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Equipment Discussions >> Binoculars

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SMark
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 08/29/11

Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6036634 - 08/20/13 02:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Perhaps you would be so kind as to clarify your comparison further.




The way I read Kenny's post, he was saying that the Swift Kestrel had an wider field of view than the Fujinonsbut no one he knew thought the Swifts were a great binocular.

The point being that a poorly corrected widefield of view is not necessarily an advantage, something that has been asserted by some...

Jon




C'mon guys, you're splitting hairs here. For all practical purposes the Polaris and Kestral 10x50s have the same FOV. The plain fact is that the Polaris is just better (for our purposes, anyway) than any other 10x50 porro available today or yesterday. And the fact that it also has a wide field of view is one of the reasons why it is so well liked. The wide field *feature* of the Polaris 10x50 is very often mentioned right along with its outstanding field corrections.

It's like having your cake and eating it too!

Edited by SMark (08/20/13 06:18 PM)


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Mr. Bill
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Reged: 02/09/05

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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: SMark]
      #6036671 - 08/20/13 02:43 PM

Lets see....

would I rather have a contrasty flat field with pinpoint stars out to 90% of the edge

or...

a fov that looks like Hans Solo going into Hyperdrive to gain a little more fov....hummmm.



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KennyJ
The British Flash
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Reged: 04/27/03

Loc: Lancashire UK
Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #6036684 - 08/20/13 02:49 PM

Stan,

I believe there is no need for me to expand further.

Jon obviously understood what I was trying to say.

Kenny


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hallelujah
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way [Re: SMark]
      #6036940 - 08/20/13 05:15 PM

Mark,

Thank you for hitting the nail on the head.

Stan


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KennyJ
The British Flash
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Reged: 04/27/03

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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: hallelujah]
      #6036952 - 08/20/13 05:25 PM

Stan,

You could just as easily thanked ME for hitting the nail on the head, as Steve(whom you referred to as Mark) essentially said exactly the same thing that I've been saying all along in this thread, which is that any wider areas of field that show stars considerably less sharp than the central field is not really worth having.

Kenny


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Grimnir
super member


Reged: 04/28/10

Loc: London, England.
Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: KennyJ]
      #6036954 - 08/20/13 05:26 PM

Kenny et al,

You're very cheeky comparing expensive binos with smaller fields to cheaper binos with wider fields and claiming that the more expensive binos are superior because of their smaller fields!

The issue is not one of particular models but of a principle:

Consider two otherwise identical binoculars, let's call them 'Standard' and 'Wide'. The sole difference is that 'Wide' has an outer field where 'Standard' has none, they are identical in all other respects.

I prefer 'Wide' to 'Standard' even if the 'Wide' outer field is aberrated.

Don't you?

Graham


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KennyJ
The British Flash
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Reged: 04/27/03

Loc: Lancashire UK
Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Grimnir]
      #6036981 - 08/20/13 05:38 PM

Graham,

For a start, I wouldn't classify my Swift Audubon Kestrel as "cheap" binoculars.

They were priced at over £300 in the mid 1990s.

The second point is I'm not suggesting the Fujinons are "Superior, BECAUSE they have a narrower FOV"

In fact, as Steve implied, the difference between 6.7 and 6.9 degrees TFOV is neither here nor there really.

I only prefer "wide" to "standard" if at least a noticeable portion of that extra field is showing me something beyond AND what I find as easy on the eyes as what can be seen in the "standard".

Kenny


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JustaBoy
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 06/19/12

Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Grimnir]
      #6036986 - 08/20/13 05:42 PM

No - Not me!
-Chuck


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Andresin150
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 08/14/07

Loc: Bogotá - La Calera / Colombia
Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: JustaBoy]
      #6037024 - 08/20/13 06:02 PM

Is there a model besides the SV 8x32 that shows 8°, with actual 8° of pinpoint stars right to the edge?... if they only came up with a 10° version or an 8° 10x40....

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Littlegreenman
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #6037216 - 08/20/13 07:49 PM

Quote:

snip!... Ask 10 people and you'll get at least 9 different recommendations. snip!




I couldn't resist. Often if you ask 10 people you will get
eleven recommendations.

==
But back to basic question. Let's divide binoculars into two classes for viewing of the Milkey Way.
1. small, hand held binoculars; the 7x35, 8x40. Lightweight , show a relatively large patch of sky.
2. large, mounted binoculars, higher magnification, showing a smaller patch of sky.

...and let's add a third class: binoculars that try to do some or all of both of the above.

I like them all, which leads to the conclusion that if you get one binocular you will limit you viewing experience to one type. If you don't have any binoculars, I would recommened you start with something that can be hand held. That way you will probably use them a lot more.

Down the road you can always get another pair!

LGM

This hobby, like Graemlins, can be addictive.


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Rich V.
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Loc: Lake Tahoe area, Nevada, USA
Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Littlegreenman]
      #6037253 - 08/20/13 08:17 PM

Quote:

But back to basic question. Let's divide binoculars into two classes for viewing of the Milkey Way.
1. small, hand held binoculars; the 7x35, 8x40. Lightweight , show a relatively large patch of sky.
2. large, mounted binoculars, higher magnification, showing a smaller patch of sky.

...and let's add a third class: binoculars that try to do some or all of both of the above.




Being that the OP asked about a choice between 7x35s, 8x30s and 6x30s, I stayed away from even mentioning that a LOT of Milky Way viewing enjoyment, at least for me, is at much higher magnifications and smaller FOVs in larger binoculars.

I admit to having relatively dark skies here so the Milky Way is always quite visible; instead of big swaths of unresolved stars/starclouds, I really like the deeper views that 70mm or 100mm binos give. Instead of unresolved stars, I see thousands upon thousands of resolved stars as well as the background glow of many thousands more that are unresolved. Seeing dark nebulae that obscure some of these multitudes of stars is breathtaking at 25x-30x; not so much at 7x, IMO.

To think that only small WF binos would be "best for viewing the Milky Way" is really quite limiting.

I agree with LGM's point that only using one class of bino for MW viewing can certainly limit your viewing experience as a whole.

Some might argue that the best bino for comfortable, stable MW viewing may be a 25x100 binocular telescope...

Rich


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Jon Isaacs
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Grimnir]
      #6037274 - 08/20/13 08:34 PM

Quote:

Kenny et al,

You're very cheeky comparing expensive binos with smaller fields to cheaper binos with wider fields and claiming that the more expensive binos are superior because of their smaller fields!

The issue is not one of particular models but of a principle:

Consider two otherwise identical binoculars, let's call them 'Standard' and 'Wide'. The sole difference is that 'Wide' has an outer field where 'Standard' has none, they are identical in all other respects.

I prefer 'Wide' to 'Standard' even if the 'Wide' outer field is aberrated.

Don't you?

Graham




Graham:

I think Kenny is simply saying that he prefers binoculars that provide a relatively clean outer field of view and will choose binoculars with a narrower field of view that is clean over a pair with a wider field that are noticeably aberrated.

My own standard for a well corrected, well illuminated field of view is 31mm Nagler in my NP-101. I can cast a careful eye anywhere in the field of view and everything will be quite sharp, no field curvature, no astigmatism.

I have not seen binoculars with this level of correction, I am down there in the under $400 class and mostly way below. What I find is that some binoculars manage to be free of distractions and some don't. I carry a pair of 10x50 action extremes in my truck and while they provide reasonable views on-axis, the off-axis views are clearly aberrated and very distracting. I also have a pair of Swift Seawolf 10x50s which have the same nominal 6.5 degree TFoV and while an inspection of the off-axis stars shows them to clearly suffer from significant astigmatism and field curvature, somehow, I find it acceptable.

Jon


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RichD
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/08/07

Loc: Derbyshire, UK
Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6037748 - 08/21/13 05:59 AM

Jon, the Fuji FMT is very close to that level of correction. Maybe not quite up to the level of a Nagler in an NP-101 but very close.

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Jon Isaacs
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: RichD]
      #6037832 - 08/21/13 07:45 AM

Quote:

Jon, the Fuji FMT is very close to that level of correction. Maybe not quite up to the level of a Nagler in an NP-101 but very close.




If it was close to the Nagler in the NP-101 it would also have an 7.8 degree TFoV..

Given the issues with field curvature, astigmatism in such a fast optic as well as the size of the fully illuminated field, it's difficult for me to imagine that one really get that level of correction in a binocular, where a star at the edge looks like a star at the center.

Jon


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steve@37n83.9w
sage


Reged: 01/20/11

Loc: Kentucky
Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6038367 - 08/21/13 01:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Jon, the Fuji FMT is very close to that level of correction. Maybe not quite up to the level of a Nagler in an NP-101 but very close.




If it was close to the Nagler in the NP-101 it would also have an 7.8 degree TFoV..

Given the issues with field curvature, astigmatism in such a fast optic as well as the size of the fully illuminated field, it's difficult for me to imagine that one really get that level of correction in a binocular, where a star at the edge looks like a star at the center.

Jon




Jon

Actually I've found two binoculars where stars are pin point to the very edge, i.e. if it's in the fov it's tack sharp. One is the 7x50 Prostar which is no surprise considering its legendary edge performance and the other is the lesser known 7x50 PIF. I also have several other binoculars that offer great quality view across nearly the full fov but only the two 7x50s mentioned are sharp across the entire fov even the very outer edge.

Steve


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: steve@37n83.9w]
      #6038401 - 08/21/13 01:52 PM

Quote:

Jon

Actually I've found two binoculars where stars are pin point to the very edge, i.e. if it's in the fov it's tack sharp. One is the 7x50 Prostar which is no surprise considering its legendary edge performance and the other is the lesser known 7x50 PIF. I also have several other binoculars that offer great quality view across nearly the full fov but only the two 7x50s mentioned are sharp across the entire fov even the very outer edge.

Steve





What is the criteria for "pinpoint to the edge." What does Rigel or Acturus look like at the field stop?

Jon


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Andresin150
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 08/14/07

Loc: Bogotá - La Calera / Colombia
Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: steve@37n83.9w]
      #6038428 - 08/21/13 02:07 PM

Yes, unfortunately both of those binoculars (I used to have the excellent Prostar) have a somewhat restrictive Afov...

For me, Any binocular should have at least 60° AFov so I begin to enjoy it... Beyond that is a bonus, but the image should be good to the edge or at least near it... I dont find value in a distorted edge....
Imagine the Prostars but with more Afov, and consider that the extra Afov is distorted... that in my opinion will certainly ruin them...


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ThomasM
sage


Reged: 04/19/09

Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Rich V.]
      #6038856 - 08/21/13 06:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

But back to basic question. Let's divide binoculars into two classes for viewing of the Milkey Way.
1. small, hand held binoculars; the 7x35, 8x40. Lightweight , show a relatively large patch of sky.
2. large, mounted binoculars, higher magnification, showing a smaller patch of sky.

...and let's add a third class: binoculars that try to do some or all of both of the above.




Being that the OP asked about a choice between 7x35s, 8x30s and 6x30s, I stayed away from even mentioning that a LOT of Milky Way viewing enjoyment, at least for me, is at much higher magnifications and smaller FOVs in larger binoculars.

I admit to having relatively dark skies here so the Milky Way is always quite visible; instead of big swaths of unresolved stars/starclouds, I really like the deeper views that 70mm or 100mm binos give. Instead of unresolved stars, I see thousands upon thousands of resolved stars as well as the background glow of many thousands more that are unresolved. Seeing dark nebulae that obscure some of these multitudes of stars is breathtaking at 25x-30x; not so much at 7x, IMO.

To think that only small WF binos would be "best for viewing the Milky Way" is really quite limiting.

I agree with LGM's point that only using one class of bino for MW viewing can certainly limit your viewing experience as a whole.

Some might argue that the best bino for comfortable, stable MW viewing may be a 25x100 binocular telescope...

Rich




Thanks a lot for all the interesting and helpful comments and remarks.

Actually, my original post and question was presumably not sufficient precise. I own a homemade 160 mm apochromatic double refractor with 2" eypieces (40 mm Pargagon, 17 mm Ethos and Leica zoom with 1.5 x barlow giving 2.5 degree FOV (with 40 mm Paragon) and up to 160 x magnification) which is my favorite instrument not only for milky way viewing. Then I own a Canon 15x45 IS binocular with image stabilization and a Leica Trinovid 8x20, both I premarily use for watching birds etc.

So, I am mainly looking for a handheld binocular with 6x -8x magnigication, a large FOV and large aperature. A wide angle binocular for viewing the milky way, the overall structure with star and dark clouds from a dark site ( 21.5 mag/arcsec^2) ? The Zeiss Victory 7x42 FL might be a good choice, but since I use my large binocular telescope most of the time spending a lot of money for a binocular I will only use for a few hours the year (for hiking and bird watching the Trinovid 8x20 (only 230 g!)is much more convient.

So, presently my most favorite, affordable candidates are the Nikon 7x35 Action EX, Nikon Action EX 8x40 and the rather old Zeiss Dialyt 7x42. How do they compare? Is the edge sharpness of the Nikon 7x35 inferior than that of the 8x40? Is the performance of the Zeiss Dialyt 7x42 (8.5 degree FOV) close to that of the Victory 7x42 FL or a significant step below closer to that of the Nikon Actions?

Thomas

Edited by ThomasM (08/21/13 06:47 PM)


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KennyJ
The British Flash
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Reged: 04/27/03

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Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: ThomasM]
      #6038937 - 08/21/13 06:46 PM

Thomas,

Having been the once proud owner for ten years of a Zeiss Dialyt BGAT 7x42, and having also used a Zeiss Victory FL 7x42, my opinion is that any superiority in the latter is certainly not related to "edge performance" per se.

None of the Nikon Actions even come close in that regard.

Kenny


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steve@37n83.9w
sage


Reged: 01/20/11

Loc: Kentucky
Re: best binocular for viewing milky way new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6039419 - 08/22/13 12:41 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Jon

Actually I've found two binoculars where stars are pin point to the very edge, i.e. if it's in the fov it's tack sharp. One is the 7x50 Prostar which is no surprise considering its legendary edge performance and the other is the lesser known 7x50 PIF. I also have several other binoculars that offer great quality view across nearly the full fov but only the two 7x50s mentioned are sharp across the entire fov even the very outer edge.

Steve





What is the criteria for "pinpoint to the edge." What does Rigel or Acturus look like at the field stop?

Jon




Quite simply the stars in the outer fov look as good as those in the center. I often purposely observe a particular star on axis and then move it to the outer fov and it still looks the same, no color fringing or spiking.

I just spent a little while tonight in my lounger viewing the around the zenith and checking out Vega (in the 7x50 Prostar) and again just as good in the outer fov as the center. I had no trouble splitting Zeta Lyrae in the very edge of fov either. I sometimes wonder why people have trouble understanding sharp to the edge performance of the 7x50 Prostars (and 7x50 PIF) especially considering their typical 7x50 limited fov.

I'm actually more impressed with some of the binoculars that offer views that are sharp almost to the very edge but with a wider apparent fof such as the 10x50 FMTR-SX and 10x50 PIF.

Steve


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