somebody would truly be a last resort.

Not everybody operates according to this code. Some would escort you off their land at the point of a gun, for instance. But if your friend violated the code out of simple unawareness, that is indeed a characteristic city-transplant sin.

Mostly, the more deer get killed on my property, the better ...


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hm insulators
Post Laureate


Reged: 01/22/07

Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Smittty692k4]
      #5953113 - 07/03/13 01:10 PM

Quote:

While I'm not in HOA's control, my neighbor's lights blind me sometimes as well. The worst is when they have to take their little poodle/chihuahua/terrier thing outside at like 11pm to make "tink-tink" or potty or whatever they ungodly call it after my dark adaption has hit high gear.







"'Tink-tink'"?! That's one I've never heard before!


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orion61

*****

Reged: 10/20/07

Loc: Birthplace James T Kirk
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: JS999R]
      #5953117 - 07/03/13 01:12 PM

Quote:

As we have seen moving out to the country is not always a solution because there are a fair share of weirdos there as well. Just figure their motivation why they are out there away from people in the first place, many of them are anti this and that to the ridiculous and especially get stranger when they have to follow a rule or two.




Wow that is the single most offensive thing I have ever heard! I can tell you are a city boy, and have never even met someone living in the country who supplies the Food you eat.
I have lived in both places and can attest the Country folks
are a lot more "normal" per 100 than most my City Neighbors I have lived by in the city, They also work longer and harder hours than simply 9to5, and do not get nearly the thanks or credit from the people they feed and cloth during their 70 plus hour work weeks...


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Wmacky
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 11/24/07

Loc: Florida
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: orion61]
      #5953162 - 07/03/13 01:43 PM

I have the pleasure of living in the country, with the long work commute to go with it, but there is a problem. I only own 1 acre of land. What should be some what dark sky's with just 1 large light dome, is ruined by 2 neighbors that surround me with their powerful electric fire suns. The worst one across the street offered to keep the closest light off. However, when the husband got kicked out. the wife turned the fire sun back on.

You see living in the country means nothing unless you own a very large track of property that can be left "wooded" around the perimeter as a giant light block. Even better is a trac within a state park area to keep out walmarts, and sports complexes.

I spend over 5 grand to build an observatory with high walls just to block the lights from my rude neighbors, but you know what? It still just burns me up having to shield my eyes from the blinding lights. I how noe decided to spend thousands more to line my lot front, and back with rows of those tall cone shaped evergreen type trees. The ones you see on estates that look like soilders lined up!

Edited by Wmacky (07/03/13 01:52 PM)


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Mike B
Starstruck
*****

Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: hm insulators]
      #5953177 - 07/03/13 01:53 PM

Quote:

"'Tink-tink'"?! That's one I've never heard before!



Must be the sound gerbil kidney-stones make when hitting sheet-metal?

Quote:

I have lived in both places and can attest the Country folks are a lot more "normal" per 100 than most my City Neighbors



That's what i would've thot... yet around these parts the rural, hilly areas are a significant crime & law-enforcement issue re: uhhh... let's just say "maryjane"-farms & "twinkie"-labs. And as with the city population, it's likely a relative minority that are the problem... but a very visible & frightening problem! In fact, what d'ya wanna bet its the percentage cookin' "twinkies" in the hills that are providing it to the percentage in the city who use it?

Even so, a while back our own neighborhood had a "twinkie"-house; it was unbelievable- a clean, modern subdivision, cul-de-sacs, young children playing everywhere... and then these brain-donors, too! And to tie-in the small dog theme, they had a "poodle/chihuahua/terrier thing" named "Crystal".


Perhaps it's here that an aggressive HOA would be majorly useful?


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bunyon
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/23/10

Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Mike B]
      #5953243 - 07/03/13 02:26 PM

<i>Perhaps it's here that an aggressive HOA would be majorly useful?</i>

Society has a HOA-type mechanism for this: the police. Call them.


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Achernar
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Wmacky]
      #5953376 - 07/03/13 03:59 PM Attachment (14 downloads)

I build light blockers, such as the three poles I just welded today for hanging a large tarp off of to block flood lights. I would do the same in your situation, and try plating trees or tall bushes that will turn into a barrier between your yard and the bright lights around it. Here is a photo of one solution that can work, if it's not windy. As for the man whose house was cleaned out, in his shoes I would not have moved, I would have reported anyone on my land with a gun thereafter as a threat to the police, and they would find out that I like many others WILL prosecute if they are lucky. Tresspassing on people's land is now a potential felony in most, if not all states. In Alabama, people go to jail for five years in the state prison for tresspassing while armed with a gun.

Taras


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auriga
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/02/06

Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: AstroTatDad]
      #5953412 - 07/03/13 04:28 PM

What is an HOA? You have only used the initials. Home owners's association? We didn't have them in Manhattan! Are they like condo owners' associations? Tell more.

I live in park-like suburb now that has rules about what you can and cannot build, and for years i lived in an early planned community with similar rules, and they never bothered me. We just had rules from the town, not from any HOA, whatever that is. Please explain rather than posting in acronyms. Thanks.

What is annoying to me is neighbors with klieg lights. I am thinking of setting up a series of 8 foot insulation pads as temporary light blocks. I got this idea from CN.

Bill


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Jmax
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 09/28/10

Loc: Alabama
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Achernar]
      #5953427 - 07/03/13 04:37 PM

Your part of Alabama is definitely not like my part. Sometimes people accidentally get on others' land while hunting, and most people around here would understand. Now if a person were asked nicely not to do it again, I'm sure they would respect that. If they didn't, I could see a possible call to the authorities. But I highly doubt a jury around here would send anyone to prison for hunting, even on someone else's property.

John


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Mike B
Starstruck
*****

Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: auriga]
      #5953429 - 07/03/13 04:38 PM

HOA = Home Owners' Association... this might be helpful to explain?

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AstroTatDad
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 04/22/13

Loc: Los Angeles - San Diego
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Mike B]
      #5954162 - 07/04/13 01:17 AM

Well it's been good so far guys, only thing that happened to night was: I setup my scope brought everything out, just set my light blockers up took a look through my EP then stepped back.. boom marine layer. Lol figures, I was going to drive out to our dark spot but got lazy now I wish I did.

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Mike B
Starstruck
*****

Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: AstroTatDad]
      #5954227 - 07/04/13 01:59 AM

Quote:

...boom marine layer




We get a lot of that here, too. May need to extend my light-blockers up a thousand feet or so... see if that helps.


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AstroTatDad
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 04/22/13

Loc: Los Angeles - San Diego
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Mike B]
      #5954267 - 07/04/13 02:35 AM

Quote:

Quote:

...boom marine layer




We get a lot of that here, too. May need to extend my light-blockers up a thousand feet or so... see if that helps.





Hehe.

yeah we have been getting a lot of it this summer.
I will take pics of my blockers tomorrow, works great. It's kinda cool we have a small enclosed area out front with a 4 foot wall. Are front area is about 4 feet off the ground so makes it kinda private. It's kinda like a mini observatory,


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Cotts
Just Wondering
*****

Reged: 10/10/05

Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: orion61]
      #5954554 - 07/04/13 10:19 AM

Quote:

Quote:

As we have seen moving out to the country is not always a solution because there are a fair share of weirdos there as well. Just figure their motivation why they are out there away from people in the first place, many of them are anti this and that to the ridiculous and especially get stranger when they have to follow a rule or two.




Wow that is the single most offensive thing I have ever heard! I can tell you are a city boy, and have never even met someone living in the country who supplies the Food you eat.
I have lived in both places and can attest the Country folks
are a lot more "normal" per 100 than most my City Neighbors I have lived by in the city, They also work longer and harder hours than simply 9to5, and do not get nearly the thanks or credit from the people they feed and cloth during their 70 plus hour work weeks...




Some City people think Rural folks are unsophisticated, backward, ignorant rednecks. Some Rural folks think City people are rude, self-centered, arrogant know-it-alls.

Of course, the above is complete hogwash. These sorts of character flaws are found everywhere.

Dave


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vsteblina
sage


Reged: 11/05/07

Loc: Wenatchee, Washington
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Cotts]
      #5954671 - 07/04/13 12:10 PM

For those of you looking for rural property without the fear of bright rural lights......find communities off-the-grid. There are lots of them throughout the United States....1.5 million people's worth.

Solar and wind power does not generate enough power to leave outside lights on at night. So the areas are dark at night.

The other advantage these communities tend to get rid of the rif-raf they form HOA's. Also you might a lot more interesting people.


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: REC]
      #5954740 - 07/04/13 01:05 PM

Quote:

Carol, what's your address, I want to come and visit you

Bob




Well, I do have 20 acres, so there's room!


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mark379
sage
*****

Reged: 02/07/09

Loc: New Jersey
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: okieav8r]
      #5954963 - 07/04/13 03:58 PM

Quote:

It's hard to get away from such neighbors. It seems every neighborhood has one or two who want to light up the rest of the neighborhood. So that's why I'm actively looking for 10 acres in the country. Means a longer commute to work and to see family and friends, but it also means peace and quiet and an environment more conducive for astronomy.




Amen !

I'm plsnning the same thing in the 5 year plan...


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REC
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/20/10

Loc: NC
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5955045 - 07/04/13 05:32 PM

Awesome Carol, have a Happy 4th!

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BigC
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 09/29/10

Loc: SE Indiana
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Cotts]
      #5955134 - 07/04/13 06:52 PM

I think we remember the lousy meal at a restaraunt with more clarity than the many good ones;so too with people.

But in general,I find rural people less likely to want or need "official" approval of once common things like clotheslines,doghouses,and working on one's own car in one's driveway.

The recent cartoon in the daily paper of a man calling the police to report his neighbor blowing grass clipping into the gutter is indicative of the busybody.

Nearly everyone for miles around here has at least one insecurity light;it is the people who moved out from the city that have two and three.What is the accepted norm in one place is un-needed in another.

Diversity.


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Herr General
member


Reged: 06/20/13

Loc: Ohio
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: BigC]
      #5955360 - 07/04/13 10:51 PM

As someone who has never owned a house and probably won't for a while yet: I've already heard so many horror stories that I would never consider living anywhere with a HOA.

I'd definitely love to live in the country, somewhere I can get dark skies and few people to bother me- but that also means slower internet and long trips to meet friends. Gotta make tradeoffs for a pipe dream, I suppose.


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Joe F Gafford
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/15/06

Loc: Denver, Colorado, US
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Herr General]
      #5955382 - 07/04/13 11:10 PM

I own my own house and HOAs were fairly new when I bought it. The problem back then were the covenants that was attached to your property. My concern back then was that some covenants abolished large antennas such as CB and Ham radio antennas. My covenants did not contain those things.

There is an HOA in the neighborhood that abuts mine that does not allow anything that protrudes over your fence, including the tall annual garden sunflowers! If you want a small observatory or even a pad, a lot of those HOAs will not allow this. What I gather over the years that the officers of such places as HOAs would not be elected Dog Catcher otherwise.

Joe


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bunyon
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/23/10

Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Herr General]
      #5955684 - 07/05/13 08:14 AM

I say this as someone who would hate living in an HOA but they have a rationale. A lot of neighbors can be a nuisance. If you're the kind of person that wants to live in a relatively uniform tract and doesn't want the risk (or wants to lower the risk) of eyesores such as cars rusting out in the lawn, the infamous lawn toilet or loud or junky homes, then an HOA makes sense. It's just that by choosing that you give up some control of your property.

You really have to decide: is the ability to do with your land what you want worth the risk that your neighbor will as well? Is the ability to have a say in how your neighbor lives worth allowing others say in how you live?

I've lived next to some awful neighbors - loud, dirty, profane, etc. It isn't fun. At those times it's tempting to latch onto an HOA. And many HOAs are fairly reasonable. But if you are in one that isn't, that is also terrible.

Risk/reward, as always.

Oh, the other thing about covenants is that it requires someone to, essentially, sue. So the rules may be as restrictive as an HOA but there is no mechanism of enforcement other than going to civil authorities which is expensive. Our covenants actually state that the garage door can't be open except as cars are going in and out. No one observes this rule, of course. One neighbor tried to push it, for some reason, and was told (not by me, though I heard it) that she could sue and he would represent himself up until the point that a court date was set and fees due and then he'd close the door. It would cost her a lot in fees and time and him not much. I don't know how much was bluff but she hasn't bothered anyone about it since. Her door is open as much as anyone.

Basically, if you have nice neighbors (and are nice yourself) things work with or without an HOA. If you don't, it won't.

Quote:

As someone who has never owned a house and probably won't for a while yet: I've already heard so many horror stories that I would never consider living anywhere with a HOA.

I'd definitely love to live in the country, somewhere I can get dark skies and few people to bother me- but that also means slower internet and long trips to meet friends. Gotta make tradeoffs for a pipe dream, I suppose.




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amicus sidera
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Reged: 10/14/11

Loc: East of the Sun, West of the M...
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Cotts]
      #5955738 - 07/05/13 09:16 AM

Quote:

Cautionary tale: A former teaching colleague of mine bought a rural property as a weekend and summer retreat for birdwatching and nature photography. He had the place for at least ten years with no problem until one day when he caught a local man hunting on his property. My colleague had the man charged by the OPP and there was a conviction and a fine imposed. One week later while my friend was in Toronto at his teaching job, thieves backed a truck up to his house and emptied it to the four walls. They took everything down to the toilet paper in the bathroom, pictures on the wall, food in the cupboards etc. When he went up the next weekend he saw the truck wheel marks in the driveway and his house was empty except for a piece of paper which had the message, "Go Back To Toronto" written on it. No one was ever charged for the theft. He sold the place soon after.




That's pretty rough, but also odd in its own way, considering he'd had the place so long. Had he not formed friendships or alliances with any of the nearby people in that entire time, who might have then been prone to keep an eye on his place during the week? While I realize that he was certainly under no obligation to do so, it is an unfortunate fact that it pays dividends to make nice with the locals, especially in rural areas; even more so when one is basically a weekend resident and thus more-or-less an outsider, for all intents and purposes.

While he was well within his rights to press the issue with the hunter, sometimes the exercise of certain rights is best tempered with practical considerations if one wishes to avoid unintended consequences. While it goes without saying that burgling a man's property for the sake of revenge is absolutely inexcusable, some form of tit-for-tat repercussion was almost a certainty, given the circumstances (after all, the man involved received a criminal conviction, along with almost certain loss of hunting privileges for some time).

Considering that the victim in this instance was a teacher, wouldn't one would be inclined to assume that he would have been of sufficient intelligence to anticipate such retaliation? I guess it all depends...considering that the majority of educators which I've run into over the years seem to be of a decidely progressive persuasion who generally despise hunting and guns, and tend to assume that country folk are somewhat backwards and stupid, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the possibility of blowback never crossed his mind.

The moral of this story might well be: forgive, insofar as is possible, the trespasses of others; it can save one considerable grief.

Fred


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Herr General]
      #5955782 - 07/05/13 09:57 AM

Quote:

but that also means slower internet




That depends on where you are. I'm on DSL, and fiber optics will be available in the next couple of months.


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5955792 - 07/05/13 10:07 AM

Quote:

Considering that the victim in this instance was a teacher, wouldn't one would be inclined to assume that he would have been of sufficient intelligence to anticipate such retaliation? I guess it all depends...considering that the majority of educators which I've run into over the years seem to be of a decidely progressive persuasion who generally despise hunting and guns, and tend to assume that country folk are somewhat backwards and stupid, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the possibility of blowback never crossed his mind.




I don't think his vocation has anything to do with him having this person charged. If we have to worry about retaliation for everytime we do something we feel is the right thing to do, it will certainly be sad. I don't know what locale you are in; but the majority of educators I've known, and I'm sure others have; do not have this "country folk" mentality; and we certainly do not know what this teacher's opinion is.

Would I have had the tresspasser charged? No, I would have had a pleasant discussion with him, asking him not to hunt on the property in the future. If he continued, then I might take the path this person did.


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BigC
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 09/29/10

Loc: SE Indiana
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Herr General]
      #5955836 - 07/05/13 10:32 AM

"I'd definitely love to live in the country, somewhere I can get dark skies and few people to bother me- but that also means slower internet and long trips to meet friends. Gotta make tradeoffs for a pipe dream, I suppose."

I,,and my neighbors,on a gravel backroad got DSL in 2004 ;while people living in two nearby towns served by state highways had dial-up only,and they were served by a much larger phone company!One of my friends still cannot get DSL despite his location near to town .Different provider area.Fiber optic was buried HERE last summer.Up to 100Mps is available.Monthly fees based on bandwidth package.

Living rural does add significant drive time to every errand and get-together.For those with serious health issues it can mean the ambulance will arrive 20 or 30 minutes after a 9-1-1 call ,so it is something to consider.

Trade-offs are part of every choice.

Beware of buying an acre of some big flat field only to find six other people also bought adjoining acre and every one of them install big bright lights like they were used to in the city.

Orientation of the roads and land are important. If you can find a spot where it is reasonably certain no one will build anything in the direction you expect to observe that will be a big plus.I'd think a bit of land on the southern end of a ridge would be good.If the potential light sources are only homes to the north it should allow a lot of good viewing.


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FirstSight
Duke of Deneb
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Reged: 12/26/05

Loc: Raleigh, NC
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5955868 - 07/05/13 10:47 AM

I live in a neighborhood with an HOA, and fortunately the people serving on the main board have so far been reasonable, pleasant folks vastly more focused on common-area maintenance budgetary issues and intermittent problems with petty crime (rash of break-ins into people's cars in driveways, teenage vandalism at pool, etc) than with patrolling the neighborhood for petty violations of rules about homes and yards. The party who's most likely to spot and raise homeowner rules violations issues before them isn't homeowners, but the management company on contract to actually do routine maintenance e.g of pool, flowerbeds, etc. THE LEGAL DILEMMA the board faces with such violations is whether knowingly failing to address a particular violation, seemingly petty and harmless unto itself, has potential to create an unintentionally much broader waiver that could insulate a far more egregious violation of the same general class from being dealt with. The dynamic even a HOA board comprised of otherwise reasonable-to-deal-with board members are therefore placed in is their personal inclination to be accommodating, versus pressure from the management company and sometimes one or two lay petty busybodies warning that failing to deal with the alleged violation is opening the path to Hell, complete with junked cars and dilapidated torn sofas on the front lawn.

I could easily build an observatory compliant with the rules, which would easily gain any needed approvals, provided I built it of similar style to the main house (a roll-off observatory could easily be designed to comply)...the biggest problem I'd have would be the rule against cutting down trees larger than 4" in diameter without HOA approval. Neither the purpose of that rule nor its enforcement-in-fact are intended to prevent cutting down individual trees when diseased, or they become safety/nuisance hazards, or simply for the overall health of the surrounding trees, but rather intended to preserve the neighborhood's leafy character against anyone who would dramatically change their lot by gross clear-cutting.

OTOH, there are no rules against my sitting out in my driveway with either of my telescopes, whether at midnight or at 4am, whether bundled in warm clothes in winter or in my pajamas in mild weather. In fact, I kind of wish my being out there with telescope provoked more, rather than less, interest from my neighbors, who seem entirely content to let me be with this activity by night, without any signs of inclination to regard me by day as some sort of oddball. I still get invited to my very straight-laced next-door-neighbor's Christmas party every year, but perhaps my threat to sit out in my driveway and play my "Greatest Hits of Yodeling" CD at full volume if she didn't has something to do with getting that invite :=)

Edited by FirstSight (07/05/13 06:49 PM)


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csrlice12
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5955886 - 07/05/13 10:57 AM

The "Greatest Hits of Yodeling, Volume 3" is the best of the series....

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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5955977 - 07/05/13 11:50 AM



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JoeR
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 03/07/10

Loc: Columbus, OH
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5956025 - 07/05/13 12:28 PM

I've given up on home observing. Not that it was ever really great in a red zone but even lunar planetary observing is difficult. The condo association is the typical paranoid types that send out newsletters urging residents to keep all their outdoor lights on at all times. They also installed insanely bright flood light around the common areas. Plus I need privacy when I observe and I never get that here with the constant flow of traffic and dog walkers and beer porch parties. So even a 1 mile drive to a city park in a white zone is worth the effort. Someday I may escape this hole but not likely sine the value took a staggering dive. After 10 years the condo is now worth less than what I owe on it.

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amicus sidera
Post Laureate
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Reged: 10/14/11

Loc: East of the Sun, West of the M...
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5957616 - 07/06/13 02:13 PM

Quote:

I don't think his vocation has anything to do with him having this person charged. If we have to worry about retaliation for everytime we do something we feel is the right thing to do, it will certainly be sad. I don't know what locale you are in; but the majority of educators I've known, and I'm sure others have; do not have this "country folk" mentality; and we certainly do not know what this teacher's opinion is.




Just evoking the possibility, Carol; living on the outskirts of what amounts to one big metropolitan area which covers all or parts of seven states, my experience has been that the majority of educators hereabouts do not subscribe to the same values that the majority of rural folk do. Should one have the possibility of retaliation foremost in one's mind when doing what one feels is right? No, but unless the problem one encounters is of a sudden, split-second nature, it would be the part of wisdom to temper one's response after judging the situation.

Perhaps the individual who laid charges on that hunter, and started that chain of events that ended so badly, takes solace from knowing that he acted fully within his rights; however, methinks that, upon reflection, he would much rather have defused the situation.

Quote:

Would I have had the tresspasser charged? No, I would have had a pleasant discussion with him, asking him not to hunt on the property in the future. If he continued, then I might take the path this person did.




Very reasonable... that would have been my course of action, also.

Fred


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amicus sidera
Post Laureate
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Reged: 10/14/11

Loc: East of the Sun, West of the M...
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: JoeR]
      #5957630 - 07/06/13 02:24 PM

Quote:

I've given up on home observing. Not that it was ever really great in a red zone but even lunar planetary observing is difficult. The condo association is the typical paranoid types that send out newsletters urging residents to keep all their outdoor lights on at all times. They also installed insanely bright flood light around the common areas. Plus I need privacy when I observe and I never get that here with the constant flow of traffic and dog walkers and beer porch parties. So even a 1 mile drive to a city park in a white zone is worth the effort. Someday I may escape this hole but not likely sine the value took a staggering dive. After 10 years the condo is now worth less than what I owe on it.




Sorry to hear that you're upside-down on your condo; I've known of several folks in that situation. I can only imagine the hellishness of being faced with the prison-grade lighting that such places tend to encourage, as well as neighbors who most likely have never looked up once in their lives, metaphorically speaking. Hope that you get out as soon as is humanly possible; such environs can really drain one's soul, and must also be a difficult environment in which to be creative.

Sometimes it's best to just walk away and take what lumps one has to, rather than stay in an insanely intolerable situation.

Fred


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Mike B
Starstruck
*****

Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5957852 - 07/06/13 04:49 PM

Quote:

... that would have been my course of action, also.




Quote:

Where I own my country home, that would be a violation of an unwritten convention. It's sort of assumed that people can go onto their neighbors' land for legitimate purposes, which certainly includes hunting.

Obviously, it's polite to ask permission first. But when I catch somebody hunting on my land or my neighbor's land, I speak to them nicely, find out about their credentials, and if necessary, ask them politely to leave.



I'm sure this varies from place to place, but i think what i'm hearing Tony say is that, "if necessary, ask them to leave" might also be understood as the opposite, in a better scenario: if NOT necessary that they leave, they're fine to continue as they are.

If that home & property had been fine for the months or years prior to his purchase of it, with the locals hunting therein, then perhaps the situation wasn't "broken", nor in need of a "fix"?

In some ways this situation reminds me of the vulnerability one has with their food preparers & handlers while at a restaurant... FAR better to curry favor, and treat respectfully those who care for your food, than to pull rank & insist on your rights; you may get them... perhaps with flavor added.

So approaching the local hunter on your land, pleasantly inquiring about his rifle or ammo choice, experience, sharing stories, etc. might lead to some extra venison, pork, or quail, by surprise!


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csrlice12
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Mike B]
      #5957880 - 07/06/13 05:04 PM

hate to be the bucket of water here; but what if he accidentally shot someones child playing in the woods ON YOUR PROPERTY! You could be in for a bit of a civil legal action at a minimum.

I've lived in the country, and it was ALWAYS the kind thing to do to ask the landowner if it was ok to hunt on their land. That permission was also usually understood to be for the season and if something were to happen to change that, you'd call the hunter up and explain why....it's what they call being "neighbors"....


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Mike B
Starstruck
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Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5957933 - 07/06/13 05:40 PM

Quote:

...it was ALWAYS the kind thing to do to ask the landowner if it was ok to hunt on their land.



Of course, that just makes sense. However, when the owner is only there occasionally, and the place is generally uninhabited, the etiquette in the are may've been "try to ask, but if not practical to do so, don't sweat it- just be a good neighbor". But that will depend on location & the local sentiments therewith. Wouldn't work here in CA, i'm sure. If you're an unauthorized trespasser here, you're probably assumed to be growing or cooking an illegal cash-crop.

I've considered attempting the "permission" route here in CA for hunting faint fuzzies, using someone's rural property for a dark + secure location. We ended up "leasing" a rural property in an astro-friendly "CSC-blue" subdivision, an undeveloped lot with dirt-road access, for nominal costs. For our small group this has been perfect.

I'm quite sure it pays to inquire about these things locally- before getting antagonistic, flexing muscles, and/or calling in the heat.


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cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/26/12

Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Mike B]
      #5958060 - 07/06/13 07:14 PM

Seems to be a lot of blaming the victim going on here.

Chris


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Mike B
Starstruck
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Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: cn register 5]
      #5958126 - 07/06/13 08:16 PM

No, you're right Chris- the retaliation described was not in any way justified. Even if the locals perceived they'd been wronged by the home owner's reaction, their OWN reaction was out of line, out of scale, and inexcusable!

I don't know what type of fine they might've incurred... maybe a dead fish left on the porch as a "thank-you" would've better fit the occasion? I dunno... there was clearly an "us-and-them" antagonism working on both sides of this.

Pertinent to the thread's title, however, might be the underlying theme of general human nature & its truly unfortunate tendency towards inappropriate action, and reaction. As Spock might say, "the very flower of humanity".


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guangtou
sage


Reged: 03/27/10

Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Mike B]
      #5961752 - 07/09/13 06:45 AM

"some form of tit-for-tat repercussion was almost a certainty"

The kind of person who would retaliate by burglarizing someone's home would be unlikely to respond positively to a nice chat. Someone walking around with a gun on my property would also definitely get to explain that to the police.

I've been in real estate for a while now and have met my fair share of folks who do not understand or care about boundaries. A nice talk to an intentional trespasser will be perceived as weakness. Usually the only thing that gets their attention is legal action.

That being said, it is true once you go down that road things change.

I for one plan to retire in one of those astro-friendly communities where the biggest tension between neighbors should be whose scope slews the loudest.


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csrlice12
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: guangtou]
      #5961894 - 07/09/13 09:44 AM

Remember, big dobs can be used as searchlights in an emergency; it's one advantage they have over refractors; in a pinch you can use the mirror to cook pizza with, signal rescuers, shave, or put a light in it and point out things in the sky at night. My AP neighbor hates it when I do that......the pizza's pretty good though

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tecmageModerator
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 01/13/10

Loc: Glenview, IL
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5962057 - 07/09/13 11:54 AM

The topic of this thread is about Home Owners' Associations.

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obin robinson
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/25/12

Loc: League City, TX
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: vsteblina]
      #5962410 - 07/09/13 03:48 PM

Quote:

For those of you looking for rural property without the fear of bright rural lights......find communities off-the-grid. There are lots of them throughout the United States....1.5 million people's worth.




What stinks is that when we lived in a rural valley out in the middle of nowhere with pitch black skies and perfect seeing I had no money for telescopes. Now that we have the money all we have is horrible light pollution in this suburban perpetual twilight.

obin


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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
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Reged: 06/24/03

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: obin robinson]
      #5965868 - 07/11/13 03:05 PM

I live in an HOA with rules:
--no streetlights in the HOA
--any/all house exterior lighting has to have its source not be visible from the street or neighbor's yard.
That's the good news.
The bad news?
I live in the middle of Los Angeles--a tiny red zone oasis in a white zone.
My night sky is orange. What color is yours?

Edited by Starman1 (07/11/13 03:08 PM)


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csrlice12
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Starman1]
      #5965876 - 07/11/13 03:10 PM

"My night sky is orange. What color is yours?"

What is this "Night" thing you talk about????

Denver Tech Center White Zone, where the lights not only shine outward, but up too........


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Mike B
Starstruck
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Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5965944 - 07/11/13 03:50 PM

Quote:

where the lights not only shine outward, but up too........



Our dark-sky site, in a "blue" zone, is about 22 miles as the condor flies from a state prison... a facility that throws at least as much light UP into the night sky as it does downward onto the grounds & buildings. It appears as a soft glow on our s-westerly horizon...

We figger this stems from a rash of night-time helicopter prison escapes depicted in the movies... they sure aren't gonna get away with it here in CA!


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csrlice12
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Mike B]
      #5966049 - 07/11/13 04:52 PM

Hey helicopters require quite a bit of light to be able to land at night.........

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frolinmod
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 08/06/10

Loc: Southern California
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5966230 - 07/11/13 07:16 PM

Quote:

My night sky is orange. What color is yours?



Mine is milky white because of all the water vapor a nearby 500KW power plant spews into the air 24/7/365. It's like being at the bottom of a bowl of clam chowder.


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DonMendoza
member


Reged: 01/23/12

Loc: Greensboro NC
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: frolinmod]
      #5966412 - 07/11/13 09:49 PM

20 miles east of Manhattan. there is no night. after the sun sets, the clouds are orange, clear sky is pink.

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Kfrank
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/20/08

Loc: Northern Colorado
Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: DonMendoza]
      #5967200 - 07/12/13 11:08 AM

Quote:

20 miles east of Manhattan. there is no night. after the sun sets, the clouds are orange, clear sky is pink.




So, Union County, NJ is in the Atlantic Ocean?


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csrlice12
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Re: The battle with HOA has began. new [Re: Kfrank]
      #5967211 - 07/12/13 11:15 AM

No, it's just not dark...

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