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Equipment Discussions >> Binoculars

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JustaBoy
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 06/19/12

Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6150273 - 10/21/13 05:28 PM

Jon never said that he would take a 80mm F.5 ST, he said:

"I will take a fast 80mm refractor"

My choice personally would be a ED80 (80mm F/7.5 ED).
-Chuck


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Tony Flanders
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Reged: 05/18/06

Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6151104 - 10/22/13 05:19 AM

Quote:

Jon dollar for dollar, would you take a 80mm F/5 achromatic refractor plus tripod over the convenience of 15x70 or 25x100 binoculars?




Ummm ...

An 80-mm refractor and 15x70 binoculars are comparable in many ways -- similar light-gathering power, similar weight and bulk. On the whole, I would say that an 80-mm f/5 refractor is clearly more portable and convenient than mounted 15x70 binoculars -- but not by a large margin.

However, 25x100s are a totally different beast. I don't see how anybody could put them in the same class as an 80-mm f/5 refractor as far as portability and convenience is concerned.


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Jon Isaacs
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6151723 - 10/22/13 01:29 PM

Quote:

Jon dollar for dollar, would you take a 80mm F/5 achromatic refractor plus tripod over the convenience of 15x70 or 25x100 binoculars?
I prefer the experience of binocular vision with both eyes, I see better and deeper.

I think the turning point for me is approx. 120mm or 5" refractor.
I would add a binoviewer. I assume we are using this for low power sweeps.




A few thoughts:

In my experience, my ST-80 mounted on my favorite Bogen 3040 tripod is much more convenient and comfortable than properly mounted straight-though "giant binoculars."

I suspect I would choose binoculars with angled interchangeable angled eyepieces over the ST-80 but the difficulty viewing objects that not near the horizon makes straight-through binoculars a problem with me. Particularly when viewing from suburban skies, it is important to view objects that are well above the horizon...

But as it is, I prefer the versatility of the ST-80, particularly my ST-80 which has a 2 inch focuser and is capable of a 6 degree TFoV. Sweeping the Milky Way with a 6.2mm exit pupil, a 6.0 degree TFoV at 13x, with or without a nebula filter, is something not to be missed.

The versatility of the ST-80 is important to me because one moment I might be sweeping the sky at 20x and I might stumble upon something interesting and with the ST-80, I have the eyepiece rack right there on the tripod and I can zoom in to just possible magnification. In that sense, because of the ability to increase the magnification, the ST-80 goes deeper than a pair of 25x100s...

I have an extra two ST-80s I acquired with the idea of building my own twin telescope. I would not call it binoculars since the image will be reversed left to right, the way I prefer and it is simpler.

Jon


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saemark30
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/21/12

Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: KennyJ]
      #6151751 - 10/22/13 01:50 PM

Quote:

There appear to be elements of either selective recall or genuine unawareness of the history of "Giant binoculars" commercially available.

My interest in 100mm binoculars goes back to a time long before any were manufactured in China, and I can remember typical prices of, for example, 14x100, 20x100 and 25x100 models made in Japan being the equivalent in REAL terms of two to three as much as even the best of the most recent Chinese made models, which are probably superior to them in every way.

Kenny



I remember seeing the ads some 15 yrs ago.
Orion sold a pair of 25x100 starting under $999 but went up to $1299 last time I recall. This was before Ethos and a huge investment. I don't know if the coatings are as good as todays binoculars but I heard from a dealer they were often in poor collimation. I don't believe they are any better than a premium Chinese 25x100.

Looking over my Edmund 4" reflector and kellner eyepieces, Tasco binoculars --I see we are living in an incredible time for astronomy. We never had gear this inexpensive and of decent quality.


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JustaBoy
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 06/19/12

Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6151776 - 10/22/13 02:17 PM

"I see we are living in an incredible time for astronomy. We never had gear this inexpensive and of decent quality."


You can certainly say that again!

Back when I was a kid (50s/60s) this stuff took ALL of my money:-(

Come to think of it; What's changed? :-)

-Chuck


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saemark30
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/21/12

Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #6151883 - 10/22/13 03:23 PM

Quote:



Ummm ...

An 80-mm refractor and 15x70 binoculars are comparable in many ways -- similar light-gathering power, similar weight and bulk. On the whole, I would say that an 80-mm f/5 refractor is clearly more portable and convenient than mounted 15x70 binoculars -- but not by a large margin.




Why not have both?
I use 15x70 handheld while viewing in a gravity chair.
Two eye viewing is a lot more comfortable and immersive than 1.
Now the 80ED is another great telescope, I really like its optics but it is a bit bigger and heavier and more expensive than the ST80. It works great with 2" diagonal and eyepieces. I wish they come out with a 90mm-94mm F/7 version that would be like an AP Stowaway and show a bit more. The 100mm ED F/9 is a bit too long and slow.


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KennyJ
The British Flash
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Reged: 04/27/03

Loc: Lancashire UK
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6151896 - 10/22/13 03:29 PM

< I don't believe they are any better than a premium Chinese 25x100.>

Neither do I, which is why I wrote:

< models made in Japan being the equivalent in REAL terms of two to three as much as even the best of the most recent Chinese made models, which are probably superior to them in every way.>

Kenny


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Jon Isaacs
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6151911 - 10/22/13 03:38 PM

Quote:

Why not have both?
I use 15x70 handheld while viewing in a gravity chair.
Two eye viewing is a lot more comfortable and immersive than 1.
Now the 80ED is another great telescope, I really like its optics but it is a bit bigger and heavier and more expensive than the ST80. It works great with 2" diagonal and eyepieces. I wish they come out with a 90mm-94mm F/7 version that would be like an AP Stowaway and show a bit more. The 100mm ED F/9 is a bit too long and slow.




Comfort and immersivity (how's that for a word) have a lot to do with the eyepiece.. I have never really looked through a binocular eyepiece that was as immersive as a 2 inch like the 20mm Type 2 or the 31mm type 5... BIg wide fields, well corrected, large eye lenses.

For DSOs, there is not a lot of difference between an ED-80 and an ST-80...

Why not have both Giant Binos and a nice fast refractor?

If both are a choice, great.. But equipment exists in the context of other equipment. That is why, rather than recommending my favorite, I first asked the OP, what did he already have.

YMMV

Jon


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Tony Flanders
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Reged: 05/18/06

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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6152991 - 10/23/13 05:27 AM

Quote:

Comfort and immersivity (how's that for a word) have a lot to do with the eyepiece.. I have never really looked through a binocular eyepiece that was as immersive as a 2 inch like the 20mm Type 2 or the 31mm type 5... BIg wide fields, well corrected, large eye lenses.




That obviously depends on the individual -- both with respect to two-eyed viewing and with respect to wide-field eyepieces.

I find ultrawide eyepieces (AFOV > 70 degrees) distinctly less comfortable than narrower eyepieces, and neither more nor less immersive. And while I'm not a two-eye fanatic like many people who correspond in this group, I do find two-eyed viewing quite a bit more immersive than one-eyed viewing.

So even though I spend considerably more time with my 70-mm refractor than with my 15x70 binoculars, and on the whole find the refractor easier and more convenient due to the 90-degree viewing angle, I do also find that the 15x70s continue to do a job that the 70-mm refractor doesn't do nearly as well.


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JustaBoy
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 06/19/12

Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #6153226 - 10/23/13 09:21 AM

^^^The Voice of Reason^^^

-Chuck


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saemark30
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/21/12

Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: JustaBoy]
      #6153565 - 10/23/13 12:21 PM

Let's not forget that binoculars present the same orientation as eye view, whereas the refractor can present inverted L to R, inverted up and down, or a combination of the 2.
That really is messy working with paper charts.

Also, those AFOV>70 eyepieces cost more than a pair of subgiants or cheap giant binoculars.

Finally nebula filters on 80mm refractors are wasting precious photons, they work better with >= 8" telescopes.

I think it takes a 120mm refractor to match the light gathering power of 100mm binoculars. One can buy the APM ones with interchangable eyepieces.


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schang
sage


Reged: 04/24/13

Loc: columbia, sc
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6153731 - 10/23/13 01:40 PM

You can get RACI diagonal or a 45 degrees one on a refractor to have the same view as a bino. Personal preference is one of the major reason people chose a bino or a low power refractor. I, for one feel more comfortable using a bino because I do not have to close one eye while observing with the other one. Doing that for a while longer, it does not do me good, particularly on the close side of the eye. Using both eyes also give you a sense of 3D feeling, immersive or not.

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JustaBoy
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 06/19/12

Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: schang]
      #6153759 - 10/23/13 01:55 PM

I never close my unused eye.

Practice this long enough and your brain will ignore the off eye.

Less eyestrain.

-Chuck


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schang
sage


Reged: 04/24/13

Loc: columbia, sc
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: JustaBoy]
      #6153807 - 10/23/13 02:23 PM

Huh?? you can do that??? I found myself unable to concentrate doing that. I do not know if I practice ignoring the other eye's image, what effect it will cause me long term wise, physically and mentally.

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JustaBoy
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 06/19/12

Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: schang]
      #6153832 - 10/23/13 02:38 PM

I think that you will find that I am not alone in doing this..

Just practice at night when using your scope. Things will not be so obvious in your unused eye in the dimmer light.

As for potential harm, I've been doing this for over 50yrs, and I can still see a little bit:-)

Take care,
-Chuck


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Tony Flanders
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Reged: 05/18/06

Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6153834 - 10/23/13 02:38 PM

Quote:

Nebula filters on 80mm refractors are wasting precious photons, they work better with >= 8" telescopes.




I don't agree with that statement. When viewing objects that shine almost entirely in emission lines, such as the Veil Nebula, nebula filters don't waste photons.

The view of the Veil as a whole through a properly filtered 80-mm refractor is stupendous.


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JustaBoy
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 06/19/12

Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #6153845 - 10/23/13 02:45 PM

I't about the size of the exit pupil, not the size of the scope.

-Chuck


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saemark30
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/21/12

Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #6154022 - 10/23/13 04:19 PM

Quote:



I don't agree with that statement. When viewing objects that shine almost entirely in emission lines, such as the Veil Nebula, nebula filters don't waste photons.

The view of the Veil as a whole through a properly filtered 80-mm refractor is stupendous.



Under what circumstances have you seen the Veil in a properly filtered 80mm refractor, using what filter and mag.skies? The Veil radiates in more than OIII.

Some would say a OIII filter is best for larger exit pupils say 2-3mm.


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Jon Isaacs
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6154823 - 10/24/13 04:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:



I don't agree with that statement. When viewing objects that shine almost entirely in emission lines, such as the Veil Nebula, nebula filters don't waste photons.

The view of the Veil as a whole through a properly filtered 80-mm refractor is stupendous.



Under what circumstances have you seen the Veil in a properly filtered 80mm refractor, using what filter and mag.skies? The Veil radiates in more than OIII.

Some would say a OIII filter is best for larger exit pupils say 2-3mm.




In my experience, the Veil is better seen in any telescope with a nebula filter, regardless of the darkness of the sky. I regularly see the Veil in a 3 or 4 inch refractor from skies where the Milky Way blazes overhead. From my urban backyard, I have seen the Veil in a vary of instruments including a 4 inch but always with a nebula filter.

It's worth remembering that telescopes and binoculars cannot increase the surface brightness of an extended object like the Veil over naked eye, they can only make it larger,

In my mind, it important to keep this thread in the context of the original question. My viewpoint is that the things a pair of giant binoculars does better than a small refractor are of limited interest when there is significant light pollution, i.e. suburban skies.

The big, low power views are most engaging when the skies are dark and clear.

Jon


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Tony Flanders
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6154889 - 10/24/13 06:58 AM

Quote:

Under what circumstances have you seen the Veil in a properly filtered 80mm refractor, using what filter and mag.skies?




Actually, my refractors are 70-mm and 100-mm, but I've viewed the Veil in both. As it happens, my very best view of all was in my 4.5-inch StarBlast.

You will necessarily use huge exit pupils to view the Veil as a whole. It's a gigantic object, and can only be viewed at ultralow magnifications. That view through the StarBlast was using a 25-mm eyepiece, for a 6-mm exit pupil.

An O-III is indisputably the filter of choice for the Veil.

Seeing the entire Veil in all its glory requires dark skies. Subtle features such as Pickering' Wedge simply cant be seen from typical suburbs, filter or no filter.


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