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Mark9473
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 2703
Loc: 51°N 4°E
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Thanks for your posts and for at least TRYING a little test which I suggested .
I've tried to get members of forums to try little two minute tests for themselves before , but very few ever seem to take the trouble
Kenny, does it count if I did this 20 years ago?
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I was CONVINCED that a 10x binocular did NOT actually magnify the full moon by a factor of TEN ! -- I would have SWORN it was only making the full moon about 3 or 4 times BIGGER !
Even today, that sounds about right to me... It would be a nice test to set up a pair of binoculars at a star party, and let people guess at how much it's magnifying the Moon. It's only when you really think about it, first estimating the AFOV and then estimating how many Moons fit within the FOV (easier on higher-magnification binoculars), that you've got any chance of approaching the correct result.
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Issue 1. Does using the FULL moon as a test target affect impressions , estimations or indeed actual RESULTS of edge performance , compared with using stars ?
The real reference would be EdZ's double star measurements. If we drag this thread on for another while, we might yet convince him of doing both tests alongside for a while.  What I think you and me (and whomever feels like joining) could already contribute, is checking the repeatability of the Full Moon Test for the same optic. How does it depend on seeing, residual twilight, altitude of the Moon above the horizon, transparency, etc.?
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Issue 2 . Why does an object when magnified by a binocular to say 10x it's linear dimensions , not actually appear to do so unless or until one measures it ?
I have a feeling this is somehow related to the optical illusion that the Moon is larger when it is lower in the sky. From this I would venture that for any two binoculars with the same magnification, the magnification is more correctly estimated for the pair with the smaller AFOV.
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Issue 3 . Why does a field of view which OUGHT to be capable of " containing " a certain number of spherical objects , such as a full moon , not APPEAR to be of sufficient area to do so ?
... and is this so for everybody? I'm not sure I'm sharing this impression.
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By the way , if anyone is doubting my statement about a 10x binocular magnifying the area of a rectangle by 100x , just try using the gable end of a large building as the target , and with one eye naked ( or with eyeglasses worn ) and the other looking through one eyepiece of a binocular , now just imagine if it would take exactly ONE tin of paint to paint the gable end if it were the size as seen by the naked eye , then how many tins of paint do you think it would take to paint the gable end if it were the size as seen through the binocular ?
Ten -- or one hundred ?
Not being much of a handyman with painting and such, I find it easier to demonstrate that the diameter of an object is magnified 10 times, and then use mathematics to show the area has therefore increased 100 times.
-------------------- Mark
Leica 8x20; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63
WO Megrez II 80 FD + Baader 90° T2 Amici
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KennyJ
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10163
Loc: Lancashire UK
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< Kenny, does it count if I did this 20 years ago? >
ONLY if you got the idea from ME in the first place :-)
< What I think you and me (and whomever feels like joining) could already contribute, is checking the repeatability of the Full Moon Test for the same optic. How does it depend on seeing, residual twilight, altitude of the Moon above the horizon, transparency, etc.? >
Well Mark , I realise it's no longer a FULL moon , but following a very disappointing half hour out with the Zeiss diascope from around 9pm local time ( with the easterly moon blocked from view by my house ) looking at stars before clouds rolled in with more speed and purpose than Brett Lee , inspired by the snippet above , knowing our friend luna would be visible over the rooftop by now , I just went out to see what I thought tonight , through the Zeiss 7 x 42 .
The moon is quite high now , with lots of fast moving cloud providing an effect one described by our colleague Sir Isaac Stephen Napier as being THE catalyst for his lifelong interest in astronomy .
There were a lot of colour differences within the small area of sky surrounding the moon , with hues of brown , orange , yellow , grey , blue and white combining to create a moving picture so noteworthy that it almost took my mind off the purpose of having gone outside again .
Struggling to put aside the visual and emotional appeal of the moon appearing to rush through this riot of colour like a giant fireball , I tried to assess image degradation when moving it very slowly from centre to edge across the vast acreage of the 8.6 degree TFOV .
My concentration , already being tested , was ruined , particularly when scanning left , so that the moon was moved into the right side of the field , by a pronounced ghosting .
A " second ghost moon " , almost edge to edge with the real one , was becoming increasingly prominent as I slowly shifted the moon to the right hand edge of view .
I quickly diagnosed this rather cheeky intrusion to be the fault of my glasses !
As soon as I removed them , it completely disappeared , but upon doing so , another factor immediately came into the equation .
Astigmatism .
Without my glasses , my astigmatism is so severe these nights , that the moon becomes about as accurate a representation of it's true shape as " Flowery Tw-ts " was to Fawlty Towers .
In addition to which it's apparant overall size increases by a factor of about 30% .
Calculating the area of a gibbous moon would come about as easily to me as would calculating the area of the side elevation of one of my beloved sheep .
So even to suggest a figure of 30% is more a result of trying to " sound scientific " as much as anything else .
But there is no doubt that without my glasses , it looks a lot bigger .
But the field of view in my binoculars does NOT look any bigger .
This , in itself , makes a mockery of the whole exercise , and I am fast becoming aware ( because I always think fast and am often unaware ) that to be presenting myself as some kind of pioneering binocular experimentor with eyesight as bad as mine has become since spending so much time on this PC ( on cloudy nights ) makes about as much sense as a deaf person applying for a job as Pink Floyd's sound engineer for the forthcoming £100 million DARK SIDE of the moon tour.
Does anyone know of any contact lenses going cheap ?
Regards , Kenny
-------------------- If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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Mark9473
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 2703
Loc: 51°N 4°E
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Kenny, is it true? Are they going to tour with Dark Side of the Moon again? Wow!
-------------------- Mark
Leica 8x20; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63
WO Megrez II 80 FD + Baader 90° T2 Amici
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KennyJ
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10163
Loc: Lancashire UK
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< Kenny, is it true? Are they going to tour with Dark Side of the Moon again? Wow! >
Mark ,
It depends if you believe what you read in CERTAIN so called NEWSPAPERS -- but I heard it on BBC Radio 2 yesterday
http://www.albumvote.co.uk/news/news.php?id=683
Kenny
-------------------- If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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