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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: The Absence is Blinding new [Re: Jarad]
      #6043519 - 08/24/13 12:28 PM

It's really foolish to attempt to use biological evolution as a metaphor for social structure. There's nothing in biological evolution that predicts the design of human cultures or social workings.

What our biology gives us is a capacity for empathy, a drive to work collaboratively, a sense of fairness, the ability to learn language, and creative imaginations. Everything beyond that is culture, and is as ephemeral as Valley Girl hairstyles.

Justice or injustice is not imposed by our biology. It is imposed by our collective minds, and can be corrected as surely as it was imposed.


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GregLee1
professor emeritus


Reged: 07/21/13

Loc: Waimanalo, HI
Re: The Absence is Blinding new [Re: dickbill]
      #6043596 - 08/24/13 01:12 PM

Quote:

Darwinism (Capitalist England): you are a 14 year old working in horrible conditions, with no future in a coil mine in Victorian England. It's because you are of low status, bad genes, bad luck, and there is nothing you can do about it, for yourself or your children, unless God(and God didn't show much goodwill for yourself, so...), or Chance, decide otherwise. It sounds pretty much like a curse to me.




Whether these ideas about predestination have been opposed by the church depends on what church you mean. Some sort of predestination is part of both Lutheran and Calvinist doctrine, for instance.


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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: The Absence is Blinding new [Re: Jarad]
      #6043897 - 08/24/13 04:33 PM

Quote:

That's a bit of a stretch. Darwinism says you get the genes you are dealt, it doesn't say that you can't improve your lot in life




True, but if the improvement is lost in the 'casino of chances' at the next generation, it is less encouraging than if your efforts are not vain.

Quote:

Two twins with identical genes can still develop very differently. Just because lifting weights won't give your offspring better genes for strength doesn't mean it won't improve your strength. Same for exercising your cardio system and your brain, for that matter




yes

Quote:

The bigger issue with the Lamarckian version of changing your gametes is that there is no simple way to know what changes to make. Let's say you live in an environment where being stronger would be an advantage. What genes do you change? There is no simple switch that says "change this base to A for more strength or T for less strength". There is no way for your gametes to know what changes to make to match the environmental need.




yes, but exactly as Darwin didn't know about DNA, Lamarck knew even less about RNA, and somehow, Lamarck theory would apply more to the RNA world.
Since we know now more than Lamarck, we can imagine a completely putative cellular process that is compatible with his theory AND with our present knowledge of biology.
So here is one:
Environmental factors that would stimulate gene a in organ A, and downregulate gene b in organ B, would produce the corresponding RNAs a' and b' (be it sense, antisense or processed as micros RNA for the purpose of regulation), from both genes in their respective organs. Now if that cell in organ A is a stem cell that could travel to the testes and redifferentiate to produce sperms, providing that cell has kept the RNA memory (a') of its previous life in organ A, we can imagine the RNA a' can then interfere with the DNA replication of gene a during meiosis. And similarly, another stem cell from organ B moves to the testes, where it produces sperms which recombinate heavily in gene b.
If this takes place in a population, the result would be male individuals producing sperms carrying a much higher numbers of allelic variants for the organ A and B.
And just that would incredibly speed up Evolution.
We can call that 'molecular biology fiction' if you want.
But that's the best I can do to translate Lamarck in modern terms.

Also, I was mentioning the speeding effect, it's possibly once reason that S. J. Gould was not ferociously against Lamarckism. Gould needed this acceleration in Evolution for short burst period.
Darwinism, in the other hand, explains 'accelerated' evolution by increased environmental selective pressure, which means that the number of mutation available is never the limiting factor. I never seen the proof of that and it sounds weird given that the primary role of DNA is still to transmit the information INTACT.

Quote:

In the example of exercise, your body has a signalling system that detects what is being used, and up-regulates whatever is used. That's much more flexible than a hard-coded system for "stronger". What happens if your children end up living though a famine, where resting and conserving energy is the better strategy? If they get hard-coded to build lots of muscle despite not exercising themselves, they will starve to death. With an adjustable system, they can respond to the change in the environment.




Good point. I think that's the drawback of Lamarckism. It would maybe speedup evolution too much and lead to an overspecialization very quickly that could be counterproductive when the conditions change. I don't know if Lamarck thought about that.

Quote:

Jarad



thanks for your constructive remarks.


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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: The Absence is Blinding new [Re: dickbill]
      #6043926 - 08/24/13 04:55 PM

Quote:



Now if that cell in organ A is a stem cell that could travel to the testes and redifferentiate to produce sperms, providing that cell has kept the RNA memory (a') of its previous life in organ A, we can imagine the RNA a' can then interfere with the DNA replication of gene a during meiosis. And similarly, another stem cell from organ B moves to the testes, where it produces sperms which recombinate heavily in gene b.





I don't think it works that way. Stem cells don't migrate from other mature organs to the testes to produce sperm or to change the properties of germ-cell DNA during meiosis. (Even if it did, it would imply that only males can be Lamarkian ancestors, since females manufacture all their egg cells before they are born.)

There's also no evidence that I know of that even proposes that acquired behaviors affect the chemistry of stem cells in any way, unless it might be from exposure to carcinogens.

I don't see the utility in trying to imagine fanciful and unlikely scenarios that would somehow explain the occurrence of something that isn't happening in the first place.


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EJN
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 11/01/05

Loc: 53 miles west of Venus
Re: The Absence is Blinding new [Re: llanitedave]
      #6044009 - 08/24/13 05:54 PM

How did this thread get from aliens blowing up stars to
Darwin, DNA, & evolution?


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Otto Piechowski
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/20/05

Loc: Lexington, KY
Re: The Absence is Blinding new [Re: EJN]
      #6044197 - 08/24/13 08:43 PM

It has to do with chem trails.

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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: The Absence is Blinding new [Re: EJN]
      #6044234 - 08/24/13 09:04 PM

Quote:

How did this thread get from aliens blowing up stars to
Darwin, DNA, & evolution?




That's why I love science!



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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: The Absence is Blinding new [Re: llanitedave]
      #6044895 - 08/25/13 10:09 AM

You just had to follow.
Who can tell me here who we came to talk about evolution?


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scopethis
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/30/08

Loc: Kingman, Ks
Re: The Absence is Blinding new [Re: dickbill]
      #6045376 - 08/25/13 03:01 PM

Inherit the Wind..

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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: The Absence is Blinding new [Re: dickbill]
      #6046022 - 08/25/13 09:28 PM

Quote:

You just had to follow.
Who can tell me here who we came to talk about evolution?




What?


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Rick Woods
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: The Absence is Blinding new [Re: llanitedave]
      #6046125 - 08/25/13 10:28 PM

Quote:

Quote:

You just had to follow.
Who can tell me here who we came to talk about evolution?




What?




Certainly not me.


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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: The Absence is Blinding new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #6046640 - 08/26/13 09:52 AM

ehhhh

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Jarad
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 04/28/03

Loc: Atlanta, GA
Re: The Absence is Blinding new [Re: dickbill]
      #6046837 - 08/26/13 11:41 AM

The conversation just sort of evolved that way...



Jarad


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Otto Piechowski
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/20/05

Loc: Lexington, KY
Re: The Absence is Blinding [Re: Jarad]
      #6046979 - 08/26/13 01:03 PM

cute pun

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GregLee1
professor emeritus


Reged: 07/21/13

Loc: Waimanalo, HI
Re: The Absence is Blinding new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #6047263 - 08/26/13 04:05 PM

As our abilities to observe the universe advance, the chances of our finding other civilizations unfortunately do not increase, since we see distant realms only at earlier times, before there was time for our remote kindred intelligences to learn to engineer supernovas or whatever. So even if we are sure they are there, we will never actually observe them. It's a pity.

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ColoHank
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 06/07/07

Loc: western Colorado
Re: The Absence is Blinding new [Re: GregLee1]
      #6047334 - 08/26/13 04:59 PM

Quote:


As our abilities to observe the universe advance, the chances of our finding other civilizations unfortunately do not increase, since we see distant realms only at earlier times, before there was time for our remote kindred intelligences to learn to engineer supernovas or whatever. So even if we are sure they are there, we will never actually observe them. It's a pity.






Engineer a supernova? Engineer a supernova? That would be quite a feat, if possible. Except that it isn't.

No amount of enthusiasm for or speculation about such things can trump reality.


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Jarad
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 04/28/03

Loc: Atlanta, GA
Re: The Absence is Blinding new [Re: ColoHank]
      #6047413 - 08/26/13 05:45 PM

It's easy.

Step 1 - Spot a large star, at least 10 solar masses.

Step 2 - Wait a few million years.

Step 3 - Profit!

Jarad


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GregLee1
professor emeritus


Reged: 07/21/13

Loc: Waimanalo, HI
Re: The Absence is Blinding new [Re: ColoHank]
      #6047489 - 08/26/13 06:31 PM

Quote:

Engineer a supernova? Engineer a supernova? That would be quite a feat, if possible. Except that it isn't.



That's beside the point. If it's not possible, that is just another reason that we will never observe other civilizations.


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Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: The Absence is Blinding new [Re: Jarad]
      #6047530 - 08/26/13 06:55 PM

Step A: Invent a power source that can move a star at near light speed.

Step 2: build another one.

Step III: Collide 2 Stars at 0.9999999999999999999999999999c

Step D: OOOOOOHHHHH!!!!!


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scopethis
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/30/08

Loc: Kingman, Ks
Re: The Absence is Blinding new [Re: Mister T]
      #6049231 - 08/27/13 04:30 PM

I once had a Nova in my garage....

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