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vpcirc
Post Laureate


Reged: 12/09/09

Loc: Merced CA
The end of OAG?
      #6133165 - 10/12/13 02:15 PM Attachment (65 downloads)

I watched the president of SBIG demonstrate a revolution in a new guiding technology last night at AIC. Using the benefit of a wide field guide scope and the generation of an artificial star in the imaging train, the system measures changes in movements between the two to send guiding corrections. By eliminating mirror issues, this seems like very promising new tech to end the pain of OAG and rotators for reflector systems. They are also working on multi star guiding! SBIG has become my new favorite Astro company. It seems this system will be released in the very near future.

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Footbag
Post Laureate
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Reged: 04/13/09

Loc: Scranton, PA
Re: The end of OAG? new [Re: vpcirc]
      #6133173 - 10/12/13 02:20 PM

Quote:

I watched the president of SBIG demonstrate a revolution in a new guiding technology last night at AIC. Using the benefit of a wide field guide scope and the generation of an artificial star in the imaging train, the system measures changes in movements between the two to send guiding corrections. By eliminating mirror issues, this seems like very promising new tech to end the pain of OAG and rotators for reflector systems. They are also working on multi star guiding! SBIG has become my new favorite Astro company. It seems this system will be released in the very near future.




Wow. The artificial star idea sounds very smart. I've always wondered about multi-star guiding as well. Thanks for sharing the info.


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vpcirc
Post Laureate


Reged: 12/09/09

Loc: Merced CA
Re: The end of OAG? new [Re: Footbag]
      #6133176 - 10/12/13 02:21 PM

They're saying it will be announced within the next month

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Tapio
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/24/06

Loc: Tampere, Finland
Re: The end of OAG? new [Re: vpcirc]
      #6133185 - 10/12/13 02:25 PM

Don't quite get it.
Looked at SBIG site and there was only "Sorry, there are no products at this time" in Differential Guiding.
Does this eliminate differential flexure using separate guide scope ?


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vpcirc
Post Laureate


Reged: 12/09/09

Loc: Merced CA
Re: The end of OAG? new [Re: Tapio]
      #6133190 - 10/12/13 02:27 PM

Yes, no flexure

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mattw
sage


Reged: 07/19/06

Loc: Arkansas
Re: The end of OAG? new [Re: vpcirc]
      #6133226 - 10/12/13 02:52 PM

Very cool, thanks for posting. While I love my OAG for it's nice round stars, if I could forgo the rotator/OAG, and still avoid flexure, I would be sold.

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andysea
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 09/03/10

Loc: Seattle, WA
Re: The end of OAG? new [Re: mattw]
      #6133268 - 10/12/13 03:24 PM

That sounds very interesting! I don't quite understand how it works but I can't wait to learn all about it!

How is the artificial star generated?


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orion69
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/09/10

Loc: Croatia
Re: The end of OAG? new [Re: mattw]
      #6133274 - 10/12/13 03:27 PM

So if I'm understanding this correctly they are measuring difference in position between artificial star and the actual guiding star in guide scope?
In another words they added another device to guiding scope just to accomplish same quality of guiding you would normally get from any OAG?


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Rick J
Postmaster
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Reged: 03/01/08

Loc: Mantrap Lake, MN
Re: The end of OAG? new [Re: orion69]
      #6133353 - 10/12/13 04:05 PM

They've been "coming out" with this for several years now. I remember hearing it was only months away at least two years ago. Maybe this time they mean it. Sounds like there were more technical hurdles than they expected.

There are some things a OAG can't handle, tracking a comet for instance as it is in the field of view. True there is now a guider that can do that but it only works with chips smaller than Mike or I use. While the Paramount will track a NEO making a pass it does so based on its velocity at the start of the image run. With very close ones this is not good enough as the velocity changes too much even in 30 minutes time such that by the end of the run the asteroid is making short trails. This system could eliminate this issue. NEOs are usually bright enough to be seen in a guide scope at closest approach when this becomes an issue for me.

It will be interesting to see how well it lives up to its billing when it finally does come out. I'll be waiting for their reports before considering it however. Often takes a year or so to get complex things like this ready for prime time. No matter how much testing is done it seems users find glitches no tester came across.

Rick


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vpcirc
Post Laureate


Reged: 12/09/09

Loc: Merced CA
Re: The end of OAG? new [Re: orion69]
      #6133355 - 10/12/13 04:06 PM

I'll see if they have a flyer and scan it

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andysea
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 09/03/10

Loc: Seattle, WA
Re: The end of OAG? new [Re: vpcirc]
      #6133403 - 10/12/13 04:41 PM

Thanks Mike! Keep us posted.

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vpcirc
Post Laureate


Reged: 12/09/09

Loc: Merced CA
Re: The end of OAG? new [Re: andysea]
      #6133844 - 10/12/13 08:48 PM

Sorry, no documentation, but everyone there said within the next 30 days it will be released. They were talking to Planewave about adapting it to each of their OTA's. It looked operational and I don't think they would of been highlighting it if it wasn't a reality. No commitment was made on multistar guiding that I heard.

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jaddbd
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/18/05

Loc: Woodbine, MD
Re: The end of OAG? new [Re: vpcirc]
      #6133878 - 10/12/13 09:10 PM Attachment (44 downloads)

Is that the "differential guiding" that they have been working on for a while?

Not sure if this is what they are talking about actually becoming a reality.

Here is a blurb:

Differential Guiding: SBIG has a patent pending on a new guiding technique using an artificial guide star. Although artificial stars are used in a variety of techniques on professional telescopes, the SBIG technique is somewhat different and easy to implement on amateur scopes. An artificial star is created near the focal plane of the imaging CCD and an image of this star is retro-reflected into a separate guide scope. By using one real star in the FOV of the guide scope and the artificial star image reflected from the main scope, the difference in separation caused by telescope pointing errors is used to make the corrections to the telescope drive. There is no problem with differential deflection and a single CCD external guider can be used to monitor both the real and artificial guide stars. The artificial star image is not seen by the imaging CCD.

and a diagram.


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jaddbd
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/18/05

Loc: Woodbine, MD
Re: The end of OAG? new [Re: jaddbd]
      #6133883 - 10/12/13 09:12 PM Attachment (40 downloads)

And another...

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vpcirc
Post Laureate


Reged: 12/09/09

Loc: Merced CA
Re: The end of OAG? new [Re: jaddbd]
      #6133933 - 10/12/13 09:54 PM

Yep that's what they said will be ready in 30 days

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Iver
member
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Reged: 10/12/07

Loc: Monterey County,Ca.
Re: The end of OAG? new [Re: vpcirc]
      #6134033 - 10/12/13 11:11 PM

Toward the end of this youtube clip from NEAF last year they explain the product.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti8wvBkF2U8


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pfile
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/14/09

Re: The end of OAG? new [Re: Iver]
      #6134096 - 10/13/13 12:00 AM

yes unfortunately the same prototype was at AIC last year, so i hope they are really getting it done.

but these guys know what they are doing, so i'm sure we'll see it soon.


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PGW Steve
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/03/06

Loc: Winnipeg, Canada
Re: The end of OAG? new [Re: pfile]
      #6134179 - 10/13/13 01:22 AM

Sounds like a really neat technique. I can see the importance of not having tube currents in an SCT, I don't know how much the 'boiling' air in the tube will upset the artificial star.
Coming soon, chasing tube seeing and sky seeing. :-P


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Mike Wiles
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 02/04/09

Loc: Goodyear, AZ
Re: The end of OAG? new [Re: PGW Steve]
      #6134223 - 10/13/13 02:10 AM

What benefit does this system offer over an off axis guider? An off axis guider is an awesome way to get rid of differential flexure, reduce weight and get spot on guiding at long focal lengths. With today's more sensitive guiding cameras, the old issue of finding a bright enough guide star for on OAG is all but eliminated as well.

While I applaud SBIG's effort and I'm a big fan of their products.....it seems like a million dollar solution to a 50 cent problem. It's heavier, more expensive and has more points of potential failure.


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vpcirc
Post Laureate


Reged: 12/09/09

Loc: Merced CA
Re: The end of OAG? new [Re: Mike Wiles]
      #6134540 - 10/13/13 09:14 AM Attachment (24 downloads)

Mike for those using a rotator on their system this is a godsend provided it works as promises. They don't have to take flats for every angle that used during the night including flips. They don't have to rotate to find a guide star if they don't need to. It makes things far less complicated. If you're shooting with a refractor, yep, no value to you. In that case AP has come up the perfect solution, but I'm not here to argue what's better if you love OAG then that's wonderful, and why would you care. For those of us who want a different solution hopefully there's options.

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