Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home pageAstronomics discounts for Cloudy Nights members
· Get a Cloudy Nights T-Shirt · Submit a Review / Article

Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums

Privacy Policy | Please read our Terms of Service | Signup and Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu… uh, User

Speciality Forums >> Science! Astronomy & Space Exploration, and Others

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | (show all)
deSitter
Still in Old School


Reged: 12/09/04

Re: The Higgs Boson as a field of snow new [Re: PeterR280]
      #6127634 - 10/09/13 06:46 PM

Why would you think that?

-drl


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
PeterR280
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 05/27/13

Re: The Higgs Boson as a field of snow new [Re: deSitter]
      #6127672 - 10/09/13 07:01 PM

To be consistent with relativity

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: The Higgs Boson as a field of snow new [Re: deSitter]
      #6127971 - 10/09/13 10:01 PM

Quote:

In such a world, the Higgs mechanism is irrelevant, and the Higgs field would sit glumly on the bench like a klutzy infielder whose presence on the team is mandated by nepotism.





Now, THAT's an analogy!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
shawnhar
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 06/25/10

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: The Higgs Boson as a field of snow [Re: PeterR280]
      #6128622 - 10/10/13 09:28 AM

Quote:

I'd be curious if any person without any knowledge of physics understood what the Higgs Field is from what you said above,



I have a limited knowledge of physics and thought it was the most clear explanation I have seen so far.

I took from it that the Higgs field propogates out and allows the weak force to operate at a distance that would otherwise violate conservation. - Is that a valid understanding?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
deSitter
Still in Old School


Reged: 12/09/04

Re: The Higgs Boson as a field of snow new [Re: shawnhar]
      #6128922 - 10/10/13 11:48 AM

The best analogy for the role of the Higgs interaction comes from classical mechanics! It is this. A typical problem tackled by the physics student in his first full-blown physics course, is to solve the problem of a ball bearing in a gravitational field, rolling on the inside of a spherical surface. The ball bearing wants to fall, but is "constrained" by the spherical bowl and must remain on that bowl. So its trajectory is not straight down, rather, a more or less complex motion on the sphere itself. We are taught a method for dealing with problems that involve constraints like this - "Lagrangian mechanics". The free motion of a falling object is described by a "Lagrangian function". To this function is added another term with an undetermined "Lagrange multiplier" to take account of the sphere. Once the equations are solved this way, you can determine the value of the undetermined Lagrange multiplier. It turns out that it gives just the required normal force of the sphere on the ball to ensure that it does not leave the sphere. So you can look at things from two points of view - you have the motion of a ball constrained to a sphere, or you can ignore the sphere altogether and add in a mysterious "sphere force" that causes the ball to deviate from its normal course of falling straight down.

Now, what if you had a ball bearing that was moving on a sphere which was invisible? You'd be perplexed and wonder, why isn't this ball bearing falling down to the floor like the other ones? And you try things and eventually hit on the idea of this sphere force. The sphere force is not pre-determined, it is just what it needs to be to resist motion off the sphere.

That is pretty much what happens with the Higgs field. The gauge bosons are by their nature massless and so long-range, but they behave as if they were not. So you throw into the Lagrangian function that describes the various fields and their interactions in the massless case, this mysterious "Higgs field" which always provides just what is needed to make the gauge bosons appear massive.

The Higgs field thus describes, not an actual state of matter alone, but matter in relation to the background in which it moves. It is more a property of the vacuum of particle physics itself, than an independent entity.

It is very likely that the Higgs boson story is not over. A tight argument says that it must be composite in some way, perhaps made of actual matter in some sort of bound state. This also has an analogy in superconductivity. The ultimate cause for (normal) superconductivity is the pairing of electrons that takes place when you put them in cold metal lattice. They interact not just with each other, but also the lattice in which they move. So, even though they repel each other electromagnetically, they are also attracted to each other because of some magic that happens when they are inside a cold atomic lattice other than free space. The attraction can be strong enough to overcome the electromagnetic repulsion and they form bound pairs (Cooper pairs). These pairs are bosons and can now pile into the same quantum state. The result is the supercurrent. The long-range electromagnetic interaction, or at least, part of it, has been hidden by interaction with the background atomic lattice. The Higgs field in this scenario is then to be thought of as excitations of this lattice that result in the net attractive force. The lattice behaves just as it has to, to ensure pairing of electrons and formation of the supercurrent. Once the current is established, you can forget about the background lattice and treat the supercurrent alone. When the energy is high enough, the temperature of the lattice goes up, it begins to vibrate out of its normal orderly pattern that allows the quantum collective state to form, the interactions of electrons via the lattice breaks down, the supercurrent disappears, and the normal state of unscreened, long-range electromagnetic interaction returns.

Without the theory of superconductivity as developed by London and London, Landau and Ginzburg, and finally Bardeen, Cooper, and Schrieffer, none of the modern model of spontaneously broken gauge symmetry as a fundamental theory would exist. This illustrates in dramatic terms, that this model - broken gauge symmetry - is *entirely* phenomenological, and will eventually be replaced by a complete theoretical model involving new ideas.

-drl


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Otto Piechowski
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/20/05

Loc: Lexington, KY
Re: The Higgs Boson as a field of snow new [Re: deSitter]
      #6129018 - 10/10/13 12:40 PM

Danny,

I wish I would have had you as a physics teacher in high school.

Another issue: You wrote, "The Higgs field thus describes, not an actual state of matter alone, but matter in relation to the background in which it moves. It is more a property of the vacuum of particle physics itself, than an independent entity."

Do you remember many months ago when I asked you/this forum about the idea of uneducated "savant" I knew name Lawrence who suggested that space was the cause of motion. Is your statement which I just quoted, consistent with, similar to his idea?

His reasoning was that, according to Einstein, energy is a type of matter, and according to Newton a thing cannot overcome its own inertial movement; therefore, matter cannot move itself, nor can various forms of energy (forces) move matter because that would be a case of matter moving itself. The only thing, left, Lawrence reasoned was space and therefore he suggested space is what causes motion.

Otto


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GregLee1
professor emeritus


Reged: 07/21/13

Loc: Waimanalo, HI
Re: The Higgs Boson as a field of snow new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #6129044 - 10/10/13 12:57 PM

Quote:

... and according to Newton a thing cannot overcome its own inertial movement;



Did they have Roman candles in Newton's day?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
deSitter
Still in Old School


Reged: 12/09/04

Re: The Higgs Boson as a field of snow new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #6129105 - 10/10/13 01:27 PM

Quote:

Danny,

I wish I would have had you as a physics teacher in high school.

Another issue: You wrote, "The Higgs field thus describes, not an actual state of matter alone, but matter in relation to the background in which it moves. It is more a property of the vacuum of particle physics itself, than an independent entity."

Do you remember many months ago when I asked you/this forum about the idea of uneducated "savant" I knew name Lawrence who suggested that space was the cause of motion. Is your statement which I just quoted, consistent with, similar to his idea?

His reasoning was that, according to Einstein, energy is a type of matter, and according to Newton a thing cannot overcome its own inertial movement; therefore, matter cannot move itself, nor can various forms of energy (forces) move matter because that would be a case of matter moving itself. The only thing, left, Lawrence reasoned was space and therefore he suggested space is what causes motion.

Otto




No, that's a trivial oversimplification. It may be possible to have a new more inclusive space in which matter shows up as aspects of that space. That's an idea very close to my heart. But spacetime, the 4d sort that lives under field theory, is not a form of matter, and the Higgs field is not coextensive with it. The Higgs field is an aspect of field theory and its vacuum, which presumes flat, continuous spacetime as a stage.

-drl


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Otto Piechowski
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/20/05

Loc: Lexington, KY
Re: The Higgs Boson as a field of snow new [Re: deSitter]
      #6129128 - 10/10/13 01:38 PM

Thank you Danny.

Your words "matter shows up as aspects of that space. That's an idea very close to my heart" sound interesting.

Otto


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dvb
different Syndrome.
*****

Reged: 06/18/05

Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Re: The Higgs Boson as a field of snow new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #6129145 - 10/10/13 01:48 PM

I applaud the science writers who attempt to explain physics to laypeople.

The exercise will necessarily be imperfect, and the laypeople know that, but I also applaud the laypeople who are curious about these things, and who hope to understand them as best they can.

And, I applaud those of you who are in a position to critique those attempts to explain to laypeople, and who can find the right balance between comprehensibility and accuracy.



But, please, may be all be saved from the worst such efforts, such as references to a "God Particle".



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
PeterR280
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 05/27/13

Re: The Higgs Boson as a field of snow new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #6129150 - 10/10/13 01:51 PM

" It may be possible to have a new more inclusive space in which matter shows up as aspects of that space."

That would indeed be a more complete theory building on what Einstein had done.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
PeterR280
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 05/27/13

Re: The Higgs Boson as a field of snow new [Re: PeterR280]
      #6129186 - 10/10/13 02:09 PM

"The Higgs field is an aspect of field theory and its vacuum, which presumes flat, continuous spacetime as a stage."

Danny

Have you played with granularity to Spacetime? I haven't seen too much written about that.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
deSitter
Still in Old School


Reged: 12/09/04

Re: The Higgs Boson as a field of snow new [Re: PeterR280]
      #6129288 - 10/10/13 03:00 PM

No but my advisor David Finkelstein sure did! So I've heard a lot about it. It's certainly a valid approach and I admire those with the patience to pursue it.

-drl


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
deSitter
Still in Old School


Reged: 12/09/04

Re: The Higgs Boson as a field of snow new [Re: deSitter]
      #6129300 - 10/10/13 03:06 PM

What I work on is the opposite idea, to eventually explain quanta as a phasy aspect of a more inclusive spacetime. The extra dimensions in this spacetime are timelike and correspond directly to matter and antimatter without any reference to particles as such. I have had some success with this idea, but here is not the place to discuss it. It's enough to say that there is plenty of room for new ideas.

-drl


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
deSitter
Still in Old School


Reged: 12/09/04

Re: The Higgs Boson as a field of snow new [Re: deSitter]
      #6129309 - 10/10/13 03:11 PM

The main point is - the way forward is to reconcile the, as of now, complete isolation of the theory of spacetime geometry, and the fields that live on it. String theory is a failure. Onward

-drl


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
PeterR280
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 05/27/13

Re: The Higgs Boson as a field of snow new [Re: deSitter]
      #6129373 - 10/10/13 03:40 PM

except for gravity

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
deSitter
Still in Old School


Reged: 12/09/04

Re: The Higgs Boson as a field of snow new [Re: PeterR280]
      #6129379 - 10/10/13 03:46 PM

No, that too!

-drl


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: The Higgs Boson as a field of snow new [Re: deSitter]
      #6129475 - 10/10/13 04:54 PM

Can one be refreshed on the conservation laws, often mentioned by deSitter?
About Energy, Mass, Momentum, Space itself maybe? etc. not forgetting Time, and or Entropy.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: The Higgs Boson as a field of snow new [Re: dickbill]
      #6129649 - 10/10/13 06:29 PM

...or maybe let's talk about what is not conserved in our enclose system: the Universe. Is it really enclosed by the way? nothing can escape from all-togetherness and I am thinking about black holes.

Entropy is supposed to ever increase, so it is not conserved.
Time, IF a conservation law does not apply for Time, why?
Space (Volume) is not conserved since the Universe is expending.
Energy (=mc^2) ? I read here that there is nothing in Relativity that poses it should be conserved. Although we learn in school that Energy and mass are conserved, that they can only be transformed, here we talk about the total energy (and mass or any other form) contained in the Universe.
So, does the Universe still weight the same than at its birth?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
deSitter
Still in Old School


Reged: 12/09/04

Re: The Higgs Boson as a field of snow new [Re: dickbill]
      #6129653 - 10/10/13 06:31 PM

YES, good question, I'll get to it presently.

-drl


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | (show all)


Extra information
0 registered and 5 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  LivingNDixie, FirstSight, JayinUT 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 3454

Jump to

CN Forums Home


Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics