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Equipment Discussions >> Video and Electronically Assisted Astronomy

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jgraham
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Reged: 12/02/04

Loc: Miami Valley Astronomical Soci...
Re: Real-time Observing with a DSLR new [Re: runner70]
      #6056875 - 08/31/13 11:22 PM

I just posted a set of example screen shots. Like any new technique it takes a little getting used to. For example, I startec with video and webcams, moved to using CCDs for several years, now I am using my Canon T2i. A DSLR is a different twist, but I am really enjoying the large, high quality chip in conjunction with the Backyard EOS software.

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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: Real-time Observing with a DSLR new [Re: jgraham]
      #6070850 - 09/09/13 08:52 AM Attachment (16 downloads)

John, since I'm using an unmodified Canon 550D (T2i) I thought it would be interesting to see a comparison between ISO 1600 and ISO6400 on same DSO, something I haven't found on net yet.

I was curious to see how bad will look M27 at ISO 6400.

Below is a single image of M27 at ISO 6400 of 120s. No processing, no crop. I used only in-camera Dark Frame Substraction on Auto, Noise Reduction on Low.


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Moromete
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Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: Real-time Observing with a DSLR new [Re: Moromete]
      #6070854 - 09/09/13 08:55 AM Attachment (16 downloads)

Same image at ISO 1600 of 482s (so 4 times longer than ISO 6400 to gather the same ammount of photons).

No processing, no crop. I used only in-camera Dark Frame Substraction on Auto, Noise Reduction on Low.


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Dragon Man
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 03/07/06

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Re: Real-time Observing with a DSLR new [Re: Moromete]
      #6070919 - 09/09/13 09:49 AM

Micromete,
The first image has better colour balance, but more noise.
Not that a bit of noise matters when doing near-live viewing or broadcasting.

To me, the first image is the most pleasing.


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mattflastro
Vendor - Astrovideo Systems


Reged: 07/31/09

Loc: Brevard County , FL
Re: Real-time Observing with a DSLR new [Re: Moromete]
      #6071028 - 09/09/13 11:00 AM

Quote:

Same image at ISO 1600 of 482s (so 4 times longer than ISO 6400 to gather the same ammount of photons).

No processing, no crop. I used only in-camera Dark Frame Substraction on Auto, Noise Reduction on Low.



if these images are even the smallest size your 550 can produce, they've been either cropped or scaled down to fit the CN size requirements.
Since it appears the image scale is different in each image, they've probably been scaled down to fit CN .
I'd be interested to see a comparison of the original scale images, no scaling down.
Just a corner of each image would suffice.


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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: Real-time Observing with a DSLR new [Re: mattflastro]
      #6071376 - 09/09/13 02:00 PM Attachment (8 downloads)

Quote:

Quote:

Same image at ISO 1600 of 482s (so 4 times longer than ISO 6400 to gather the same ammount of photons).

No processing, no crop. I used only in-camera Dark Frame Substraction on Auto, Noise Reduction on Low.



if these images are even the smallest size your 550 can produce, they've been either cropped or scaled down to fit the CN size requirements.
Since it appears the image scale is different in each image, they've probably been scaled down to fit CN .
I'd be interested to see a comparison of the original scale images, no scaling down.
Just a corner of each image would suffice.




Both images were scaled down in Paint to fit CN.

As you requested Matt, I attached a crop of the image with M27 taken at ISO 1600.


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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: Real-time Observing with a DSLR new [Re: Moromete]
      #6071383 - 09/09/13 02:02 PM Attachment (8 downloads)

Now a crop of the image with M27 taken at ISO 6400.

Please excuse my lack of computer skills.


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mclewis1
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Re: Real-time Observing with a DSLR new [Re: Moromete]
      #6071424 - 09/09/13 02:20 PM

Interesting, aside from the increased amount of noise at 6400 (expected) at 1600 there is more density in the nebula, more color saturation and a very slight increase in the number of stars (somewhat unexpected).

I'd love to understand why.


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mattflastro
Vendor - Astrovideo Systems


Reged: 07/31/09

Loc: Brevard County , FL
Re: Real-time Observing with a DSLR new [Re: mclewis1]
      #6071446 - 09/09/13 02:33 PM

Quote:

Interesting, aside from the increased amount of noise at 6400 (expected) at 1600 there is more density in the nebula, more color saturation and a very slight increase in the number of stars (somewhat unexpected).

I'd love to understand why.



in camera dark subtraction and in camera noise reduction were used.


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jgraham
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Reged: 12/02/04

Loc: Miami Valley Astronomical Soci...
Re: Real-time Observing with a DSLR new [Re: mclewis1]
      #6071455 - 09/09/13 02:37 PM

Very nice! I've become a huge fan of Canon's long exposure noise reduction, it really cleans the images up nicely. I generally try to find a balance between gain and exposure time; a gain of ISO 1600 or lower and exposures of 60 seconds or shorter. Of course having a really fast scope (8" f/4 Schmidt-Newtonian) helps. I can reach magnitude 17ish in a hurry (30 seconds at ISO 800). I'll be doing some work with my 10" SCT at f/6.3 or f/10 in the next week or so and I'm sure I'll be bumping the gain up.

Fun stuff.


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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: Real-time Observing with a DSLR new [Re: jgraham]
      #6071479 - 09/09/13 02:48 PM

Quote:

Very nice! I've become a huge fan of Canon's long exposure noise reduction, it really cleans the images up nicely. I generally try to find a balance between gain and exposure time; a gain of ISO 1600 or lower and exposures of 60 seconds or shorter. Of course having a really fast scope (8" f/4 Schmidt-Newtonian) helps. I can reach magnitude 17ish in a hurry (30 seconds at ISO 800). I'll be doing some work with my 10" SCT at f/6.3 or f/10 in the next week or so and I'm sure I'll be bumping the gain up.

Fun stuff.




To be honest I expected the ISO 6400 image to be worse and full of croma noise but I'm quite pleased with it especially that I don't look at Canon images in full size at such high ISO.

Seeing this I'm just wondering how much better a Canon 6D (FF) or Fujifilm X-E1 will be at ISO 6400 or more for DSOs.

For the sake of comparison, please try to shoot M27 with Canon T2i at ISO 12800 with Dark Frame Substraction ON, Long Exposure Noise Reduction on AUTO and High Iso Noise Reduction on STANDARD/HIGH and post a crop from a single Jpeg image.

Thx.


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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: Real-time Observing with a DSLR new [Re: Moromete]
      #6071500 - 09/09/13 02:57 PM

I forgot to say that I like Canon 550D very much because I use it with MagicLantern which transforms it in a fantastic camera!

I use FPSOverride in video mode for live viewing and I intend to try it when imaging planets in video crop mode at 640x480.

I even succeeded to shoot a few lightnings due to MagicLantern hack!


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mclewis1
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Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
Re: Real-time Observing with a DSLR new [Re: mattflastro]
      #6071502 - 09/09/13 02:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Interesting, aside from the increased amount of noise at 6400 (expected) at 1600 there is more density in the nebula, more color saturation and a very slight increase in the number of stars (somewhat unexpected).

I'd love to understand why.



in camera dark subtraction and in camera noise reduction were used.



What I missed was the 4x longer exposures at 1600 (and I'm the one usually harping about the image details ... )

During the older discussions about using digital non reflex cameras for near live viewing the topic of increased ASA capabilities was often brought up. The images in this thread clearly indicate that there's no free lunch with simply increasing ASA capabilities for increasing sensitivity (nor did anyone suggest otherwise).

Useful sensitivity is much more than the sum of various specifications. A camera should be viewed as a tightly integrated system who's ultimate capabilities are the result of how well a large number of variables are brought together.


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jgraham
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Re: Real-time Observing with a DSLR new [Re: mclewis1]
      #6072113 - 09/09/13 08:58 PM

Tonight is a great example of why camera-assisted observing can be so nice; miserably hot, humid, and the mosquitoes are biting. I set my gear out as quickly as possible and got my fanny back inside. I'm planning on an evening full of planetary nebulae and double stars.

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mattflastro
Vendor - Astrovideo Systems


Reged: 07/31/09

Loc: Brevard County , FL
Re: Real-time Observing with a DSLR new [Re: Moromete]
      #6072476 - 09/10/13 01:14 AM

Quote:

I forgot to say that I like Canon 550D very much because I use it with MagicLantern which transforms it in a fantastic camera!

I use FPSOverride in video mode for live viewing and I intend to try it when imaging planets in video crop mode at 640x480.

I even succeeded to shoot a few lightnings due to MagicLantern hack!



What is the maximum integration time that can be obtained with Magic Lantern? I couldn't find my way thru the TimerA and Timer B explanations with any degree of certainty .


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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: Real-time Observing with a DSLR new [Re: mattflastro]
      #6072540 - 09/10/13 02:25 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I forgot to say that I like Canon 550D very much because I use it with MagicLantern which transforms it in a fantastic camera!

I use FPSOverride in video mode for live viewing and I intend to try it when imaging planets in video crop mode at 640x480.

I even succeeded to shoot a few lightnings due to MagicLantern hack!



What is the maximum integration time that can be obtained with Magic Lantern? I couldn't find my way thru the TimerA and Timer B explanations with any degree of certainty .





The maximum integration time that can be obtained with latest Nightly Build of Magic Lantern is 8 hours in Bulb Timer submenu (under Shoot menu). In order to make it work, you to put the camera in Bulb Mode first and set the Bulb Timer for as long as you want and than half press the shutter release button for a second to start the long exposure.

I don't mess up with any Timer A and Timer B settings. You probably have an older version of this hack.

There is also a good Intervalometer submenu with MagicLantern.

Also there is in Shoot Preferences submenu (under Shoot menu) another subemnu called Post Scripts in which, if you select Align+Enfuse, it will do in camera what DeepSkyStacker does on PC. The only problem it can't save in camera the Enfused/stacked image but it lets you do it on PC with Enfuse software or just see the final result on camera screen. It's a very cool feature which is in fact a HDR mode for free for Canon owners!
I haven't played yet with this option too much but I intend too.

In previous builds I was using the LCDsensor Remote feature to start an exposure without touching the camera at all but by waving my hand in front of LCD sensor of Canon 550D to avoid vibrations. Now it doesn't seem to work with Bulb Timer or I'm doing something wrong.

You can change settings in submenus by pressing Q button on Canon 550D.
You can activate a submenu function by pressing SET button on Canon 550D.

MagicLantern is extremely useful for astrophotography with Canon cameras, so start using it boys and you'll have a more powerfull Canon camera!

By the way, I don't have or used BYEOS. I'm using just free software.

I hope this helps.


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ccs_hello
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Re: Real-time Observing with a DSLR new [Re: Moromete]
      #6072741 - 09/10/13 08:05 AM

Just wish to mention that for later Canon DSLR models, in "normal image capture" mode, analog gain method stops at ISO1600. Beyond that, it's using "digitally multiply by 2" method. On the latter, there is no gain on the S/N but "easier for eye to see".

(I think Magic Lantern firmware bends the rule a little bit allowing "seeing deeper with worse S/N". This approach is the classic viewing "rather see something than nothing at all" philosophy.)

Clear Skies!

ccs_hello


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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: Real-time Observing with a DSLR new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #6072897 - 09/10/13 10:20 AM

Quote:

Just wish to mention that for later Canon DSLR models, in "normal image capture" mode, analog gain method stops at ISO1600. Beyond that, it's using "digitally multiply by 2" method. On the latter, there is no gain on the S/N but "easier for eye to see".

(I think Magic Lantern firmware bends the rule a little bit allowing "seeing deeper with worse S/N". This approach is the classic viewing "rather see something than nothing at all" philosophy.)

Clear Skies!

ccs_hello




I think you are right.

But anyway I find MagicLantern very useful for all kinds of photography, including astro.


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mattflastro
Vendor - Astrovideo Systems


Reged: 07/31/09

Loc: Brevard County , FL
Re: Real-time Observing with a DSLR new [Re: Moromete]
      #6072966 - 09/10/13 10:54 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Just wish to mention that for later Canon DSLR models, in "normal image capture" mode, analog gain method stops at ISO1600. Beyond that, it's using "digitally multiply by 2" method. On the latter, there is no gain on the S/N but "easier for eye to see".

(I think Magic Lantern firmware bends the rule a little bit allowing "seeing deeper with worse S/N". This approach is the classic viewing "rather see something than nothing at all" philosophy.)

Clear Skies!

ccs_hello




I think you are right.






when you use Magiclantern in live video mode, how long is the max frame integration ?
Can it do more than 5 sec frames?
Can it go higher than iso1600 in video mode?


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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: Real-time Observing with a DSLR [Re: mattflastro]
      #6073401 - 09/10/13 03:10 PM Attachment (11 downloads)

Max frame integration is 5s in Live View and ISO goes up to 6400.

There is also a special Magiclantern ISO setting which makes the image even brighter in Live View and there is a Black Level setting too.

I think a Canon 550D in 5s Live View mode with Magiclantern is almost as sensitive a Samsung SCB2000 cctv.

I saw M42 quite nicely in 4s Live View mode with my Canon 550D. See the image below.


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