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Equipment Discussions >> Binoculars

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ThomasM
sage


Reged: 04/19/09

best binocular for viewing milky way
      #6030411 - 08/17/13 07:53 AM

What is the best binocular for viewing the milky way, the overall structure with star and dark clouds from a dark site ( 21.5 mag/arcsec^2) ?

I am presently considering the Nikon Action EX 7x35 with 9.3 degree FOV or 8x40 with 8 degree FOV, the Kowa 6x30 with 8 degree FOV seems to be to narrow (48 degree AFOV).

with many thanks in advance

Thomas


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Erik Bakker
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Reged: 08/10/06

Loc: The Netherlands, Europe
Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: ThomasM]
      #6030424 - 08/17/13 08:05 AM

Both Nikons should do fine, but you may find the 9.3 degrees of the 7x easier for the larger objects.

I use 7x42's with an 8.6 degree field for Milky Way cruising and find it much better than the 8x binos I also had. With the 9,3 degrees you will be able to see context and asterisms much better than with the 8 degree field. Anything bigger than ca. 8.5 degrees will do very well for your intended viewing.


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bumm
sage


Reged: 01/07/11

Loc: Iowa
Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Erik Bakker]
      #6030610 - 08/17/13 10:13 AM

I picked up a pair of Nikon's Aculon 7x35's with the 9.3 degree FOV. Very good for the money, and GREAT for wide field views of the Milky Way!
Marty


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KennyJ
The British Flash
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Reged: 04/27/03

Loc: Lancashire UK
Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: bumm]
      #6030681 - 08/17/13 10:53 AM

For me it's definitely a case of a preference for seeing the woods rather than the trees, but not at the expense of poor edge performance ruining the experience.

My most enjoyable views have been through Zeiss 7x42 with 8.6 degree TFOV, laying flat on a poolside lounger for a couple of hours either side of midnight in the Balearic and Canary Islands.

Kenny


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hallelujah
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Reged: 07/14/06

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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: ThomasM]
      #6030874 - 08/17/13 12:27 PM

Quote:

I am presently considering the Nikon Action EX 7x35 with 9.3 degree FOV...

Thomas




I'd cast my vote for the Nikon AE 7x35 9.3* FOV.

Stan

Edited by hallelujah (08/17/13 12:28 PM)


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TomCorbett
sage


Reged: 07/08/13

Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: hallelujah]
      #6031069 - 08/17/13 02:15 PM

Nikon 7x35


Edited by TomCorbett (08/17/13 02:15 PM)


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Simon S
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Reged: 01/07/07

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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: TomCorbett]
      #6031122 - 08/17/13 02:42 PM

A wide 8x40. May I suggest a Swift Saratoga MkII

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Erik Bakker
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: KennyJ]
      #6031135 - 08/17/13 02:47 PM

Kenny,

Some of your past endorsements for your 7x42 Dialyts contributed to me embarking on the same route. Absolutely wonderful experience cruising the Milky Way with my Zeiss FL 7x42's. Tried to find a nice pair of the Dialyt version but did not succeed, so settled on the new Victory FL's after a few months. Delightful binos. Such an involving, bright relaxing view. Unsurpassed for the MilkyWay!


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Mark9473
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Reged: 07/21/05

Loc: 51°N 4°E
Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Erik Bakker]
      #6031201 - 08/17/13 03:23 PM

I have a pair of those Nikon 7x35 but they're not my first choice for viewing the Milky Way's bright and dark nebulosity. Of the binoculars I have, I actually get the best views with my 15x60. More detail, better contrast, you get the picture.

If I had regular access to pristine skies I would own a pair of 10.5x70 for this particular purpose. I had a 7x50 in the past and for viewing dark nebulosity, the large exit pupil does deliver quality views. I would not go both to a smaller exit pupil and to a smaller aperture.


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faackanders2
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Reged: 03/28/11

Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: ThomasM]
      #6031269 - 08/17/13 03:58 PM

Quote:

What is the best binocular for viewing the milky way, the overall structure with star and dark clouds from a dark site ( 21.5 mag/arcsec^2) ?

I am presently considering the Nikon Action EX 7x35 with 9.3 degree FOV or 8x40 with 8 degree FOV, the Kowa 6x30 with 8 degree FOV seems to be to narrow (48 degree AFOV).

with many thanks in advance

Thomas




For panning the milkyway in general I like the blue planet 2.3x40 Galilean opera glasses (advertised 28 deg TFOV and near zero eye relief). 2nd choice 7x40 Orion UW 14 deg FOV. Neither are made in the US anymore. Vixen Ascot 8x50mm UW are pretty god too for handholding.


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Joe Ogiba
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: faackanders2]
      #6031362 - 08/17/13 04:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

What is the best binocular for viewing the milky way, the overall structure with star and dark clouds from a dark site ( 21.5 mag/arcsec^2) ?

I am presently considering the Nikon Action EX 7x35 with 9.3 degree FOV or 8x40 with 8 degree FOV, the Kowa 6x30 with 8 degree FOV seems to be to narrow (48 degree AFOV).

with many thanks in advance

Thomas




For panning the milkyway in general I like the blue planet 2.3x40 Galilean opera glasses (advertised 28 deg TFOV and near zero eye relief). 2nd choice 7x40 Orion UW 14 deg FOV. Neither are made in the US anymore. Vixen Ascot 8x50mm UW are pretty god too for handholding.



I have the 7x32 Orion Expanse with 14 deg FOV but did not know there was a 7x40 version made in the US . When were they made in the US ?


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davidmcgo
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Mark9473]
      #6031432 - 08/17/13 05:39 PM

I agree with Mark, a really great view with a 10x70! I have the Nikon 10x70 6.5 degree field and it is absolutely immersive for sweeping the Milky Way and a lot of dark nebula like Barnard's "E" near Altair just pop in these and the area just off the spout of Sagittarius' teapot is amazingly textured.

Way more impressive than my 9.3 degree Nikon 7x35 or Celestron 7x50 Nova.

Dave


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: davidmcgo]
      #6031530 - 08/17/13 06:35 PM

As can be divined, there is no one perfect binocular. For any task. Ask 10 people and you'll get at least 9 different recommendations. And any one person's tastes are almost guaranteed to evolve, too!

For the Milky Way, the widest field at the selected magnification is desirable. You must first decide what magnification and exit pupil you like. The aperture follows.

For a first bino for this task, 7-8X will serve well. Personally, I'm quite happy to suffer soft imagery toward the field edge if it buys me more field of view. My argument? If for a wide angle bino the central 50 degrees is as good as that for a narrower field bino, that extra outer field, even if aberrated, is a bonus! After all, with a hand held instrument you have no need to gaze toward the field edge. Let your lower resolution, highly sensitive outer retina utilize the outer field.

For such a vast object as the milky way, you'll appreciate a large apparent field.


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bumm
sage


Reged: 01/07/11

Loc: Iowa
Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Mark9473]
      #6031602 - 08/17/13 07:24 PM

Quote:

I have a pair of those Nikon 7x35 but they're not my first choice for viewing the Milky Way's bright and dark nebulosity. Of the binoculars I have, I actually get the best views with my 15x60. More detail, better contrast, you get the picture.

If I had regular access to pristine skies I would own a pair of 10.5x70 for this particular purpose. I had a 7x50 in the past and for viewing dark nebulosity, the large exit pupil does deliver quality views. I would not go both to a smaller exit pupil and to a smaller aperture.




I have a pair of 11x80's that are by far the best binocs I have for deep sky viewing, but for wide field views of the Milky Way, my little Nikon 7x35's do better. Different tools for different jobs...
Marty


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SMark
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 08/29/11

Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #6031721 - 08/17/13 08:43 PM

Quote:

For the Milky Way, the widest field at the selected magnification is desirable. You must first decide what magnification and exit pupil you like. The aperture follows.

For a first bino for this task, 7-8X will serve well. Personally, I'm quite happy to suffer soft imagery toward the field edge if it buys me more field of view. My argument? If for a wide angle bino the central 50 degrees is as good as that for a narrower field bino, that extra outer field, even if aberrated, is a bonus! After all, with a hand held instrument you have no need to gaze toward the field edge. Let your lower resolution, highly sensitive outer retina utilize the outer field.

For such a vast object as the milky way, you'll appreciate a large apparent field.






I couldn't agree more. Though I'm still looking for the "perfect night sky scanning" binocular. I've always been partial to my Super-Wide 7x35s, but recently I've purchased 3 Super-Wide angle 7x50s just to see what they might do for me (other than add weight!)


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Grimnir
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Reged: 04/28/10

Loc: London, England.
Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #6032244 - 08/18/13 04:09 AM

Glenn,

Quote:

If for a wide angle bino the central 50 degrees is as good as that for a narrower field bino, that extra outer field, even if aberrated, is a bonus!

For such a vast object as the milky way, you'll appreciate a large apparent field.




I completely agree and I don't understand how anyone can disagree.

An aberrated field is better than none at all.

It's a complete no-brainer.

Graham


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KennyJ
The British Flash
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Reged: 04/27/03

Loc: Lancashire UK
Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Grimnir]
      #6032255 - 08/18/13 04:26 AM

If an aberrations of the outer field were preferable to no field at all, then why do manufacturers even bother to do anything about rectifying them?

One would that thought a great portion of the considerable price of the more exotic eyepieces from TeleVue was precisely due to the minimisation of such.

Kenny


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Jon Isaacs
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Grimnir]
      #6032294 - 08/18/13 05:12 AM

Quote:

I completely agree and I don't understand how anyone can disagree.

An aberrated field is better than none at all.

It's a complete no-brainer.

Graham




But.. smaller, fewer aberrations are better than bigger, greater aberrations.

My own thinking is that there is no one best binocular, best scope, for viewing the Milky Way. The Milky Way has many scales, there are large scale details that may not be visible in a 1.6 degree TFoV but there are somewhat smaller scale details that will be visible in that 12 inch scope with the 1.6 degree TFoV but not seen in a pair of binoculars with a 9 degree TFoV.

For a given true field of view, the highest magnification, largest exit pupil is best... This translates into the largest aperture with the widest AFoV. Mel Bartel's 13 inch scope is F/3.3 and with a Paracorr and a 21mm Ethos provides a 1.9 degree TFoV.

Jon


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Grimnir
super member


Reged: 04/28/10

Loc: London, England.
Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: KennyJ]
      #6032307 - 08/18/13 05:27 AM

Kenny,

Quote:

If an aberrations of the outer field were preferable to no field at all, then why do manufacturers even bother to do anything about rectifying them?




Because it's better to have an aberration-free outer field than an aberrated outer field.

Given the choice of an aberrated outer field or no outer field at all I would take the aberrated outer field every time. Wouldn't you?

Graham


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JustaBoy
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 06/19/12

Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Grimnir]
      #6032310 - 08/18/13 05:36 AM

No - I think that it's really Ugly.
-Chuck


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edwincjones
Close Enough
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Reged: 04/10/04

Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: JustaBoy]
      #6032361 - 08/18/13 07:45 AM

there is no" best" for the milky way

I prefer naked eye for seeing the forest instead of the trees,
my 13 degree 5x32 miyauchis come next
for the trees bigger is better

depends on the whole item or individual DSOs

edj


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Grimnir]
      #6032415 - 08/18/13 08:41 AM

Quote:

Given the choice of an aberrated outer field or no outer field at all I would take the aberrated outer field every time. Wouldn't you?

Graham




Graham:

Not really.. there is a point at which the edge aberrations become distracting, when a bright star is such a mess that it bears no resemblance to a round point or dot, when a brighter field star is obviously astigmatic and a dim field star disappears.

These extreme widefields are the result of short focal length objectives and most often simple eyepiece designs pushed to the limit so in the outer field you have the combination of astigmatism from the eyepiece and field curvature from the objective.

My calculation for the field curvature at the edge of a pair of 7x35s with a 10 degree TFoV is 1.6mm, that's based on an F/4 objective. At F/4 this means the blur is 0.4mm at the focal plane and will be magnified 7x... And we are not using Naglers here to handle the astigmatism.

There is a point where I find a narrower field of view is preferable. In this situation, since the aperture and field of view are open, I generally choose a somewhat larger binocular that is better corrected, probably due to a smaller amount of field curvature over an ulta wide field design.

The larger binocular can have the same generous AFoV but reduced aberrations.

Jon


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bumm
sage


Reged: 01/07/11

Loc: Iowa
Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: JustaBoy]
      #6032432 - 08/18/13 08:54 AM

I simply couldn't afford extremely wide angle binos with a perfectly flat field. Given that reality, I love my cheaper wide angle 7x35's. Would a perfectly flat field be better? Sure, but the SLIGHTLY distorted field is much better than nothing.
Marty


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John_G
sage


Reged: 01/18/10

Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: ThomasM]
      #6032482 - 08/18/13 09:34 AM

Quote:

What is the best binocular for viewing the milky way, the overall structure with star and dark clouds from a dark site ( 21.5 mag/arcsec^2) ?

with many thanks in advance

Thomas




For scanning activities from a very dark site I like my 8x40s to see structure. The variety of shades and patterns of dark and bright nebula seem to really stand out. They feel good in the hand, they're a comfortable weight and give me a nice and steady view.


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Andresin150
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Reged: 08/14/07

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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: John_G]
      #6032509 - 08/18/13 09:49 AM

I like "perfect" images and really wide AFovs. Regardless magnification, my three preferred binoculars give me that, the Docters giving considerably more Afov at the expense of aperture...
Mounted not very portable: Fujinon 40x150ED
Mounted but portable: Docter Aspectem 40x80ED
Handheld: Swarovision 8x32 and SW 10x42EL

For what I've read, the Kowa Prominar 32x82 softness in the edge is not distracting, so they may well be also in the second cathegory (soon), but really distorted edges are unacceptable to me... I'm in the smaller group that would choose a near perfect edge/small Afov over the opposite.


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Grimnir
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Reged: 04/28/10

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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6032748 - 08/18/13 12:12 PM

Jon,

Quote:

there is a point at which the edge aberrations become distracting




I have only ever looked through one binocular where the outer field was distracting to the point where I would have preferred not to have had it.

With a wide field you have greater context and can readily detect movement in the outer field as Glenn has pointed out. I had three satellites in a single 11.5* field a few evenings ago and that field was much more immersive than the the 8.8* field of my Nikon 8x30 EII.

Graham


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Grimnir]
      #6032836 - 08/18/13 01:06 PM

As I often point out, if you gaze toward the field center, even pretty bad edge-of-field aberration is hardly perceived as such by the non-foveal retina. Peripheral vision is of notoriously low resolving power, but it's sensitive to both light and motion; very useful to have a more expansive view when star hopping or general panning. Even surprisingly subtle 'fuzzies' call attention to themselves as they enter the field edge, in spite of the aberrations. I continually marvel at just how potent is the peripheral vision in differentiating a not glaringly obvious DSO from even sizeably blurred stars.

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KennyJ
The British Flash
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Reged: 04/27/03

Loc: Lancashire UK
Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #6033260 - 08/18/13 05:30 PM

Graham et al,

To clarify my preference, I prefer views through Plossl-like eyepieces with around 50 degrees of "mainly sharp", very nicely framed stars, such as what is seen through Captain's Helmsman 7x50, to views through Orion Expanse 7x32, with around 84 degrees AFOV, around 40 degrees of which only is sharp, the rest being little more than a blur, especially with practically non-existent eye-relief.

So in short, my answer to your question is "no".

Kenny


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JustaBoy
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 06/19/12

Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: KennyJ]
      #6033266 - 08/18/13 05:34 PM

I'm with you, Kenny - Thanks!
-Chuck


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #6033335 - 08/18/13 06:05 PM

Quote:

As I often point out, if you gaze toward the field center, even pretty bad edge-of-field aberration is hardly perceived as such by the non-foveal retina. Peripheral vision is of notoriously low resolving power, but it's sensitive to both light and motion; very useful to have a more expansive view when star hopping or general panning. Even surprisingly subtle 'fuzzies' call attention to themselves as they enter the field edge, in spite of the aberrations. I continually marvel at just how potent is the peripheral vision in differentiating a not glaringly obvious DSO from even sizeably blurred stars.




Glenn:

I have to admit that I am coming at this from the standpoint of someone who primarily observes with a telescope. In the telescope world, wide apparent fields of view that are well illuminated and free from aberrations like field curvature, coma, and astigmatism are possible and bright off-axis stars can be quite distracting. And too, smaller fainter objects are detectable off-axis with a better corrected view.

Still, I think there is no one best tool, one best magnification aperture, field of view for observing the Milky Way, they are all good in their own way. A 10 degree TFoV in a 7x35mm binocular shows certain scale. A 1.7 degree TFoV in a 12.5 inch telescope at 38x shows a certain scale. One is not better than the other, they are different and wonderful in their own way.

Jon


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mountain monk
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6033515 - 08/18/13 08:01 PM

+1. And better yet, most of us get to choose both, or, more likely, more.

Dark skies.

Jack


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faackanders2
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Reged: 03/28/11

Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Joe Ogiba]
      #6033677 - 08/18/13 10:16 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

What is the best binocular for viewing the milky way, the overall structure with star and dark clouds from a dark site ( 21.5 mag/arcsec^2) ?

I am presently considering the Nikon Action EX 7x35 with 9.3 degree FOV or 8x40 with 8 degree FOV, the Kowa 6x30 with 8 degree FOV seems to be to narrow (48 degree AFOV).

with many thanks in advance

Thomas




For panning the milkyway in general I like the blue planet 2.3x40 Galilean opera glasses (advertised 28 deg TFOV and near zero eye relief). 2nd choice 7x40 Orion UW 14 deg FOV. Neither are made in the US anymore. Vixen Ascot 8x50mm UW are pretty god too for handholding.



I have the 7x32 Orion Expanse with 14 deg FOV but did not know there was a 7x40 version made in the US . When were they made in the US ?




Sorry, I was going from memory. You are correct they wer Orion 7x32 UW 14 deg TFOV. I also had an 8x40UW 9.4 TFOV 5mm exit pupil that I liked, as well as the 10x50 SW Vixen Ascot 8.5 deg TFOV 5mm exit pupil 7mm eye relief.


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Mr. Bill
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: faackanders2]
      #6034280 - 08/19/13 10:28 AM

I find my Fuji 10x50 FMT SX with 65 degree afov (6.5 real fov) to be ideal for looking at the MW "forest."

A flat, well corrected to the edge fov, and very good edge of field illumination which these have is "my cup of tea."



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Man in a Tub
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #6035620 - 08/19/13 11:42 PM

Quote:

I find my Fuji 10x50 FMT SX with 65 degree afov (6.5 real fov) to be ideal for looking at the MW "forest."

A flat, well corrected to the edge fov, and very good edge of field illumination which these have is "my cup of tea."






Ed Z measured the Fujinon 10x50 FMT-SX TFOV at 6.7°. To the best of my ability, I have confirmed that measurement. Not that one should doubt Ed's tests.


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Mr. Bill
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Man in a Tub]
      #6035630 - 08/19/13 11:49 PM

Even better....

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RichD
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #6036142 - 08/20/13 10:09 AM

Yes, not often a bino or scope is better than advertised!

As good as the nikon 12x50se is, the Fuji 10x50 FMT still beats it on milky way sweeping due to the huge AFOV and the sheer number of stars it puts into each field of view.

Doesn't hurt that the contrast is excellent too.


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KennyJ
The British Flash
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: RichD]
      #6036392 - 08/20/13 12:24 PM

Plaudits for the Fujinon FMTSX 10x50 only serve to agree with my previously declared preference.

For example, several of us have or have owned Swift Audubon Kestrel 10x50 with an even wider AFOV than the Fuji, yet I can't recall a single user rating it a favourite for astro use!

Kenny


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steve@37n83.9w
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: RichD]
      #6036407 - 08/20/13 12:32 PM

For bino viewing my favorite areas of the Milky Way are the dense star fields around Cygnus and the binos I use most are my Fujinon and PIF 10x50s. Higher magnifications let you see deeper and lower magnifications let you see more area but I think the wide field views of a premium 10x50 offer the best compromise when viewing the Milky Way.

Steve


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hallelujah
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way *DELETED* new [Re: KennyJ]
      #6036423 - 08/20/13 12:42 PM

Post deleted by hallelujah

Edited by hallelujah (08/21/13 11:01 AM)


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: hallelujah]
      #6036558 - 08/20/13 01:48 PM

Quote:


Perhaps you would be so kind as to clarify your comparison further.




The way I read Kenny's post, he was saying that the Swift Kestrel had an wider field of view than the Fujinonsbut no one he knew thought the Swifts were a great binocular.

The point being that a poorly corrected widefield of view is not necessarily an advantage, something that has been asserted by some...

Jon


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SMark
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6036634 - 08/20/13 02:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Perhaps you would be so kind as to clarify your comparison further.




The way I read Kenny's post, he was saying that the Swift Kestrel had an wider field of view than the Fujinonsbut no one he knew thought the Swifts were a great binocular.

The point being that a poorly corrected widefield of view is not necessarily an advantage, something that has been asserted by some...

Jon




C'mon guys, you're splitting hairs here. For all practical purposes the Polaris and Kestral 10x50s have the same FOV. The plain fact is that the Polaris is just better (for our purposes, anyway) than any other 10x50 porro available today or yesterday. And the fact that it also has a wide field of view is one of the reasons why it is so well liked. The wide field *feature* of the Polaris 10x50 is very often mentioned right along with its outstanding field corrections.

It's like having your cake and eating it too!

Edited by SMark (08/20/13 06:18 PM)


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Mr. Bill
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: SMark]
      #6036671 - 08/20/13 02:43 PM

Lets see....

would I rather have a contrasty flat field with pinpoint stars out to 90% of the edge

or...

a fov that looks like Hans Solo going into Hyperdrive to gain a little more fov....hummmm.



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KennyJ
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #6036684 - 08/20/13 02:49 PM

Stan,

I believe there is no need for me to expand further.

Jon obviously understood what I was trying to say.

Kenny


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hallelujah
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: SMark]
      #6036940 - 08/20/13 05:15 PM

Mark,

Thank you for hitting the nail on the head.

Stan


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KennyJ
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: hallelujah]
      #6036952 - 08/20/13 05:25 PM

Stan,

You could just as easily thanked ME for hitting the nail on the head, as Steve(whom you referred to as Mark) essentially said exactly the same thing that I've been saying all along in this thread, which is that any wider areas of field that show stars considerably less sharp than the central field is not really worth having.

Kenny


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Grimnir
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: KennyJ]
      #6036954 - 08/20/13 05:26 PM

Kenny et al,

You're very cheeky comparing expensive binos with smaller fields to cheaper binos with wider fields and claiming that the more expensive binos are superior because of their smaller fields!

The issue is not one of particular models but of a principle:

Consider two otherwise identical binoculars, let's call them 'Standard' and 'Wide'. The sole difference is that 'Wide' has an outer field where 'Standard' has none, they are identical in all other respects.

I prefer 'Wide' to 'Standard' even if the 'Wide' outer field is aberrated.

Don't you?

Graham


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KennyJ
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Grimnir]
      #6036981 - 08/20/13 05:38 PM

Graham,

For a start, I wouldn't classify my Swift Audubon Kestrel as "cheap" binoculars.

They were priced at over £300 in the mid 1990s.

The second point is I'm not suggesting the Fujinons are "Superior, BECAUSE they have a narrower FOV"

In fact, as Steve implied, the difference between 6.7 and 6.9 degrees TFOV is neither here nor there really.

I only prefer "wide" to "standard" if at least a noticeable portion of that extra field is showing me something beyond AND what I find as easy on the eyes as what can be seen in the "standard".

Kenny


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JustaBoy
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Grimnir]
      #6036986 - 08/20/13 05:42 PM

No - Not me!
-Chuck


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Andresin150
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: JustaBoy]
      #6037024 - 08/20/13 06:02 PM

Is there a model besides the SV 8x32 that shows 8°, with actual 8° of pinpoint stars right to the edge?... if they only came up with a 10° version or an 8° 10x40....

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Littlegreenman
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #6037216 - 08/20/13 07:49 PM

Quote:

snip!... Ask 10 people and you'll get at least 9 different recommendations. snip!




I couldn't resist. Often if you ask 10 people you will get
eleven recommendations.

==
But back to basic question. Let's divide binoculars into two classes for viewing of the Milkey Way.
1. small, hand held binoculars; the 7x35, 8x40. Lightweight , show a relatively large patch of sky.
2. large, mounted binoculars, higher magnification, showing a smaller patch of sky.

...and let's add a third class: binoculars that try to do some or all of both of the above.

I like them all, which leads to the conclusion that if you get one binocular you will limit you viewing experience to one type. If you don't have any binoculars, I would recommened you start with something that can be hand held. That way you will probably use them a lot more.

Down the road you can always get another pair!

LGM

This hobby, like Graemlins, can be addictive.


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Rich V.
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Littlegreenman]
      #6037253 - 08/20/13 08:17 PM

Quote:

But back to basic question. Let's divide binoculars into two classes for viewing of the Milkey Way.
1. small, hand held binoculars; the 7x35, 8x40. Lightweight , show a relatively large patch of sky.
2. large, mounted binoculars, higher magnification, showing a smaller patch of sky.

...and let's add a third class: binoculars that try to do some or all of both of the above.




Being that the OP asked about a choice between 7x35s, 8x30s and 6x30s, I stayed away from even mentioning that a LOT of Milky Way viewing enjoyment, at least for me, is at much higher magnifications and smaller FOVs in larger binoculars.

I admit to having relatively dark skies here so the Milky Way is always quite visible; instead of big swaths of unresolved stars/starclouds, I really like the deeper views that 70mm or 100mm binos give. Instead of unresolved stars, I see thousands upon thousands of resolved stars as well as the background glow of many thousands more that are unresolved. Seeing dark nebulae that obscure some of these multitudes of stars is breathtaking at 25x-30x; not so much at 7x, IMO.

To think that only small WF binos would be "best for viewing the Milky Way" is really quite limiting.

I agree with LGM's point that only using one class of bino for MW viewing can certainly limit your viewing experience as a whole.

Some might argue that the best bino for comfortable, stable MW viewing may be a 25x100 binocular telescope...

Rich


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Grimnir]
      #6037274 - 08/20/13 08:34 PM

Quote:

Kenny et al,

You're very cheeky comparing expensive binos with smaller fields to cheaper binos with wider fields and claiming that the more expensive binos are superior because of their smaller fields!

The issue is not one of particular models but of a principle:

Consider two otherwise identical binoculars, let's call them 'Standard' and 'Wide'. The sole difference is that 'Wide' has an outer field where 'Standard' has none, they are identical in all other respects.

I prefer 'Wide' to 'Standard' even if the 'Wide' outer field is aberrated.

Don't you?

Graham




Graham:

I think Kenny is simply saying that he prefers binoculars that provide a relatively clean outer field of view and will choose binoculars with a narrower field of view that is clean over a pair with a wider field that are noticeably aberrated.

My own standard for a well corrected, well illuminated field of view is 31mm Nagler in my NP-101. I can cast a careful eye anywhere in the field of view and everything will be quite sharp, no field curvature, no astigmatism.

I have not seen binoculars with this level of correction, I am down there in the under $400 class and mostly way below. What I find is that some binoculars manage to be free of distractions and some don't. I carry a pair of 10x50 action extremes in my truck and while they provide reasonable views on-axis, the off-axis views are clearly aberrated and very distracting. I also have a pair of Swift Seawolf 10x50s which have the same nominal 6.5 degree TFoV and while an inspection of the off-axis stars shows them to clearly suffer from significant astigmatism and field curvature, somehow, I find it acceptable.

Jon


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RichD
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6037748 - 08/21/13 05:59 AM

Jon, the Fuji FMT is very close to that level of correction. Maybe not quite up to the level of a Nagler in an NP-101 but very close.

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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: RichD]
      #6037832 - 08/21/13 07:45 AM

Quote:

Jon, the Fuji FMT is very close to that level of correction. Maybe not quite up to the level of a Nagler in an NP-101 but very close.




If it was close to the Nagler in the NP-101 it would also have an 7.8 degree TFoV..

Given the issues with field curvature, astigmatism in such a fast optic as well as the size of the fully illuminated field, it's difficult for me to imagine that one really get that level of correction in a binocular, where a star at the edge looks like a star at the center.

Jon


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steve@37n83.9w
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6038367 - 08/21/13 01:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Jon, the Fuji FMT is very close to that level of correction. Maybe not quite up to the level of a Nagler in an NP-101 but very close.




If it was close to the Nagler in the NP-101 it would also have an 7.8 degree TFoV..

Given the issues with field curvature, astigmatism in such a fast optic as well as the size of the fully illuminated field, it's difficult for me to imagine that one really get that level of correction in a binocular, where a star at the edge looks like a star at the center.

Jon




Jon

Actually I've found two binoculars where stars are pin point to the very edge, i.e. if it's in the fov it's tack sharp. One is the 7x50 Prostar which is no surprise considering its legendary edge performance and the other is the lesser known 7x50 PIF. I also have several other binoculars that offer great quality view across nearly the full fov but only the two 7x50s mentioned are sharp across the entire fov even the very outer edge.

Steve


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: steve@37n83.9w]
      #6038401 - 08/21/13 01:52 PM

Quote:

Jon

Actually I've found two binoculars where stars are pin point to the very edge, i.e. if it's in the fov it's tack sharp. One is the 7x50 Prostar which is no surprise considering its legendary edge performance and the other is the lesser known 7x50 PIF. I also have several other binoculars that offer great quality view across nearly the full fov but only the two 7x50s mentioned are sharp across the entire fov even the very outer edge.

Steve





What is the criteria for "pinpoint to the edge." What does Rigel or Acturus look like at the field stop?

Jon


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Andresin150
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: steve@37n83.9w]
      #6038428 - 08/21/13 02:07 PM

Yes, unfortunately both of those binoculars (I used to have the excellent Prostar) have a somewhat restrictive Afov...

For me, Any binocular should have at least 60° AFov so I begin to enjoy it... Beyond that is a bonus, but the image should be good to the edge or at least near it... I dont find value in a distorted edge....
Imagine the Prostars but with more Afov, and consider that the extra Afov is distorted... that in my opinion will certainly ruin them...


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ThomasM
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Rich V.]
      #6038856 - 08/21/13 06:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

But back to basic question. Let's divide binoculars into two classes for viewing of the Milkey Way.
1. small, hand held binoculars; the 7x35, 8x40. Lightweight , show a relatively large patch of sky.
2. large, mounted binoculars, higher magnification, showing a smaller patch of sky.

...and let's add a third class: binoculars that try to do some or all of both of the above.




Being that the OP asked about a choice between 7x35s, 8x30s and 6x30s, I stayed away from even mentioning that a LOT of Milky Way viewing enjoyment, at least for me, is at much higher magnifications and smaller FOVs in larger binoculars.

I admit to having relatively dark skies here so the Milky Way is always quite visible; instead of big swaths of unresolved stars/starclouds, I really like the deeper views that 70mm or 100mm binos give. Instead of unresolved stars, I see thousands upon thousands of resolved stars as well as the background glow of many thousands more that are unresolved. Seeing dark nebulae that obscure some of these multitudes of stars is breathtaking at 25x-30x; not so much at 7x, IMO.

To think that only small WF binos would be "best for viewing the Milky Way" is really quite limiting.

I agree with LGM's point that only using one class of bino for MW viewing can certainly limit your viewing experience as a whole.

Some might argue that the best bino for comfortable, stable MW viewing may be a 25x100 binocular telescope...

Rich




Thanks a lot for all the interesting and helpful comments and remarks.

Actually, my original post and question was presumably not sufficient precise. I own a homemade 160 mm apochromatic double refractor with 2" eypieces (40 mm Pargagon, 17 mm Ethos and Leica zoom with 1.5 x barlow giving 2.5 degree FOV (with 40 mm Paragon) and up to 160 x magnification) which is my favorite instrument not only for milky way viewing. Then I own a Canon 15x45 IS binocular with image stabilization and a Leica Trinovid 8x20, both I premarily use for watching birds etc.

So, I am mainly looking for a handheld binocular with 6x -8x magnigication, a large FOV and large aperature. A wide angle binocular for viewing the milky way, the overall structure with star and dark clouds from a dark site ( 21.5 mag/arcsec^2) ? The Zeiss Victory 7x42 FL might be a good choice, but since I use my large binocular telescope most of the time spending a lot of money for a binocular I will only use for a few hours the year (for hiking and bird watching the Trinovid 8x20 (only 230 g!)is much more convient.

So, presently my most favorite, affordable candidates are the Nikon 7x35 Action EX, Nikon Action EX 8x40 and the rather old Zeiss Dialyt 7x42. How do they compare? Is the edge sharpness of the Nikon 7x35 inferior than that of the 8x40? Is the performance of the Zeiss Dialyt 7x42 (8.5 degree FOV) close to that of the Victory 7x42 FL or a significant step below closer to that of the Nikon Actions?

Thomas

Edited by ThomasM (08/21/13 06:47 PM)


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KennyJ
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: ThomasM]
      #6038937 - 08/21/13 06:46 PM

Thomas,

Having been the once proud owner for ten years of a Zeiss Dialyt BGAT 7x42, and having also used a Zeiss Victory FL 7x42, my opinion is that any superiority in the latter is certainly not related to "edge performance" per se.

None of the Nikon Actions even come close in that regard.

Kenny


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steve@37n83.9w
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6039419 - 08/22/13 12:41 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Jon

Actually I've found two binoculars where stars are pin point to the very edge, i.e. if it's in the fov it's tack sharp. One is the 7x50 Prostar which is no surprise considering its legendary edge performance and the other is the lesser known 7x50 PIF. I also have several other binoculars that offer great quality view across nearly the full fov but only the two 7x50s mentioned are sharp across the entire fov even the very outer edge.

Steve





What is the criteria for "pinpoint to the edge." What does Rigel or Acturus look like at the field stop?

Jon




Quite simply the stars in the outer fov look as good as those in the center. I often purposely observe a particular star on axis and then move it to the outer fov and it still looks the same, no color fringing or spiking.

I just spent a little while tonight in my lounger viewing the around the zenith and checking out Vega (in the 7x50 Prostar) and again just as good in the outer fov as the center. I had no trouble splitting Zeta Lyrae in the very edge of fov either. I sometimes wonder why people have trouble understanding sharp to the edge performance of the 7x50 Prostars (and 7x50 PIF) especially considering their typical 7x50 limited fov.

I'm actually more impressed with some of the binoculars that offer views that are sharp almost to the very edge but with a wider apparent fof such as the 10x50 FMTR-SX and 10x50 PIF.

Steve


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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: steve@37n83.9w]
      #6039607 - 08/22/13 05:33 AM

[quoteI'm actually more impressed with some of the binoculars that offer views that are sharp almost to the very edge but with a wider apparent fof such as the 10x50 FMTR-SX and 10x50 PIF.

Steve




Yes, it must be harder to achieve. With it's wider than advertised TFOV, the fujis AFOV is around 70 deg - wider than a Panoptic and with pretty much identical correction. That's incredible really at f/4 ish.


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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: RichD]
      #6040036 - 08/22/13 12:25 PM

One of those fun CN threads.

My favorite Milky Way binoculars are my Celestron 15x70 SkyMasters.

I like the wider field views with smaller binoculars and seeing the bigger objects and multiple objects in one FOV but I always fairly quickly want to zoom in and see more.

My next favorite Milky Way binoculars will be whatever 15x70 I buy next.


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planetmalc
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: ThomasM]
      #6040154 - 08/22/13 01:29 PM

Quote:

I own a homemade 160 mm apochromatic double refractor with 2" eypieces (40 mm Pargagon, 17 mm Ethos..........

I am mainly looking for a handheld binocular with 6x -8x magnigication, a large FOV and large aperature. A wide angle binocular for viewing the milky way, the overall structure with star and dark clouds from a dark site ( 21.5 mag/arcsec^2)




Why not build your own? Get a couple of OG's of 4" to 5.5" focal length mounted in blackened tubes and team them up with your 17mm Ethos set. No prisms - the Milky Way looks the same whether it's upright or inverted - and you'll have a low-power UWA unit that will blow any commercial binocular away. Sadly, there'll be no 'retail therapy' dynamic with this option........


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Mr. Bill
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: planetmalc]
      #6040200 - 08/22/13 01:52 PM

Quote:



Why not build your own? Get a couple of OG's of 4" to 5.5" focal length mounted in blackened tubes and team them up with your 17mm Ethos set. No prisms - the Milky Way looks the same whether it's upright or inverted - and you'll have a low-power UWA unit that will blow any commercial binocular away. Sadly, there'll be no 'retail therapy' dynamic with this option........




I second the idea of using mirrors instead of prisms.

My homemade 5 inch f/5.5 uses three mirrors (all 1/10 wave, one enhanced aluminum and two dielectric) to give erect, reversed images...the same as a diagonal in a refractor.

Much more contrast than any prism system, IMO and I own both Oberwerk BT100 45s and APM 100 45s and owned Fuji 25x150s so I have first hand knowledge of this.

Why someone doesn't run with this design commercially is a mystery to me.



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Andresin150
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #6040209 - 08/22/13 01:57 PM

Probably because if advertised as binoculars, it would be very difficult to commercialize a reversed image instrument that most users would want for terrestrial use also....

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Mr. Bill
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Andresin150]
      #6040341 - 08/22/13 03:23 PM

Good point...

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ThomasM
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #6041140 - 08/23/13 01:59 AM

Quote:

Quote:



Why not build your own? Get a couple of OG's of 4" to 5.5" focal length mounted in blackened tubes and team them up with your 17mm Ethos set. No prisms - the Milky Way looks the same whether it's upright or inverted - and you'll have a low-power UWA unit that will blow any commercial binocular away. Sadly, there'll be no 'retail therapy' dynamic with this option........




I second the idea of using mirrors instead of prisms.

My homemade 5 inch f/5.5 uses three mirrors (all 1/10 wave, one enhanced aluminum and two dielectric) to give erect, reversed images...the same as a diagonal in a refractor.

Much more contrast than any prism system, IMO and I own both Oberwerk BT100 45s and APM 100 45s and owned Fuji 25x150s so I have first hand knowledge of this.

Why someone doesn't run with this design commercially is a mystery to me.






Such binoculars are commerically available:

http://www.binoptic.de/

minimum lens diameter 80 mm but they are rather expensive.

There is also a secont alternativ with two mirrors ( 60 degree) giving an erected, non-reversed image.

http://www.aokswiss.ch/index_bino.html


those are using the Japanes EMS erecting mirror system. From my own experience with a 160 mm binocular, it makes use of the EMS mirrors - I can say that they give excellent constrast and transmission. If you look on the price tag, such design makes only sense for large instruments, you could proably make a 50 mm ultra wide angle binocular but it will cost more then the most recent Zeiss or Leitz binoculars, I guess.

Thomas

Edited by ThomasM (08/23/13 02:03 AM)


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dbx
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: ThomasM]
      #6041251 - 08/23/13 05:17 AM

I own the Nikon Action Extreme 7x35's and they are SUBLIME for gazing at the milkyway. I just did it for the recent meteor shower atop a pitch black mountain in the south west. These nikon's are awesome for the money and will satisfy an urge for larger AFOVº. I even bought a tripod mount adapter to use on a mount. Its great for terrestrial use all the same. GET THE NIKONS!

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Mr. Bill
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: ThomasM]
      #6041752 - 08/23/13 11:56 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



Why not build your own? Get a couple of OG's of 4" to 5.5" focal length mounted in blackened tubes and team them up with your 17mm Ethos set. No prisms - the Milky Way looks the same whether it's upright or inverted - and you'll have a low-power UWA unit that will blow any commercial binocular away. Sadly, there'll be no 'retail therapy' dynamic with this option........




I second the idea of using mirrors instead of prisms.

My homemade 5 inch f/5.5 uses three mirrors (all 1/10 wave, one enhanced aluminum and two dielectric) to give erect, reversed images...the same as a diagonal in a refractor.

Much more contrast than any prism system, IMO and I own both Oberwerk BT100 45s and APM 100 45s and owned Fuji 25x150s so I have first hand knowledge of this.

Why someone doesn't run with this design commercially is a mystery to me.






Such binoculars are commerically available:

http://www.binoptic.de/

minimum lens diameter 80 mm but they are rather expensive.

There is also a secont alternativ with two mirrors ( 60 degree) giving an erected, non-reversed image.

http://www.aokswiss.ch/index_bino.html


those are using the Japanes EMS erecting mirror system. From my own experience with a 160 mm binocular, it makes use of the EMS mirrors - I can say that they give excellent constrast and transmission. If you look on the price tag, such design makes only sense for large instruments, you could proably make a 50 mm ultra wide angle binocular but it will cost more then the most recent Zeiss or Leitz binoculars, I guess.

Thomas




There is no inherent reason that mirrored binoculars should be expensive...I built mine for under $3000 and I'll put it up against any commercial binocular for optical quality for its intended purpose....viewing Milky Way structure.


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Mr. Bill
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #6041827 - 08/23/13 12:45 PM Attachment (7 downloads)

Here's the part list....not included in parts list are TV 19mm Pans $500/pr, 24mm Pans $600/pr. Both eps produce pinpoint star images across entire fov.

Edited by Mr. Bill (08/23/13 02:08 PM)


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ThomasM
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #6041865 - 08/23/13 01:12 PM

Quote:



There is no inherent reason that mirrored binoculars should be expensive...I built mine for under $3000 and I'll put it up against any commercial binocular for optical quality for its intended purpose....viewing Milky Way structure.




I agree, if you do everything yourself, then a mirrored binocular may be not so expensive, but if you buy the necessary parts, e.g. the EMS erecting mirrors, apochromatic lenses then you can easily spend a lot of money. I think all the effort only makes sense if you built a large instrument as you did (and I did too). I think for the price it does not to so much matter if you use prisms or mirrors. The prims better suit for mass production in small comercial binocular, mirrors are better for large binoculars with interchangle eypieces allowing high magnification.

Thomas

p.s. making a small ultra wide field (more than 10 degrees FOV), rather large aperture 50 to 70 mm binocular seems to me intersting, but it will not be cheap, you need two 100 degree eypieces (Ethos 17mm, may be Ethos 13 mm, ES are to thick). I was considering that but (so far came) to the conclusion that purchaising a comerical binocular (Nikon, Zeiss?) is much easier. Sure, you do not get the ultimate performance in terms of FOV, aperture, edge sharpnes

Edited by ThomasM (08/23/13 01:22 PM)


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PowellAstro
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #6041903 - 08/23/13 01:34 PM

@ Mr. Bill

Do you have any pictures posted or can you please post some?


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Mr. Bill
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: ThomasM]
      #6041916 - 08/23/13 01:46 PM

Quote:


I agree, if you do everything yourself, then a mirrored binocular may be not so expensive, but if you buy the necessary parts, e.g. the EMS erecting mirrors, apochromatic lenses then you can easily spend a lot of money.





My point was that you DON'T have to spend a lot of money IF you use a three mirror system and achromat lens set.

Quote:


I think all the effort only makes sense if you built a large instrument as you did (and I did too). I think for the price it does not to so much matter if you use prisms or mirrors.




My point was that mirror systems are inherently superior to prism systems and will produce better contrast.

Quote:


The prims better suit for mass production in small comercial binocular, mirrors are better for large binoculars with interchangle eypieces allowing high magnification.





I agree...


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Mr. Bill
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: PowellAstro]
      #6041975 - 08/23/13 02:30 PM

Quote:

@ Mr. Bill

Do you have any pictures posted or can you please post some?




http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5262069


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #6041996 - 08/23/13 02:41 PM

In the ultra-wide AFoV department, I do use 13mm Ethos eyepieces (100 degree) on my home-made right-angle bino, yielding:
12.7X50, 7.7 degrees
20.8X60, 4.7 degrees

If I obtained the 17mm Ethoi:
9.7X50, 10 degrees (but field curvature would be worse)
15.9X60, 6.2 degrees.


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ThomasM
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #6042008 - 08/23/13 02:50 PM

Quote:



http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5262069




Thanks a lot and congratulation, the instrument looks very nice, I saw your posts when you started to project but I didn't followed to the end.
By the way, what is the weight of the instrument?

best regards

Thomas


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Mr. Bill
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: ThomasM]
      #6042014 - 08/23/13 02:54 PM

30 pounds including eps and finder...

The bulk of the weight is the mount with counterweight..

about 55 pounds but rock steady which is certainly necessary for higher magnification.

The 21 pound counterweight can be left off without affecting viewing stability, but I aways feel better if used to equalize weight distribution on this alti azimuth mount.

Edited by Mr. Bill (08/23/13 03:07 PM)


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PowellAstro
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #6042108 - 08/23/13 03:59 PM

@ Mr. Bill,

I checked out your other thread. They are awesome and look great! One question, how do you keep the last pair of diags square to each other? What locks them in a vertical position for collimation?


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Mr. Bill
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: PowellAstro]
      #6042153 - 08/23/13 04:20 PM

Use a carpenter's small All Square referenced to top surface and secure with 2 inch diagonal lock screw...

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PowellAstro
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #6042196 - 08/23/13 04:43 PM

They are very nice and I am sure the views are very good. I am interested in this is the only reason for the questions. Do, you get any rotational error, if the two large 2" diags are not swung the same amount together?

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Mr. Bill
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: PowellAstro]
      #6042228 - 08/23/13 04:55 PM

Quote:

They are very nice and I am sure the views are very good. I am interested in this is the only reason for the questions. Do, you get any rotational error, if the two large 2" diags are not swung the same amount together?




no....if everything's square and parallel which is tweeked and locked in during initial setup. This is where careful attention is required during construction.

Small corrections in collimation is easily achieved by a slight adjustment with 5/32 hex wrench to 3.1 inch mirror's holder 3 point wobble plate. Takes about 10 seconds if necessary at the beginning of observing session.

Components are quite robust in holding alignment and often don't require any tweeking from session to session.


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Rich V.
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #6042267 - 08/23/13 05:16 PM

What's nice about this three mirror design is that the last two mirrors (2" diag + 1-1/4" diag) mimic a rhomb prism. This allows the "turrets" to rotate independently for easy IPD adjustment without creating any error. The mirrors must be locked into a rigid assy so that they remain parallel to each other at all times, of course.

This is really no different than the rotation of the optical axes of a standard binocular around the hinge axis when setting IPD.

Rich


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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Rich V.]
      #6042289 - 08/23/13 05:30 PM

I have two nice SN-6 Tubes that show very sharp images @ 150-200x with single eyepieces. They are F/5 scopes. The OTAs are 7" OD. They already have the secondary mirrors as they are designed for WF. So, if I build a mount to connect the two OTAs and add the two 2" diags and two 1.25" Diags, they should work? Small Collimation errors, if all else is aligned as it should be, could then be done by the secondary of these two OTAs. They are 152mm - F/5, 752mm FL. What are your thoughts?

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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: PowellAstro]
      #6042349 - 08/23/13 06:15 PM

Quote:

I have two nice SN-6 Tubes >>> So, if I build a mount to connect the two OTAs and add the two 2" diags and two 1.25" Diags, they should work?




You'd have to ray trace the idea first. An f5 light cone is tough to get through the extra optical path without significant vignette. This is made worse by the Newtonian design that usually doesn't have the additional back focus to accommodate the extra optical train. You may also have to consider just where you're putting your head/body as you move the binoscope in altitude. The refractor design makes this a lot easier.

Bill's design was made more effective by using the f5.5 objectives rather than f5. IIRC, Bill ray traced f5 vs. f5.5 and the longer ratio definitely worked best regarding vignette in this instance.

Rich


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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Rich V.]
      #6042407 - 08/23/13 08:10 PM

Has any one measured the back focus through the 2" and the 1.25" combo. I have to add about 75mm extension tubes now to reach focus. The scopes were built for full frame astrophotography and the extension is required to view with an eyepiece. I know easy viewing would be limited to a small portion of the sky but the high power view and lack of CA would be nice. The secondaries are 2.14" now.

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GlennLeDrew
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: PowellAstro]
      #6042834 - 08/24/13 01:40 AM

On using a pair of SN-6's for a bino... Look into this.

A pair of Amici prisms mounted to point rearward allow to look in the same direction the instruments point (like having 'bazookas' mounted on each shoulder), provide an even count on reflections so that the image is is not mirror-reversed, and provide an upright image, too! Furthermore, the optical path length through glass moves the focus a bit farther back, thus providing some extra room to install stuff. You might even be able to use 2" format Amicis, which would provide big fields.


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PowellAstro
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #6042849 - 08/24/13 01:57 AM

Where could I purchase or get hold of the Amici Prisms? The two inch and 1.25 diags would fit right on the unit with no other work or making of parts. Do these Amici Prisms come with a way to attach them or would that have to be made?

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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: PowellAstro]
      #6042870 - 08/24/13 02:47 AM

Amicis made into 90 degree diagonals are readily available all over the place. They would fit right in. For the 1.25" size, which can be had for about $30-40 apeice (I think) you may be able to keep the current focusers. For the bigger 2" size, a shorter focuser *may* be required.

With the current focuser racked fully in, how far past its lip does the focus lie?


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PowellAstro
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #6043324 - 08/24/13 10:38 AM

About 75mm out. I had already replaced them with 2 Inch low profile GSO dual speed 10:1 units.

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GlennLeDrew
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: PowellAstro]
      #6043365 - 08/24/13 10:57 AM

That 75mm of back focus will certainly accommodate a 1.25" Amici diagonal. The question now becomes, is there room for head clearance? Your ears require to not press against the tubes while you look straight ahead , with BOTH eyes through two eyepieces. I stress this last because, when checking out things with just a single scope, one can all too easily rotate the head a little so that the ear clears, and not be fully aware of doing it.

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PowellAstro
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #6043387 - 08/24/13 11:12 AM

If I use the 2 and 1.25 diags, they are on top and not between the tubes. I will have to find some info and specs on the different Amici units and see how they could work. I don't have any idea yet what the setup using them would look like.

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GlennLeDrew
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: PowellAstro]
      #6043547 - 08/24/13 12:43 PM

No other diagonals required. Just the Amici diagonal inserted directly into the focuser, turned so it points directly backward, away from the object in view.

For the clearest picture in words, the full optical train is thus: Schmidt corrector, primary mirror, secondary mirror, Amici prism diagonal, eyepiece.

If this were a single scope, in use it would look exactly like you were resting a bazooka on your shoulder, aiming it at your target. The view would be upright and correct, just like a handheld bino. How cool is that?


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ThomasM
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #6043562 - 08/24/13 12:52 PM

Quote:

In the ultra-wide AFoV department, I do use 13mm Ethos eyepieces (100 degree) on my home-made right-angle bino, yielding:
12.7X50, 7.7 degrees
20.8X60, 4.7 degrees

If I obtained the 17mm Ethoi:
9.7X50, 10 degrees (but field curvature would be worse)
15.9X60, 6.2 degrees.





Yes, your homemade UWA binocular looks very impressive, I looked already several times in your gallery.

On the other hand, I think I will go for a commerical binocular, in my case it paid off to built a large binosocpe, but going to such exercise twice is too much for me, at least presently.

After all the comments, I will probably purchaise a Zeiss Dialyt 7x42, it seems to me a good compromise between magnification, aperture, edge sharpness and field of view (8.5 degree FOV).

Thomas


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PowellAstro
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: ThomasM]
      #6043879 - 08/24/13 04:22 PM

@ GlennLeDrew

I see how to get the right eye angles and focus with the 2 and 1.25 inch diags. I don't see how to get these angles with just one diag added to each scope. With the 2 and 1.25 diags the focus would move the eyepieces toward you and away from your eyes, just like a center focus bino. With just the Amici diags, the focus would move up and down not back and forth. I am missing something in what you have said.


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: PowellAstro]
      #6044165 - 08/24/13 08:10 PM

In the scheme I'm outlining it's required to have the main tubes change spacing if an adjustable IPD is desired. Otherwise for a fixed IPD (yours) the two OTAs can be fixed in place (less the small adjustment at, say, the rear end of one for collimation tweaking).

The focusing would be done by sliding the eyepiece in and out of the diagonal. Space permitting, a compact helical focuser could be attached to each Amici diagonal.


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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #6044372 - 08/24/13 11:02 PM

ok, cool. Now I see the setup. Thanks.

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GlennLeDrew
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #6044452 - 08/25/13 12:12 AM

I was less precise than I should have been, and so just to be clear...

The compact helical focuser would be placed between prism diagonal and eyepiece, this being smoother than sliding the eyepiece in and out.

But nothing compels the installation of such focusers, at least initially.


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ThomasM
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Erik Bakker]
      #6052545 - 08/29/13 01:16 PM

Quote:

Kenny,

Some of your past endorsements for your 7x42 Dialyts contributed to me embarking on the same route. Absolutely wonderful experience cruising the Milky Way with my Zeiss FL 7x42's. Tried to find a nice pair of the Dialyt version but did not succeed, so settled on the new Victory FL's after a few months. Delightful binos. Such an involving, bright relaxing view. Unsurpassed for the MilkyWay!




Today my Zeiss Dialyt 7x42 arrived, I got it second hand from Ireland. It is really a very nice binocular, the daylight test was very promising and now I am waiting for a dark nigth. I think it will perfectly complement my 160 mm binoscope.

Thanks a lot for all the helpful comments!

Thomas


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Erik Bakker
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: ThomasM]
      #6052762 - 08/29/13 03:06 PM

Congratulations on a great find Thomas. The Zeiss 7x42's are wonderful, be it the Dialyt or the Victory. The large exit pupil is very demanding on our own pupils, so most people should expect less than pinpoint stars at night. Give yourself some time to get to know your 7x42's with their special qualities and character, you will be richly rewarded!

Of course, you will have to supply some pictures


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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: ThomasM]
      #6052778 - 08/29/13 03:14 PM

Quote:

Today my Zeiss Dialyt 7x42 arrived, I got it second hand from Ireland. It is really a very nice binocular, the daylight test was very promising and now I am waiting for a dark nigth. I think it will perfectly complement my 160 mm binoscope.

Thanks a lot for all the helpful comments!

Thomas




Woot!

Nothing better than finding a good used bino!


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ThomasM
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Erik Bakker]
      #6054572 - 08/30/13 02:50 PM Attachment (19 downloads)

Quote:

Congratulations on a great find Thomas. The Zeiss 7x42's are wonderful, be it the Dialyt or the Victory. The large exit pupil is very demanding on our own pupils, so most people should expect less than pinpoint stars at night. Give yourself some time to get to know your 7x42's with their special qualities and character, you will be richly rewarded!

Of course, you will have to supply some pictures




Erik,

thanks a lot, here is a picture!

Thomas


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Erik Bakker
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: ThomasM]
      #6054612 - 08/30/13 03:14 PM

That is a stunner Thomas! Beautiful bino and a true classic.

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KennyJ
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Erik Bakker]
      #6054895 - 08/30/13 06:36 PM

< Beautiful bino and a true classic.>

Hear, hear!


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