Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home pageAstronomics discounts for Cloudy Nights members
· Get a Cloudy Nights T-Shirt · Submit a Review / Article

Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums

Privacy Policy | Please read our Terms of Service | Signup and Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu… uh, User

General Astronomy >> Light Pollution

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | (show all)
obin robinson
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/25/12

Loc: League City, TX
Re: Small, VERY local, hopefully not temporary victory new [Re: Kfrank]
      #6106215 - 09/28/13 03:52 PM

Quote:

Both of the above postings are demeaning to the "average person", who in fact is presumed to be anyone who thinks other than we do.

Human preference for light over darkness is real and this culturally based preference goes back thousands of years.





People who put garish lights all over their property and leave them on all night long are simply afraid of the dark. Plain and simple. They are afraid that when the lights go out something might happen that won't happen if the lights are on. They will come up with all sorts of excuses and irrational reasons whey they need more than adequate light and why they need light when they are fast asleep or nobody is home. They are simply afraid of the dark. Just like being afraid of spiders, snakes, ghosts, or heights it's going to take experience and education to shake them from their fear. I have asked people why they have those big bright lights up and it's ridiculous the reasons they come up with all the while ignoring the fact that nobody else in the neighborhood has those lights. They just don't want to admit that a grown adult is afraid of the dark. It's still funny to hear their excuses. That's all.

obin


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
magic612
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/30/08

Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
Re: Small, VERY local, hopefully not temporary victory new [Re: Kfrank]
      #6106246 - 09/28/13 04:11 PM

Quote:

A far better way is for me to be a good neighbor and attempt to obtain cooperation fostered by mutual respect and a desire to be fair and accommodating.

Just my thoughts...




Something I have tried, three times now to no avail, with this present neighbor next door to me to the north. At some point, it requires more then asking nicely. I've even offered to pay half of a new light fixture for them. Not be too crass about it, but they really don't give a ______ about us. They want their "shine everywhere" light, and if it goes on our property and in my daughter's second floor window, they really don't care. "Buy curtains" they said. At some point, by only being "nice," I'm being the doormat, and they keep wiping their shoes on me. There's no mutual respect, much less a desire to be fair and accommodating to me, and I think I've been more than accommodating and fair - I didn't ask them to turn the light off, after all. Just keep it on their property.

So I am going the political route, which is taking an extremely long period of time to even get substantive responses. But I'll keep working at it.

Incidentally, these same neighbors finally realized - after 2.5 weeks of it being burned out - that their "necessary to have on because they like it" post lamp needed the bulb replaced.

Small consolation: The bulb doesn't appear to be quite as bright as the last one. But I was still able to make shadow puppets on the moving truck of my new neighbor's to the south, which is over 90 feet away from the light.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
guangtou
sage


Reged: 03/27/10

Re: Small, VERY local, hopefully not temporary victory new [Re: Kfrank]
      #6106459 - 09/28/13 06:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

One thing to keep in mind is that we are just plain weird to other folks. I'm not excusing their light trespass, I'm only pointing out that 99% of the rest of the world has a caveman , "light good" mindset.




True. They think the best way to spend a night is inside watching reruns of an episode they've seen twice before. The wonders of the universe only appear to them on a TV screen. They think satellites are invisible, planets can only be seen with a thousand dollar telescope, and they think that the only camera that can photograph a galaxy is either an orbiting space telescope or a million dollar observatory.

obin




Both of the above postings are demeaning to the "average person", who in fact is presumed to be anyone who thinks other than we do.

Human preference for light over darkness is real and this culturally based preference goes back thousands of years.

Humans have traditionally sought light as a refuge from the dark, and continue to do so today. Our language is full of metaphors that celebrate light as good and revile darkness as bad.

Whether we like it or not, humanity harbors a cultural preference for light over darkness and convincing them to change is an uphill battle.

I don't condone, nor do I like it when a neighbor's light intrudes on my yard or illuminates my bedroom window. I also know that telling them they're idiots or foolish for lighting their yards is totally counterproductive. It is possible to force people to adapt to your point of view by legislating, and in some cases that is a reasonable and necessary step. A far better way is for me to be a good neighbor and attempt to obtain cooperation fostered by mutual respect and a desire to be fair and accommodating.

Just my thoughts...




You basically just said the same thing I did . Btw, if my neighbor habitually trespasses or flagrantly inhibits my right to enjoy my property, he may need a little demeaning. I could care less if he likes astronomy- just don't light up my yard with your lights.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Kfrank
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/20/08

Loc: Northern Colorado
Re: Small, VERY local, hopefully not temporary victory new [Re: guangtou]
      #6106473 - 09/28/13 07:08 PM

"You basically just said the same thing I did . Btw, if my neighbor habitually trespasses or flagrantly inhibits my right to enjoy my property, he may need a little demeaning. I could care less if he likes astronomy- just don't light up my yard with your lights.

I respect your right to act as you chose. But, let me ask:

How's it workin' for ya?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
guangtou
sage


Reged: 03/27/10

Re: Small, VERY local, hopefully not temporary victory new [Re: Kfrank]
      #6106485 - 09/28/13 07:23 PM Attachment (16 downloads)

Quote:

"You basically just said the same thing I did . Btw, if my neighbor habitually trespasses or flagrantly inhibits my right to enjoy my property, he may need a little demeaning. I could care less if he likes astronomy- just don't light up my yard with your lights.

I respect your right to act as you chose. But, let me ask:

How's it workin' for ya?




While I sound a bit ornery online, I don't go around knocking on doors telling people I'll sue them if they don't turn off their porch light.

However, here's one example of a neighbor's light trespass I didn't let go.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Kfrank
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/20/08

Loc: Northern Colorado
Re: Small, VERY local, hopefully not temporary victory new [Re: guangtou]
      #6106502 - 09/28/13 07:38 PM

Nor, IMO, should you.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
ion
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/26/08

Loc: Bortle Scale 2
Re: Small, VERY local, hopefully not temporary victory [Re: frolinmod]
      #6106570 - 09/28/13 08:47 PM

Quote:

Remember you'll need toilet facilities which probably means you'll need water and sewer and power.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composting_toilet


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
magic612
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/30/08

Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
Re: Small, VERY local, hopefully not temporary victory new [Re: ion]
      #6140790 - 10/16/13 12:19 PM

In the last few weeks, I have contacted my Village representative a couple of times. He finally responded to me, and I think perhaps he has given up trying to get a response from the electric company, as he gave me the email address of the electric company's municipal representative. So here is the email I sent to that person today:

Quote:

"Hello Mr. ELECTRIC COMPANY REPRESENTATIVE,

My name is David Fuller, and I live at XZY Street in ABCDEFG. There is a streetlight at the corner of HIJKLM and NOPQRS streets that shines directly into the window of my daughter's room (see attached photo, light is in upper-left of picture - neighbor's light is a separate issue being addressed). This makes it impossible for her to sleep with the window open when weather allows for this, as her curtain must be closed to block the light (which otherwise leaves her room too bright to sleep).

I have contacted the Village of ABCDEFG about this problem (see messages below). Initially I was told this was an issue for ELECTRIC COMPANY. I have contacted ELECTRIC COMPANY several times about this light in the past, and in every case, I asked for the ELECTRIC COMPANY person to please contact me BEFORE coming out, so I could be there to explain the situation. Each time, I was NOT contacted ahead of time that a ELECTRIC COMPANY representative came out. Instead, the ELECTRIC COMPANY person came with no prior contact, and subsequently spoke to my children instead of me. I don't understand why that occurs. This last time, they said to my children that this was a Village issue to be resolved. Yet the Village tells me it is ELECTRIC COMPANY's issue.

This has left me more than a little frustrated. Our Village Administrator, Mr. NAME REDACTED, gave me your contact information, as he said that he has tried to contact ELECTRIC COMPANY several times now regarding this issue and not received a response.

All I know is that a ELECTRIC COMPANY streetlight is shining into my daughter's window, that keeps her from sleeping well. I would like to get this issue resolved. We have put up curtain - full, light-block material curtains, and light STILL gets through from these streetlights, and this also makes sleeping with windows open on comfortable-temperature nights impossible. Please advise as to what action can be taken to keep this light from shining into our 2nd floor window. I do not mind if a fully shielded light is installed and lights up the pavement beneath the light. I am not sure why so much light is being wasted shining into my daughter's bedroom. Please note that after the leaves fall off the trees in a month, the light at the corner of HIJKLM and TUVWXY streets will be shining into my other daughter's bedroom as well.

On ELECTRIC COMPANY's site, it even states, "Lower utility bills. Reduced electricity use. Environmental responsibility." See this page: myelectriccompany'swebsitelinkhere I am having trouble understanding how a streetlight that intended to light up an intersection that is shining light into my daughter's room ~100 feet away is reducing electricity use or environmentally responsible.

Please advise how we can resolve these streetlight issues is quickly as possible, in conjunction with the Village of ABCDEFG, if necessary. The villages of 12345 and 67890 have both put up very attractive, downward-shielded streetlights that do not contribute to light trespass or light pollution. Is it possible to do the same in ABCDEFG? Thank you in advance for your assistance in this matter.

David Fuller"




Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
magic612
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/30/08

Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
Re: Small, VERY local, hopefully not temporary victory new [Re: magic612]
      #6142004 - 10/16/13 10:47 PM

In what was a complete surprise to me, I not only got an email back within a couple of hours, I also received TWO phone calls - one from the electric company representative, who indicated his apologies for the light being the way that it is, and also a call from his foreman who will be out tomorrow to come look at the lights.

I couldn't take either call because they called during work hours, but I called the foreman back after work and we did speak. I talked to him about the light and my frustration with the pointing of fingers as to who owns it and is responsible for it. He said he will come out tomorrow and check to be sure who's it is. I also asked him to check the other intersection as well, and he said he would and let me know for sure whether they are owned by them, or the Village. I thanked him for his prompt and helpful response, and said I looked forward to his feedback tomorrow.

Small steps, but I'm finally getting somewhere with those lights. I say this as an encouragement to others; DO NOT GIVE UP! Keep at it. If at first (and second, third, fourth and fifth!!) you don't succeed, ask to speak to someone else!! You just might find your way to the right person. Just keep being polite, but persistent.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
magic612
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/30/08

Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
Re: Small, VERY local, hopefully not temporary victory new [Re: magic612]
      #6143429 - 10/17/13 06:00 PM

WOW... some (very cautiously optimistic) good news!

The foreman came out today, looked at the light poles, determined that they are the electric company's and he left a door hangar note on my front door. I won't repeat it verbatim to avoid TOS violations here, but the summary is that they will order new light heads for the two streetlamps and it will take around a week or so to get them.

WOOT! HOLY COW!

Now, I am still, as I said at the beginning of this post, cautiously optimistic. If they put up a fixture that is still spraying light all over, that won't do any good. So I did call the foreman again to get his thoughts on the style of head they plan to put in as a replacement, but I did not reach him and had to leave a message. So we'll see what actually gets put in - but, I am, for the first time since this saga began, HOPEFUL.

And I wrote all of this out for others, so they can use my words and techniques, and THEY can work to do this, and be hopeful about their outcomes as well.

Of course, this is really only the beginning for me, as there are MANY more streetlights to get changed in town. There are many more bad postlamps and poor bulbs that need addressing. But this is a start, and I will be able to SHOW the difference to others, and how it has improved our quality of life should the new light heads be a downward-directed style.

HAVE HOPE! THIS CAN WORK FOR YOU TOO!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
magic612
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/30/08

Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
An actual difference! Check it out! new [Re: magic612]
      #6149052 - 10/20/13 08:35 PM

I got up this morning and was getting ready, when I noticed out the bathroom window an electric company truck at the intersection down the street.

Mind you, it is SUNDAY.

I thought, "Wow... they can't be... they surely aren't... no, can't be. What's probably happening is that that light used to flicker on and off, and they're probably replacing the electronics, and in a few days, they'll replace the light head."

NOPE!

I went outside, and not only was there one crew working, there were TWO crews working to swap out the light fixtures - one on each intersection!

SAY WHAT?!?!?

I was BEYOND giddy. And tonight, I took a picture - same place, same exposure, of at least one of the lights (the other one doesn't shine into a window until the leaves have fallen).

So YES... I got it done! Now... on to that pesky lamp post of the neighbor's, and a few other "down the alley / shine everywhere" lights....



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
De Lorme
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 12/30/08

Re: An actual difference! Check it out! new [Re: magic612]
      #6149187 - 10/21/13 01:08 AM

Great victory! De Lorme

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
barasits
sage


Reged: 06/12/11

Loc: Chicago
Re: An actual difference! Check it out! new [Re: magic612]
      #6149936 - 10/21/13 02:04 PM



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
magic612
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/30/08

Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
Will be meeting with local official about lighting new [Re: barasits]
      #6155376 - 10/24/13 11:52 AM

Another update: The village administrator contacted me again, said he has driven by my house, and wants to set up a time to meet with me to discuss the neighbor's light. I have a very busy evening schedule for the next few weeks, so I said I'd let him know a time in mid-November to do so.

The good thing about this is that I can show him two or three other lights that are problematic as well.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tbuzzi1
member
*****

Reged: 01/14/09

Loc: Rockport,Tx
Re: Small, VERY local, hopefully not temporary victory new [Re: Gil V]
      #6308241 - 01/12/14 02:06 PM

Dave,
Where did you get the poster depicted in this string "It's a bright idea"?
You live in Chicago? Good luck with the pollution. I live in a tiny town in South Texas which is awash in lights. Yuck!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
magic612
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/30/08

Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
Re: Small, VERY local, hopefully not temporary victory new [Re: tbuzzi1]
      #6309176 - 01/12/14 09:53 PM

Hi Thomas - I made that poster myself. You're welcome to use it if you want. I have some crazy time-schedule restrictions through February, but I'll be ramping back up into full light-pollution-reduction mode not long after that.

I don't live in Chicago - quite a way south, actually. On a good, clear night I can see down to 5.0 magnitude overhead, but the northern sky is perpetually bright.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
rustyprice
member


Reged: 12/17/13

Loc: South Bend, Indiana
Re: Small, VERY local, hopefully not temporary victory new [Re: magic612]
      #6309420 - 01/13/14 12:27 AM

Dave, I watch your videos, you are quite inspiring! Maybe it's time to put some of those skills to work with the neighbor, get a good view of Saturn in the scope so he truly "gets it", you never know...that might be all it takes!

Edited by rustyprice (01/13/14 12:30 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
magic612
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/30/08

Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
Re: Small, VERY local, hopefully not temporary victory new [Re: rustyprice]
      #6309816 - 01/13/14 09:17 AM

Already tried that. Neither one of them has any interest whatsoever in the night sky.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
HUSKY1
member


Reged: 12/28/13

Re: Small, VERY local, hopefully not temporary victory new [Re: magic612]
      #6315554 - 01/15/14 10:33 PM

Hi Magic...

With reference to having lights on as a 'protection,' this is more myth than anything supported by research and, in my case, personal experience. The phrase that should be used is "If you light it they will come" which, I believe, is a more accurate description of crimes at night.

When my sister moved to my rural property, she wanted a yard light. My brother-in-law complied. Immediately people would drive into and even walk around the yard at night! Complaining to one of our neighbours, my sister found out that they had had a similar problem and solved it simply. "We shut the yard light out!" was our neighbour's answer. Thus, we did the same and now virtually no one comes into the yard. Our rottweiler gets the remainders. We recommend that people use sensor-based yard lights - saves money yet alerts you as to when something is in the yard. The light is still there when you need it.

Principles for LEC Lighting
1. Only light what needs to be lit. Avoid “feel
good” lighting that does nothing practical and
wastes energy.
2. Only use light where light is needed. Don’t light
up your neighbors’ property or the night sky.
Don’t light more than you really have to.
3. Only use as much light as is necessary. Brighter
isn’t necessarily better and can cause additional
problems.
4. Use light only when it is needed. Use timers,
motion detectors and photocells to have light
only when it is needed, to improve your security
and to reduce your power bills.
5. Use only full cut-off, high-efficiency bulbs and
fixtures such as LED‘s. Eliminate sag-lenses
and up-directed light. Shine all light downward.
6. Shut off business lights, flood lights and
advertising after hours. This prevents light
pollution while reducing business costs.

The figures I have seen indicate 80% of crimes occur during daylight, personal crimes are usually committed by someone you know. More night crimes occur in lit areas and criminals are as afraid of the dark as any other person.
Knowledgeable police officers are usually happy to educate citizens on the best way to light their properties to prevent crimes.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
magic612
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/30/08

Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
Re: Small, VERY local, hopefully not temporary victory new [Re: HUSKY1]
      #6315603 - 01/15/14 11:04 PM

Hi HUSKY, thanks for that info, though I must say, you're preaching to the choir. I'm well aware of all that.

Convincing my stubborn neighbor, who actually said he liked the light shining in his eyes? That's the bigger problem here.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | (show all)


Extra information
2 registered and 5 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  LivingNDixie, richard7 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 4139

Jump to

CN Forums Home


Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics