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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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Seanem44
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 09/22/11

Loc: Woodbridge, VA
Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX?
      #6048262 - 08/27/13 06:55 AM

I have a decision coming up soon. I need a mate for my AT65EDQ in the form of a mount. I have posted questions about the AVX vs. the ZEQ25. They seem pretty evenly matched. Now I have a different question.

The CG5s are at a very very enticing price. Am I missing out on much if I take one of those over the AVX (or ZEQ)? I have seen spectacular results with the CG5.

The bottom line is I am a noob in imaging. Well, not a complete noob. I do widefield milky way, have gone as far as I can, and am moving on up. Does the AVX offer anything to a noob in DSO imaging that the CG5 will not that is make or break or will significantly help my learning curve?

Thanks.


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orlyandico
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Reged: 08/10/09

Loc: Singapore
Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: Seanem44]
      #6048323 - 08/27/13 08:07 AM

AVX. Because of integer gearbox and permanent PEC.

ZEQ25 doesn't have permanent PEC.

For these reasons, for imaging I'd spend the extra bucks for the AVX unless weight was the main priority in which case the ZEQ25 would be my choice.


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Seanem44
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 09/22/11

Loc: Woodbridge, VA
Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6048335 - 08/27/13 08:18 AM

Weight is not an issue at all. I'm 32 and in relatively good shape.

I also like the 2 inch legs over the ZEQ which charges more.

I guess I will have to wait a bit, as funds are available yet and the AVX goes back up to full price with the sale ending at the end of August.

Thanks for the insight though. I am 80% leaning towards the AVX right now. Hopefully some more of those one-off issues don't crop up on this forum.


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A. Viegas
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Reged: 03/05/12

Loc: New York City/ CT
Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: Seanem44]
      #6048630 - 08/27/13 11:22 AM

Sean if you are going to use it for your small refractor I think the CG5 will be fine. I used to own one and using it with my C8 and auto guiding I easily could get 2-3 min exposures. Using just my C80ED I could go almost 60s with no auto guiding and passable polar alignment. If I auto guided with the small refractor I bet I probably could get 5 mins....

I moved up to the cgEM for the weight... But I liked how lightweight and easy to move the CG5 was. There are decent deals on this used... I sol mine for $450. I think around that price you can find a decent one... I can not argue that it's better than the AvX but I don't think the AVX is 200% better either...

Just my 2c

Al


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frito
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/05/12

Loc: Fremont, CA
Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: A. Viegas]
      #6048959 - 08/27/13 02:16 PM

i get 2 minute unguided exposures at very high sucess rate with my WO 66SD (388mm fl) on my CG-5 just using the all star polar alignment. for that scope it will work fine. the AVX is a better mount but if you compare ~400 for a used CG-5 vs 700-800 for a new AVX if i was spending that much i'd go for a used Sirius or Atlas class mount, something that is better than the AVX and costs around the same used as the AVX does new.

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dragonslayer1
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 02/25/12

Loc: SLC, UT
Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: frito]
      #6049074 - 08/27/13 03:18 PM

I am using a CG-5 ASSGT with a C9.25 and video A/P. Is a lot of weight but am happy. Use it unguided and eye ball polar align. Kasey

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Madratter
Post Laureate


Reged: 01/14/13

Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: dragonslayer1]
      #6049377 - 08/27/13 06:05 PM

For AP, if you are never going to upgrade that AT65EDQ then the CG-5 is adequate. However, if you are going to get into anything with longer focal lengths down the road, I would hold out for at least something as capable as the AVX or ZEQ25.

Now for visual, the CG-5 is good even with a C8 on it. I did AP with a C8 on my CG-5 at f/6.3, but it was an exercise in frustration.


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cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/26/12

Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: Madratter]
      #6049399 - 08/27/13 06:17 PM

I find the AVX much easier to set up for guiding and imaging than the CG5.

People have been saying that they would like things such as RTC, integer gears and PEC added to the CG5 and saying they would pay for this.

Now they have the option to have these things they go for the CG5 because it's cheaper.

Chris


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orlyandico
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Reged: 08/10/09

Loc: Singapore
Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: cn register 5]
      #6049490 - 08/27/13 07:20 PM

Well you know what Roland says...

The three most important things for astrophotography are the mount, the mount, and the mount.

I would disagree about used Sirius or Atlas vs AVX. The Celestron mounts have better software. Also there is the weight. You say its not an issue but weight will weigh you down (pun intended) and can be demotivating.


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Raginar
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Reged: 10/19/10

Loc: Rapid CIty, SD
Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6049582 - 08/27/13 08:11 PM

If you want to dip your feet in, a CG5 gives you everything you could ever want as long as you don't try to stack a 12" SCT on it.

Frankly, the other mounts close really offer very little reason to get them. The late model cg5 is a beast. There is nothing on an AVX that isn't on a CG5.


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Bill McNeal
sage


Reged: 10/07/07

Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: Raginar]
      #6050729 - 08/28/13 01:38 PM

Also remember the AVX is rated 5 lbs. less in payload capacity than the CG-5, 30 vs. 35 lbs. Could be a dealbreaker depending on your setup.

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FacEngRet
journeyman


Reged: 02/27/13

Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: Bill McNeal]
      #6050753 - 08/28/13 01:56 PM

I have both mounts and have used both with 6", 8" and 11" SCT. My experience tells me that the 30 pound weight rating on the AVX is a conservative rating and the 35 pound rating on the CG5 is optimistic.

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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: FacEngRet]
      #6051063 - 08/28/13 04:58 PM

Quote:

I have both mounts and have used both with 6", 8" and 11" SCT. My experience tells me that the 30 pound weight rating on the AVX is a conservative rating and the 35 pound rating on the CG5 is optimistic.




Is AVX much better than CG5 for AP and GOTOs with a C8/ C11 at F6 on it or not really? If yes, why?


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Seanem44
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 09/22/11

Loc: Woodbridge, VA
Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: Moromete]
      #6051506 - 08/28/13 09:10 PM

I plan on using the AT65 with a guider. That's it. At this point in my life, hard core AP will have to wait a while. Ill stick with the CPC 925 for viewing. No more upgrades for at least a decade after I get the mount. No new scopes for that same time.

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Ranger Tim
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 03/25/08

Loc: SE Idaho, USA
Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: Seanem44]
      #6051632 - 08/28/13 10:45 PM

"No more upgrades for at least a decade after I get the mount."

This is heresy!


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bunyon
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 10/23/10

Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: Ranger Tim]
      #6051642 - 08/28/13 10:53 PM

I sold a CG5 to get the AVX for imaging with a C8 and it helped a lot. With that said, the CG5 did work and with a 80mm refractor was more than adequate. The capacity of the AVX is higher than the CG5 - I don't care what the published specs say. But it's close and your scope and guider are well within limits. The only downside of the Cg5 is that, on a lot of thme (and mine), there was a ton of backlash in Declination which inhibited guiding in Dec. But with good polar alignment and guiding in RA (essentially PEC), I got up to 10 minute exposures at 400mm.

If money were no object, I'd go with the AVX for sure. But you say money is an object, and it most certainly is. From what you've said, go with the CG5 on sale and enjoy it.



-Oklahoma State, class of 1993


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orlyandico
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Reged: 08/10/09

Loc: Singapore
Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: bunyon]
      #6051703 - 08/28/13 11:36 PM

But... 10 years of no upgrades argues for the best you can afford now...

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frito
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/05/12

Loc: Fremont, CA
Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: bunyon]
      #6051800 - 08/29/13 01:30 AM

Quote:

I sold a CG5 to get the AVX for imaging with a C8 and it helped a lot. With that said, the CG5 did work and with a 80mm refractor was more than adequate. The capacity of the AVX is higher than the CG5 - I don't care what the published specs say. But it's close and your scope and guider are well within limits. The only downside of the Cg5 is that, on a lot of thme (and mine), there was a ton of backlash in Declination which inhibited guiding in Dec. But with good polar alignment and guiding in RA (essentially PEC), I got up to 10 minute exposures at 400mm.

If money were no object, I'd go with the AVX for sure. But you say money is an object, and it most certainly is. From what you've said, go with the CG5 on sale and enjoy it.



-Oklahoma State, class of 1993




It's not exactly hard to adjust the mechanical backlash on the CG-5, i've adjusted the backlash on my club's Sirius mount and my CG-5 the Sirius had much worse backlash and was harder to adjust, the CG-5 was pretty easy to adjust. there are guides out there on the net but if you need help or have a question feel free to ask. i would not dare say it has zero backlash, thats impossible esp on a design like this but the vast majority of my backlash on my CG-5 is from the motor's interal gearboxes post adjusting mine.


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frito
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/05/12

Loc: Fremont, CA
Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: Seanem44]
      #6051803 - 08/29/13 01:33 AM

Quote:

I plan on using the AT65 with a guider. That's it. At this point in my life, hard core AP will have to wait a while. Ill stick with the CPC 925 for viewing. No more upgrades for at least a decade after I get the mount. No new scopes for that same time.




if that is all you plan to use the mount for for now the CG-5 will suffice, a 9-1/4" SCT visual is starting to push the mount but it will handle it and for AP you can easily get by on it with your AT65 with or without a guider, in fact i'd recommend starting off without one because it will make setup more simple with setup and software stuff until you get some time in to learn your setup.


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cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/26/12

Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: Raginar]
      #6051901 - 08/29/13 03:49 AM

Quote:

If you want to dip your feet in, a CG5 gives you everything you could ever want as long as you don't try to stack a 12" SCT on it.

Frankly, the other mounts close really offer very little reason to get them. The late model cg5 is a beast. There is nothing on an AVX that isn't on a CG5.




Not true.

the AVX has a RTC, PEC, integer gearboxes and drive software that avoids the cogging issue. It's also more sturdy.

Chris


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RTLR 12
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Reged: 12/04/08

Loc: The Great Pacific NorthWest
Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: cn register 5]
      #6051915 - 08/29/13 04:15 AM

Quote:

integer gearboxes and drive software that avoids the cogging issue




Chris,

It's 'integer gears' not gearboxes. The integer gears only matter with PEC, so PEC and integer gears go together. Also, I wasn't aware of a cogging problem on the CG-5. These are only issues if you are doing AP. I do like the RTC thing though. I use my CG-5's for visual mainly, but I much prefer to use them over my CGEM's. I'm just wondering if I need to get an AVX or not.

I know you have both mounts, but why do you say the AVX is sturdier than the CG-5? I know the AVX weighs about 5 lbs more, but they both use the same tripod (Similar).

Stan


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cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/26/12

Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: RTLR 12]
      #6051929 - 08/29/13 04:40 AM

Quote:

I know you have both mounts, but why do you say the AVX is sturdier than the CG-5? I know the AVX weighs about 5 lbs more, but they both use the same tripod (Similar).



Experience...
Looking at the two mounts side by side.
Using them both. I find the AVX much easier to set up for guiding and imaging. It also feels more sturdy, both in operation and set up.

I have, to some extent, put my money where my mouth is and bought a RC6 for the AVX. By the time I've added a guide scope, cameras, focuser and filterwheel that comes to around 25 lbs, more if I add a rotator. The AVX handles that well. I haven't tried the CG5 with it but don't think it would.

There's not been much imaging this summer, I ended up spending the whole time playing with the StarSense.

Chris


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orlyandico
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Reged: 08/10/09

Loc: Singapore
Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: cn register 5]
      #6051940 - 08/29/13 05:04 AM

There are stories out there that the CG-5 also suffers cogging.

But see - the thing is cogging looks exactly like stiction. And, thanks to the lack of ball bearings on the DEC axis, the CG-5 generally has a good dosage of stiction. Which would mask the cogging...

But I digress.

If I had only one mount for 10 years, and the choice was the CG-5 and AVX, the latter would be a no-brainer.


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Seanem44
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 09/22/11

Loc: Woodbridge, VA
Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6051948 - 08/29/13 05:20 AM

We'll see what I can cough up. I still have some toys I can sell. Most likely the astrotrac. Just need to hope the wife or I do not get furloughed in the coming fiscal year.

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RTLR 12
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Reged: 12/04/08

Loc: The Great Pacific NorthWest
Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: Seanem44]
      #6052083 - 08/29/13 08:31 AM

Chris,

Thanks for the answer. I guess I'll just have to jump in and get an AVX and see for myself. I'm guessing the extra stability must be due to the extra weight. Why is the AVX easier to set up?

Orlando,

Don't both the AVX and the CG-5 share the same "no bearings' design. If I remember correctly, I think I saw a disassembled AVX axis shafts looking exactly like a CG-5.

Stan


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frito
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/05/12

Loc: Fremont, CA
Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6053704 - 08/30/13 01:24 AM

Quote:

There are stories out there that the CG-5 also suffers cogging.

But see - the thing is cogging looks exactly like stiction. And, thanks to the lack of ball bearings on the DEC axis, the CG-5 generally has a good dosage of stiction. Which would mask the cogging...

But I digress.

If I had only one mount for 10 years, and the choice was the CG-5 and AVX, the latter would be a no-brainer.




and guess what, the AVX like the CG-5 STILL has a ball bearing-less DEC axis! I can't say for certain as i have not yet needed to delve into my DEC axis on my CG-5 but i'd be willing to say rebuilding it with better teflon bearings and grease and a bit of work on the metal will result in AVX like performance on the CG-5 as after all the AVX is essential an improved and updated CG-5


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cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/26/12

Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: frito]
      #6053763 - 08/30/13 03:04 AM

The Celestron engineers are fairly bright and, believe it or not, thought about this. They understand more about what is going on with their mount than the majority of the denizens of CN.

They designed a solution to this which does not require fitting ball bearings instead of using a plain bearing. It doesn't require you to spend hundreds of dollars on additional bearings, or pay for hypertuning. None the less it solves the dec guiding problems that people were having with the CG5.

Chris


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frito
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/05/12

Loc: Fremont, CA
Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: cn register 5]
      #6053766 - 08/30/13 03:15 AM

Quote:

The Celestron engineers are fairly bright and, believe it or not, thought about this. They understand more about what is going on with their mount than the majority of the denizens of CN.

They designed a solution to this which does not require fitting ball bearings instead of using a plain bearing. It doesn't require you to spend hundreds of dollars on additional bearings, or pay for hypertuning. None the less it solves the dec guiding problems that people were having with the CG5.

Chris




I'm not disputing that they improved the design I'm simply pointing out that the poor design at its heart still exists and if one is inclined a CG-5 can be reworked at little cost to someone who is mechanically inclined to be improved as well on many aspects beyond the DEC axis.

at the end of the day it still stands you pay ~400 for a used CG-5 knowing its flaws and that it can be improved with time and money spent. or you spend 700-800 on an AVX knowing its basically an already improved version of the CG-5. I still stand by my opinion that if you are prepared to spend that much for an AVX you should stop for a moment and think about buying a used Sirius or Atlas mount, mounts that do not have the drawbacks of the CG-5 and possibly the AVX. i would take a used Sirius mount over a new AVX any day, its a better mount head design, its only drawback is the smaller tripod it comes with and that is easily remedied by getting a 2" tripod off a CG-5 and similar mounts. for 1k you can get an Atlas and your golden for many applications. one day years from now when there are AVX's all over the place they will be sold used for 500-600 dollars and at that point i can see telling people that yes its worth the extra 100, maybe 200 over the cost of a used CG-5 but today in my opinion its not when you consider for the price of the AVX you can get an overall better mount design used for the same or slightly more cost.


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cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/26/12

Re: Are savings on a CG-5 ASGT worth not getting AVX? new [Re: frito]
      #6053836 - 08/30/13 05:08 AM

Go and get a CG5, just don't come back whining about it having problems or features that are available or fixed on the AVX.

Chris


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