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Equipment Discussions >> Binoculars

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KarlL
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Reged: 12/14/12

Loc: Northern Illinois
Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies
      #6135714 - 10/13/13 07:47 PM

Does it make sense to invest in giant binos living under suburban skies? I can see virtually every star in the Dipper and its handle ( right below a street light). The light pollution is surprisingly mild to moderate. Under good seeing, the sky near the zenith is excellent.

Would screw-in light-pollution filters help in making giants worthwhile?

Regards,

Karl


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edwincjones
Close Enough
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Reged: 04/10/04

Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: KarlL]
      #6135823 - 10/13/13 08:55 PM

Quote:

Does it make sense to invest in giant binos living under suburban skies?

Regards,

Karl





yes

I have a 25x150MT fuji in mag4-4.5 skies.
Wish it were darker, but this is where I live
and this is where I observe the most.

It makes more sense to me than getting big optics
and only using one or two weeks a year
in truly dark sky locations

edj


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daniel_h
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 03/08/08

Loc: VIC, Australia
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: edwincjones]
      #6135942 - 10/13/13 10:11 PM

re light pollution i prefer to view with a smaler exit pupil, eg 30x100 is preferred over 20x100
visualy the filters i have tried have never really won me over re:light pollution -photographically they are great


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Man in a Tub
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Reged: 10/28/08

Loc: Fogpatch, CA
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: daniel_h]
      #6136024 - 10/13/13 10:48 PM

A decent 20x80 (or even a 15x70) with a good mount would be just fine.

Edited by Man in a Tub (10/13/13 11:11 PM)


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Ryuno
sage


Reged: 05/09/13

Loc: Tokyo
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: KarlL]
      #6136039 - 10/13/13 10:56 PM

Quote:

Does it make sense to invest in giant binos living under suburban skies? I can see virtually every star in the Dipper and its handle ( right below a street light).




I would definitely say Yes. Aperture wins always, even in the city. I live in the middle of Tokyo. My Kowa 20/50x82 shows a lot more than the Canon 10x42 e.g.
And my 12.5" Dob shows more again. Recently I had a very nice view of M42, although I could practically see nothing with the naked eye, due to heavy light pollution.

Heinz


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hallelujah
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Reged: 07/14/06

Loc: North Star over Colorado
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: KarlL]
      #6136081 - 10/13/13 11:24 PM

Quote:

Does it make sense to invest in giant binos living under suburban skies?

Karl




Most definitely!

One of my favorites, under light polluted skies, is the 30x80 giant binocular.

Stan


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KarlL
sage
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Reged: 12/14/12

Loc: Northern Illinois
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: KarlL]
      #6136509 - 10/14/13 09:34 AM

I'm really surprised by the responses I've gotten so far. I've thought of binos as "dark skies" instruments.

It's very encouraging.

Regards,

Karl


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Mike Lynch
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Reged: 04/07/06

Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: KarlL]
      #6136627 - 10/14/13 10:44 AM

Karl,

I, too, would say I was surprised at these responses, except that within the last couple of weeks, I took my 15x70 and 20x80 binoculars out into my light-polluted back yard because the October skies had become pretty clear. When I mounted them on a steady tripod with a newly-bought grip-action ballhead, the number of dim deep-sky objects that I could view was a pleasant surprise!

I think the steadiness provided by the tripod set-up made a major difference!


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Tony Flanders
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Reged: 05/18/06

Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: KarlL]
      #6137269 - 10/14/13 03:18 PM

Quote:

I'm really surprised by the responses I've gotten so far. I've thought of binos as "dark skies" instruments.




Of course binoculars do better under dark skies -- just like any other astronomical instrument. And indeed, I would probably argue that low-power views (the kind provided by binoculars) are hurt even more than high-powered views by light pollution.

Nonetheless, binoculars of all sizes do quite well in light-polluted surroundings. For instance, all the winter Messier clusters are readily visible even from a bright city through 15x70 binoculars. Many of them are even partially resolved.


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hallelujah
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Reged: 07/14/06

Loc: North Star over Colorado
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: KarlL]
      #6138169 - 10/15/13 12:20 AM

Karl,

Take a look at this link:

http://saberdoesthestars.wordpress.com/2011/07/05/saber-does-the-stars/

Stan


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Jon Isaacs
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #6138420 - 10/15/13 07:13 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm really surprised by the responses I've gotten so far. I've thought of binos as "dark skies" instruments.




Of course binoculars do better under dark skies -- just like any other astronomical instrument. And indeed, I would probably argue that low-power views (the kind provided by binoculars) are hurt even more than high-powered views by light pollution.

Nonetheless, binoculars of all sizes do quite well in light-polluted surroundings. For instance, all the winter Messier clusters are readily visible even from a bright city through 15x70 binoculars. Many of them are even partially resolved.




I have to think it all depends on the individual and their own personal preferences. Giant binoculars are quite an investment. When all is said and done, a good tripod, a good mount, the binoculars themselves which hopefully will have angled eyepieces for viewing comfort.. for a good pair of 100s, it's probably the other side of $1000..

What are you going to look at? How often are you going to look, what other scopes and binoculars do you already have???

I have a pair of 20x80s, not really giant binoculars but good sized. There's a lot more to see in a decent 100mm F/6 refractor.

Jon


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Eric63
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 06/16/12

Loc: Ottawa, Ontario
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6138461 - 10/15/13 07:46 AM

What there is to see is one thing, but the experience of how we see it is another! I had a 4"F5 refractor that was nice, but if I am going the scan the sky with a small aperture, I much prefer the visual effect of the binoculars.

Eric


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Jon Isaacs
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Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Eric63]
      #6138578 - 10/15/13 09:00 AM

Quote:

What there is to see is one thing, but the experience of how we see it is another! I had a 4"F5 refractor that was nice, but if I am going the scan the sky with a small aperture, I much prefer the visual effect of the binoculars.

Eric




As I said, it's a very personal choice. But that said, a 4 inch refractor will show a lot more than than a pair of 25x100's because of ability to increase the magnification. And, as the level of light pollution increases, scanning the night sky at low powers less and less interesting.

I can tell you what my own personal preferences are but that's not what this is about. Karl asked a question, everyone seemed to encourage him to go ahead and get the Giant binoculars, I am saying, hey wait a minute... let's back up, find out what sort of equipment Karl already has, what he likes to look at, how much is he willing to spend, is he OK with straight through binoculars etc, etc.

Jon


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Tony Flanders
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Reged: 05/18/06

Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6138672 - 10/15/13 09:54 AM

Quote:

Karl asked a question, everyone seemed to encourage him to go ahead and get the Giant binoculars, I am saying, hey wait a minute... let's back up, find out what sort of equipment Karl already has, what he likes to look at, how much is he willing to spend, is he OK with straight through binoculars etc, etc.




Good point. Especially since his question about screw-in filters indicates a lack of familiarity with the equipment available. I would say the difficulty of fitting conventional binoculars with filters (compared to the extreme ease with telescopes) is one of their biggest drawbacks.

The term "giant binoculars" is also pretty vague. It might mean anything from 15x70s to 40x150s to a binocular telescope.

So the answer is: Yes, if you understand what giant binoculars are, and their good and bad points in general, and have clear reasons for wanting to buy them as opposed to other equipment, then the fact that you're observing from the suburbs shouldn't be an obstacle.

However, somebody genuinely familiar with giant binos probably wouldn't have asked the question in the first place; the answer would have been obvious.


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planetmalc
sage


Reged: 10/21/09

Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: KarlL]
      #6138810 - 10/15/13 11:13 AM

Quote:

Does it make sense to invest in giant binos living under suburban skies?




I use giant binoculars - in various sizes from 70mm to 125mm - BECAUSE I live under suburban skies! I can't imagine doing any serious astronomy with less than 50mm aperture except on the very best nights.


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Tony Flanders
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: planetmalc]
      #6138891 - 10/15/13 12:01 PM

Quote:

I use giant binoculars - in various sizes from 70mm to 125mm - BECAUSE I live under suburban skies! I can't imagine doing any serious astronomy with less than 50mm aperture except on the very best nights.




What counts as "serious astronomy?"

I'm very reluctant to call anything that I do serious, but I've done a great deal of stargazing in cities and suburbs with 7x35 and 10x30 binoculars. And a fair bit with other, much smaller instruments.


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planetmalc
sage


Reged: 10/21/09

Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #6138914 - 10/15/13 12:16 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I use giant binoculars - in various sizes from 70mm to 125mm - BECAUSE I live under suburban skies! I can't imagine doing any serious astronomy with less than 50mm aperture except on the very best nights.




What counts as "serious astronomy?"

I'm very reluctant to call anything that I do serious, but I've done a great deal of stargazing in cities and suburbs with 7x35 and 10x30 binoculars. And a fair bit with other, much smaller instruments.




In this context, 'serious' = 'satisfying'. I've tried these smaller apertures (the 30mm - 42mm of what I call 'daylight glasses') and always felt like I was using the wrong tool for the job because of how little I could see, while my with-me-at-all-times bins - 6 x 18 Minolta UC (when walking) or 9 x 21 Opticron Sequoiah (for cycling) don't seem much of an improvement on naked-eye. I don't even consider 10 x 50 as the 'right' glass for quick backyard astronomy under my skies and use a 12 x 63 (actually 12 x 57) Optolyth roof instead.


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saemark30
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/21/12

Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #6138924 - 10/15/13 12:23 PM

There is very investment needed to purchase a pair of 15x70 for suburban skies. It is the fastest grab and go scope for nights when the skies are less than pristine.
The next level is a pair of 25x100 binocs. I find these work even in urban skies for brighter Messier objects such as large open clusters M45, double cluster, M31 etc.
I prefer 25x100 binocs to 4" refractors for wide area sweeping because 2 eyes are better than one.
For smaller targets like M57 or M13 a 4" isn't really big enough anyways and a 10" telescope is much better.
So to summarize for me the 25x100 binocs have replaced my smaller telescopes under 5", at least 90% of the time.


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Eric63
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 06/16/12

Loc: Ottawa, Ontario
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #6138940 - 10/15/13 12:30 PM

I think the key word here is stargazing. If I'm going to gaze at stars, I much prefer two eyed viewing. I have tried it with a short tube refractor and reflector and in my opinion the wide field stereo correct angle view of binoculars is much more pleasing (again, in my opinion). I often have a telescope on hand too for zooming in on various objects, but my largest aperture is 6 and in a suburban sky, the number of objects that will really stand out is somewhat limited. The Triangulum Galaxy in my 6 scope does not look too much different than in my 70mm binoculars (just a bit brighter).

Ergonomics is also another factor. If you are going to look high in the sky for any length of time, then a telescope is a better instrument. I like my scopes for closeup views of brights DSO, planets and the moon and my binoculars for stargazing.

Eric


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SMark
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 08/29/11

Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Eric63]
      #6139004 - 10/15/13 12:55 PM

I own a few that would be considered "Giant" binoculars. What I have found over-the-years of observing through city lights is that the weight of the binocular in question has a direct correlation on how much I choose to use it. Even a great night sky here in the city isn't all that great, so it sometimes takes extra motivation to get the big ones out to use them. I'm always more likely to take out one of the 5 lb. binoculars than I am to take out one of the 10 lb. binoculars. If I had the night sky of the Australian Outback I'm sure I could get more motivated to set up the biggest of the bunch.

But maybe it's just me. My back sure isn't what it used to be...


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Jon Isaacs
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Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6140570 - 10/16/13 10:13 AM

Quote:

I prefer 25x100 binocs to 4" refractors for wide area sweeping because 2 eyes are better than one.




I am the other way..

If the quality of the views through the 25x100's were equal to those of the 4 inch refractor and if the binoculars were equally comfortable viewing the majority of the sky, if I could use filters and eyepieces with large eye lenses.

But as it is, with my 4 inch refractor, I can can the skies at 17x with a 4.5 degree TFoV and 5.7mm exit pupil, at 27x with a 3 degree TFoV at a 4mm exit pupil, zoom in and observe a small detail at 200x... or 130x or whatever is most appropriate. The viewing position is comfortable, the setup is easy and the scope and mount fit easily through a narrow door way..

I have seen the Veil in my 4 inch from my red-zone backyard in the middle of 1.3million other good people because I am able to use the right filters and eyepieces.

The things that giant binoculars do best are best done under dark skies.. The majority of things that are doable from urban skies are better done in a telescope...

YMMV

Jon


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saemark30
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/21/12

Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6140795 - 10/16/13 12:21 PM

What telescope/ filter/ eyepiece did you use to see the Veil Jon in the city?
I like to use both types of instruments. I always use binos first.
If the skies look promising and I'm not too tired I bring out my big scopes and mount. Most of the time it isn't worth the effort.


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cw00
member


Reged: 08/16/11

Loc: San Diego, CA
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6141187 - 10/16/13 03:44 PM

I think it really depends on what you want to see. If you want to see DSOs using nebula filters, getting a 5" acro like ST120 may be a better choice than getting a pair of 25x100 giant bino. I really enjoy my 20x110 bino at a dark site without filters and using two eyes instead of one is just so relaxing. But in my light polluted backyard, the bino does not work well and the screw-in filters do not help much at all even though many bino sellers advertise the use of nebula filters. The total weight of a ST120 and a sturdy skywatcher az4 mount is about the same as that of a giant bino on a sturdy tripod. You will be able to carry the entire setup out in one trip.

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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6141439 - 10/16/13 06:08 PM

Quote:

What telescope/ filter/ eyepiece did you use to see the Veil Jon in the city?
I like to use both types of instruments. I always use binos first.
If the skies look promising and I'm not too tired I bring out my big scopes and mount. Most of the time it isn't worth the effort.




I have observed the Veil, or better said, detected the Veil, from my urban backyard with an TeleVue NP-101, 31mm Nagler and a Celestron O-III. In larger scopes, it's better, it actually surprisingly good in my 13.1 inch F/5.5 Dob.

From my urban backyard, I just about always start out with a scope, I gauge the size of the scope based on on my energy level... Bigger scopes take long to acclimate so I need to get a head start.

Binoculars are companions to the scope...

Jon


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saemark30
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/21/12

Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6142888 - 10/17/13 12:46 PM

I have seen globulars M22, M13 and the ring nebula M57 under full moon conditions in 25x100 binocs. I can't wait to try mine under dark skies. Messier marathons should be a cinch with them.

Jon your 31mm N costs much more than my 25x100s, let alone your 4" setup with mount!

I have seen the Veil in a 13.1" with a Lumicon OIII filter, but not in anything less than a 8" in urban condition.


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Chuck Hards
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: SMark]
      #6142924 - 10/17/13 01:10 PM

Comet PanSTARRS was excellent through 15x70mm, 20x70mm & 25x100mm binos from my very light-polluted suburban back yard. They work well on stellar objects such as open clusters and the brighter globulars, as well. It's only galaxies and fainter nebulae that really suffer.

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Jon Isaacs
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Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6142983 - 10/17/13 01:43 PM

Quote:

I have seen globulars M22, M13 and the ring nebula M57 under full moon conditions in 25x100 binocs. I can't wait to try mine under dark skies. Messier marathons should be a cinch with them.

Jon your 31mm N costs much more than my 25x100s, let alone your 4" setup with mount!

I have seen the Veil in a 13.1" with a Lumicon OIII filter, but not in anything less than a 8" in urban condition.





I will say this, you will have great fun out there when the skies are clear and dark...

I also have a 100mm F/6 Achromat that I often use, I would suspect the total investment, scope, mount, diagonal, a decent widefield eyepiece would be about the same cost as a pair of 25x100s and a suitable mount. The views in the 100mm F/6 are not so perfect as the NP-101 but otherwise they are quite similar.

For me, I am looking at everything I can see.. double stars, planets, galaxies, nebulae... NGC6572 is ~6 arc-second magnitude 9 planetary, very small but very bright. It's a good one for light polluted skies but not much to see at 25x..


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faackanders2
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/28/11

Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: SMark]
      #6143765 - 10/17/13 09:17 PM

Yes, becuse they are easier to take with you wherever you may travel.

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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: faackanders2]
      #6144817 - 10/18/13 12:46 PM

Quote:

Yes, becuse they are easier to take with you wherever you may travel.




Easier than what? Giant binoculars require a serious mount and a case. A fast refractor and see few eyepieces takes up less space and manages with a more compact mount.

Jon


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SMark
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 08/29/11

Loc: Atlanta, GA USA
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6145487 - 10/18/13 07:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Yes, becuse they are easier to take with you wherever you may travel.




Easier than what? Giant binoculars require a serious mount and a case. A fast refractor and see few eyepieces takes up less space and manages with a more compact mount.

Jon




Well, this started as a comparison between 5 lb. giant binoculars and 10 lb. giant binoculars.


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curiosidad
sage


Reged: 06/09/11

Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: SMark]
      #6146628 - 10/19/13 12:35 PM

Hello,
As an example:
A few years ago I could use some time one 100mm Miyauchi 20X/37X eyepiece.
Well, Flame Nebula not see anything at all in the backyard of my house, but when I went out to the field, is very well appreciated., Beautiful.
And so with many objects, what a difference!
A greeting


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faackanders2
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/28/11

Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6146890 - 10/19/13 03:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:

What telescope/ filter/ eyepiece did you use to see the Veil Jon in the city?
I like to use both types of instruments. I always use binos first.
If the skies look promising and I'm not too tired I bring out my big scopes and mount. Most of the time it isn't worth the effort.




I have observed the Veil, or better said, detected the Veil, from my urban backyard with an TeleVue NP-101, 31mm Nagler and a Celestron O-III. In larger scopes, it's better, it actually surprisingly good in my 13.1 inch F/5.5 Dob.

From my urban backyard, I just about always start out with a scope, I gauge the size of the scope based on on my energy level... Bigger scopes take long to acclimate so I need to get a head start.

Binoculars are companions to the scope...

Jon




I have never been able to see the viel in binos. 9x63 & 10x63 don't have aperture required to see when pointing at zenith. 25x100's on camera tripod not able to point to zenith to even look. That is where having large 45 or 90 deg binos would be a benefit for observing, but at a significantly greater cost.


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saemark30
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/21/12

Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: faackanders2]
      #6147203 - 10/19/13 06:09 PM

Some people handhold their giant binoculars while lying on the ground or in a chair. That is why it is easier than to drag out the entire telescope setup wait an hr and see the clouds roll in.
Some objects like M101 cannot be seen in suburban areas and there is a point where faint objects such as the veil and horsehead is better suited for larger telescopes and filters. Another option is to use an electronic eyepiece or camera but that is a very different experience.
So for the original question, yes it is worth it to spend money on giant binoculars such as 25x100 because they are simply going to cost more later and might not be produced in the same quantities.


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KennyJ
The British Flash
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Loc: Lancashire UK
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6147280 - 10/19/13 07:03 PM

< So for the original question, yes it is worth it to spend money on giant binoculars such as 25x100 because they are simply going to cost more later and might not be produced in the same quantities.>

I'm afraid I don't understand the implication here that these kind of binoculars "are going to cost MORE in the future".

Why?

Kenny


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KarlL
sage
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Reged: 12/14/12

Loc: Northern Illinois
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: KennyJ]
      #6147420 - 10/19/13 08:55 PM

I really appreciate everyone's input.

To answer Jon's question, I have an 8 inch f/6 that I'm very happy with.

The question regarding binoculars and light pollution was speculative. I'm sticking with the reflector. It's a very good all-rounder. I'm in the process of saving for a new focuser and ultra wide angle eyepieces.

Regards,

Karl


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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
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Loc: Oort Cloud 9
Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: KarlL]
      #6147475 - 10/19/13 09:45 PM

Using 100mm binoculars, it's possible to spot almost every Messier object under light-polluted urban skies. Even if some of the faintest targets are only glimpsed with averted vision, they can be "bagged". Under average NELM 4 to 4.5 skies, I spotted every one except for a couple of the galaxies that eluded me.

Out of all the gear I used over the years, under urban skies, I had the most success with the big binoculars.

Best regards and clear dark skies,

MikeG


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Glassthrower
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #6147478 - 10/19/13 09:47 PM

Quote:


Milton Wilcox R.I.P





Kenny, your sigline reminded me. I miss Milt. It's been a long time, but I am glad he is not forgotten. I wonder what happened to that awesome Kowa big binocular he had?


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: faackanders2]
      #6147920 - 10/20/13 06:18 AM

Quote:


I have never been able to see the viel in binos. 9x63 & 10x63 don't have aperture required to see when pointing at zenith.




For what it's worth: I can see the Veil with my 10x50s from a relatively dark site that's on the desert side of the mountains east of San Diego.

Jon


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: KarlL]
      #6147923 - 10/20/13 06:28 AM

Quote:

I really appreciate everyone's input.

To answer Jon's question, I have an 8 inch f/6 that I'm very happy with.

The question regarding binoculars and light pollution was speculative. I'm sticking with the reflector. It's a very good all-rounder. I'm in the process of saving for a new focuser and ultra wide angle eyepieces.

Regards,

Karl




Karl:

Just to add to the confusion..

I do enjoy the combination of a larger scope and some sort of smaller refractor(s). In my mind, the question is, should that be a single refractor, i.e. telescope, or a pair, i.e. binoculars.

From suburban skies, the advantages of a 3 or 4 inch relatively fast telescope are significant so that's a place to start. There is not much one will see in 25x100s that won't be seen in a 4 inch scope but there is a lot that one can see with a 4 inch scope that cannot be seen in the 25x100s.

But everyone needs a good pair of 35mm-50mm binoculars..

Jon


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claudedenis
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6147958 - 10/20/13 07:21 AM

As a beginner I must say:but everyone needs a good pair of 35mm-50mm-70mm because United Optics ms marine 15x70(alias: Oberwerk Ultra) is a big improvement,for me better than a premium 10x50 pair.
It shows a lot on a monopod,which is a very light equipment.
Under my light pollued skies,first step done.

Second step would be problematic as I prefer observing with my two eyes for several reasons,it gives me more fun and informations.
To follow the wise advice given by Jon Isaacs I need a binoviewer+refractor.
So,what binoviewer+refractor do the same work(and more)as United Optics 28x110 binoculars for the same weight,overall volume and price?
Specifications:
Magnification28x,Objective lens diameter110mm,
PrismsBAK4,Porro Prisms,
FocusingIndividual,eyepiece focusing,
Eye relief18mm,Apparent field of view60,
Exit pupil diameter3,92mm,
CoatingFull broadband multicoating
Weightca. 6kg
I forget rubber armour and Nitrogen filled which are binoculars qualities.


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JustaBoy
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: claudedenis]
      #6148080 - 10/20/13 09:33 AM

Hi Claude, and Welcome to Cloudy Nights!

You are more likely to get better answers on Refractor/Binoviewer questions in the Binoviewer Forum.

To answer your question: - "So,what binoviewer+refractor do the same job(and more)as United Optics 28x110 binoculars for about the same price?"

The answer is 'None', as the Binoviewer is going to cost more than that just by itself, and you will never be able to get such a wide field - The light is split into 2 parts in the binoviewer, so you will need an even larger refractor than 110mm.

Two different things, really, so maybe the New APM/APO 100mm 45 BT might be the best way to go.

Good Luck!
-Chuck


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Eric63
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: claudedenis]
      #6148121 - 10/20/13 10:04 AM

Bonjour Claude

I think you will find your answer here

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php/Cat/0/Number/1384879/...

Eric


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claudedenis
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Eric63]
      #6148216 - 10/20/13 11:09 AM

Thank you Eric for the link.
I already bought 15x70 binoculars according to professor EdZ tests and reviews.
Next step will be an apo or achromatic refractor with possibly x100 magnification.
Big binos will wait.I enjoy using the "mini giants".


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Rich V.
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: claudedenis]
      #6148261 - 10/20/13 11:35 AM

Hi, it's difficult for a telescope/BV to match the wide field views of a big binocular; it must have a very short focal length similar to that of binos to match them in true FOV.

To approximate the views with 28x110 binos, a 150mm f5 refractor with a binoviewer and 24mm Panoptic eyepieces (max. 1-1/4" eyepiece field stop size) would come close. This assumes that the scope/BV can come to focus working at 1x; if it needs an OCA to reach focus, there is no contest.

This scope/BV combo would give you 31x and a slightly smaller FOV than the binos (approx. 2.08 vs. 2.25) It would give you the advantage that Jon always points out about 90 viewing comfort and variable magnification.

The 110mm binos weigh ~16 lbs. while the refractor weighs around 25 lbs. Of course, mounting the 150mm achro on a simple alt/az mount would be easier than having to put the binos on a HD parallelogram mount to achieve viewing comfort near zenith. The weight of the p-gram could easily exceed a simple alt/az mount for the refractor so you come out with a net loss of portability there.

If you factor in the cost of the p-gram mount with the binos, you probably won't save much money over the scope/cheap BV/mount but I'll leave it to you to do this research...

Rich


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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: KarlL]
      #6148267 - 10/20/13 11:41 AM

Quote:

Does it make sense to invest in giant binos living under suburban skies?




I think so. A "reasonable" Chinese 25x100 plus a very sturdy Chinese video tripod can be had for under $500, and will show you a lot, even with moderate LP. One caveat is that you will struggle to view at, or anywhere near zenith without a significantly more expensive mount, or a binocular with 45 or 90 eyepiece/prism assemblies. Search the forum for some viewing reports, to get an idea of what you can experience.

I enjoy straight-through 25x100s, but a 20x80 or 15x70 is significantly easier to deal with, and should show you quite a bit in the city. They also show a wider field of view which is desirable for many. To me, this is the sweet spot that gives a great combo of manageability, affordability, and capability. One of my most memorable observing sessions so far was simply scanning Sagittarius and the milky way at new moon outside my suburban house (red/orange LP zone) with a 15x70. It was fantastic.


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claudedenis
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Jarrod]
      #6148464 - 10/20/13 01:43 PM

Thank you for all the answers.
15x70 United Optics binoculars:good optical instrument for a moderate price gives so great satisfaction that one wants for more.
I must consider a 120mm,150mm refractor.


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saemark30
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: claudedenis]
      #6148832 - 10/20/13 06:18 PM

The 15x70mm are so inexpensive everyone should have a pair.
I say the 25x100 are rising in price. They use to cost under $200 and now they are edging upwards to $300 for low end pairs.
There's no telling if the price for these goods can remain so low. Look at what happened to the cost of Japanese optics once the quality is high.
They have skyrockets from the 70's onward.


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Rich V.
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6149002 - 10/20/13 07:45 PM

Those older model giant binos were a lot poorer quality than the newer models. I'd say that the rising prices of larger binoculars has been easily made up for by the increased quality that's available.

You can still get $65. 15x70s and $100. 20x80s; you can still also get low end 25x100s for $200. For $400., though, you can get a far superior 25x100 like the Oberwerk Deluxe. This applies to the improved 20x80s and 15x70s as well. We've never had better choices, IMO.

The low end binos are remaining pretty inexpensive. It's just now we have new generations of higher quality binos to choose from and of course, they cost more.

Rich


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edwincjones
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Rich V.]
      #6149361 - 10/21/13 07:41 AM

is anything now matching the quality of the old Tak, Fuji, or high end Nikon binoculars other than Doctor and Kowa



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faackanders2
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6149720 - 10/21/13 11:51 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Yes, becuse they are easier to take with you wherever you may travel.




Easier than what? Giant binoculars require a serious mount and a case. A fast refractor and see few eyepieces takes up less space and manages with a more compact mount.

Jon




I have taken my Appogee 25x100 and a camera tripod to Mauna Kea, Hawaii (where I couldn't take my 10" or 17.5" dob. I have taken my 9x63 and 15x63 orion mini giants plus smaller binos to Cancun, Mexico; where I didn't want to take the 25x100 or dobs. When we drive on vacation as a family if I can't take eith dob, I can still fit my binos in the car. Sometimes when I am too tired to set up my scope I can still quickly takes out my binos. Yes they are more portable and lightweight than my dobs. Plus some wide and or multiple objects may appear better in wideer binos than a scope. So yes giant binos are useful in suburban skies (as well as dark skies).


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: faackanders2]
      #6149948 - 10/21/13 02:13 PM

Quote:

I have taken my Appogee 25x100 and a camera tripod to Mauna Kea, Hawaii (where I couldn't take my 10" or 17.5" dob. I have taken my 9x63 and 15x63 orion mini giants plus smaller binos to Cancun, Mexico; where I didn't want to take the 25x100 or dobs. When we drive on vacation as a family if I can't take eith dob, I can still fit my binos in the car. Sometimes when I am too tired to set up my scope I can still quickly takes out my binos. Yes they are more portable and lightweight than my dobs. Plus some wide and or multiple objects may appear better in wideer binos than a scope. So yes giant binos are useful in suburban skies (as well as dark skies).




To me, that looks like an endorsement of large binoculars in general but not specifically for suburban skies.. Compact travel rigs.. I will take a fast 80mm refractor with a photo tripod. Good in the backyard too.

Jon


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JustaBoy
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6149975 - 10/21/13 02:26 PM

But Jon...This is the Binocular Forum! :-)

I do hear ya, and I would take the same, along with a 50mm or smaller binocular.

Thanks for all of your good insight,
-Chuck


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saemark30
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Rich V.]
      #6149985 - 10/21/13 02:33 PM

Quote:

Those older model giant binos were a lot poorer quality than the newer models. I'd say that the rising prices of larger binoculars has been easily made up for by the increased quality that's available.

Rich



Why do you say that? The older Celestron ones had bigger prisms hence less vignetting.
Also the binocs are in poor collimation just as often.
The going rate for the Celestron ones are $299 VS under $200 approx a decade ago.


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saemark30
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6150001 - 10/21/13 02:39 PM

Jon dollar for dollar, would you take a 80mm F/5 achromatic refractor plus tripod over the convenience of 15x70 or 25x100 binoculars?
I prefer the experience of binocular vision with both eyes, I see better and deeper.

I think the turning point for me is approx. 120mm or 5" refractor.
I would add a binoviewer. I assume we are using this for low power sweeps.


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Pinbout
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: KarlL]
      #6150012 - 10/21/13 02:48 PM

Quote:

Does it make sense to invest in giant binos living under suburban skies?




these could be pretty cool


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Rich V.
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6150038 - 10/21/13 03:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Those older model giant binos were a lot poorer quality than the newer models. I'd say that the rising prices of larger binoculars has been easily made up for by the increased quality that's available.

Rich



Why do you say that? The older Celestron ones had bigger prisms hence less vignetting.
Also the binocs are in poor collimation just as often.
The going rate for the Celestron ones are $299 VS under $200 approx a decade ago.




I'm speaking generally. You may have a old Celestron 25x100 that you really like; how different is it than the newer ones? I don't know. Many of the past "under $200." 25x100s did suffer from problems like reduced aperture, poor coatings, poor design of prism assys that leads to poor collimation, sloppy mechanical execution, etc. etc.

You can still get a $200. 25x100 if you're willing to buy into the QC lottery. I'm not all that familiar with Celestrons so I can't say how similar or different the models from ten years ago are to the current offerings. Their 15x70(63) and 20x80(72) binos are from the same source as many other low end binos then and now. I do know that a $200. bino ten years ago would cost over $250. now just due to inflation. I also know that the newer, higher quality lines of giant binos like I cited above are a definite cut above their predecessors. They cost more but you're getting a better binocular. What's wrong with that?

Rich


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aa6ww
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: KarlL]
      #6150106 - 10/21/13 03:49 PM

I have a ton of scopes and astronomy gear, but sometimes a pair of big binoculars on a robust easy to use mount is what you want to use. I have some 25x 100IF Oberwerks and they are phenomenal for looking at large objects like the Pleiades, double or triple galaxy systems, or especially comet hunting even in my Orange Zone. The double eye effect cant be praised enough, in how comfortable it is to observe. They are also excellent terrestrial binoculars.
To me however, binoculars are a specialty item, something that doesn't get used very much, but once you have some, they are always fun options.
Sometimes I just want to spend an hr on my patio, and i pull out my large binoculars and have a good time with them. Contras is much improved with two eyes vs one, and dim objects are easier to detect in binoculars, vs the same size scope.
If you can afford a good pair, and they won't break the bank to get them, along with a good mount, they are always worth it.
Especially right now with all the comet activity going on currently.

Good luck with which ever direction you go on this subject.

...Ralph in Sac

Quote:

Does it make sense to invest in giant binos living under suburban skies? I can see virtually every star in the Dipper and its handle ( right below a street light). The light pollution is surprisingly mild to moderate. Under good seeing, the sky near the zenith is excellent.

Would screw-in light-pollution filters help in making giants worthwhile?

Regards,

Karl




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Mark9473
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6150193 - 10/21/13 04:41 PM

Quote:

Jon dollar for dollar, would you take a 80mm F/5 achromatic refractor plus tripod over the convenience of 15x70 or 25x100 binoculars?



Jon has said so many, many times already so I'm really curious what he'll say this time!


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saemark30
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Mark9473]
      #6150220 - 10/21/13 04:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Jon dollar for dollar, would you take a 80mm F/5 achromatic refractor plus tripod over the convenience of 15x70 or 25x100 binoculars?



Jon has said so many, many times already so I'm really curious what he'll say this time!



Really? I mean no high end ED or fluorite based objective,
just plain Celestron(Synta) refractor 80mm f/5 achromat plus heavy tripod or 25x100 binocs.


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KennyJ
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6150272 - 10/21/13 05:28 PM

There appear to be elements of either selective recall or genuine unawareness of the history of "Giant binoculars" commercially available.

My interest in 100mm binoculars goes back to a time long before any were manufactured in China, and I can remember typical prices of, for example, 14x100, 20x100 and 25x100 models made in Japan being the equivalent in REAL terms of two to three as much as even the best of the most recent Chinese made models, which are probably superior to them in every way.

Kenny


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JustaBoy
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6150273 - 10/21/13 05:28 PM

Jon never said that he would take a 80mm F.5 ST, he said:

"I will take a fast 80mm refractor"

My choice personally would be a ED80 (80mm F/7.5 ED).
-Chuck


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Tony Flanders
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6151104 - 10/22/13 05:19 AM

Quote:

Jon dollar for dollar, would you take a 80mm F/5 achromatic refractor plus tripod over the convenience of 15x70 or 25x100 binoculars?




Ummm ...

An 80-mm refractor and 15x70 binoculars are comparable in many ways -- similar light-gathering power, similar weight and bulk. On the whole, I would say that an 80-mm f/5 refractor is clearly more portable and convenient than mounted 15x70 binoculars -- but not by a large margin.

However, 25x100s are a totally different beast. I don't see how anybody could put them in the same class as an 80-mm f/5 refractor as far as portability and convenience is concerned.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6151723 - 10/22/13 01:29 PM

Quote:

Jon dollar for dollar, would you take a 80mm F/5 achromatic refractor plus tripod over the convenience of 15x70 or 25x100 binoculars?
I prefer the experience of binocular vision with both eyes, I see better and deeper.

I think the turning point for me is approx. 120mm or 5" refractor.
I would add a binoviewer. I assume we are using this for low power sweeps.




A few thoughts:

In my experience, my ST-80 mounted on my favorite Bogen 3040 tripod is much more convenient and comfortable than properly mounted straight-though "giant binoculars."

I suspect I would choose binoculars with angled interchangeable angled eyepieces over the ST-80 but the difficulty viewing objects that not near the horizon makes straight-through binoculars a problem with me. Particularly when viewing from suburban skies, it is important to view objects that are well above the horizon...

But as it is, I prefer the versatility of the ST-80, particularly my ST-80 which has a 2 inch focuser and is capable of a 6 degree TFoV. Sweeping the Milky Way with a 6.2mm exit pupil, a 6.0 degree TFoV at 13x, with or without a nebula filter, is something not to be missed.

The versatility of the ST-80 is important to me because one moment I might be sweeping the sky at 20x and I might stumble upon something interesting and with the ST-80, I have the eyepiece rack right there on the tripod and I can zoom in to just possible magnification. In that sense, because of the ability to increase the magnification, the ST-80 goes deeper than a pair of 25x100s...

I have an extra two ST-80s I acquired with the idea of building my own twin telescope. I would not call it binoculars since the image will be reversed left to right, the way I prefer and it is simpler.

Jon


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saemark30
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: KennyJ]
      #6151751 - 10/22/13 01:50 PM

Quote:

There appear to be elements of either selective recall or genuine unawareness of the history of "Giant binoculars" commercially available.

My interest in 100mm binoculars goes back to a time long before any were manufactured in China, and I can remember typical prices of, for example, 14x100, 20x100 and 25x100 models made in Japan being the equivalent in REAL terms of two to three as much as even the best of the most recent Chinese made models, which are probably superior to them in every way.

Kenny



I remember seeing the ads some 15 yrs ago.
Orion sold a pair of 25x100 starting under $999 but went up to $1299 last time I recall. This was before Ethos and a huge investment. I don't know if the coatings are as good as todays binoculars but I heard from a dealer they were often in poor collimation. I don't believe they are any better than a premium Chinese 25x100.

Looking over my Edmund 4" reflector and kellner eyepieces, Tasco binoculars --I see we are living in an incredible time for astronomy. We never had gear this inexpensive and of decent quality.


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JustaBoy
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6151776 - 10/22/13 02:17 PM

"I see we are living in an incredible time for astronomy. We never had gear this inexpensive and of decent quality."


You can certainly say that again!

Back when I was a kid (50s/60s) this stuff took ALL of my money:-(

Come to think of it; What's changed? :-)

-Chuck


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saemark30
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #6151883 - 10/22/13 03:23 PM

Quote:



Ummm ...

An 80-mm refractor and 15x70 binoculars are comparable in many ways -- similar light-gathering power, similar weight and bulk. On the whole, I would say that an 80-mm f/5 refractor is clearly more portable and convenient than mounted 15x70 binoculars -- but not by a large margin.




Why not have both?
I use 15x70 handheld while viewing in a gravity chair.
Two eye viewing is a lot more comfortable and immersive than 1.
Now the 80ED is another great telescope, I really like its optics but it is a bit bigger and heavier and more expensive than the ST80. It works great with 2" diagonal and eyepieces. I wish they come out with a 90mm-94mm F/7 version that would be like an AP Stowaway and show a bit more. The 100mm ED F/9 is a bit too long and slow.


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KennyJ
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6151896 - 10/22/13 03:29 PM

< I don't believe they are any better than a premium Chinese 25x100.>

Neither do I, which is why I wrote:

< models made in Japan being the equivalent in REAL terms of two to three as much as even the best of the most recent Chinese made models, which are probably superior to them in every way.>

Kenny


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6151911 - 10/22/13 03:38 PM

Quote:

Why not have both?
I use 15x70 handheld while viewing in a gravity chair.
Two eye viewing is a lot more comfortable and immersive than 1.
Now the 80ED is another great telescope, I really like its optics but it is a bit bigger and heavier and more expensive than the ST80. It works great with 2" diagonal and eyepieces. I wish they come out with a 90mm-94mm F/7 version that would be like an AP Stowaway and show a bit more. The 100mm ED F/9 is a bit too long and slow.




Comfort and immersivity (how's that for a word) have a lot to do with the eyepiece.. I have never really looked through a binocular eyepiece that was as immersive as a 2 inch like the 20mm Type 2 or the 31mm type 5... BIg wide fields, well corrected, large eye lenses.

For DSOs, there is not a lot of difference between an ED-80 and an ST-80...

Why not have both Giant Binos and a nice fast refractor?

If both are a choice, great.. But equipment exists in the context of other equipment. That is why, rather than recommending my favorite, I first asked the OP, what did he already have.

YMMV

Jon


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Tony Flanders
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6152991 - 10/23/13 05:27 AM

Quote:

Comfort and immersivity (how's that for a word) have a lot to do with the eyepiece.. I have never really looked through a binocular eyepiece that was as immersive as a 2 inch like the 20mm Type 2 or the 31mm type 5... BIg wide fields, well corrected, large eye lenses.




That obviously depends on the individual -- both with respect to two-eyed viewing and with respect to wide-field eyepieces.

I find ultrawide eyepieces (AFOV > 70 degrees) distinctly less comfortable than narrower eyepieces, and neither more nor less immersive. And while I'm not a two-eye fanatic like many people who correspond in this group, I do find two-eyed viewing quite a bit more immersive than one-eyed viewing.

So even though I spend considerably more time with my 70-mm refractor than with my 15x70 binoculars, and on the whole find the refractor easier and more convenient due to the 90-degree viewing angle, I do also find that the 15x70s continue to do a job that the 70-mm refractor doesn't do nearly as well.


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JustaBoy
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #6153226 - 10/23/13 09:21 AM

^^^The Voice of Reason^^^

-Chuck


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saemark30
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: JustaBoy]
      #6153565 - 10/23/13 12:21 PM

Let's not forget that binoculars present the same orientation as eye view, whereas the refractor can present inverted L to R, inverted up and down, or a combination of the 2.
That really is messy working with paper charts.

Also, those AFOV>70 eyepieces cost more than a pair of subgiants or cheap giant binoculars.

Finally nebula filters on 80mm refractors are wasting precious photons, they work better with >= 8" telescopes.

I think it takes a 120mm refractor to match the light gathering power of 100mm binoculars. One can buy the APM ones with interchangable eyepieces.


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schang
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6153731 - 10/23/13 01:40 PM

You can get RACI diagonal or a 45 degrees one on a refractor to have the same view as a bino. Personal preference is one of the major reason people chose a bino or a low power refractor. I, for one feel more comfortable using a bino because I do not have to close one eye while observing with the other one. Doing that for a while longer, it does not do me good, particularly on the close side of the eye. Using both eyes also give you a sense of 3D feeling, immersive or not.

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JustaBoy
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: schang]
      #6153759 - 10/23/13 01:55 PM

I never close my unused eye.

Practice this long enough and your brain will ignore the off eye.

Less eyestrain.

-Chuck


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schang
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: JustaBoy]
      #6153807 - 10/23/13 02:23 PM

Huh?? you can do that??? I found myself unable to concentrate doing that. I do not know if I practice ignoring the other eye's image, what effect it will cause me long term wise, physically and mentally.

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JustaBoy
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: schang]
      #6153832 - 10/23/13 02:38 PM

I think that you will find that I am not alone in doing this..

Just practice at night when using your scope. Things will not be so obvious in your unused eye in the dimmer light.

As for potential harm, I've been doing this for over 50yrs, and I can still see a little bit:-)

Take care,
-Chuck


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Tony Flanders
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6153834 - 10/23/13 02:38 PM

Quote:

Nebula filters on 80mm refractors are wasting precious photons, they work better with >= 8" telescopes.




I don't agree with that statement. When viewing objects that shine almost entirely in emission lines, such as the Veil Nebula, nebula filters don't waste photons.

The view of the Veil as a whole through a properly filtered 80-mm refractor is stupendous.


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JustaBoy
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #6153845 - 10/23/13 02:45 PM

I't about the size of the exit pupil, not the size of the scope.

-Chuck


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saemark30
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #6154022 - 10/23/13 04:19 PM

Quote:



I don't agree with that statement. When viewing objects that shine almost entirely in emission lines, such as the Veil Nebula, nebula filters don't waste photons.

The view of the Veil as a whole through a properly filtered 80-mm refractor is stupendous.



Under what circumstances have you seen the Veil in a properly filtered 80mm refractor, using what filter and mag.skies? The Veil radiates in more than OIII.

Some would say a OIII filter is best for larger exit pupils say 2-3mm.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6154823 - 10/24/13 04:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:



I don't agree with that statement. When viewing objects that shine almost entirely in emission lines, such as the Veil Nebula, nebula filters don't waste photons.

The view of the Veil as a whole through a properly filtered 80-mm refractor is stupendous.



Under what circumstances have you seen the Veil in a properly filtered 80mm refractor, using what filter and mag.skies? The Veil radiates in more than OIII.

Some would say a OIII filter is best for larger exit pupils say 2-3mm.




In my experience, the Veil is better seen in any telescope with a nebula filter, regardless of the darkness of the sky. I regularly see the Veil in a 3 or 4 inch refractor from skies where the Milky Way blazes overhead. From my urban backyard, I have seen the Veil in a vary of instruments including a 4 inch but always with a nebula filter.

It's worth remembering that telescopes and binoculars cannot increase the surface brightness of an extended object like the Veil over naked eye, they can only make it larger,

In my mind, it important to keep this thread in the context of the original question. My viewpoint is that the things a pair of giant binoculars does better than a small refractor are of limited interest when there is significant light pollution, i.e. suburban skies.

The big, low power views are most engaging when the skies are dark and clear.

Jon


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Tony Flanders
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: saemark30]
      #6154889 - 10/24/13 06:58 AM

Quote:

Under what circumstances have you seen the Veil in a properly filtered 80mm refractor, using what filter and mag.skies?




Actually, my refractors are 70-mm and 100-mm, but I've viewed the Veil in both. As it happens, my very best view of all was in my 4.5-inch StarBlast.

You will necessarily use huge exit pupils to view the Veil as a whole. It's a gigantic object, and can only be viewed at ultralow magnifications. That view through the StarBlast was using a 25-mm eyepiece, for a 6-mm exit pupil.

An O-III is indisputably the filter of choice for the Veil.

Seeing the entire Veil in all its glory requires dark skies. Subtle features such as Pickering' Wedge simply cant be seen from typical suburbs, filter or no filter.


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edwincjones
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #6154927 - 10/24/13 07:51 AM

I have seen the total Veil with a TV pronto, 35mm panoptic, and O111 filter on one occasion with dark skies at out clubs/state park dark site

edj


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Mark9473
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6154944 - 10/24/13 08:08 AM

Quote:

In my experience, the Veil is better seen in any telescope with a nebula filter, regardless of the darkness of the sky. I regularly see the Veil in a 3 or 4 inch refractor from skies where the Milky Way blazes overhead. From my urban backyard, I have seen the Veil in a vary of instruments including a 4 inch but always with a nebula filter.



I see the Veil in my 15x60 binoculars without filters when the Milky Way is just barely starting to become visible.


Quote:

It's worth remembering that telescopes and binoculars cannot increase the surface brightness of an extended object like the Veil over naked eye, they can only make it larger



Yes but with binoculars you can almost equal the naked eye surface brightness, which you can't with a telescope.


Quote:

My viewpoint is that the things a pair of giant binoculars does better than a small refractor are of limited interest when there is significant light pollution, i.e. suburban skies.

The big, low power views are most engaging when the skies are dark and clear.



But in case you can't avoid the light pollution and still want a big low power view, binoculars do this a lot better.


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curiosidad
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Mark9473]
      #6155027 - 10/24/13 09:00 AM

I see the Veil with a 10X50 binoculars with two 2" filters UHC in front the binos., in suburbs skies., 9,5 field.

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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Mark9473]
      #6155050 - 10/24/13 09:09 AM

Quote:

But in case you can't avoid the light pollution and still want a big low power view, binoculars do this a lot better.




It likely depends on the level of the light pollution, personal preference and the scopes/binoculars in question.

Does one spend two hours continuously scanning mag 4.8 skies at 15x-25x? When the skies are light polluted, the ability to magnify the image to pick out details and zoom in on interesting regions is what I find most enjoyable.

Spotting the bright green NGC6572 is possible at 20x but viewing its nature requires 100x or more.

Jon Isaacs


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schang
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6155070 - 10/24/13 09:22 AM

This is one advantage of a low power refractor in a grab and go situation. In practice, at least in my case, a bino with a larger dob covers what I need pretty nicely. Or in a grab and go situation, a bino with a grab and go C90 does it pretty nicely as well. The bino is really for low power, scanning the terrestrial or the sky purpose, and it does the job very well. It is only a companion tool to a real telescope.

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mike_k
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: KarlL]
      #6155820 - 10/24/13 03:48 PM

Quote:

I really appreciate everyone's input...

...The question regarding binoculars and light pollution was speculative. I'm sticking with the reflector...

Regards,

Karl




You mean this whole ruckus was just an idle speculation?!!!


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JustaBoy
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: mike_k]
      #6155868 - 10/24/13 04:18 PM

No - He said that quite a while ago, and the posts just kept coming...

You all had fun, Now Admit It:-)

-Chuck


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JohnFredC
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: JustaBoy]
      #6164856 - 10/29/13 04:00 PM

My experience with fork-mounted Apogee RA-88's might be indicative of what to expect of other big binoculars in urban environments.

I observe exclusively with the 32x eyepieces, which yield a 90' field in the RA-88s. Sarasota skies are very bright, but when the humidity is as low as it has been during this last week, averted vision will show stars in the 10.1 - 10.4 range in these binoculars, even though the naked eye only sees to mag 4.0-4.5 due to sky glow.

This makes for some very satisfactory star-hopping.

From my perspective, the important things are comfort while viewing and a solid mount. One can get by with less than perfect optics, but a sore back or neck will "get" you every time.


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Man in a Tub
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: mike_k]
      #6165097 - 10/29/13 06:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I really appreciate everyone's input...

...The question regarding binoculars and light pollution was speculative. I'm sticking with the reflector...

Regards,

Karl




You mean this whole ruckus was just an idle speculation?!!!




Not quite idle speculation - "generic" post titles frequently invite replies after a decision by the original poster. This also happened with the more recent "Thoughts on the Celestron Skymaster 20x80" thread.

Of course, I wonder if the thread has been read. However, the additional reading can be interesting.

Edited by Man in a Tub (10/30/13 07:52 AM)


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edwincjones
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Man in a Tub]
      #6171548 - 11/02/13 08:06 AM

size does matter
today, in my mag 4 + suburban skies, I looked for Comet ISON
it was humid, the comet was low
with 100mm binoculars, I could see something there, just barely
with 150mm binoculars, I could clearly see something-still faint, fuzzy, not much form, but large and could ID as the comet

is it foolish to have such large binoculars in such poor skies-maybe?
is it cost effective-no?
but I can see better

edj


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: edwincjones]
      #6171744 - 11/02/13 11:11 AM

Quote:

size does matter
today, in my mag 4 + suburban skies, I looked for Comet ISON
it was humid, the comet was low
with 100mm binoculars, I could see something there, just barely
with 150mm binoculars, I could clearly see something-still faint, fuzzy, not much form, but large and could ID as the comet

is it foolish to have such large binoculars in such poor skies-maybe?
is it cost effective-no?
but I can see better

edj




In some sense more equipment is always better, there is something one can find to do with it.

On the other hand, in this situation, I have to think though that it would have been more easily seen in a larger telescope. It is a matter of context. If one only has the 150mm binos, they are going to be better than the smaller ones. But if one has a 12.5 inch, it would be a better performer.

I would not recommend buying a pair of large binoculars jut to view comets from suburban skies.

Your Mileage May Vary

Jon


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edwincjones
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6172081 - 11/02/13 02:43 PM

bright comets in large binoculars are fantastic, but this one is not-yet

edj


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Rich V.
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Re: Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies new [Re: edwincjones]
      #6172450 - 11/02/13 07:20 PM

Binoculars do a great job on comets, IMO. Let's hope ISON can live up to all the hype...

Rich


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