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Rick Woods
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: David Knisely]
      #6023407 - 08/13/13 04:33 PM

Quote:

Again, in a couple of days or so, Maginus will be in sunlight once again, so if it looks the same as it always has, nothing probably happened.




Maybe, maybe not. Depending on the nature of the event, the traces of it happening could have entirely disappeared, or at least be too minute for detection from Earth.

Trblmkr, I have no problem with the use of the term "high energy"; if something really did happen to obscure that large an area of the Moon, there was certainly some energy involved somewhere!


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David Knisely
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #6023813 - 08/13/13 07:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Again, in a couple of days or so, Maginus will be in sunlight once again, so if it looks the same as it always has, nothing probably happened.




Maybe, maybe not. Depending on the nature of the event, the traces of it happening could have entirely disappeared, or at least be too minute for detection from Earth.

Trblmkr, I have no problem with the use of the term "high energy"; if something really did happen to obscure that large an area of the Moon, there was certainly some energy involved somewhere!




Again, that is assuming the event was a real one, which may not really be a valid assumption. There are simply way too many things that it could have been caused by here on Earth to make that much of a leap. If he had more data showing before and after (minutes, not seconds), and if the image quality was considerably higher, then I might be more willing to consider a lunar event interpretation. However, the image is poor in resolution, the sequence is brief, it was taken afocally through more optics than most imagers would use for the task, potentially processed in an unknown way, and the area in question has surface features and albedeos consistent with a slight brightening on the floor of the crater that was already in-place. Seeing variations can easily cause this sort of thing to happen by blurring and distorting some of the finer brighter surface detail to make it look like this alleged "plume" like brightening. Indeed, the central mountain group area on the floor of Maginus along with the bright asymmetrical ejecta blanket from the small (5 km diam.) crater centered 23 km to the southeast of the center of Maginus A can contribute to that effect if the seeing gets bad locally (this is starting to remind me of the famous but silly "Curtis Cross" of the 1960's). Indeed, in the first frame of the OP's sequence, the brightest portion of the "plume" seems centered directly on that little 5 km crater. I for one am still not completely convinced that the images firmly can be interpreted as something on or near the surface of the moon, and to use the words "high energy activity" is somewhat premature to say the least. Let's see what we see when the sun comes up on Maginus tomorrow night and Thursday. Clear skies to you.


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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: pdxmoon]
      #6024181 - 08/13/13 11:19 PM

Some of You guys are overlooking this :

"The plume is moving around like a blown hose. "

An utterly impossible outcome on the moon.


"Seems like a few rocks being tossed as well. "

Sure - if the rocks are a mile across .

And then the staggering part: following this *event* no one in all of earth snapped a pic - at the time of it, shortly after, an hour later, 4 hours later - a day later - where clearly the ejecta would've been there in all its glory. The luck of the draw sadly was not one astronomer on earth shot a follow up .


A revisit a month later will show no more than anyone's imaged the following 24 hours where nothing at all was evident to snyone at any level. The fact that this was a series of lousy low res photos rather than a a video run, stacked and processed is also a red flag. Anyone claiming fifty years of experience with brag rights to purchasing high end equipment doesn't shoot junk like this. A person who knows nothing about imaging with little experience at all would do the photo burst technique since its a simple photoshop touch up affair with none of the bother of editing movie stills.

Can someone show me the rocks that were blown hither and yon in all if this?

Also - what professionals in the field have reviewed this account. Its been long enough for a turn around. Who received this and what did the pros say? If this person even had a gram of belief this was a real event it would've gone out to the pros long ago.




Pete

Edited by azure1961p (08/13/13 11:28 PM)


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6024299 - 08/14/13 12:39 AM

I'm *very*sceptical, but prefer to consider how the data--such as it is--conforms to or departs from expectation. In the process, we all learn a bit more; at least I have so far.

What would be good to have clarified... Was this event noted as it happened, or instead after reviewing the images. If the former, anyone would naturally keep collecting data for a considerable time afterward, provided the Moon was sufficiently well placed in the sky, of course.

If there was an impact event, any ejecta would be best seen at full Moon.


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pdxmoon
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6025322 - 08/14/13 02:54 PM

I'm with Pete.

And so, I'm

...outta here.


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Starhunter249
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: pdxmoon]
      #6026144 - 08/14/13 10:57 PM

I been reading this thread since it posted. Tonight, inspired by the controversy, I took a look at Maginus. It was mostly out of the shadow. Nothing seemed different from comparing archived photos to tonight's views. Mindful that Earth's atmosphere and the resolution limits of my telescope probably wont reveal a new crater or debris trails.

I am in camp that this is a real event and it will take a seasoned astronomer with good photography equipment to detect the source of this anomaly. My theory is that it was an impact in the wall of the crater. The dust and rock were ejected in a somewhat horizontal motion parallel with the moon's surface in the opposite direction of the object's motion. Since there is no atmosphere on the moon, dust and rock fall back to surface relatively quickly like nothing ever happened. The crater from what I read is 192 km in diameter and 4.3 km deep. Its possible the depth and size of crater contained most of the material kicked up in the crater wall impact.

Impact events on jupiter and on our moon are starting to nudge me into getting video recording equipment for my telescope.


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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Starhunter249]
      #6026280 - 08/15/13 12:08 AM

Well you are profoundly wrong. Since there is no atmosphere the dust/debris does not fall back down as if nothing ever happened. In fact its all about what has happened in that the gravity which is 80% weaker than our own couples with no wind resistance would have the ejecta travel vast distances and with great symmetry as well. More over no impact with mile size *rocks* being blown from the area would need a a powerful instrument with expert attention as a follow up confirmation. It'd be glaringly obvious with any scope looking at that crater. There is no high ground of evidence of anything that may have occurred on the moon. There is no "camp" . Its not my opinion its the fact that there is no fact at all to support any notion of a lunar phenomenon here.

Pete


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Asbytec
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #6026303 - 08/15/13 12:24 AM

Quote:

I'm *very*sceptical, but prefer to consider how the data--such as it is--conforms to or departs from expectation. In the process, we all learn a bit more; at least I have so far.

If there was an impact event, any ejecta would be best seen at full Moon.




I'm with Glenn, so

Lunar impact events do occur. Question is, does the sequence provided indicate one. I'd love to see hi res before and after images.

I suspect a grazing impact could have produce asymmetrical ejecta. Being "wind blown" is not possible, sure, but it could simply be an illusion as shadows cast change over time - with height of the ejecta over short intervals.


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David Knisely
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Starhunter249]
      #6026312 - 08/15/13 12:33 AM

I also looked at Maginius tonight. It looks the same as it has always looked, although it did give me a chance to try out my friend's 3-6mm Nagler zoom eyepiece (a keeper BTW). Based on what I saw (or more importantly, what I didn't see) as well as the factors I have mentioned before, I remain somewhat unconvinced that anything happened there recently. Clear skies to you.

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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: David Knisely]
      #6026586 - 08/15/13 07:16 AM

Glad the Nagler zoom is a success David. I wrestle over the idea from time to time - I love the 3mm reach it can provide and Ive read nothing but great reviews of it. I then think just about getting a 3mm ortho from Siebert. Of course then I lose out on the 3.5mm ability and everything else inbetween.

Pete


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Starhunter249
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6026656 - 08/15/13 08:31 AM

Pete, there are many possibilities. Its a hoax, a trick of light and shadow, issues with the equipment used, or could be a real event. Many are skeptics, some believe it could be real, and some are no way in hell this is real. This is what I mean by camps. I am in the camp that it could be a real event and needs to be looked into.

No atmosphere means stuff is going to fly farther, no air resistance, but its not going to stay up forever either. On earth with our atmosphere, air resistance and wind can cause the dust and debris to linger above the surface a lot longer. Feathers and hammers fall down at the same rate with no atmosphere. Same with moon dust and boulders.

If this is a real event, consider the possibility of the impact blowing up more dust than rock. There might not be much change to the landscape that is detectable for earth based amateur telescopes. Professionals and the Lunar Recon Orbiter would settle the controversy.

Man has looked upon the moon since the dawn of our existence but only since the first time Galileo pointed his telescope to the moon did we begin to truly explore it. After 400 years of studying the moon with instruments and astronauts, i think its very premature to think we know nearly everything about the moon and the nature of impacts.


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brianb11213
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Starhunter249]
      #6026868 - 08/15/13 10:40 AM

Quote:

If this is a real event, consider the possibility of the impact blowing up more dust than rock.



That's a certainty not merely a possibility.

Quote:

There might not be much change to the landscape that is detectable for earth based amateur telescopes. Professionals and the Lunar Recon Orbiter would settle the controversy.



Excavated material will tend to be lighter & if material is thrown out in this way, especially dust, it will surely show up as a fresh lunar ray under high sunlight, even if the impact crater is too small to be readily visible. In fact the material thrown out must have been lighter than the general lunar surface for it to be visible in the original images, if an impact event is what has been captured.

I remain deeply skeptical.


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Dean Norris
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: brianb11213]
      #6027260 - 08/15/13 01:59 PM

I was able to observe the Moon last night under marginal seeing conditions. I was only able to use 171x which at this magnification, Maginus had no new or altered features from what I could tell. I examined the entire basin as well as focusing on the Maginus A area. I was using the 21st Atlas of the Moon which has an excellent image of this walled basin as a reference. I will continue to look every night it's clear looking for any signs through the full moon phase. Whatever happens I appreciate the opportunity to explore this issue with the people on this forum.

Dean


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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: brianb11213]
      #6027269 - 08/15/13 02:04 PM

Starhunter,

You are consistently wrong on all contentions. You ought to do a little reading. Your understandings of lunar cause and affect are not accurate and as a result you are enshrouding this in mystery that doesn't apply. Your expounding on man and science is lofty but tethered to misinformation.

Pete


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Rick Woods
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6027640 - 08/15/13 05:01 PM

Pete, would you elaborate? I'm not seeing where Starhunter is in error.
You seem to be in an awful rush to discredit this observation. Do you know something you're not telling?
Personally, I'm agnostic about it. I have no reason to doubt the integrity of the OP; then again, there are plenty of things it could be that don't entail a hoax (equipment issues, etc). I'll remain agnostic until further evidence appears one way or the other.


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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #6027912 - 08/15/13 07:48 PM

Rick!!!

When some one tells you they saw rocks blown away from gas and dust jetting out like a blown hose - its not possible. Its been a month and there hasn't been a single shred of supporting evidence and no specialists have noted any such thing. Nor anyone on earth in the ensuing days when such a rock blasting event would have been freshly evident. See Brianbs post. From execution to presentation this has been one long joke.

You could say Trouble has been made.

Lol - I'm still looking for the rocks!


Any things possible. This however - when its all added up together - is extraordinarily improbable. Its not the specific isolated details but the presentation as a whole.




Pete

Edited by azure1961p (08/15/13 08:51 PM)


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Rick Woods
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6028256 - 08/15/13 11:28 PM

Well, maybe. I guess we'll see. I did notice that the OP has disappeared from the discussion.

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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #6028284 - 08/15/13 11:46 PM

Hey what did you think of David Grays mars drawing in the apodizer thread? Just 4" that small disc but he, like you had the aperture to reach out there like that. Tell me what you think!

Peye


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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A [Re: Rick Woods]
      #6028285 - 08/15/13 11:46 PM

Hey what did you think of David Grays mars drawing in the apodizer thread? Just 4" that small disc but he, like you had the aperture to reach out there like that. Tell me what you think!

Pete


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RobDob
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A [Re: azure1961p]
      #6028377 - 08/16/13 12:53 AM Attachment (7 downloads)

Nice moon tonight, was compelled to go out and see if Maginus will reveal any changes. I could only manage about 250x and about 3km resolution because of seeing. This afocal shot is pretty close to what the eye sees. Pic is taken through my Z12 and 6mm Z-planetary eyepiece.

Rob


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