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Observing >> Deep Sky Observing

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REC
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Still Can't See the Veil
      #6046662 - 08/26/13 10:04 AM

Well, I just got a new 2" DGM NPB nebula filter and tried to see the Veil nebula with my 8" SCT and still can't see it

I had 52 cgy in the fov, so I know it was there. I moved the scope around some to push the star out of the view, but real sign of it. I was using my 28mm SWA EP. I even tried my older Meade narrowband on a 24mm SWA and no luck there.

The sky was probably 3/5 for transparency, so not too bad and I do have some LP to deal with. Next out I will try it in my 10" DOB...if I can find it?

I know you need dark skies for this, but thought the filter would help a lot to get through the muck?

Bob


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ndelo
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6046674 - 08/26/13 10:15 AM

How much LP are you observing under?

I live in a red-border-of-white LP zone and just barely, barely, barely make it out with filters in an 18" dob.


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Jon_Doh
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: ndelo]
      #6046751 - 08/26/13 10:53 AM

Tried to see it last night in an 8" SCT and could barely make it out.

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curiosidad
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Reged: 06/09/11

Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: ndelo]
      #6046759 - 08/26/13 10:58 AM

Hello,
I can see the Veil Nebula in full (including Pickering triangle) with 10X50 binoculars (very poor quality) with two filters DGM UHC 2 "placed on the front lens, Also the North America Nebula so fantastic, the Pelicano very faint, and all under moderately polluted sky, not black sky!
luck


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aatt
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: curiosidad]
      #6046834 - 08/26/13 11:40 AM

I can see it from an orange zone w/o a filter in my 15"-just barely.With my 6", I need good transparency. With a narrowband filter, I can see it fairly well with the 15". The semi-dark site I go to really helps it pop in both instruments.

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John_G
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: curiosidad]
      #6046835 - 08/26/13 11:40 AM

Last time I was at a Bortle 3 location, I could see both east and west with my 10x50s without filters.

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REC
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: ndelo]
      #6046942 - 08/26/13 12:36 PM

Hi, I live in a red zone. Last night I could just barely make out the constellation Corona which I use as a guide as to how faint I can see. The last star in the "C" is mag.5 and I could just barley see it. It is straight overhead and all of the Hercules keystone. I was looking ay M13 as well last night.

Perhaps I need for it to get a little higher in the sky to try again. I think I will try it again in my 9x63 Bino's and put the filter on the front of one of the lenses? Otherwise I'm going to use my 10" Dob tonight if it stays clear


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Kraus
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6046962 - 08/26/13 12:52 PM


Hmmm...Bob. I've seen the Veil only with an OIII filter. And since the veil is nearly straight up for you and I, light pollution is pretty much unimportant.


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hbanich
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Kraus]
      #6047440 - 08/26/13 05:57 PM

The amount of light pollution can make all the difference in the visibility of low surface brightness objects like the Veil, even when it's at the zenith. An OIII or UHC-type filter will certainly help, but the darkness and transparency of the sky are more important.

For instance, the limiting magnitude in my backyard used to be about 5.0 on a good night, and with a 20 inch f/5 Dob and an OIII filter the Veil was quite dim. At a true dark sky site the Veil was easier to see in an 8 inch f/4 Dob without a filter.

The OP will have a better chance with his 10 inch scope, but his sky conditions will determine what will be visible.


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EJN
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: hbanich]
      #6047579 - 08/26/13 07:35 PM

I routinely see the Veil with an 8" f/5 Newtonian, living at the border
of a red/white zone. But only with an OIII filter, any other filter
and it is invisible.


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AstroTatDad
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: EJN]
      #6048158 - 08/27/13 03:06 AM

Bob did you have any near lights near you? My red zone is not an issues with the Veil it's more of the near by lights. With my light blockers up, something over my head and keeping my eyes dark adapted I'm set. With my Lumicon OIII I need it dark as I can make it. Any near by lighting really messes my eyes up fast and can't see much.

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azure1961p
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: AstroTatDad]
      #6048318 - 08/27/13 08:05 AM

Its got to be light pollution/ transparency issues. My 8" with standard coatings on the mirrors and an OIII or UHC makes the entire Veil visible . Its not a suggestion - its really there. The wisp of nebulosity about 52 Cygni terminates to a sharp point and flutters with mottled intensities. The arc that resembles so many shredded veils through an 18" for example is a very complex affair. It doesn't dhow the shredded veils as defined as an 18" of course but there is no doubt there is a lot of intricate fluttering structure about in a network of lights and darks. My naked eye limiting mag there was 6.2v. I loved the view so much I lost all interest in. 5.5v sky's and absolutely 5v. At 6.2 my sky's certainly weren't the desert but they proved to show most everything you'd expect to see. The brighter sky's though - its like someone drained the contrast out of the nebula.

Try for better sky's and so long as I have 52 in your field with a filter - its a profoundly unforgettable view.

Pete

Edited by azure1961p (08/27/13 08:06 AM)


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REC
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6048457 - 08/27/13 09:35 AM

Yeah, must be the sky conditions holding me up. Last night I could get to 5mag. at zenith, but lower I had a lot of sky glow. I don't know why, but my skies seem to hav more LP than I can remember. I can see things around me when I'm out too easily.

I think the humidity in the air is making the LP and sky glow worse. This probably effects the transparency more I think. I'll try it again in my 10" Dob on 52cyg and cover my head.

Thanks for all your suggestions, you guys are great

Bob


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REC
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6048993 - 08/27/13 02:29 PM

Oh, going through some of my old S&T mag and found in in depth article on viewing the Veil by Alan Whitman. It's a great article and map of the area. It is available from the internet if you search for it.

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Dave MitskyModerator
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6049351 - 08/27/13 05:45 PM

I suggest looking for NGC 6992, the eastern segment, first. It's more prominent than NGC 6960.

Dave Mitsky


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youngamateur42
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Dave Mitsky]
      #6049972 - 08/28/13 01:30 AM

I've seen 6995 (brighter area in (I think) a white zone or worse (dunno but bottom line is that it's very severe), my skies are really bad. I've got good eyes, but it was REALLY faint with my 6" at 39x with Celestron UHC. Believe I or not, I could see it in the 6x30mm finder. I had a clearer night, so that really helped

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REC
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: youngamateur42]
      #6050188 - 08/28/13 08:07 AM

Well, that's very encouraging that you where able to see it in all that LP and with a 6" scope....BTW, had one way back when and it was my first real scope!

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MrJones
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6051145 - 08/28/13 05:47 PM

I can see it most nights with my Z12 and 34mm SWA and often with the C9.25, 34mm SWA and f/6.3 reducer. My OIII filter is a little better than NB nebula filter but they both work and I've seen it a few times in the Z12 with no filter.

It's big - use your lowest magnification EP AND focal reducer with a C8! Even then I'm pretty sure you can only fit about half the broom in the FOV.(?) Once you've seen it, it's easier the next time.


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CelestronDaddy
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6051211 - 08/28/13 06:18 PM

I've seen the Veil before in far dark west Texas. It was with my friends RV-6. I recall it wasn't hard to see and we didn't have any type of filter either. The sky was dark, totally unlike where I am now in an orange zone near Austin Texas. I've tried looking for it in my 6"SCT and I wasn't successful. I've got an O-III on the way so maybe that will help. If not I'll venture out to a darker location and I would imagine I could see it then. Good thread....

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REC
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: MrJones]
      #6052103 - 08/29/13 08:54 AM

Ok, I have a 34mm SWA and I will try that out in my A10" on the next clear night. That will give me 36x and 2* FOV.

Clear skies!

Bob


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Tony Flanders
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6052128 - 08/29/13 09:12 AM

Bob,

I think you're working under a triple handicap. First of all, the small field of view of an SCT is ill-suited for recognizing this object -- though just fine for viewing it in detail once you've nabbed it. Second, landing on it via Go To is a problem, because you're arriving blind, as it were. If you had star-hopped to it, you would have a better sense of how it fits into the surroundings.

Finally, although NGC 6960, the arc through 52 Cyg, is much easier to find, it's also much fainter than NGC 6992/6995, the smaller but more intense eastern arc. However, NGC 6992/6995 has no readily identifiable stars or star patterns to tell you where to look.

If it's any comfort, I had a very hard time seeing the Veil -- until I'd seen it. Like so many things, now that I know what it looks like, it's a piece of cake. I can even see it through my 70-mm refractor in the white zone if I use an O III filter.


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REC
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #6054014 - 08/30/13 08:58 AM

Well thanks for your comments Tony, always nice to hear from you:)

Ok then, I see what your talking about with the SCT. I'm going to try is again in my new 10" Dob I just got and also in my 80ED at low power with a 2* FOV. I will use my new 2" DGM NPB filter. The only OIII filter I have is a dedicated SCT type, so can't use that except with my LS8.

BTW, with my 40mm EP I get 1* FOV, so if I pan around some, I should be able to see some of it, right?

Also, what about using my 9x63 Bino's, would that work some you think?

Bob


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Tony Flanders
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6054042 - 08/30/13 09:24 AM

Quote:

BTW, with my 40mm EP I get 1* FOV, so if I pan around some, I should be able to see some of it, right?




Maybe. But panning around isn't a every effective technique for seeing things that are difficult or marginal. It's much better to star-hop to the correct location with a star chart.

Quote:

Also, what about using my 9x63 Bino's, would that work some you think?




Probably not. The brighter arc is indeed visible through binoculars, but it's pretty tough unless your skies are good and dark. The problem is that it's very hard to fit binoculars with filters, and filters are a huge, huge asset for viewing the Veil.


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Ravenous
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6054158 - 08/30/13 10:51 AM

Quote:

Also, what about using my 9x63 Bino's, would that work some you think?




Probably not in the light pollution you describe, I'm afraid. I can make out the brightest part (the small loop) in 8.5x50 binocs, but only if the sky is really dark, and only because I already know exactly what it looks like after using a scope and a filter!

If the sky in my binocs looks "very very" dark grey then the nebula looks merely "very" dark grey. It's that subtle.

The other larger, fainter band (on the opposite side to the smaller loop) is not properly visible in my binocs because the small star that's in the same location outshines it! That's how faint it is...

I think you need to be away from the city, where you can see the milky way really clearly, so dark that you can see the big split around Cygnus with the naked eye. Then you might have a chance with the binocs.


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Bernie Poskus
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6061944 - 09/03/13 11:52 PM

There is no substitute for an OIII filter. I've seen the Veil repeatedly in my old 8"SCT with an OIII filter (admittedly under fairly dark skies). The only times I've seen the Veil without a filter were under really dark skies, good conditions, and with my 16" dob.

Even if you can see something of the Veil in a light-polluted site, you won't see anything close to the true majesty of this object.

Get thee to a Dark Sky Site!


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azure1961p
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Bernie Poskus]
      #6062197 - 09/04/13 07:04 AM

Well a UHC comes pretty close .

Pete


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starquake
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6062208 - 09/04/13 07:11 AM

I've seen the Veil with my 12" dob at a NELM of about 3 magnitudes - near the middle of a pop. 2m city. With OIII. I think the Veil reacts really well to OIII filters, far better than UHC's, although you'll naturally see less and fainter stars. But 3 out of 4 fellow observers (less experienced or newbies) could not see it at the same time, same place, same equipment.

I find that the air pollution also may result in a missing Veil. Sometimes when we're after harvests, I still see 6m stars, but the dust in the air makes subtle details invisible by scattering the light and ruining contrast. The same happened after the Eyjafjallajökull erupted some years ago and volcanic dust spread over Europe in the upper atmosphere.

So if there were harvests in your area lately, it's very likely, that the fine dust grains are also contributing to bad contrast. But that's just my limited experience.


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azure1961p
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: starquake]
      #6062224 - 09/04/13 07:32 AM

Some folks feel the UHC is actually better than the OIII in revealing structure the OIII misses. To me its a dead heat. Darker sky background with an OIII but marginally. Then again I don't do deepsky under a sky I could read a book with .


Pete


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David Knisely
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6062934 - 09/04/13 03:55 PM

Quote:

Some folks feel the UHC is actually better than the OIII in revealing structure the OIII misses. To me its a dead heat. Darker sky background with an OIII but marginally. Then again I don't do deepsky under a sky I could read a book with .


Pete




With a good OIII filter, the difference is clear. It is definitely the filter to use on the Veil. Last night, I had the 14 inch out on the Veil complex under dark skies. While my narrow-band DGM Optics NPB filter (similar to the Lumicon UHC only a bit better in some ways) did well in revealing the object with most of its structure, the Lumicon OIII just provided a better view overall, with higher contrast, notably greater sharpness in the filaments, and a visibly darker sky background. In fact, one night a few years ago, I managed to see the NGC 6992 portion of the Veil using the Lumicon OIII filter in my 10 inch Newtonian at 47x with the full moon in the sky! There was no trace of the object without the OIII filter under those bright conditions. Clear skies to you.


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REC
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: David Knisely]
      #6063954 - 09/05/13 08:59 AM

Well after searching for it for 30 min. I finally caught a slight glimpse of it and it was very faint. I kept panning around 52 cgy and found a small sliver next to it. I was not very impressive at all. I was using a 10" Dob with a 28mm SWA for 44x and 1.5*fov and a DGM NPB 2" filter that I just bought.

I would say that the LP in my area was a problem as I could see to much of my surroundings. It is a red zone with a NLM of about 4.5 at zenith. I still think the humidity is still playing a part here.

I have a OIII filter that is just for SCT rear threads and maybe try that in the 8" SCT, but the widest I can get with that is just 1 degree.

Well, I guess I'm going to have to take a drive some night to darker skies?

Bob


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blb
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6063983 - 09/05/13 09:16 AM

Quote:

Well, I guess I'm going to have to take a drive some night to darker skies?



YEP! Thats the way to see it. Light pollution is a real killer when it comes to nebula and galaxies.


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Ravenous
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6064178 - 09/05/13 10:55 AM

Quote:

I kept panning around 52 cgy and found a small sliver next to it. I was not very impressive at all. I was using a 10" Dob with a 28mm SWA for 44x and 1.5*fov and a DGM NPB 2" filter that I just bought.



There are two main parts to the veil - the opposite side to 52 cyg (around 2-3 degrees to the left, where I am!) is smaller but much brighter - basically more condensed. It has a pretty pronounced curl to it. It might be worth looking for that part.

And yes, dark skies will help a lot with this object - but I think a 10" at 44x should give great results.


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Gil V
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Reged: 09/09/12

Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Ravenous]
      #6065885 - 09/06/13 10:48 AM

Skies here last night were excellent - at least for Connecticut. I tested my DSC installation, and had a look at the Veil before I broke down the gear. Veil was easy with UHC in my 8" SCT. After seeing it with the filter, it was fairly easy to see without the filter.

It's one of those objects that benefits from multiple observations. I see the Veil almost every time out now (seasonally), and I used to devote entire evenings to finding it.


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REC
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Gil V]
      #6067649 - 09/07/13 11:38 AM

Really, you bagged it with your SCT and narrow FOV? I was out looking for it in my 8" SCT as low power from a 40mm EP and a nebula filter and could not see it. I panned around 52cyg as I know it was there, but just not visable in my scope.

I'll try it again with a dedicated SCT OIII filter and see if I can see it there. Otherwise have to hunt it down with my 10" Dob at low power....still looking for the NA one too!

BTW, what kind of sky do you have there, I'm in a red zone, so lot's of LP.


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azure1961p
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6068284 - 09/07/13 06:07 PM

Its hardly a feat for him to see it with a UHC and an 8" sct from a decent Connecticut sky. My impression throughout this thread is the people with trouble are trying from light polluted sky's that are making it too challenging. I wouldn't dream of trying it from my condo which is an orange zone. Forty five minutes away though and a magnitude or more better sky's and its beautiful with an 8" and well structured.

Pete

Edited by azure1961p (09/07/13 06:08 PM)


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bobhen
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6068348 - 09/07/13 06:46 PM

I live 10 miles from the "center" of Philadelphia, PA with the largest shopping mall on the east cost 2 miles away. Light pollution is horrendous.

I've seen the complete arc of the Veil with my 120 mm refractor and an OIII filter. Just 2 nights ago I viewed the Veil with my 155 mm refractor and an OIII filter and the arc was somewhat easy and showed tonality differences.

Low power, wide field, dry air, and an OIII filter help.

Bob


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Gil V
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Reged: 09/09/12

Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: bobhen]
      #6069163 - 09/08/13 09:54 AM

Yeah, CT skies aren't the best, but I do benefit by living in a fairly rural area in a neighborhood with no street lights.

But I can assure you that I did see it with the DX8 a few nights ago. Just barely visible without filter, easy with filter.

When I was less experienced, I would get confused by the western section's curvature. The brightest portion of that curves a little bit in the opposite direction - so I would head off in the wrong direction to find the eastern section!!

I might have mixed up east and west here - the section with the odd curvature is the part surrounding 52 Cygni.


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Fuzzyguy
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Gil V]
      #6070580 - 09/09/13 01:35 AM

Hey Bob,

Sorry you haven't bagged the Veil yet, but don't give up. I didn't see it the first few times either, and I've got darker skies than you. I've found it's one of those targets that gets easier every time you look, once you know what to look for.

The OIII filter should darken the sky enough to see it with your SCT even with LP. With my 40mm EP which has a FoV of 0.76*, it takes about 2.5 FoVs to see the entire portion around 52 Cyg. Your 2" may be closer to or less than 2 FoVs.

The part of the western veil that comes to a point is north of 52 Cyg and you should be able to see both the point and the star in the same FoV, but you may want to move the star out to the south (move your scope north) so it doesn't affect your night vision. When I do this, the point is pretty close to the center of my 40mm FoV. The nebula "fans" out to the south of 52 Cyg and may be a little harder to see.

I could never find/see the eastern portion until I'd seen the western. When I did see it though, I was surprised at how bright it was and how much detail I could see. It took a little less than 2 FoVs to see all I could detect.

Finally, look for a while and try to keep your viewing eye dark adapted as much as you can. Give it up to 30 minutes if you have the patience and the time, but keep trying.

Good luck!


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Scanning4Comets
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Fuzzyguy]
      #6070662 - 09/09/13 04:03 AM

Best thing to do is get away from light pollution. In my yard it's a real stinker. When I get away from the city and gain a magnitude it is way better.

Best view away from the city was last Thursday night with a Lumicon O-III filter and my 30mm ES 82 and 14mm ES 100. I panned around and saw lots of structure in the 14mm as well!


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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #6070860 - 09/09/13 09:00 AM

Under good skies a few nights ago, I saw all three parts of the Veil in my little Celestron C5. Eyepiece used was a 25mm Ortho, no filters. Awesome!
Skies are the key to observing the Veil, much more so than aperture.


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Bakes
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Loc: Stratford, CT
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6071909 - 09/09/13 07:05 PM

I observe from a white zone backyard with no filters. Using my 10" dob, I can find 52 Cygni and see not even a hint of the Veil.

Using the same scope/eyepiece at Stellafane, the Veil shines like a neon light! A darker sky really makes a difference.


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beatlejuice
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Bakes]
      #6072205 - 09/09/13 10:06 PM

I think it can be a mistake to start your search for the Veil with 52 Cygni in light polluted skies.
Better to start with the brighter part of the Veil which is conveniently located midway between 2.46 mag. Epsilon Cygni and 3.18 mag. Zeta Cygni forming the apex of a very flat triangle about 1.5 degrees south of these 2 stars.
With a telrad or red dot just aim at this position with your widest FOV eyepiece and an 0III filter and there is a good chance it will be there if it is in fact visible from your location. Of course a little nudging of the eyepiece may be necessary but I think that is your best bet.

Eric


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Erik Bakker
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Reged: 08/10/06

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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: beatlejuice]
      #6072720 - 09/10/13 07:40 AM

Good advice Eric!

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REC
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Reged: 10/20/10

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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Erik Bakker]
      #6073363 - 09/10/13 02:49 PM

Ok all, thanks for the encouragement! Yes it would be great to get to a darker site no doubt and I will look around my area that's not to far from my house and find a darker place, probably an Orange zone with no lights at all and would be better than my Red zone with street lights in the area and a light dome from a big city to the east.

I did see hints of it with the 10" Dob and a filter, but Very faint. Cygnus is now getting up at my zenith and on a very good transparent sky I can see magnitude 5...so just have to wait until such a night comes along. Same thing with the NA nebula.

Oh and when such a night comes along, I'm also going to try them with my 80ED with a low power EP and a 4* FOV.

Clear skies to all:)

Bob


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Jon_Doh
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Reged: 09/16/11

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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6074760 - 09/11/13 10:23 AM

Quote:

Really, you bagged it with your SCT and narrow FOV? I was out looking for it in my 8" SCT as low power from a 40mm EP and a nebula filter and could not see it. I panned around 52cyg as I know it was there, but just not visable in my scope.

I'll try it again with a dedicated SCT OIII filter and see if I can see it there. Otherwise have to hunt it down with my 10" Dob at low power....still looking for the NA one too!

BTW, what kind of sky do you have there, I'm in a red zone, so lot's of LP.




I bagged it with my 8" SCT with an OIII filter and 6.3 focal reducer from my driveway on a dark night. It wasn't fully visible, but I was happy to see it.

Edited by Jon_Doh (09/11/13 10:25 AM)


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Kraus
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Reged: 03/10/12

Loc: Georgia.
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Jon_Doh]
      #6080890 - 09/14/13 06:41 PM


Alrighty folks.

My Middle Georgia skies are looking just perfect. Humidity feels low. I'll see the Veil's glory and spend all night staring at it. Nebulae do that to me.

I'll let y'all know.


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Kraus
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Reged: 03/10/12

Loc: Georgia.
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Kraus]
      #6082571 - 09/15/13 06:26 PM


I did as expected. The Veil, east and west loops kept me up till midnight. I didn't see Pickering's Triangle simply because I didn't know it wasn't part of the two loops-it's somewhere in between. Next weekend when the moon is rising later, I'll take a gander.

I let you know.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6083121 - 09/16/13 01:05 AM

Quote:

I did see hints of it with the 10" Dob and a filter, but Very faint




Bob:

My two cents:

- If there is significant light pollution, I find a O-III filter is definitely superior to my Orion Ultra-Block, which is a UHC filter. I think most of the light from the Veil is in the O-III, no need to let in any more light pollution than is necessary.

- I have been getting some good views from my red zone front driveway with my 13.1 F/5.5, I figure its about Mag 4.5 directly overhead. I can see it with Ultrablock but it's definitely better with the O-III. I see details in structure. I have seen it with my 10 inch and 4 inch refractor but this is the best from the city.

- It does really help to have seen it before from dark skies. My dark sky location is on the desert side of the Laguna Mountains in San Diego county. The air is generally very dry and the skies are blue zone and sometimes darker. From that location I can see the Veil in 10x50s without filters, I have viewed it many times with scopes of pretty much every size.

So, when I am searching for it here in the city, I know exactly what I am looking for, that makes it easier, I pickup the nebulosity around 52, I am looking for the arc that signifies the eastern half.

For you, now that you have caught a glimpse of it, you are the way, you will be learning what it looks like and you will be able to recognize it under more trying situations.

And then, one night, you will out there where the skies are dark and you will see it like it lit up with a light bulb.

Jon


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hottr6
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6084510 - 09/16/13 06:49 PM

The Veil is pretty clear in my C80ED with OIII/1.25" 24mm 68-deg. It is pretty big. Sure would be nice to have a 2" OIII so I could fit the whole thing in a single FOV.

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azure1961p
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Bakes]
      #6084516 - 09/16/13 06:55 PM

Quote:

I observe from a white zone backyard with no filters. Using my 10" dob, I can find 52 Cygni and see not even a hint of the Veil.

Using the same scope/eyepiece at Stellafane, the Veil shines like a neon light! A darker sky really makes a difference.




Stratfords a nice little seaside town but that light dome out thre from Bridgeport is huge!!!!

Pete


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REC
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Reged: 10/20/10

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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: hottr6]
      #6085581 - 09/17/13 09:38 AM

I have the same scope and will try it out next week after the moon is gone. I have a 2" NPB filter that I can use in a 2" EP and get 3* FOV, so will try that out.

Bob


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REC
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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6085587 - 09/17/13 09:41 AM

Thanks for the comments Jon. The only OIII filter I have is a SCT type and if I use a 40mm EP I can get 1.2* FOV in it, so will try that on the next good dark, transparent night.

Bob


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Philler
sage


Reged: 07/15/13

Loc: Kansas, USA
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6086056 - 09/17/13 01:48 PM

I've seen the Veil Neb. in my 10" Reflector at about 44x and I was using a Lumicron Deep Sky LP filter from pretty good dark skies. Cygnus was pretty high in the sky about 70 degrees. I don't remember any distinct details other than a series of streaks with a soft white faint glow and it was fairly easy to see.
I am sure some of you are aware of this, but these LP eyepiece filters also enhances views of Jupiter's belts and Saturn.

Edited by Philler (09/17/13 09:36 PM)


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Gil V
sage


Reged: 09/09/12

Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Philler]
      #6086218 - 09/17/13 03:12 PM

With a 3 degree FOV in my Tascoscan, I can see both portions of the Veil with a UHC filter. amazing sight. I've onlu tried that on really clear nights, I don't think I'd bother on marginal evenings.

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Astrodj
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Reged: 08/24/11

Loc: Missouri
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6098558 - 09/24/13 01:57 PM

Bob,

I live in a red zone bordering on white, on the best nights I can reach 5.3 ZLM. I haven't ever tried for the Veil from home before, but this thread made me want to see what I could do. I have seen it well from dark skies with my 5" RFT and UHC (I don't have an OIII). My 10" dob from the dark site showed good structure in the eastern arc and around 52 Cygni, and the central portion was visible as well.

Last night I tried it from home with the 10" dob. ZLM was about 5.1 at best, seeing was just average. I used a 32mm Plossl which provided about a 1.3 degree TOV and the Lumicon UHC. The brightest portion visible was the lower section of the eastern arc. The top section of the eastern arc was easily visible but not a bright as the bottom section. The middle section was faintly visible but sketchy. The western arc at 52 Cygni was only a barely hinted at ghost of nebulosity, if that. Pickering's Triangle between the two loops was undetectable.

Clear Skies!


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Kraus
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/10/12

Loc: Georgia.
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Astrodj]
      #6100709 - 09/25/13 03:46 PM


DJ,

What? No OIII? That's like a sandwich without Hellamn's.

But nebula can shine one night and disappear the next night. So how much does a filter really matter. If I had black skies like in North Korea, I wouldn't need any filters.


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blb
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Reged: 11/25/05

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Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Kraus]
      #6100885 - 09/25/13 05:05 PM

Quote:

...If I had black skies like in North Korea, I wouldn't need any filters.



That's true but how much more would you be able see with filters? Many things can be seem from dark sky sites that can't be seen with light pollution and filters still enhance the view.


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David Knisely
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Reged: 04/19/04

Loc: southeastern Nebraska
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Kraus]
      #6101027 - 09/25/13 06:25 PM

Quote:


DJ,

What? No OIII? That's like a sandwich without Hellamn's.

But nebula can shine one night and disappear the next night. So how much does a filter really matter. If I had black skies like in North Korea, I wouldn't need any filters.




Actually, yes, you would still need a good filter. Even under the darkest skies on Earth, there is still residual skyglow from the airglow emission lines/bands (Oxygen, Sodium, and the Hydroxyl radical) as well as the faint glow from interplanetary dust in the solar system and the even fainter continuum glow from unresolved background stars/galaxies which are too faint to see directly. A filter is needed to get rid of that last little bit of glow and render the view with the maximum contrast possible. At the Nebraska Star Party (Zenith Limiting magnitude 7.5 to 8.0; SQM 21.8 to 22.0), most amateurs continued to use their filters on the Veil, as they provided notably more contrast than without the filters in-place. Clear skies to you.


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Astrodj
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Reged: 08/24/11

Loc: Missouri
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Kraus]
      #6102603 - 09/26/13 04:06 PM

Quote:


DJ,

What? No OIII? That's like a sandwich without Hellamn's.





Ya, someday maybe. I love my old trusty Lumicon UHC from the early 90's, but an OIII would be a nice addition for some objects.

BTW- I also find my UHC to help from a grey zone.


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Kraus
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/10/12

Loc: Georgia.
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Astrodj]
      #6102934 - 09/26/13 07:31 PM


I just received my new 2 inch OIII and UHC filters. Lumicon seems to have improved their formula. My five year old 1.25 inch OIII and UHC filters are tired and just ain't performing. Good thing they thread into my 2" diagonal as I can use either filter with all three Naglers.

Next, a 2" hydrogen-Beta filter. Soon comes the Horse Head.


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Jon_Doh
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/16/11

Loc: On a receiver's back
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Kraus]
      #6103800 - 09/27/13 10:01 AM

I don't think I'd move to North Korea just to get black skies

I use an OIII filter and it really makes a difference. Some nights I can see nebulae just fine without it and others it really makes them pop. It's handy to have one in the bag for those times when it's needed.


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curiosidad
sage


Reged: 06/09/11

Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Jon_Doh]
      #6104284 - 09/27/13 01:48 PM

Hello,
I can see the Veil Nebula with UHC filters pretty well, like North America nebula, but .. I look better with the OIII filters?
A greeting


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Kraus
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/10/12

Loc: Georgia.
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: curiosidad]
      #6105464 - 09/28/13 08:25 AM


Oh my folks. My Georgia skies even let in the Milky Way. Not real bright but it was there.

And the Veil once again, took all my attention. An OIII in my 31mm NAgler, I started at the north end of the the finger, slew south, east then back up north to the top edge of the east loop.

And Pickering's Triangle showed itself.

I shall assign myself as Keeper of the Veil. You may direct your questions to me.


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TechPan6415
sage
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Reged: 07/29/12

Loc: Aspen, Co
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Kraus]
      #6113462 - 10/02/13 04:12 PM

Saw it last night easily with my little 5" F5 with a ES 24mm 68 degree and a Lumicon O-III filter, but I have insanely dark and often very transparent, high elevation skies.

So needless to say when I plugged my ES 25mm 100 degree EP in my 16" 4.5 scope with my 2" O-III filter....it looked like a freaking photograph, my wife and I both about flipped, the detail and nuance of it was breathtaking.

It's all about dark skies for me, it makes all the difference in the world.


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Kraus
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Reged: 03/10/12

Loc: Georgia.
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: TechPan6415]
      #6113727 - 10/02/13 06:31 PM


Picture perfect is everyone's desire. You're making many folks envious, except me. I'm seething. Good job!

I aim to be up at 3:00a.m. to spy the Horse Head nebula. Are you going to out do me...again?


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Philler
sage


Reged: 07/15/13

Loc: Kansas, USA
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Kraus]
      #6176316 - 11/04/13 09:24 PM

Saw the Veil Neb. the other night at my club's blue site in 8 x 42 binos., just two faint streaks. But in my 10" scope at 47X plus neb. filter, Veil is impressive. But when I go over to the the NA and Pelican all I have ever been able to get is faint puffs. Never been able to make out the Gulf of Mexico in NA in either scope or binoculars.

Edited by Philler (11/04/13 09:32 PM)


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Kraus
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Reged: 03/10/12

Loc: Georgia.
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Philler]
      #6176814 - 11/05/13 05:50 AM


Have you caught your breath yet Philler? The Veil does that to folks.

The North America nebula is quite the task. I zero in on NGC-6997, an open cluster as my starting point. I steer southwards to a little knot with three stars in a short line. According to pictures, it's the gulf.

Like many, I wish I had much, much, much better skies.


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Philler
sage


Reged: 07/15/13

Loc: Kansas, USA
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Kraus]
      #6178403 - 11/05/13 11:31 PM

Quote:


Have you caught your breath yet Philler? The Veil does that to folks.

The North America nebula is quite the task. I zero in on NGC-6997, an open cluster as my starting point. I steer southwards to a little knot with three stars in a short line. According to pictures, it's the gulf.

Like many, I wish I had much, much, much better skies. [/quote




The first time I saw the Veil Neb. almost 20 years ago was when my jaw almost dropped. I used my 10 in. at low power with a neb filter. I spent enough time enjoying it that it will always be fixed in my mind, but I probably should have at least drawn a picture of it.
I'll keep on working on the NA neb.

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jrbarnett
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Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6180240 - 11/07/13 12:19 AM

One word.

"OIII"

LPRs and UHCs don't even come close on this target, IMO.

- Jim


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nicknacknock
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Reged: 02/20/12

Loc: In a galaxy far far away...
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6180447 - 11/07/13 07:32 AM

I guess I shouldn't complain. 4 spots all within a 50 minute drive with SQM readings between 21.2 - 21.5.

Made short work of the Veil, North American and Pelican, California and Heart and Soul Nebulae 10 nights ago.

OK, California and Heart and Soul were there but they were faint targets. But still, it was with a 80mm refractor...

I used O III and Hb filters, Nagler 31mm and my Stellarvue SV80ST.

Veil was easily visible without a filter. But detail just pops out once you add that O III in the mix.


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Sarkikos
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Reged: 12/18/07

Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: REC]
      #6184193 - 11/09/13 08:23 AM

Quote:

Hi, I live in a red zone. Last night I could just barely make out the constellation Corona which I use as a guide as to how faint I can see. The last star in the "C" is mag.5 and I could just barley see it. It is straight overhead and all of the Hercules keystone. I was looking ay M13 as well last night.

Perhaps I need for it to get a little higher in the sky to try again. I think I will try it again in my 9x63 Bino's and put the filter on the front of one of the lenses? Otherwise I'm going to use my 10" Dob tonight if it stays clear




Your best bet is to find a darker site. I live in a red zone. I travel 50 miles to a yellow zone to observe. It's the nearest site where I can see many, many more objects than I could ever see if I stayed home. I'd rather travel an hour to a yellow zone, than six hours to a gray zone!

The Veil is very easy with an OIII filter in a yellow zone, whether I'm using a 3", 6" or 10" telescope.

Mike


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Sarkikos
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Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
Re: Still Can't See the Veil new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6184204 - 11/09/13 08:34 AM

I think my dark site might be between a yellow zone and green zone, because another observer with an SQM meter got readings of a little over 21.

Mike


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