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Trblmkr
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Reged: 07/24/13

Loc: Central & Southern Maryland
July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A
      #5990298 - 07/25/13 09:08 PM Attachment (107 downloads)

Hello to all, this is my first post so please forgive me if I do not get everything right. On July 17 at approx 10:57 pm while shooting several frames I seem to have caught a high energy event that caused a substantial plume to form over Maginus. Did anyone else catch this event?

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RobDob
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #5990605 - 07/26/13 12:53 AM Attachment (69 downloads)

Hey Troublemaker, welcome to the Lunie Bin !

That is an interesting shot!

Here's for reference, a pic I took 11/23/12:


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Trblmkr
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Reged: 07/24/13

Loc: Central & Southern Maryland
Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: RobDob]
      #5990656 - 07/26/13 01:57 AM

Thanks for the welcome and a response. I actually have a series of 10 shots from that set and made a 10 second movie out of them. The plume is moving around like a blown hose. Seems like a few rocks being tossed as well. Is there a seismology report a person can get there hands on ?(LOL) . Any idea what caused this??

Thanks for the reference pic it lines up nicely.


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Dean Norris
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #5991426 - 07/26/13 02:45 PM

Mark,

Welcome to CN. Your image of the crater Maginus does look interesting! It would be great to see your animation of this event and or the additional images you have. You could send your images and info to ALPO - Lunar section for some feedback on what this could possibly be. Landslide along the crater wall? Impact from a large meteorite? Volcanic activity? Though I don't think there are any domes in the area but I will need to look into this. Recently I began observing the Moon more and have been using some new Lunar atlases. I'll check out this area the next opportunity I get.

Thanks for posting. Dean

Edited by Dean Norris (07/26/13 02:53 PM)


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Greyhaven
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #5991602 - 07/26/13 04:31 PM

Mark Welcome to CN and thanks for sharing your shot. I'd love to see the series you took. That could answer the question or rule out some possible causes.
Be Well
Grey


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Trblmkr
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Reged: 07/24/13

Loc: Central & Southern Maryland
Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Greyhaven]
      #5991798 - 07/26/13 06:42 PM

Thank You All for the responses.

I would happily share the series I have but I'm not sure where the "ALPO - Lunar Section" is actually located, I will however look again. (Please pardon my Newbiness javascript:void(0)). Of course you can always tell me where to go - most others do already so I won't be offended LOL. javascript:void(0)

Thanks Again


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Dean Norris
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #5992207 - 07/26/13 11:43 PM

Here's a link to ALPO website.

http://alpo-astronomy.org/

Scroll down and on the left side you will see the observing sections. You will find the Lunar section there.

Dean


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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Dean Norris]
      #5992561 - 07/27/13 08:08 AM

I'd be very cautious about referring to it as a "high energy event" unless you are referring to the seeing and transient light and shadow effects. I'm quite sure there was no plume. Unless u r referring to events within the last 50 million years barring the small impacts - the moon is seismically dead. What's more if it were an active volcano or out gassing it wouldn't be a snaking plume appearing to blow downwind for obvious reasons. If you want to see what plumes look like in a vacuum I'd refer you to Io.



Pete

Edited by azure1961p (07/27/13 08:19 AM)


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Trblmkr
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Reged: 07/24/13

Loc: Central & Southern Maryland
Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5992674 - 07/27/13 09:59 AM

As we all know It is difficult to say with absolute certainty what the mechanism(s) may have been that caused the disturbance. I agree it was likely not volcanically induced, as far as seismic there may be a better chance albeit a very small chance of that either, so also agree that it was not likely the cause but I know very little about those 2 subjects so I'm not really qualified to say.

The evidence when considered at face value which consist of 10 frames over ~ 1 second period placed in a series show what appears to be a massive discharge of dust. The discharge is quit visible at the crater entrance of what is believed to be Maginus A. There is also indication of the physical impact this discharge has on the surrounding area as rocks are being visibly thrown considerable distances.

In as far as Transient Light and Shadow affects, I'm not sure how that would be applied to the amount of energy required to push say 1k lbs or more of dust 500-5000 ft upward under what ever gravitational constant that exists at that location. Nor am I sure where the idea of a plume being blown downwind came from. The only observation that can be made is that it was blown upward. I use the definition of plume as follows; In Ecology - A space in air, water, or soil containing pollutants released from a point source. Realizing of course this is literally a Space in Space rather than air (LOL).

After observing the evidence many times I find it is difficult to refute that it is strongly suggesting/indicating there was significant energy involved in this event the question is, where did it come from??????

I think it is totally neat no matter what and I appreciate Your Input. http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Also I am working to get the images posted here in someway. Unfortunately the site does not support any movie formats for upload. http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif

Edited by Trblmkr (07/27/13 10:57 AM)


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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #5992752 - 07/27/13 10:44 AM

I think it'd help if you posted your entire vid of this segment. The plume being blown downwind analogy was based on your comment that it was plume appearing. That it was writhing like a hose would only happen if their were an atmosphere to move it or equally unlikely that it was a venting off of gas and dust through a fissure that was undergoing change to send it in varying directions. At this point it could just be a processing error. The entire vid of this segment submitted to the imaging forum for review would be the best way forward from here. Its also not too unbelievable that a persons first post whose an "amature" troublemaker could have just photoshoped such a contrivance for the sake of a troll.

Pete


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Trblmkr
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Reged: 07/24/13

Loc: Central & Southern Maryland
Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5992843 - 07/27/13 11:37 AM

Quote:

I think it'd help if you posted your entire vid of this segment. The plume being blown downwind analogy was based on your comment that it was plume appearing. That it was writhing like a hose would only happen if their were an atmosphere to move it or equally unlikely that it was a venting off of gas and dust through a fissure that was undergoing change to send it in varying directions. At this point it could just be a processing error. The entire vid of this segment submitted to the imaging forum for review would be the best way forward from here. Its also not too unbelievable that a persons first post whose an "amature" troublemaker could have just photoshoped such a contrivance for the sake of a troll.

Pete



I can't imagine what would the point be in trying to photoshop a lunar event like this. What purpose would it serve? My only purpose is to share not to deceive!
Beyond that to say that an amateur "troublemaker" posted it, apparently I'll have to demonstrate in some way my professional abilities to cause trouble. BACKGROUND - The Nic comes from my day job as Compliance Enforcement, I'm always in the middle of sorting out and fixing some major issue thus being viewed as a professional "Trouble Maker". At the end of the day though its all about the facts.
If you like PM me about the Lunar pic sequence availability.


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Trblmkr
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Reged: 07/24/13

Loc: Central & Southern Maryland
Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #5992917 - 07/27/13 12:24 PM

See pics posted - these are zoomed in pics that make up the sequence.
http://www.cloudynights.com/photopost/showgallery.php?ppuser=221102&cat=500


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NeilMac
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #5992973 - 07/27/13 12:58 PM

Welcome !
very interesting, If it is a cloud, would that not suggest a "non" vacuum area?


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Trblmkr
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Reged: 07/24/13

Loc: Central & Southern Maryland
Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: NeilMac]
      #5993021 - 07/27/13 01:24 PM

Somehow thru some means of differential pressure or mechanical ejection the dust was moved from the subsurface of the moon and out of the crater to the surface.
I'm not sure what the actual absolute pressure is on the surface I have heard there is some atmosphere, if so the pressure would be greater than 0 PSIA or 29.92" Hg (complete vacuum) at the surface. Even if it were 5 psia that is little resistance to the potential required to create a cloud of that magnitude. May have to do some rudimentary calculation on what it might take.


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David Knisely
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #5993097 - 07/27/13 02:07 PM

The resolution of the original image seems rather low with some distortion in the outer sections. A sudden seeing variation can also lead to a reduction in clarity over a small area, making details blur to a point where the image looks like a plume when it is really just blurred surface detail combined with surface albedo. Again, we would need to see the whole series of images to get a better judgement of what is might have been (and even then, there might be a question of its being anything more than an imaging effect rather than a true plume). Clear skies to you.

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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: David Knisely]
      #5993218 - 07/27/13 03:54 PM

A PM isn't required for posting . You can upload it to Vimeo or YouTube. Something anyone can do.

Pete


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Dean Norris
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: David Knisely]
      #5993222 - 07/27/13 03:55 PM

Thanks for posting the sequence of images. The "plume" does seem to grow larger in size and diminish in intensity form first to last. This is a compelling set of images.

Dean


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Trblmkr
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Reged: 07/24/13

Loc: Central & Southern Maryland
Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: David Knisely]
      #5993243 - 07/27/13 04:13 PM

Not sure if you followed the link to the cut & zoomed pics located in the user gallery.

http://www.cloudynights.com/photopost/showgallery.php?ppuser=221102&cat=500
I would agree looking at only the small pics does not necessarily provide clarity. Though I am willing to provide, the technical limitations of this site prevents uploading the original images as they are over 2 meg ea. The area covered by the originals can be seen in the compressed master at the link above. If there is real interest in examining a copy of the originals please PM me. Also i have found using the Picasa viewer allows an expanded view without excess distortion. Hope this helps.


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Trblmkr
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Reged: 07/24/13

Loc: Central & Southern Maryland
Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5993259 - 07/27/13 04:26 PM

I will look into this but I was under the impression that they would have to be in a video form rather than stills for You Tube. I have found there is a significant loss of resolution when converting stills to Video.No matter there is plenty more to look at. It just takes time to convert for posting. In order to maintain the original resolution I may just post them on Picasa and provide a link.

Thanks for the info!!


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pdxmoon
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #5993438 - 07/27/13 06:38 PM

Why don't you just post this to Youtube and let us take a look?

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RobDob
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Reged: 04/10/10

Loc: Brentwood (East Bay Area), CA
Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: pdxmoon]
      #5993982 - 07/28/13 12:57 AM Attachment (44 downloads)

I made a movie with Windows Movie Maker using Mark's 10 frames with 1 sec frame interval. Very interesting...

I'm wondering if this was an impact event. Those first few frames show a condensed, bright region (suggestive of an impact?) with a dissipating plume spreading outward in the subsequent frames. Some craters and features were obscured, then re-appear. Most bizarre!

We really need to re-visit this crater next month and see if there is any noticeable difference.

Rob


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RobDob
sage


Reged: 04/10/10

Loc: Brentwood (East Bay Area), CA
Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: RobDob]
      #5994019 - 07/28/13 01:40 AM

Look at frames 1 through 5, looks like there is a shadow cast at the end of the plume. Go to frame 10, seems to have settled.

Don't think there is too much seeing/lighting variation, because the outlying craters remain fairly consistent.

Fascinating! Great work Mark!

Rob


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steveward53
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: pdxmoon]
      #5994048 - 07/28/13 02:03 AM

Just get on and make the animated GIF , post it on Astrobin with the full size images and then post links to it on here .

I'm getting tired of the troll-like answers you are providing , as I suspect is everyone else ...


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RobDob
sage


Reged: 04/10/10

Loc: Brentwood (East Bay Area), CA
Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: steveward53]
      #5994079 - 07/28/13 02:41 AM Attachment (18 downloads)

I took a comparison mosaic of frame 2 to frame 10. To me it appears that the plume has settled outward to the upper right edge of the crater in frame 10.

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Trblmkr
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Reged: 07/24/13

Loc: Central & Southern Maryland
Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #5994553 - 07/28/13 11:27 AM

UPDATE See YOU TUBE LINK BELOW
1 WMV format video consisting of three sets of 10 frames.
Set 1 from a distance with cropped edges, 1 Close Zoom and Cropped then repeated. Stop the video on the Close Zoom and Crop for great detail of the discharge.

Also I found some reference material that may point to an exact location of the discharge. I'll post later today. Sorry I'm slow, this stuff is a bit labor intensive.
I must thank those that have taken a serious interest in this unusual lunar event. Your efforts to validate and understand what actually occurred will ultimately help everyone.

Thanks For your patients!!!

Maginus 1

Edited by Trblmkr (07/28/13 12:37 PM)


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Trblmkr
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Reged: 07/24/13

Loc: Central & Southern Maryland
Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: steveward53]
      #5994573 - 07/28/13 11:38 AM

Quote:

Just get on and make the animated GIF , post it on Astrobin with the full size images and then post links to it on here .

I'm getting tired of the troll-like answers you are providing , as I suspect is everyone else ...



Dude-Chill!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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steveward53
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Loc: Newmarket,UK
Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #5994700 - 07/28/13 12:51 PM

That's a slideshow not an animation ... I'm perfectly chilled , I just grow weary of trolls.

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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: steveward53]
      #5995029 - 07/28/13 04:07 PM

Yeah this was nonsense from the moment the screen name was created.


Pete


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steveward53
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5995043 - 07/28/13 04:17 PM

Exactly , glad I'm not the only one ...

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Trblmkr
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Reged: 07/24/13

Loc: Central & Southern Maryland
Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: steveward53]
      #5995437 - 07/28/13 08:36 PM

I have found a close analysis of the pictures revels enough pertinent information to move forward for a more definitive analysis however if anyone feels the need and has the time to create an animation, the pics are posted so please help yourself.

For others interested and who would like to constructively contribute please feel free to add any information or links relating to known similar events.

Thanks for your input.


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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #5995668 - 07/28/13 10:29 PM

Well that's just it. There's no need to create an animation. Simply upload the video segment to YouTube. Here , Ill help you out: get Image Ready by ADOBE, create a little animate of the stills, tell everyone its raw vid straight out of the cam and your all set. Oh heck, add some color.

Pete


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Trblmkr
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Reged: 07/24/13

Loc: Central & Southern Maryland
Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5995808 - 07/29/13 12:07 AM

Stills are there if you feel the need help yourself.

Flame Out...

Enjoy!


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THEPLOUGH
ELEVEN Grandchildren; FIVE Ducklings
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #5996433 - 07/29/13 12:01 PM

Let's try and keep it civil folks otherwise it's............

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Trblmkr
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Reged: 07/24/13

Loc: Central & Southern Maryland
Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: THEPLOUGH]
      #5996780 - 07/29/13 03:05 PM

Close exam of the pics seem to indicate the flow or path is more horizontal rather than vertical this coincides with Robs observation of it settling out toward the end of the crater. Also the actual point of the source is close to being identified. There is still significant work to do but hope to post some evidence to support this in a few days.
Thanks for your observations and feedback.


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sc285
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Loc: KS
Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #5997149 - 07/29/13 06:59 PM

Trblmkr:

Just curious:
You used your 10" dob to take the pics?
What is the focal length of the scope?
Did you use barlow(s)?
What type of camera did you use?
How many frames were the video clips?
What image processing software did you use?
How did you process the images?

Inquiring mind wants to know the method used to capture the images.

Rob


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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: sc285]
      #5997404 - 07/29/13 10:23 PM

Rob,

He's giving himself a "few days" to answer your questions.

Pete


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Trblmkr
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Reged: 07/24/13

Loc: Central & Southern Maryland
Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: sc285]
      #5997460 - 07/29/13 10:59 PM Attachment (20 downloads)

Great Questions, here is the skinny
Scope Orion XT 250mm Primary 1250 FL for an F5
EP 35mm Tele-Vue Pan Optic coupled to a 2x Tele-Vue Barlow
The Camera is a 16.2 MP Sony DSC-HX9V secured in a Steady Pix scope mount with home brew mod long extension.
Setting were Manual Mode - 10 shot Burst Setting w/10Sec auto delay timer 1/250 sec exp, f/3.3, ISO 800, 4mm FL, No zoom.
Picture were imported using Win 7 base file transfer
Post processing software was U-Lead I Photo 8 which is a 10+ year old program that is no longer supported but works great.
Processing consisted of Brightness Reduction, contrast increase and gamma increase on the copied cropped smaller images. All originals remain untouched with the exception of #8 which was unintentionally saved after a wide crop. Brightness and Contrast remain original.
See pic for optics arrangement.


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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #5997568 - 07/29/13 11:59 PM

Ok Im convinced.

There's a plume of material blowing across the floor of the crater. Its so obvious now. I also saw rocks being blown hither and yon as he claims in the OP.

My apologies.

Pete

Edited by azure1961p (07/30/13 07:45 AM)


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Asbytec
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5997710 - 07/30/13 02:19 AM

You know, I agree with Dean and Rob. Those are interesting images. They might be consistent with an impact throwing some debris off to one side with altitude casting a shadow. It does not have to be wind blown plume, it can simply be asymmetric ejecta from a grazing impact. And just because such events are rare, doesn't mean they don't happen and someone couldn't image it. Being in the right place at the right time does happen.

However, from an inquiring mind, it could well be some effect other than an actual impact, as David said. If the 'event' was photoshopped, and I am not in the conspiracy camp...I'm in the curiously skeptical camp pending further investigation, it was a pretty good photo job. I guess many hoaxes are well done.

What might be interesting to pursue is a search of the region to see if there is, indeed, and new crater there. My guess is it would likely be very small. Small rocks fly about in space and enter the earth's atmosphere quite often, generally speaking. Last year, somewhere in Russia. Right? There is no reason one cannot strike the moon without burning up in it's (non) atmosphere.

Sure, I guess such events are so very rare that they are not frequently reported, if any ever have, in the history of lunar observation. So, being skeptical is a virtue. However, no doubt the moon collects debris all the time, however, and the vast majority of which are probably way too small for ground based observations. But, while it could be a 'non event,' a hoax or an actual event needs further investigation.

I'd like to know the time between the images, as well as all the camera, scope, conditions, and lunar details. There could be some calculation to determine if the "plume" settled according to the laws of gravity, for example. That could be a convincing bit of information either suggesting an event occurred (or someone has the knowledge to create a hoax.) Or, maybe future independent images of Maginus A may show a brighter, fresh ejecta blanket.

I'd report it to some high level research center. Another CN member was in the news last year for discovering something (can't remember what.) Get a crater named after it's discoverer...Crater Trouble Maker. Or maybe it's just a covert CIA manufacturing facility having a Chernobyl event. LOL


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Rick Woods
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5999260 - 07/30/13 10:59 PM

I'm a little surprised at the hostility I'm seeing here.
If this is a hoax, then ha ha, well done.

Otherwise, let's consider what if it's a real event. Possibly the aftermath of an impact? A close look at high-res before and after shots might be instructive. Also, has anyone searched the web; did anyone else see this?


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Asbytec
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5999318 - 07/30/13 11:56 PM

Rick, maybe the plume is bovine flatulence further supporting my theory over the chicken feet concept.

(Not ridicule of this observation, but ref to an earlier humorous lunar thread.)


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brianb11213
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5999487 - 07/31/13 03:31 AM

Quote:

I'm a little surprised at the hostility I'm seeing here.
If this is a hoax, then ha ha, well done.

Otherwise, let's consider what if it's a real event. Possibly the aftermath of an impact? A close look at high-res before and after shots might be instructive. Also, has anyone searched the web; did anyone else see this?



Yeah, I agree with this: are there any lunar orbiters which have high resolution imaged this area in the past and could be tasked to do so again?

I really don't know what's going on here. I'm more than a little skeptical of the impact origin, not because I don't believe it can happen but because the "plume" seems to be inconsistent: the bright spot which might indicate an impact point together with the sharpest part of the plume appears to be at the 8 o'clock position relative to the crater centre in the early frames, transferring to the 2 o'clock position in the later frames, which leads me to suspect that this might be an imaging artifact of some sort, possibly an internal reflection of some sort or other.

Nevertheless I consider this to be an interesting observation worthy of professional follow-up.

One thing is certain: lunar impacts do occur and eventually will be well documented.


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brianb11213
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: brianb11213]
      #5999525 - 07/31/13 04:45 AM

Further reflection reinforces my skepticism.

Is the bright plume shining by reflection or by its own heat? If by reflection (the impact dug up brighter material from beneath the lunar surface) it should remain visible as a bright ray long after the event. If the plume was hot enough to shine by direct radiation, the impact point should have been a whole lot brighter.

As I say, I do believe that observable impacts occur, but rather rarely, and I also believe that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Without wishing to insult the integrity or honesty of the original poster, I do not believe that the image sequence proves a "high energy" event occurred on or near the lunar surface, and I will cling to that belief unless and until high resolution "before & after" images proving me wrong become available.

BTW: just for information: has anyone calculated the observable effect of a small asteroid (similar to that which impacted over Russia earlier this year) on the lunar surface - in terms of the brightness of the impact flash, the probable size of the impact crater or the observability of the ejecta cloud as it increases in size, thins out in density and eventually falls back to the surface?


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Trblmkr
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5999567 - 07/31/13 06:07 AM

Quote:

I'm a little surprised at the hostility I'm seeing here.
If this is a hoax, then ha ha, well done.

Otherwise, let's consider what if it's a real event. Possibly the aftermath of an impact? A close look at high-res before and after shots might be instructive. Also, has anyone searched the web; did anyone else see this?




Thank You Thank You Very Much.
I can't even begin to consider how or why anyone would even try to make this up. It is what it is.
Personally I'm awe struck by the fact that it happened and even more so because it was actually recorded. Truly a once in a lifetime event.
How often do things like this happen and no one was the wiser either because it was not seen, not recorded and most importantly WAS NOT SHARED!!.
Why do we invest significant resources on this activity? Among other things it is to learn, it is to achieve a higher level of consciousness about our place in the galactic neighborhood, it is the hope that I may be at the right place at the right time to witness astronomical events and when they occur wow, what an opportunity to learn.

I have spent 50+ years as an avid sky watcher and the last 15 years buying relatively expensive equipment and spending endless nights looking through telescopes & binocs and outside of the rare comet or really good meteor shower there has not been many exceptional things to see. Admittedly the Messier index has sights to behold and the Lunar Top 100 is eye opening and no one can deny eclipses and super moons are cool but a visible disturbance on the moon. That's a "Holy *BLEEP*" if I've ever seen one. I'm just happy the disturbance was up there and not down here if you know what I'm saying. This one makes up for lost time and justifies to some extent the amount of money spent but Boy Howdy I'm glad this ain't a Pay Per View.

As far fetched as this may sound I am holding out that this was not necessarily an impact event and will for the time respectfully qualify it only as a "disturbance" pending further review.

Anyways still looking for answers but if this were an impact event I believe something that big someone should have known about and made folks aware of.

Has anyone heard anything on the news anywhere about this????

Edited by Trblmkr (07/31/13 06:29 AM)


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Trblmkr
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5999592 - 07/31/13 06:40 AM Attachment (19 downloads)

Here is a pretty decent JPL/NASA Shot of the Maginus Crater (as its called). There a many easily identifiable anomalies in this picture that are probably not associated with the geology, Oops sorry didn't mean to stir the (conspiracy) pot.

Edited by Trblmkr (07/31/13 09:34 AM)


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brianb11213
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #5999643 - 07/31/13 07:59 AM

Quote:

Here is on pretty decent JPL/NASA Shot of the Area.



Yes but it's lacking sufficient resolution to show anything ... from the size of the plume in your images I'd expect any impact crater to be under 100 metres in diameter ... what is needed is a pair of "before" and "after" images taken under reasonably similar lighting which have resolution down to 5 to 10 metres or smaller ... Lunar Reconnaisance Orbiter or similar, not ground based images which have very little chance of resolving detail at the 100 metre level.


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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #5999646 - 07/31/13 08:04 AM

Quote:



I have spent 50+ years as an avid sky watcher and the last 15 years buying relatively expensive equipment




And Im greatly impressed with your high resolution image, 10" dob and Sky pic home brew rig. What you really ought to do is post this image and explanation in the solar system imaging forum where the pros can help you with your interpretation. Now I don't know if they have spent equal amounts of money over many years to attain what you have but they do have a lot of experience and could help here.

Pete


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Asbytec
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: brianb11213]
      #5999789 - 07/31/13 10:19 AM

Quote:

Yes but it's lacking sufficient resolution to show anything ... from the size of the plume in your images I'd expect any impact crater to be under 100 metres in diameter ... what is needed is a pair of "before" and "after" images taken under reasonably similar lighting...




And it's a pre event image, it won't show anything. A current image is what's needed. I suspect it will be a small impact, as well, but how small? Before and after under similar lighting might show a fresh ejecta blanket, if indeed, an event occurred. Also, if we know the time between the exposures we might be able to calculate whether the plume settled according to the laws of gravity. That would be a bit of proof of an event. Basically, we need a new crater or other new feature or an image of fresh ejecta.


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Trblmkr
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5999807 - 07/31/13 10:28 AM Attachment (16 downloads)

QUOTE; "And Im greatly impressed with your high resolution image, 10" dob and Sky pic home brew rig. What you really ought to do is post this image and explanation in the solar system imaging forum where the pros can help you with your interpretation. Now I don't know if they have spent equal amounts of money over many years to attain what you have but they do have a lot of experience and could help here".

Personally I'm more impressed with the Tele-vue optics since the Steady Pics Mounts does not easily allow the camera to line up perpendicular to the face of the lens causing distortion and off center shots, let alone that its at least 3 inches short when using a 4x Barlow.
As far as money invested it is relative to your priorities.
I would have to assume your professional astronomer friends are better equipped than casual amateur astronomers.

Then again if I new ahead of time I would be shooting a Lunar event I might have opted for a closer in view like the one below taken just minutes before the event.

Edited by Trblmkr (07/31/13 10:37 AM)


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Trblmkr
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #6000411 - 07/31/13 06:36 PM Attachment (25 downloads)

The attached pic is a 250% zoom of the one included earlier with a minor tonal adjustment. Incredible as it may be this close in seems to show a rather large elevated pipe, the smaller white pipes attached to the base provides perspective of height. Even the slight shadow is correct. Is this where Maginus A is suppose to be.
Is this the smoking Chernobyl or just the lunar lay down area for the Irrigation System?? Inquiring minds want to know.
Oh and by the way do they have a permit for that?


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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #6000667 - 07/31/13 10:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm a little surprised at the hostility I'm seeing here.
If this is a hoax, then ha ha, well done.

Otherwise, let's consider what if it's a real event. Possibly the aftermath of an impact? A close look at high-res before and after shots might be instructive. Also, has anyone searched the web; did anyone else see this?




Thank You Thank You Very Much.
I can't even begin to consider how or why anyone would even try to make this up. It is what it is.




Now, this may not be a hoax.

But why would anyone want to create a moon hoax?

THE GREAT MOON HOAX

Because it's good sport!

So, one really doesn't need a reason beyond that.

Which is why it's good, and right, and entirely appropriate, to be politely skeptical.

"Doubting" Thomas


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brianb11213
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: pdxmoon]
      #6001019 - 08/01/13 05:20 AM

Quote:

But why would anyone want to create a moon hoax?

THE GREAT MOON HOAX

Because it's good sport!

So, one really doesn't need a reason beyond that.



Except that the "Great Moon Hoax" was perpetrated by a non observer. The difference here is that an observer appears to have recorded something which is very unusual in his experience and which he believes may have been caused by "high energy activity".

Quote:

Which is why it's good, and right, and entirely appropriate, to be politely skeptical.



I agree that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I do not believe that the "high energy activity event" recorded was a real lunar phenomenon for the reasons I've stated above, but I don't believe that the report is anything other than a genuine record either. I can offer an alternative explanation (light reflection in the scope) but have no evidence to prove or disprove my hypothesis. An impact event is a real possibility but would need proof, and that proof should be available.


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pdxmoon
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: brianb11213]
      #6001530 - 08/01/13 03:32 PM

I am not suggesting that this is or is not a hoax. The OP asked why anyone would want to fake these photos. I am pointing out the naiveté of that question.

One needs no reason to hoax. One can do so for the sheer mischief of it--observer or non observer.


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Trblmkr
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: pdxmoon]
      #6002150 - 08/01/13 09:12 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I

why would anyone want to create a moon hoax?

THE GREAT MOON HOAX

Because it's good sport!

So, one really doesn't need a reason beyond that.

Which is why it's good, and right, and entirely appropriate, to be politely skeptical.

"Doubting" Thomas




You'll get no argument out of me. My dear old Dad always said "Don't Believe Anything That You Hear and Only Half of What You See! In this techno culture It is hard to believe anything that you see so I completely understand any and all skepticism.
As far as a hoax,I can appreciate a joke and have a great since of humor but a hoax based on a subject like this on a public forum with the intent to deceive would seem to be flat out fraudulent and I see no humor in that.

I am appreciative of the acknowledgement the posted pictures are authentic because they truly are. As far as it being a lens reflection or other aberration, I can only say of the many thousands of telescopic and night pictures I have taken its never happened once let alone 10 times. As well a lens flare or reflection would not account for the movement of the rocks or what ever that is on the 2nd thru 10th frames.

I would like nothing more than to believe this was an impact event, that would make this pretty straight forward but of the research I have done it is not adding up to that. In effect (in my opinion) it appears artificial. Similar to a high volume effluent from a large pump or sluice gate. I base this on my experience and familiarity with large water systems used in Power Generation. Hydroelectric dams produce a similar discharge appearance when bypass gates are open. Though I am not suggesting it has anything to do with a dam only that it looks mechanically produced.

I urge everyone to look closely at the last pic I posted. Hit Cntrl + to zoom in to observe the details that were pointed out in that post.

The research continues... Thanks for your interest in this unusual event.

Edited by Trblmkr (08/01/13 09:24 PM)


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steveward53
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #6002450 - 08/02/13 01:20 AM

Would love to see the thousands of photos you've shot over the last few decades , they must be a fascinating resource spanning the pre-digital era thru to present day,

Perhaps you could post a selection or a link to your gallery/website , such a wealth of experience should be shared around surely , that's why we're here for the most part after all .


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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #6002745 - 08/02/13 08:18 AM

Quote:

The research continues... Thanks for your interest in this unusual event.




I'd still urge you to report your findings to a higher level research facility.


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Trblmkr
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6004078 - 08/02/13 10:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The research continues... Thanks for your interest in this unusual event.




I'd still urge you to report your findings to a higher level research facility.




I am working on getting this into an expert group.


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Asbytec
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #6004089 - 08/02/13 10:48 PM



I reported an Ivory Billed Woodpecker sighting made in 1975 to Cornell University. Turns out, they have been recently discovered and are not extinct.


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Trblmkr
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: steveward53]
      #6004130 - 08/02/13 11:37 PM

Quote:

Would love to see the thousands of photos you've shot over the last few decades , they must be a fascinating resource spanning the pre-digital era thru to present day,

Perhaps you could post a selection or a link to your gallery/website , such a wealth of experience should be shared around surely , that's why we're here for the most part after all .




I don't have a website or generally post pictures for the sake of posting pictures as I suspect most folks don't. I believe there is little value in it. However posting a picture of a particular subject that poses a question or illustrates a point, it may be appropriate to post in a subject specific forum such as this.

I believe your comment of "a desire to see thousands of photos spanning the last few decades" is a derogatory comment in nature and would ask that you refrain from posting such comments as it has no bearing on the subject at hand. Your positive input to the subject matter is always welcome.

Thanks


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Trblmkr
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6004133 - 08/02/13 11:43 PM

Quote:



I reported an Ivory Billed Woodpecker sighting made in 1975 to Cornell University. Turns out, they have been recently discovered and are not extinct.




And that is Totally Cool in fact Way Cool!!!!!!!!!!!!


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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #6004180 - 08/03/13 12:24 AM

Mark, fifty years as an "amature" is a lot of imaging. Maybe not thousands but surely you have some others you'd like to post. I found his post encouraging actually of your skills.

Pete


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Trblmkr
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6004211 - 08/03/13 12:49 AM

Quote:

Mark, fifty years as an "amature" is a lot of imaging. Maybe not thousands but surely you have some others you'd like to post. I found his post encouraging actually of your skills.

Pete




For the purpose of what as it applies to the subject at hand??

Also I claimed to be an Avid Sky Watcher for 50 Years. For the last 15 I have attempted to equip myself for better viewing.

All of this emphasis on the person rather than the event is curious. What purpose does your interest in the the person serve in understanding what actually occurred?


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Rick Woods
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #6004271 - 08/03/13 02:00 AM

Mark,
Don't get defensive. You've posted a pretty intriguing observation here; maybe people just want to see what other interesting things you may have imaged.
I may be wrong; but I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt until they make their meaning clear one way or the other.

But, I'm curious if anyone else picked this up. Any response from ALPO or the BAA? They always have people watching the Moon.


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frank5817
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #6005775 - 08/04/13 02:31 AM Attachment (30 downloads)

Petavius first image,
Imaged captured several years ago with a hand held camera at the eyepiece of a 10" f/5.7 dob scope.
Second image, same image as first after treatment with the smudge tool using Gimp2.6.

Frank


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frank5817
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: frank5817]
      #6005777 - 08/04/13 02:31 AM Attachment (30 downloads)

Second image

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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: frank5817]
      #6005946 - 08/04/13 08:16 AM

Frank,

Sorry that's no smudge tool effect. You too have recorded a high energy event . The energy infact required to click a mouse and draw it across an image. Lol very well done my friend.

Pete


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sc285
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6006008 - 08/04/13 10:45 AM

I strongly suggest that you send your observations to:
Dr. Anthony Cook – atc@aber.ac.uk
David O. Darling - DOD121252@aol.com
They are both deeply involved with lunar transient phenomena.
They can analyze the photos and put out an alert to their network of observers to see if there have been any other reports or observations of the same event. They maintain a database of LTP and can check to see if there has ever been any other types of events for this particular crater.

Rob


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Asbytec
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6006021 - 08/04/13 10:54 AM

Frank, let's see the sequence. Not even close. You need more work on your hoaxing skills.

You know, a guy sent me a pic of some light orbs floating around a grave yard. They were supposed to be proof of some spirits dancing about. Having some experience with DSO image processing and some early 90's software, I was able to show those orbs were cut and pasted into the image. He could have waited until the lightening bugs came out. Processing those out of focus orbs would have been more difficult.


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Rick Woods
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6006176 - 08/04/13 02:37 PM

Let me add that the fact that you have all the tools available to you to be a mass murderer, doesn't mean you are one. (Just to be sure I'm not being obtuse, the fact that a picture can be faked doesn't mean it has been faked.) I see no reason not to accept the observation as presented, in the absence of some reason to doubt it. We're not talking national security here.

Norme,
Slight digression: those "orbs" you spoke of; I've just recently heard of that, in the form of a very trusted acquaintence who took a picture (of her dog) in her back yard at night, and took a second one maybe a second later. The first was clear, but the second was full of "orbs". She was very mystified about this, as am I. I saw the pictures, still in her camera.
I'm absolutely positive she wasn't trying to fake anything. Personally, I'm pretty sure it's just some sort of optical effect with a perfectly ordinary explanation.
Does anyone know what that might be?


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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #6006548 - 08/04/13 08:08 PM

The orbs are a common digital camera effect some produce others don't. I've always believed it was defocused static charges or some such .

Pete


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Asbytec
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6006699 - 08/04/13 09:49 PM

Rick, not to stray too far, but orbs do show in photos un-faked. Pete may be onto something, they are probably some optical affect. I'm sure they are not spirits or souls. But the ones I evaluated had a darker background than the scene. There was a clear contrast differential. The pixels surrounding the orb were dark and the square shape of that background was curious.

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brianb11213
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #6007076 - 08/05/13 05:52 AM

Quote:

Slight digression: those "orbs" you spoke of; I've just recently heard of that, in the form of a very trusted acquaintence who took a picture (of her dog) in her back yard at night, and took a second one maybe a second later. The first was clear, but the second was full of "orbs". She was very mystified about this, as am I. I saw the pictures, still in her camera.
I'm absolutely positive she wasn't trying to fake anything. Personally, I'm pretty sure it's just some sort of optical effect with a perfectly ordinary explanation.
Does anyone know what that might be?



There is a fairly well known issue which affects mostly compact cameras with built in flash ... if there is dust or raindrops in the air, or something similar like a cloud of midges, the flash illuminates these & they appear as bright spots ... with the huge depth of field of the short focus small aperture lenses fitted to digital compacts, these can appear fairly bright & sharp.

The in-camera sharpening automatically applied by consumer grade cameras robs energy from the dark side of contrast gradients transferring it to the bright side, causing the dark halo which is sometimes apparent.

The atmospheric contamination causing these "orbs" can be transient so the orbs can be apparent in some frames but not in others, without any change being made to the camera settings or lighting conditions.


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Trblmkr
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: sc285]
      #6008114 - 08/05/13 06:24 PM

Quote:

I strongly suggest that you send your observations to:
Dr. Anthony Cook – atc@aber.ac.uk
David O. Darling - DOD121252@aol.com
They are both deeply involved with lunar transient phenomena.
They can analyze the photos and put out an alert to their network of observers to see if there have been any other reports or observations of the same event. They maintain a database of LTP and can check to see if there has ever been any other types of events for this particular crater.

Rob




DONE
Thanks


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Trblmkr
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #6008230 - 08/05/13 07:50 PM

Quote:

Mark,
Don't get defensive. You've posted a pretty intriguing observation here; maybe people just want to see what other interesting things you may have imaged.
I may be wrong; but I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt until they make their meaning clear one way or the other.

But, I'm curious if anyone else picked this up. Any response from ALPO or the BAA? They always have people watching the Moon.




Didn't mean to sound defensive. Its probably the result of the (excessive) time spent on the analysis of this event as it has been my central focus for sometime now.

I to am wondering about similar events, someone must know something or is this Above Top Secret...


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ed_turco
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #6011562 - 08/07/13 01:59 PM

I've seen comments pro and con. I've also seen people acting like kids. When in doubt, it is a better idea to keep quiet and wait for the experts mentioned. It is claimed that they have been told of this and I'd love to hear what they might like to say.

ed_turco


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Trblmkr
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: ed_turco]
      #6014967 - 08/09/13 12:57 AM Attachment (18 downloads)

As another point of reference here is a shot of Maginus the day before. Also includes the surrounding area as well, lots of interesting geometry. Sorry about the blur, hopefully August will bring a better shot..

Edited by Trblmkr (08/09/13 01:47 AM)


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Trblmkr
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #6015021 - 08/09/13 01:38 AM Attachment (17 downloads)

Expanded shot south with some very interesting Features. I call it South Park. Wish I could post the the original 4 meg file. The chaff on the features does seem to be there and not a digital artifact. Hard to believe this is all geologically formed. Just Sayin...

Edited by Trblmkr (08/09/13 02:10 AM)


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Asbytec
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #6015163 - 08/09/13 06:11 AM

Trouble, still having trouble identifying the features you mention.

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Trblmkr
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6016156 - 08/09/13 04:11 PM

Its a challenge though not impossible for me to believe all of the dozens if not hundreds of the features present, which appear very diverse in shape, color and most likely chemical composition were all formed and randomly deposited in their current states and orientation/positions in this particular location. I can only qualify this by a relative comparison to geologic formations of known processes. The lunar surface being largely chemically un-sampled likely still holds many secrets of its true origins and the features depicted.

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Roberto_sp
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A *DELETED* new [Re: pdxmoon]
      #6016266 - 08/09/13 05:37 PM

Post deleted by Roberto_sp

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GlennLeDrew
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Roberto_sp]
      #6016324 - 08/09/13 06:19 PM

I've looked at the images posted, and the animated YouTube sequence, and must admit to some confusion about what I'm supposed to be seeing. My first impression was that of a ghost-like reflection, which the optical train used (afocal through an eyepiece) can certainly introduce.

It was requested/suggested a couple of times in this thread for the interval between frames to be provided. That was my first question, too. (At the very least, the interval between first and last frames is required.) In conjunction with an estimate of the areal extent, one can work out a velocity, and provide some constraints on altitude if the 'plume' is ejecta.

But such data have not been forthcoming. Lack of proper documentation? If so, the value of the observation is lessened.

The images themselves evince *very* significant variation due to atmospheric seeing. This alone has the potential to introduce strange artifacts. Indeed, such is the frame-to-frame difference that one could be forgiven for suspecting that smudging has been performed.

If the experts have the required timing data, it will be interesting to read their conclusions...


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Trblmkr
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Roberto_sp]
      #6017823 - 08/10/13 03:34 PM

Recycled metal is getting a good price these days.

Time for for a Field Trip


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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #6018382 - 08/10/13 11:54 PM

That about said it all.


P.


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Trblmkr
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6018481 - 08/11/13 02:05 AM

Quote:

That about said it all.


P.



Though far from being on a level playing field, big bucks are being spent on ocean salvage around the world. Why would that not be a real prospect?


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steveward53
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #6018497 - 08/11/13 02:44 AM

I find it increasingly bizarre that this rubbish has not been kicked back under the bridge from whence it came ... ?

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Trblmkr
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: steveward53]
      #6018529 - 08/11/13 04:13 AM

Everyone should be environmentally sensitive.

Junk is junk no matter where it is.

If there is an objection to the assumption the pictured item(s) is in fact a refined material worth recovering, that would be a matter of interpretation which, is generally based upon knowledge, experience and the ability to discern objects that are of potential value.

If your opinion is opposed to the stated then so be it, no offense is taken, however any opinions expressed in this forum is just that an opinion.

Either side taken of this subject is irrelevant to the facts since neither side can be proven. It is presented here for discussion purposes and is considered necessary fodder for conversation.

I look forward to a meaningful civil dialogue of this subject in a designated forum.

Thanks for your input!


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Roberto_sp
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A *DELETED* new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #6018683 - 08/11/13 09:27 AM

Post deleted by Roberto_sp

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steveward53
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Roberto_sp]
      #6018976 - 08/11/13 12:42 PM

Someone lock this nonsense please ...

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Roberto_sp
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A *DELETED* new [Re: steveward53]
      #6019416 - 08/11/13 05:48 PM

Post deleted by Roberto_sp

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GlennLeDrew
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Roberto_sp]
      #6019433 - 08/11/13 06:02 PM

Where's the OP? Did he submit his images to anyone considered to have some expertise in this area? Any follow-up to report?

One tick against the whole thing is jumping the gun and assuming/ascribing to the ambiguous data a "high energy" event, and interpreting the presence of rock and dust debris. Bad form! Anyone with a passing familiarity with the scientific method does not do this.

But far worse? Failing to provide an interval in time for the event. This seriously impairs the data's usefulness. If data it be.


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THEPLOUGH
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #6019563 - 08/11/13 07:28 PM

Enough is enough... This thread has served its' purpose time for the lock...

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THEPLOUGH
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: THEPLOUGH]
      #6021406 - 08/12/13 06:48 PM

Well at the request of the OP, I am going to give this one more shot... Be nice...

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steveward53
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: THEPLOUGH]
      #6021416 - 08/12/13 06:54 PM

Your troll , you entertain him .

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GlennLeDrew
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: steveward53]
      #6022032 - 08/13/13 12:38 AM

I sincerely want to have some idea of the duration of the event. This will permit at least a rough calculation of velocity, which can be compared to characteristic or expected ejection velocities and dispersal times. If this is not not known, it should be stated.

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Trblmkr
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #6022122 - 08/13/13 02:17 AM

Quote:

I sincerely want to have some idea of the duration of the event. This will permit at least a rough calculation of velocity, which can be compared to characteristic or expected ejection velocities and dispersal times. If this is not not known, it should be stated.




Sorry about the delay I did actually post that information a few days a go but something happened to it. Anyway here it is again;

The camera was set for a 10 shot burst slow setting which equates to 2 images per second for an ET of 5 seconds total. The exposure time was 1/25 sec, but It can not be stated what the entire duration of the event was. The images leading up to the ones provided were shot on a different setting and while there is variations in the series it is not of the same magnitude as those posted, which leads me to believe the first image I have is probably not at the beginning but near the beginning of the event. I have at least 2 additional images (1 second) showing the continuation of the event as well as several other series showing a procession of something that is difficult to describe.
I did not want to post that information until a cause or opinion was rendered by the professionals who are supporting the review.

In due time I plan to post some of the rest of the images for public review.

Until then any information you may be able to develop from the data provided may help to understand what the physics were that resulted in this effect.

JUST THINKING OUT LOUD HERE;
The primary port of the discharge (Maginus A??) has been measured at 13kM however there appears to be multiple ports particularly in frame 2. As well the density of the material traveling from the discharge area would have to be assumed. The distance any material actually traveled is also unknown but Maginus proper is measured at ~100 miles long depending on whose data is used. Gravitational constant is ~ 1/6 earth, not sure what the absolute pressure is, but suspect it greater than 0 psia.

Just considering the scale of the affect of covering ~50,000 sq mi would seem to indicate there was substantial energy involved.
Consider for a moment; To fill a single pipe that is 9 miles across with enough pressure to blow even vapor/dust 50 miles in 5 seconds or less is considerable even at 0 psia and 1/6 gc. Add in there appears to be solid material presumed be to rocks or surface debris that is also being moved.

I don't know if there is a threshold for scientifically defining something as a "high energy" as it is a generic statement. My definitions of high energy means only that it appeared greater than what would likely be produced by the local environment, IE even a huge rock slide or cave in would not likely produce the same affect as what was captured, though it to has considerable energy related to it.
Another aspect and more inline with an engineering analysis, If it were an intentional mechanical process it would definitely be high energy consumption at least by earth standards to produce an effect like that observed. (You'll have to pardon my engineering background)
Anyways you know what you're doing.
If there is anything else I can assist with let me know.
Thanks for your patients.

Thanks
Mark

Edited by Trblmkr (08/13/13 02:55 AM)


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Trblmkr]
      #6022201 - 08/13/13 04:41 AM

We can apply some first order constraints.

First, the explosive nature of an impact results in a circular expansion as viewed perpendicular to the plane of the surface. It cannot intrinsically be strongly and preferentially skewed in one direction. Even our view angle, where the lunar surface is reasonably well tilted with respect to the line of sight, will not result in a *very* significant asymmetry. The ejecta will present as essentially an elliptical pattern, not too far offset from the point of impact in the direction toward nearest point on the lunar limb.

It is thought that the *majority* of impact debris leaves the crater at less than escape velocity, which on the Moon is 2.4 km/s. Over a period of 5 seconds, the distance traveled is then less than 12 km, for a *maximum* diameter of 24 km. This is 1/8 the diameter of 194 km diameter Maginus.

How does this compare to the image scale of the images, meaning the number of pixels/km? And what is the resolution limit imposed by the apparently significant degree of atmospheric seeing? And does the pattern in the image series show expansion from a point, with little or no net motion across the surface beyond that expected due to our perspective on a tilted, symmetrical, ballistic ejecta pattern.

Some small fraction of ejecta, originating from the impactor itself and the surface in pretty much the immediate vicinity, does exceed escape velocity. If we assume, say, 3 times the escape velocity, the distance traveled in 5 seconds is 36 km, for a diameter of about 72 km, or about 1/4 the crater's 194 km diameter. This is certainly large enough to be resolved unambiguously here. But...

... How well should such ejecta be seen against the sunlit surface? The surface is a 'solid' layer of material, and so the surface brightness, considering the sun's angle, is maximal. The ejecta at any fair distance from the impact is expected to have an optical depth of less than unity. In other words, the projected surface density is lower than the surface, where we see through gaps right down to the surface. Considering for simplicity that the debris albedo is similar to that of the underlying surface, the contribution to scene surface brightness cannot be significant, meaning contrast is quite low.

One might ask about increased debris brightness due to being heated to incandescence. While I don't know about duration until cooling to below red hot, for smaller bits it's probably fairly quick. But again, and in any event, the projected surface density (optical depth) would have to be significant in order to rival the underlying sunlit surface's brightness. And so at any kind of distance from the impact, the contrast should be low.

[The following is a very crude (but hopefully) order of magnitude guess of my own. It could well be far in error.]

In order to generate ejecta which can stand out against a sunlit surface, the volume of material ejected must certainly be very considerable, to the point that the projected surface density might well have to approach unity. This suggests a volume equal to the mean diameter of the bits of debris multiplied by the areal extent. If we assume a mean size of 1mm, and a visible areal extent (against the sunlit surface) whose diameter is 24 km, the volume of the material is some 450,000 cubic meters, or a hemispherical crater 120 meters across. (The real crater, of depth less than the horizontal radius, would be wider.)

This is probably a gross underestimate, for our first order calculation was based on the projected surface density of unity at 12 km radius and assuming a constant density all the way back to the impact site. But we must expect density to fall off exponentially with radius, bearing in mind an *approximately* hemispherical distribution. And so the volume of material excavated could/should be greater than calculated above.

Again, the preceding is a *most crude* guess of my own; please take it as such! I am not a geologist, crater expert or explosives handler.


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David Knisely
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #6022234 - 08/13/13 05:32 AM

This is all very interesting, but it does not change the question as to whether the images represent an event on the moon or not. There are simply too many variables to come to a firm conclusion that this was a lunar surface event and not something like a mere seeing variation or momentary optical effect induced by something in the optics sending scattered light to the camera. In a few days, Maginus will be in sunlight again. Then, we might know a little more, although for me, I won't be at all surprised if it looks exactly as it has for the past few million years. Clear skies to you.

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star dropModerator
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: David Knisely]
      #6022620 - 08/13/13 10:48 AM

There also remains the possibility that an impact from a predominantly ice object occurred. Would that not reduce the size of an impact scar and produce a vapor cloud with minimal amounts of surface material?

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Asbytec
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: star drop]
      #6022785 - 08/13/13 12:23 PM

Now, the discussion is back to interesting.

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David Knisely
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: star drop]
      #6023123 - 08/13/13 02:39 PM

Quote:

There also remains the possibility that an impact from a predominantly ice object occurred. Would that not reduce the size of an impact scar and produce a vapor cloud with minimal amounts of surface material?




At the extreme speeds with which celestial objects move relative to each other, the impact effects would not be all that much different between an icy object and one which was not icy but of similar mass. The kinetic energy of a moving object is (1/2)m*v**2, which is dominated by the velocity term. A plume produced by an impact which was large enough to cover much of Maginus would produce a bright flash at the point of impact as well as pretty good sized crater, whether the object was ice or rock. It would also leave a bright ejecta blanket on the surface that would be easily noticeable. In any case, we are still "getting the cart before the horse" here. There is little (if any) firm indication from these images that anything actually happened on the lunar surface. It is more likely that the apparent diffuse brightening shown in the images was due to something a *lot* closer to the surface of the Earth than the surface of the moon. Again, in a couple of days or so, Maginus will be in sunlight once again, so if it looks the same as it always has, nothing probably happened. Clear skies to you.


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Rick Woods
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: David Knisely]
      #6023407 - 08/13/13 04:33 PM

Quote:

Again, in a couple of days or so, Maginus will be in sunlight once again, so if it looks the same as it always has, nothing probably happened.




Maybe, maybe not. Depending on the nature of the event, the traces of it happening could have entirely disappeared, or at least be too minute for detection from Earth.

Trblmkr, I have no problem with the use of the term "high energy"; if something really did happen to obscure that large an area of the Moon, there was certainly some energy involved somewhere!


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David Knisely
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #6023813 - 08/13/13 07:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Again, in a couple of days or so, Maginus will be in sunlight once again, so if it looks the same as it always has, nothing probably happened.




Maybe, maybe not. Depending on the nature of the event, the traces of it happening could have entirely disappeared, or at least be too minute for detection from Earth.

Trblmkr, I have no problem with the use of the term "high energy"; if something really did happen to obscure that large an area of the Moon, there was certainly some energy involved somewhere!




Again, that is assuming the event was a real one, which may not really be a valid assumption. There are simply way too many things that it could have been caused by here on Earth to make that much of a leap. If he had more data showing before and after (minutes, not seconds), and if the image quality was considerably higher, then I might be more willing to consider a lunar event interpretation. However, the image is poor in resolution, the sequence is brief, it was taken afocally through more optics than most imagers would use for the task, potentially processed in an unknown way, and the area in question has surface features and albedeos consistent with a slight brightening on the floor of the crater that was already in-place. Seeing variations can easily cause this sort of thing to happen by blurring and distorting some of the finer brighter surface detail to make it look like this alleged "plume" like brightening. Indeed, the central mountain group area on the floor of Maginus along with the bright asymmetrical ejecta blanket from the small (5 km diam.) crater centered 23 km to the southeast of the center of Maginus A can contribute to that effect if the seeing gets bad locally (this is starting to remind me of the famous but silly "Curtis Cross" of the 1960's). Indeed, in the first frame of the OP's sequence, the brightest portion of the "plume" seems centered directly on that little 5 km crater. I for one am still not completely convinced that the images firmly can be interpreted as something on or near the surface of the moon, and to use the words "high energy activity" is somewhat premature to say the least. Let's see what we see when the sun comes up on Maginus tomorrow night and Thursday. Clear skies to you.


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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: pdxmoon]
      #6024181 - 08/13/13 11:19 PM

Some of You guys are overlooking this :

"The plume is moving around like a blown hose. "

An utterly impossible outcome on the moon.


"Seems like a few rocks being tossed as well. "

Sure - if the rocks are a mile across .

And then the staggering part: following this *event* no one in all of earth snapped a pic - at the time of it, shortly after, an hour later, 4 hours later - a day later - where clearly the ejecta would've been there in all its glory. The luck of the draw sadly was not one astronomer on earth shot a follow up .


A revisit a month later will show no more than anyone's imaged the following 24 hours where nothing at all was evident to snyone at any level. The fact that this was a series of lousy low res photos rather than a a video run, stacked and processed is also a red flag. Anyone claiming fifty years of experience with brag rights to purchasing high end equipment doesn't shoot junk like this. A person who knows nothing about imaging with little experience at all would do the photo burst technique since its a simple photoshop touch up affair with none of the bother of editing movie stills.

Can someone show me the rocks that were blown hither and yon in all if this?

Also - what professionals in the field have reviewed this account. Its been long enough for a turn around. Who received this and what did the pros say? If this person even had a gram of belief this was a real event it would've gone out to the pros long ago.




Pete

Edited by azure1961p (08/13/13 11:28 PM)


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6024299 - 08/14/13 12:39 AM

I'm *very*sceptical, but prefer to consider how the data--such as it is--conforms to or departs from expectation. In the process, we all learn a bit more; at least I have so far.

What would be good to have clarified... Was this event noted as it happened, or instead after reviewing the images. If the former, anyone would naturally keep collecting data for a considerable time afterward, provided the Moon was sufficiently well placed in the sky, of course.

If there was an impact event, any ejecta would be best seen at full Moon.


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pdxmoon
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6025322 - 08/14/13 02:54 PM

I'm with Pete.

And so, I'm

...outta here.


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Starhunter249
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: pdxmoon]
      #6026144 - 08/14/13 10:57 PM

I been reading this thread since it posted. Tonight, inspired by the controversy, I took a look at Maginus. It was mostly out of the shadow. Nothing seemed different from comparing archived photos to tonight's views. Mindful that Earth's atmosphere and the resolution limits of my telescope probably wont reveal a new crater or debris trails.

I am in camp that this is a real event and it will take a seasoned astronomer with good photography equipment to detect the source of this anomaly. My theory is that it was an impact in the wall of the crater. The dust and rock were ejected in a somewhat horizontal motion parallel with the moon's surface in the opposite direction of the object's motion. Since there is no atmosphere on the moon, dust and rock fall back to surface relatively quickly like nothing ever happened. The crater from what I read is 192 km in diameter and 4.3 km deep. Its possible the depth and size of crater contained most of the material kicked up in the crater wall impact.

Impact events on jupiter and on our moon are starting to nudge me into getting video recording equipment for my telescope.


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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Starhunter249]
      #6026280 - 08/15/13 12:08 AM

Well you are profoundly wrong. Since there is no atmosphere the dust/debris does not fall back down as if nothing ever happened. In fact its all about what has happened in that the gravity which is 80% weaker than our own couples with no wind resistance would have the ejecta travel vast distances and with great symmetry as well. More over no impact with mile size *rocks* being blown from the area would need a a powerful instrument with expert attention as a follow up confirmation. It'd be glaringly obvious with any scope looking at that crater. There is no high ground of evidence of anything that may have occurred on the moon. There is no "camp" . Its not my opinion its the fact that there is no fact at all to support any notion of a lunar phenomenon here.

Pete


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Asbytec
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #6026303 - 08/15/13 12:24 AM

Quote:

I'm *very*sceptical, but prefer to consider how the data--such as it is--conforms to or departs from expectation. In the process, we all learn a bit more; at least I have so far.

If there was an impact event, any ejecta would be best seen at full Moon.




I'm with Glenn, so

Lunar impact events do occur. Question is, does the sequence provided indicate one. I'd love to see hi res before and after images.

I suspect a grazing impact could have produce asymmetrical ejecta. Being "wind blown" is not possible, sure, but it could simply be an illusion as shadows cast change over time - with height of the ejecta over short intervals.


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David Knisely
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Starhunter249]
      #6026312 - 08/15/13 12:33 AM

I also looked at Maginius tonight. It looks the same as it has always looked, although it did give me a chance to try out my friend's 3-6mm Nagler zoom eyepiece (a keeper BTW). Based on what I saw (or more importantly, what I didn't see) as well as the factors I have mentioned before, I remain somewhat unconvinced that anything happened there recently. Clear skies to you.

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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: David Knisely]
      #6026586 - 08/15/13 07:16 AM

Glad the Nagler zoom is a success David. I wrestle over the idea from time to time - I love the 3mm reach it can provide and Ive read nothing but great reviews of it. I then think just about getting a 3mm ortho from Siebert. Of course then I lose out on the 3.5mm ability and everything else inbetween.

Pete


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Starhunter249
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6026656 - 08/15/13 08:31 AM

Pete, there are many possibilities. Its a hoax, a trick of light and shadow, issues with the equipment used, or could be a real event. Many are skeptics, some believe it could be real, and some are no way in hell this is real. This is what I mean by camps. I am in the camp that it could be a real event and needs to be looked into.

No atmosphere means stuff is going to fly farther, no air resistance, but its not going to stay up forever either. On earth with our atmosphere, air resistance and wind can cause the dust and debris to linger above the surface a lot longer. Feathers and hammers fall down at the same rate with no atmosphere. Same with moon dust and boulders.

If this is a real event, consider the possibility of the impact blowing up more dust than rock. There might not be much change to the landscape that is detectable for earth based amateur telescopes. Professionals and the Lunar Recon Orbiter would settle the controversy.

Man has looked upon the moon since the dawn of our existence but only since the first time Galileo pointed his telescope to the moon did we begin to truly explore it. After 400 years of studying the moon with instruments and astronauts, i think its very premature to think we know nearly everything about the moon and the nature of impacts.


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brianb11213
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Starhunter249]
      #6026868 - 08/15/13 10:40 AM

Quote:

If this is a real event, consider the possibility of the impact blowing up more dust than rock.



That's a certainty not merely a possibility.

Quote:

There might not be much change to the landscape that is detectable for earth based amateur telescopes. Professionals and the Lunar Recon Orbiter would settle the controversy.



Excavated material will tend to be lighter & if material is thrown out in this way, especially dust, it will surely show up as a fresh lunar ray under high sunlight, even if the impact crater is too small to be readily visible. In fact the material thrown out must have been lighter than the general lunar surface for it to be visible in the original images, if an impact event is what has been captured.

I remain deeply skeptical.


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Dean Norris
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: brianb11213]
      #6027260 - 08/15/13 01:59 PM

I was able to observe the Moon last night under marginal seeing conditions. I was only able to use 171x which at this magnification, Maginus had no new or altered features from what I could tell. I examined the entire basin as well as focusing on the Maginus A area. I was using the 21st Atlas of the Moon which has an excellent image of this walled basin as a reference. I will continue to look every night it's clear looking for any signs through the full moon phase. Whatever happens I appreciate the opportunity to explore this issue with the people on this forum.

Dean


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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: brianb11213]
      #6027269 - 08/15/13 02:04 PM

Starhunter,

You are consistently wrong on all contentions. You ought to do a little reading. Your understandings of lunar cause and affect are not accurate and as a result you are enshrouding this in mystery that doesn't apply. Your expounding on man and science is lofty but tethered to misinformation.

Pete


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Rick Woods
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6027640 - 08/15/13 05:01 PM

Pete, would you elaborate? I'm not seeing where Starhunter is in error.
You seem to be in an awful rush to discredit this observation. Do you know something you're not telling?
Personally, I'm agnostic about it. I have no reason to doubt the integrity of the OP; then again, there are plenty of things it could be that don't entail a hoax (equipment issues, etc). I'll remain agnostic until further evidence appears one way or the other.


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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #6027912 - 08/15/13 07:48 PM

Rick!!!

When some one tells you they saw rocks blown away from gas and dust jetting out like a blown hose - its not possible. Its been a month and there hasn't been a single shred of supporting evidence and no specialists have noted any such thing. Nor anyone on earth in the ensuing days when such a rock blasting event would have been freshly evident. See Brianbs post. From execution to presentation this has been one long joke.

You could say Trouble has been made.

Lol - I'm still looking for the rocks!


Any things possible. This however - when its all added up together - is extraordinarily improbable. Its not the specific isolated details but the presentation as a whole.




Pete

Edited by azure1961p (08/15/13 08:51 PM)


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Rick Woods
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6028256 - 08/15/13 11:28 PM

Well, maybe. I guess we'll see. I did notice that the OP has disappeared from the discussion.

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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #6028284 - 08/15/13 11:46 PM

Hey what did you think of David Grays mars drawing in the apodizer thread? Just 4" that small disc but he, like you had the aperture to reach out there like that. Tell me what you think!

Peye


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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #6028285 - 08/15/13 11:46 PM

Hey what did you think of David Grays mars drawing in the apodizer thread? Just 4" that small disc but he, like you had the aperture to reach out there like that. Tell me what you think!

Pete


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RobDob
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6028377 - 08/16/13 12:53 AM Attachment (7 downloads)

Nice moon tonight, was compelled to go out and see if Maginus will reveal any changes. I could only manage about 250x and about 3km resolution because of seeing. This afocal shot is pretty close to what the eye sees. Pic is taken through my Z12 and 6mm Z-planetary eyepiece.

Rob


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RobDob
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: RobDob]
      #6028386 - 08/16/13 01:04 AM Attachment (15 downloads)

Compare to this reference pic from 11/12. If there was an impact event, it's not apparent at this resolution...

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RobDob
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: RobDob]
      #6028391 - 08/16/13 01:09 AM Attachment (15 downloads)

Oh dang, changed pages, reposting comparison pic from 8/15/13 (pg. 6):

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Asbytec
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: RobDob]
      #6028474 - 08/16/13 02:44 AM Attachment (14 downloads)

Thanks...

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GlennLeDrew
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6028508 - 08/16/13 03:23 AM

By comparison, Troublemaker's images are rather less sharp, with an odd smoothness apparent in places. This certainly obscures what we're supposed to be seeing. In fact, I'm still unsure of just what the purported transients are supposed to be; I can't identify anything which cannot be readily enough explained by variations in bad seeing.

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Rick Woods
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6028528 - 08/16/13 03:43 AM

Quote:

Hey what did you think of David Grays mars drawing in the apodizer thread? Just 4" that small disc but he, like you had the aperture to reach out there like that. Tell me what you think!

Peye




I think David is a far more skilled observer and draftsman than I am. That's a lot of detail for such a small disk!


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azure1961p
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #6028602 - 08/16/13 06:14 AM

Norme that's not ejecta its a pain't or blending tool adjustment via gimp or photoshop or the like. The odd smoothness Glenn refers to that is unlike the graininess of the original pic is the blending product of a photo editing tool. If it were real the same graininess, would be evident in a real plume.
That's the nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned.

Pete


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Asbytec
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6028675 - 08/16/13 08:09 AM

Yea, I gotta say there is not much in the way of impact ejecta evident. It's curious the projected impact point is that small bright rimmed crater (see the original OP sequence.) Before and after show nothing, IMO.

Glenn is correct, the resolution is less than the other two. And the 'plume' is beginning to look suspiciously like an artifact - intentional or otherwise - with "odd" smoothness compared to the rest of the image. Good point, Pete.

I really wanted to give benefit of the doubt, but I'm skeptical and now more convinced there's nothing to see here.


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sc285
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6037065 - 08/20/13 06:17 PM

From Dr. Tony Cook on Twitter TLP list:
https://twitter.com/lunarnaut

The images were analyzed by a Dr Arlin Crotts, astronomer and professor at Columbia University. His analysis showed this to be no more than internal reflections in the optical system.


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: sc285]
      #6037155 - 08/20/13 07:09 PM

In my first post in this thread I wrote that my first impression was of a ghost reflection. I seem to recall at least one other respondent here mooting the same notion...

Of course this is merely a best guess based on the evidence. But it's rather more likely than a cloud of debris (or even gas). This goes to show the danger of rushing to a conclusion, and especially of ascribing properties to a phenomenon for which the available data are of poor quality and not supported by another independent observation. Not scientific.


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Rick Woods
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #6039139 - 08/21/13 08:51 PM

Quote:

In my first post in this thread I wrote that my first impression was of a ghost reflection. I seem to recall at least one other respondent here mooting the same notion...

Of course this is merely a best guess based on the evidence. But it's rather more likely than a cloud of debris (or even gas). This goes to show the danger of rushing to a conclusion, and especially of ascribing properties to a phenomenon for which the available data are of poor quality and not supported by another independent observation. Not scientific.




Actually, the only hasty conclusion anyone drew was that it was a hoax. I didn't see any rush to believe it was an actual TLP.

What sort of optical reflection might look like that in a system where there was no eyepiece involved, only the objective and the camera?

And where has the OP gotten to?


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Rick Woods
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #6039149 - 08/21/13 08:56 PM

Hey, wait a minute! Go back to the first two posts. RobDob posted a control image taken last year, which shows the same light smear, just not as extended.

The OP's observation could have just been an effect of the light angle on an existing ejecta deposit.


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #6039336 - 08/21/13 11:12 PM

Rick,
As the OP wrote, and backed up with a pic of his gear, eyepiece projection was employed. Not that a reflection is necessarily the case, but the kind of variability and irregularity in the image sequence would seem to be more in keeping with an optical effect than a physical event. The other very real possibility is seeing variation.

Indeed, where has 'troublemaker' gone?


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Louietheflyisme
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #6042888 - 08/24/13 03:06 AM

My conclusion thus far is that of an impact creating a dist cloud. Though I am by no means an expert astronomer. These kinds of impacts apparently happen fairly often, or so I've read. However, I remain open to deabte

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Starhunter249
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A *DELETED* new [Re: Louietheflyisme]
      #6043727 - 08/24/13 02:25 PM

Post deleted by Starhunter249

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GlennLeDrew
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: Starhunter249]
      #6043864 - 08/24/13 04:12 PM

What is the scale on that image? Not intending to be flippant, but if I did not know that was a lunar scene I would seriously think it to be a 2 foot section of ancient asphalt on the edge of a beat up road.

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Starhunter249
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Re: July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #6044236 - 08/24/13 09:07 PM

I was asked to remove the NASA images. I forgotten about the rules. Posts deleted.

My mistake on the identity of the crater. The crater is actually a smaller one south east of Maginus (A) within the larger Maginus Crater. To give some kind of scale. The large forked shaped crevasse is about 200 meters in length.

Original blog: http://blog.moonzoo.org/2012/05/19/ejecta-blocking-boulders/

You can visit these two links where I got from the blog from:

http://wms.lroc.asu.edu/lroc/view_lroc/LRO-L-LROC-2-EDR-V1.0/M175308014LE

http://target.lroc.asu.edu/q3/

With access to the LRO images, who needs a telescope? Extreme large volume of images at your fingertips.


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