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philippe44
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Reged: 08/18/12

Re: 8SE alignment driving me crazy [Re: Tel]
      #6078389 - 09/13/13 09:21 AM

Quote:

Hi Philippe,

Given though that the angular distance between the horizontal and the vertical produces a constant 72 degrees and not the expected 90 degrees thus "undershooting" the true value, how can one explain that, while Dubhe is "undershot" in making a GoTo to it, the other stars/objects you have mentioned,(e.g.Vega, Altair, M13) are overshot"

As to the problem lying solely within the gears, one aspect might point to this if you recall the poor tracking of your 'scope which in turn, suggests excessive backlash despite the fact that you seem to have corrected for this successfully.

One other thought: Try removing the OTA and recording the angle obtained between the horizontal and the vertical. Does it still record 72 degrees instead of 90 ?




I did try with and without the OTA and go the same 72 result. About the overshoot and undershoot, sorry I might not have explained that correctly :I meant going to Dubhe it goes under and going to M13 it goes above. But for me this is consistent with the mount traveling more than the encoder reports, as the alignment stars are below M13 and above Dubhe - no ?

[edit] I did swap the encoders this morning and got the same result : 90 of Alt reads as 72, while the full circle on Azm reads to 360, so not en encoder problem. It really really feels to me like a a wrong firmware setting (parameter) of the pulse/angle ratio for the Alt motor

Edited by philippe44 (09/13/13 11:13 AM)


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Arctic_Eddie
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Reged: 12/30/07

Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
Re: 8SE alignment driving me crazy new [Re: philippe44]
      #6078772 - 09/13/13 01:33 PM

The possibilities are dwindling. Looks like firmware and wrong gearbox are all that's left. Never heard of a gearbox problem so that leaves firmware. Maybe it's got the MC code for a GEM mount with a different gear ratio.

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philippe44
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Reged: 08/18/12

Re: 8SE alignment driving me crazy new [Re: Arctic_Eddie]
      #6078814 - 09/13/13 02:04 PM

Quote:

The possibilities are dwindling. Looks like firmware and wrong gearbox are all that's left. Never heard of a gearbox problem so that leaves firmware. Maybe it's got the MC code for a GEM mount with a different gear ratio.




Fully agreed - I did re-update the MC firmware still w/o success. The problem is that it might not have updated such NV paramaters like gear ratio (that I know from my experience of embedded SW developer, FW udapte usually does not update NV paramaters, unless absolutely needed)

Edited by philippe44 (09/13/13 02:32 PM)


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Arctic_Eddie
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Re: 8SE alignment driving me crazy new [Re: philippe44]
      #6078876 - 09/13/13 02:50 PM

What versions did you use? I remember a note someplace that the MC and HC had to be done in a particular order. It might be worth trying an earlier version that's known to be good.

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philippe44
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Reged: 08/18/12

Re: 8SE alignment driving me crazy new [Re: Arctic_Eddie]
      #6078920 - 09/13/13 03:20 PM

5.14

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Arctic_Eddie
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Re: 8SE alignment driving me crazy new [Re: philippe44]
      #6078962 - 09/13/13 03:38 PM

Confirm that the HC version is 4.18. It plays well with MC5.14. Be sure you're using the MC and HC updater and not the newer one for the HC Plus hand sets.

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Arctic_Eddie
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Re: 8SE alignment driving me crazy new [Re: Arctic_Eddie]
      #6079043 - 09/13/13 04:32 PM

Found this info today. With all the CPR values available, they could easily use a different one to account for gearbox changes.

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/6063248/Main...

http://www.usdigital.com/applications/motors?gclid=COabgpibybkCFatj7AodW38AkQ


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philippe44
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Reged: 08/18/12

Re: 8SE alignment driving me crazy new [Re: Arctic_Eddie]
      #6079401 - 09/13/13 08:48 PM

Quote:

Confirm that the HC version is 4.18. It plays well with MC5.14. Be sure you're using the MC and HC updater and not the newer one for the HC Plus hand sets.




Thanks for the links !
I have a HC+, so the FW is 5.21.2336

Edited by philippe44 (09/13/13 10:50 PM)


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Arctic_Eddie
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Re: 8SE alignment driving me crazy new [Re: philippe44]
      #6079865 - 09/14/13 06:29 AM

Are you using the updater for that version of controller? The new one is Celestron Firmware Manager (CFM) v.1.0.2100. I would expect, as you did, that the gear ratios would be taken care of in the motor control source code as:

#define PPDG ??? // Pulses per degree

http://www.celestron.com/c3/support3/index.php?_m=downloads&_a=viewdownlo...,7

Also, MCLewis is a good source of info on this subject.


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cn register 5
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Reged: 12/26/12

Re: 8SE alignment driving me crazy new [Re: Arctic_Eddie]
      #6079876 - 09/14/13 06:51 AM

Which MC firmware type?

I can see:
Advanced Series 5.14 (latest 5.20)
CGE 5.14 (latest 5.20)
CPC 5.14
SE4 5.14 (latest 5.20)
SE6 5.14
SLT 5.14 (latest 5.18)

This is using MCUpdate v2.2.5 and clicking on the "download from the web" button.

The wrong firmware type could explain this if the gearing between models is different. I'm not sure how much protection there is, if any, from installing the wrong firmware.

I think that the MC firmware update program needs to be used and I think that the NS+ HC will work with it.

AFAIK the same boards are used in a variety of mounts, with the difference being the driver firmware and that some don't have connectors for limit switches and the PEC sensor.

But really this is way beyond what you as a user should be tackling. What is your dealer doing about it?

Chris


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Arctic_Eddie
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Re: 8SE alignment driving me crazy new [Re: cn register 5]
      #6079877 - 09/14/13 07:00 AM

I thought the HC+ controller required the CFM updater and only with specific FW versions. With this gear ratio problem, I almost think his mount is using a GEM FW where a different gear set is expected.

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philippe44
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Reged: 08/18/12

Re: 8SE alignment driving me crazy new [Re: Arctic_Eddie]
      #6079966 - 09/14/13 08:32 AM

Yes, I'm using CFM, not HCupdate. I've tried to install a wrong firmware (just to see) and it refused so there is a safety mechanism. MCupdate identifies it as a 6SE, which is normal. My dealer says go to celestron. This is very strange story indeed because when I bought this telescope from them (would not boot and was saying 'wrong firmware'). I had to bring back the initial mount that was not working at all. They exchanged it with this one, so I suspect something happened on their side ... everything was new (normally)
I absolutely did not mess with the FW or these units before - this is the exact story

Edited by philippe44 (09/14/13 08:38 AM)


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cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/26/12

Re: 8SE alignment driving me crazy new [Re: philippe44]
      #6080121 - 09/14/13 10:27 AM

Don't you have consumer protection laws in Canada? Can the dealer really sell you a faulty mount and abandon you? This mount came with a two year guarantee didn't it?

Celestron will quite reasonably want the mount back so they can find out what has happened. It's difficult to see how it could be the firmware but it could be a motor that was intended for a different mount.

The other person who might be able to help is Andre Paquette http://www.astrogeeks.com/ . He used to be the Celestron developer and lives in Canada. He may be able to help about what's happening here or may be able to update something.

Chris


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mclewis1
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Reged: 02/25/06

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Re: 8SE alignment driving me crazy new [Re: cn register 5]
      #6080208 - 09/14/13 11:22 AM

Philippe,

To help me understand ...

You first bought a 6SE that did not work.
The dealer replaced the mount for that first 6SE.
Is this second mount the one that said "wrong firmware" or is that error message from the first mount?

Your dealer should certainly be taking care of you ... you have a failure out of the box and not a warranty repair for a scope that's been in use for a while.


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Arctic_Eddie
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Re: 8SE alignment driving me crazy new [Re: mclewis1]
      #6080359 - 09/14/13 01:01 PM

Can you look at the encoder specs at USDigital.com to see if the one you have is correct? The other link in my same post said the PPR is 256. It's starting look like your dealer may have repaired the second mount with the wrong parts. Also, you may have gotten the first mount back with the wrong parts. I don't think anyone on this forum has ever seen this kind of problem but you sure have our attention as to the cause and fix.

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philippe44
member


Reged: 08/18/12

Re: 8SE alignment driving me crazy new [Re: mclewis1]
      #6080362 - 09/14/13 01:02 PM

Quote:

Philippe,

To help me understand ...

You first bought a 6SE that did not work.
The dealer replaced the mount for that first 6SE.
Is this second mount the one that said "wrong firmware" or is that error message from the first mount?

Your dealer should certainly be taking care of you ... you have a failure out of the box and not a warranty repair for a scope that's been in use for a while.




Thanks for your reply - Yes I bought a 8SE and the first mount did not work, HC displaying "wrong firmware" (don't remember exact wording). I brought it back to the dealer and he exchange it for a "new" mount. That was summer 2012 and I could not have this mount do proper goto. I shelved it at that time for various reasons and continued using my better CPC. This summer, I decided to give it another try and after various investigations (described in this thread) I finally came to the conclusion that this is a gear ratio problem.

Dealer sends me back to Celestron that don't answer to phone ... so I decided to try to solve the problem by myself

Philippe


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philippe44
member


Reged: 08/18/12

Re: 8SE alignment driving me crazy new [Re: cn register 5]
      #6080375 - 09/14/13 01:10 PM

Quote:

Don't you have consumer protection laws in Canada? Can the dealer really sell you a faulty mount and abandon you? This mount came with a two year guarantee didn't it?

Celestron will quite reasonably want the mount back so they can find out what has happened. It's difficult to see how it could be the firmware but it could be a motor that was intended for a different mount.

The other person who might be able to help is Andre Paquette http://www.astrogeeks.com/ . He used to be the Celestron developer and lives in Canada. He may be able to help about what's happening here or may be able to update something.

Chris




Thanks Chris - The dealer sent me to Celestron and I could not reach them (no answer) so I decided to try by myself. Franckly speaking, after I changed the initial Azm motor, I really thought it was it and then I fell on this new problem and get drawn into it. Thanks for Andre's contact and I'll surely ask him

Edited by philippe44 (09/14/13 01:52 PM)


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philippe44
member


Reged: 08/18/12

Re: 8SE alignment driving me crazy new [Re: Arctic_Eddie]
      #6080450 - 09/14/13 01:50 PM

Quote:

Can you look at the encoder specs at USDigital.com to see if the one you have is correct? The other link in my same post said the PPR is 256. It's starting look like your dealer may have repaired the second mount with the wrong parts. Also, you may have gotten the first mount back with the wrong parts. I don't think anyone on this forum has ever seen this kind of problem but you sure have our attention as to the cause and fix.




But in the post you sent me, Mary finally identified the encoder as a 180 ppr and that what she bought from digkey, not a 256 (and she was fixing an Alt motor). I've also ordered 2 encoders at digikey to try to repair my now "spare" Azm motor. What is sure is that, on my mount, the Alt and Azm encoders are the same (I've swapped them and got exactly the same behaviour from both motors)

Again, thanks for all your support, guys


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Arctic_Eddie
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Re: 8SE alignment driving me crazy new [Re: philippe44]
      #6080667 - 09/14/13 04:04 PM

Guess I didn't read the post completely as the 256 stuck in my mind. Seems like the only two things left are gearbox and firmware. I wonder if your seller grabbed the wrong parts from another mount, maybe a GEM, thinking the gearbox was the same.

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panhardModerator
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Re: 8SE alignment driving me crazy new [Re: Arctic_Eddie]
      #6081241 - 09/14/13 10:47 PM

philippe44 Where did you buy this scope? What area do you live in?

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