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Observing >> Deep Sky Observing

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Tony Flanders
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Reged: 05/18/06

Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6052128 - 08/29/13 09:12 AM

Bob,

I think you're working under a triple handicap. First of all, the small field of view of an SCT is ill-suited for recognizing this object -- though just fine for viewing it in detail once you've nabbed it. Second, landing on it via Go To is a problem, because you're arriving blind, as it were. If you had star-hopped to it, you would have a better sense of how it fits into the surroundings.

Finally, although NGC 6960, the arc through 52 Cyg, is much easier to find, it's also much fainter than NGC 6992/6995, the smaller but more intense eastern arc. However, NGC 6992/6995 has no readily identifiable stars or star patterns to tell you where to look.

If it's any comfort, I had a very hard time seeing the Veil -- until I'd seen it. Like so many things, now that I know what it looks like, it's a piece of cake. I can even see it through my 70-mm refractor in the white zone if I use an O III filter.


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REC
Post Laureate
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Reged: 10/20/10

Loc: NC
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #6054014 - 08/30/13 08:58 AM

Well thanks for your comments Tony, always nice to hear from you:)

Ok then, I see what your talking about with the SCT. I'm going to try is again in my new 10" Dob I just got and also in my 80ED at low power with a 2* FOV. I will use my new 2" DGM NPB filter. The only OIII filter I have is a dedicated SCT type, so can't use that except with my LS8.

BTW, with my 40mm EP I get 1* FOV, so if I pan around some, I should be able to see some of it, right?

Also, what about using my 9x63 Bino's, would that work some you think?

Bob


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Tony Flanders
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Reged: 05/18/06

Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6054042 - 08/30/13 09:24 AM

Quote:

BTW, with my 40mm EP I get 1* FOV, so if I pan around some, I should be able to see some of it, right?




Maybe. But panning around isn't a every effective technique for seeing things that are difficult or marginal. It's much better to star-hop to the correct location with a star chart.

Quote:

Also, what about using my 9x63 Bino's, would that work some you think?




Probably not. The brighter arc is indeed visible through binoculars, but it's pretty tough unless your skies are good and dark. The problem is that it's very hard to fit binoculars with filters, and filters are a huge, huge asset for viewing the Veil.


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Ravenous
sage


Reged: 11/14/09

Loc: UK
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6054158 - 08/30/13 10:51 AM

Quote:

Also, what about using my 9x63 Bino's, would that work some you think?




Probably not in the light pollution you describe, I'm afraid. I can make out the brightest part (the small loop) in 8.5x50 binocs, but only if the sky is really dark, and only because I already know exactly what it looks like after using a scope and a filter!

If the sky in my binocs looks "very very" dark grey then the nebula looks merely "very" dark grey. It's that subtle.

The other larger, fainter band (on the opposite side to the smaller loop) is not properly visible in my binocs because the small star that's in the same location outshines it! That's how faint it is...

I think you need to be away from the city, where you can see the milky way really clearly, so dark that you can see the big split around Cygnus with the naked eye. Then you might have a chance with the binocs.


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Bernie Poskus
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Reged: 05/22/10

Loc: Broomfield, Colorado
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6061944 - 09/03/13 11:52 PM

There is no substitute for an OIII filter. I've seen the Veil repeatedly in my old 8"SCT with an OIII filter (admittedly under fairly dark skies). The only times I've seen the Veil without a filter were under really dark skies, good conditions, and with my 16" dob.

Even if you can see something of the Veil in a light-polluted site, you won't see anything close to the true majesty of this object.

Get thee to a Dark Sky Site!


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azure1961p
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Reged: 01/17/09

Loc: USA
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Bernie Poskus]
      #6062197 - 09/04/13 07:04 AM

Well a UHC comes pretty close .

Pete


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starquake
sage


Reged: 02/02/08

Loc: Nádasdladány
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6062208 - 09/04/13 07:11 AM

I've seen the Veil with my 12" dob at a NELM of about 3 magnitudes - near the middle of a pop. 2m city. With OIII. I think the Veil reacts really well to OIII filters, far better than UHC's, although you'll naturally see less and fainter stars. But 3 out of 4 fellow observers (less experienced or newbies) could not see it at the same time, same place, same equipment.

I find that the air pollution also may result in a missing Veil. Sometimes when we're after harvests, I still see 6m stars, but the dust in the air makes subtle details invisible by scattering the light and ruining contrast. The same happened after the Eyjafjallajökull erupted some years ago and volcanic dust spread over Europe in the upper atmosphere.

So if there were harvests in your area lately, it's very likely, that the fine dust grains are also contributing to bad contrast. But that's just my limited experience.


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azure1961p
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Reged: 01/17/09

Loc: USA
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: starquake]
      #6062224 - 09/04/13 07:32 AM

Some folks feel the UHC is actually better than the OIII in revealing structure the OIII misses. To me its a dead heat. Darker sky background with an OIII but marginally. Then again I don't do deepsky under a sky I could read a book with .


Pete


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David Knisely
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Reged: 04/19/04

Loc: southeastern Nebraska
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6062934 - 09/04/13 03:55 PM

Quote:

Some folks feel the UHC is actually better than the OIII in revealing structure the OIII misses. To me its a dead heat. Darker sky background with an OIII but marginally. Then again I don't do deepsky under a sky I could read a book with .


Pete




With a good OIII filter, the difference is clear. It is definitely the filter to use on the Veil. Last night, I had the 14 inch out on the Veil complex under dark skies. While my narrow-band DGM Optics NPB filter (similar to the Lumicon UHC only a bit better in some ways) did well in revealing the object with most of its structure, the Lumicon OIII just provided a better view overall, with higher contrast, notably greater sharpness in the filaments, and a visibly darker sky background. In fact, one night a few years ago, I managed to see the NGC 6992 portion of the Veil using the Lumicon OIII filter in my 10 inch Newtonian at 47x with the full moon in the sky! There was no trace of the object without the OIII filter under those bright conditions. Clear skies to you.


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REC
Post Laureate
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Reged: 10/20/10

Loc: NC
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: David Knisely]
      #6063954 - 09/05/13 08:59 AM

Well after searching for it for 30 min. I finally caught a slight glimpse of it and it was very faint. I kept panning around 52 cgy and found a small sliver next to it. I was not very impressive at all. I was using a 10" Dob with a 28mm SWA for 44x and 1.5*fov and a DGM NPB 2" filter that I just bought.

I would say that the LP in my area was a problem as I could see to much of my surroundings. It is a red zone with a NLM of about 4.5 at zenith. I still think the humidity is still playing a part here.

I have a OIII filter that is just for SCT rear threads and maybe try that in the 8" SCT, but the widest I can get with that is just 1 degree.

Well, I guess I'm going to have to take a drive some night to darker skies?

Bob


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blb
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Reged: 11/25/05

Loc: Piedmont NC
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6063983 - 09/05/13 09:16 AM

Quote:

Well, I guess I'm going to have to take a drive some night to darker skies?



YEP! Thats the way to see it. Light pollution is a real killer when it comes to nebula and galaxies.


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Ravenous
sage


Reged: 11/14/09

Loc: UK
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6064178 - 09/05/13 10:55 AM

Quote:

I kept panning around 52 cgy and found a small sliver next to it. I was not very impressive at all. I was using a 10" Dob with a 28mm SWA for 44x and 1.5*fov and a DGM NPB 2" filter that I just bought.



There are two main parts to the veil - the opposite side to 52 cyg (around 2-3 degrees to the left, where I am!) is smaller but much brighter - basically more condensed. It has a pretty pronounced curl to it. It might be worth looking for that part.

And yes, dark skies will help a lot with this object - but I think a 10" at 44x should give great results.


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Gil V
sage


Reged: 09/09/12

Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Ravenous]
      #6065885 - 09/06/13 10:48 AM

Skies here last night were excellent - at least for Connecticut. I tested my DSC installation, and had a look at the Veil before I broke down the gear. Veil was easy with UHC in my 8" SCT. After seeing it with the filter, it was fairly easy to see without the filter.

It's one of those objects that benefits from multiple observations. I see the Veil almost every time out now (seasonally), and I used to devote entire evenings to finding it.


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REC
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Reged: 10/20/10

Loc: NC
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Gil V]
      #6067649 - 09/07/13 11:38 AM

Really, you bagged it with your SCT and narrow FOV? I was out looking for it in my 8" SCT as low power from a 40mm EP and a nebula filter and could not see it. I panned around 52cyg as I know it was there, but just not visable in my scope.

I'll try it again with a dedicated SCT OIII filter and see if I can see it there. Otherwise have to hunt it down with my 10" Dob at low power....still looking for the NA one too!

BTW, what kind of sky do you have there, I'm in a red zone, so lot's of LP.


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azure1961p
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Reged: 01/17/09

Loc: USA
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6068284 - 09/07/13 06:07 PM

Its hardly a feat for him to see it with a UHC and an 8" sct from a decent Connecticut sky. My impression throughout this thread is the people with trouble are trying from light polluted sky's that are making it too challenging. I wouldn't dream of trying it from my condo which is an orange zone. Forty five minutes away though and a magnitude or more better sky's and its beautiful with an 8" and well structured.

Pete

Edited by azure1961p (09/07/13 06:08 PM)


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bobhen
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/25/05

Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6068348 - 09/07/13 06:46 PM

I live 10 miles from the "center" of Philadelphia, PA with the largest shopping mall on the east cost 2 miles away. Light pollution is horrendous.

I've seen the complete arc of the Veil with my 120 mm refractor and an OIII filter. Just 2 nights ago I viewed the Veil with my 155 mm refractor and an OIII filter and the arc was somewhat easy and showed tonality differences.

Low power, wide field, dry air, and an OIII filter help.

Bob


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Gil V
sage


Reged: 09/09/12

Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: bobhen]
      #6069163 - 09/08/13 09:54 AM

Yeah, CT skies aren't the best, but I do benefit by living in a fairly rural area in a neighborhood with no street lights.

But I can assure you that I did see it with the DX8 a few nights ago. Just barely visible without filter, easy with filter.

When I was less experienced, I would get confused by the western section's curvature. The brightest portion of that curves a little bit in the opposite direction - so I would head off in the wrong direction to find the eastern section!!

I might have mixed up east and west here - the section with the odd curvature is the part surrounding 52 Cygni.


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Fuzzyguy
sage


Reged: 12/21/11

Loc: Colorado/Kansas
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Gil V]
      #6070580 - 09/09/13 01:35 AM

Hey Bob,

Sorry you haven't bagged the Veil yet, but don't give up. I didn't see it the first few times either, and I've got darker skies than you. I've found it's one of those targets that gets easier every time you look, once you know what to look for.

The OIII filter should darken the sky enough to see it with your SCT even with LP. With my 40mm EP which has a FoV of 0.76*, it takes about 2.5 FoVs to see the entire portion around 52 Cyg. Your 2" may be closer to or less than 2 FoVs.

The part of the western veil that comes to a point is north of 52 Cyg and you should be able to see both the point and the star in the same FoV, but you may want to move the star out to the south (move your scope north) so it doesn't affect your night vision. When I do this, the point is pretty close to the center of my 40mm FoV. The nebula "fans" out to the south of 52 Cyg and may be a little harder to see.

I could never find/see the eastern portion until I'd seen the western. When I did see it though, I was surprised at how bright it was and how much detail I could see. It took a little less than 2 FoVs to see all I could detect.

Finally, look for a while and try to keep your viewing eye dark adapted as much as you can. Give it up to 30 minutes if you have the patience and the time, but keep trying.

Good luck!


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Scanning4Comets
Markus
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Reged: 12/26/04

Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Fuzzyguy]
      #6070662 - 09/09/13 04:03 AM

Best thing to do is get away from light pollution. In my yard it's a real stinker. When I get away from the city and gain a magnitude it is way better.

Best view away from the city was last Thursday night with a Lumicon O-III filter and my 30mm ES 82 and 14mm ES 100. I panned around and saw lots of structure in the 14mm as well!


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Erik Bakker
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 08/10/06

Loc: The Netherlands, Europe
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #6070860 - 09/09/13 09:00 AM

Under good skies a few nights ago, I saw all three parts of the Veil in my little Celestron C5. Eyepiece used was a 25mm Ortho, no filters. Awesome!
Skies are the key to observing the Veil, much more so than aperture.


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