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TL2101
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/17/10

Loc: Concord, Ca
Re: Light is Eternal new [Re: petrus45]
      #6147763 - 10/20/13 01:30 AM

Simple minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.

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UND_astrophysics
sage


Reged: 01/19/13

Re: Light is Eternal new [Re: petrus45]
      #6147774 - 10/20/13 01:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I think this might be my last time reading this specialty forum. It seems too often to be a place for certain types of people to push either their religious or their crackpot ideas.




popular mechanics and discovery channel trained "scientists"




So, since you folks raise the issue, what are your training and qualifications in science? And if they are eminent and distinguished, what are you doing spending your time arguing with non-scientists on this amateur site? Don't you have any bigger fish to fry?




Do you turn your head when someone yells "Hey!" in a crowd too?


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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Light is Eternal new [Re: petrus45]
      #6148153 - 10/20/13 10:26 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I think this might be my last time reading this specialty forum. It seems too often to be a place for certain types of people to push either their religious or their crackpot ideas.




popular mechanics and discovery channel trained "scientists"




So, since you folks raise the issue, what are your training and qualifications in science? And if they are eminent and distinguished, what are you doing spending your time arguing with non-scientists on this amateur site? Don't you have any bigger fish to fry?




I'm not really into fried fish.


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FirstSightModerator
Duke of Deneb
*****

Reged: 12/26/05

Loc: Raleigh, NC
Re: Light is Eternal new [Re: petrus45]
      #6148242 - 10/20/13 11:24 AM

This is spoken to ALL here in general, and NOT to any poster in this thread in particular:

The clear majority of participants in this particular foruum (CN Science...) do clearly reflect, in the quality and nature of their discussions, that they possess some bona fide knowledge and sophisticated understanding of scientific issues, albeit not necessarily at the level of professional scientists or graduate-level course work. THAT SAID, this forum is NOT a peer-reviewed journal in the sense of a professional publication such as "Nature". It's open to contribution by ANY CN member of whatever background wanting to do so, entirely self-screened by the esoteric, geeky, often technical nature of many of the discussions. Most participants are self-restrained from speaking beyond their technical depth, and most are sensible participants, but not everyone will agree who is speaking sensibly and within their depth and who is not.

A paramount value here at CN applies to this forum; quoting a key passage from the Terms of Service:
Quote:

Posts that are not respectful of other individuals (be they members or not) are not welcome here.



...which includes posts written in a disrespectful tone toward those whom the poster regards as having an inferior or unsound grasp of scientific issues. Respectful disagreement or even respectful debunking of unsound arguments is legitimate; disrespect is not.

The moderators will inevitably from time to time have to wrestle with judgment calls on defending the open, free nature of the forum against efforts by some members to censor others by disrespect, versus defending substantive forum threads from hijacking by introduction of off-the-wall tangents. No one has to read or comment in any thread, or respond to any post, which they regard as too unsound or insubstantial to be worthy!

Our maintaining a relatively more tolerant, permissive approach here in the Science forum has allowed some rather interesting discussions to proceed along the more adventurous edges and grey zones of the CN Terms of Service, but that depends on maintaining an atmosphere of mutual tolerance and respect. Besides it's quite a bit of work when we moderators do have to get involved and the CN moderator ethos is to try to avoid over-moderation and stay in the background as much as possible in that role. Please help us out in that regard, and stay respectful of one another in your postings.

Edited by FirstSight (10/20/13 05:29 PM)


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FirstSightModerator
Duke of Deneb
*****

Reged: 12/26/05

Loc: Raleigh, NC
Re: Light is Eternal new [Re: TL2101]
      #6148291 - 10/20/13 11:56 AM

Quote:

Simple minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.




Part of the genius of Abraham Lincoln was his ability to synthesize all three of these elements into a persuasively englightening argument or story.


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TL2101
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/17/10

Loc: Concord, Ca
Re: Light is Eternal new [Re: FirstSight]
      #6148482 - 10/20/13 01:55 PM

Yes, Lincoln was a wise man. And the posters in this thread are more than capable of following his advice. It's disappointing to us non scientist types who enjoying reading these threads to see otherwise.

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UND_astrophysics
sage


Reged: 01/19/13

Re: Light is Eternal new [Re: FirstSight]
      #6148734 - 10/20/13 05:19 PM

[quotealbeit not necessarily at the level of professional scientists or graduate-level course work.




you might want to check my profile out again ;-)


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FirstSightModerator
Duke of Deneb
*****

Reged: 12/26/05

Loc: Raleigh, NC
Re: Light is Eternal new [Re: UND_astrophysics]
      #6148753 - 10/20/13 05:34 PM

Quote:

[quotealbeit not necessarily at the level of professional scientists or graduate-level course work.




you might want to check my profile out again ;-)




The forum's participants of course DO include people with advanced education and qualifications of various sorts, including you in particular. Actually, I had more in mind people like myself with that remark (B.S. computer science, B.S. electrical engineering, but I'm not any sort of practicing scientist or engineer).

Edited by FirstSight (10/20/13 05:37 PM)


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Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Light is Eternal new [Re: FirstSight]
      #6148825 - 10/20/13 06:13 PM

I have a B.S. in BS. (Well, philosophy actually).

/Ira


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derangedhermit
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/07/09

Loc: USA
Re: Light is Eternal new [Re: GregLee1]
      #6148862 - 10/20/13 06:30 PM

Quote:

Our existence depends on such remarkable circumstances that they must have come about by the design of someone with our interests in mind.




The Earth was designed for mosquitos and cockroaches, not people. We got here rather late, and I think we will disappear rather early. This is an inhospitable place for humans.

So the time travelers are the cockroaches. Mosquitoes can't fly that fast.


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derangedhermit
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/07/09

Loc: USA
Re: Light is Eternal new [Re: Mxplx2]
      #6148897 - 10/20/13 06:51 PM

Quote:

I heard the phrase on the radio "light is eternal" [..]It's certainly long lived, considering that astronomy deals with millions of light years, but eternal?




Wouldn't protons, neutrons, and electrons have greater life expectancy than photons? I'd add neutrinos, but I don't know if flavor-changing counts against them.


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derangedhermit
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/07/09

Loc: USA
Re: Light is Eternal new [Re: derangedhermit]
      #6148928 - 10/20/13 07:11 PM

Skipping the "photons = light" thought, it seems to me the universe expands forever, or is steady-state, or collapses. For either expanding or steady-state, most of the light disappears not long after all the hydrogen is used up. In the collapsing case, there may be some mechanism to create more hydrogen (lights on again), or there may not (still in the dark).

I think "darkness is eternal" and "light is fleeting".


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UND_astrophysics
sage


Reged: 01/19/13

Re: Light is Eternal [Re: FirstSight]
      #6148998 - 10/20/13 07:44 PM

Quote:

Quote:

[quotealbeit not necessarily at the level of professional scientists or graduate-level course work.




you might want to check my profile out again ;-)




The forum's participants of course DO include people with advanced education and qualifications of various sorts, including you in particular. Actually, I had more in mind people like myself with that remark (B.S. computer science, B.S. electrical engineering, but I'm not any sort of practicing scientist or engineer).




No Worries, I do not get a lot of time to post here being a full time graduate student involved in research, but I like to lurk here from time to time. I certainly could tell by your posts that you are not one of the ones full of "baloney" here. It is pretty easy to spot actually.

Quote:

I have a B.S. in BS. (Well, philosophy actually).

/Ira




Actually there is nothing BS about a philosophy B.S. Ira. It is a noble degree that teaches different approaches to problem solving and critical thinking.


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Ira
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel
Re: Light is Eternal new [Re: UND_astrophysics]
      #6149061 - 10/20/13 08:42 PM

You might want to add a sense of humour somewhere along the line of your many accomplishments before you serious yourself to death.

/Ira


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gavinm
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 08/26/05

Loc: Auckland New Zealand
Re: Light is Eternal new [Re: Ira]
      #6149103 - 10/20/13 09:15 PM



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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Light is Eternal new [Re: gavinm]
      #6149139 - 10/21/13 12:14 AM

BTW, we're getting off topic here, but to expand on what Chris said, some of the most intelligent and deep thinkers I know are people who missed out on formal training in science, but had the interest and determination to learn it themselves. These people often seem also to enjoy it more than some of us jaded professionals. I relish the opportunity to talk with people like that, and some of them are right here on Cloudy Nights.

I've also known some PhD's who had difficulty maintaining a coherent discussion.

So, I don't get too concerned about asking for someone's formal credentials in our discussions here. You can tell from their words whether they're engaged, learning, curious, and informed. Or not. As Einstein was fond of saying, "Imagination is more important than knowledge." Knowledge is obtainable. Imagination, it appears, is more of a gift.

Edited by llanitedave (10/21/13 12:16 AM)


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UND_astrophysics
sage


Reged: 01/19/13

Re: Light is Eternal new [Re: llanitedave]
      #6149156 - 10/21/13 12:39 AM

Quote:

some of the most intelligent and deep thinkers I know are people who missed out on formal training in science, but had the interest and determination to learn it themselves.

I've also known some PhD's who had difficulty maintaining a coherent discussion.

So, I don't get too concerned about asking for someone's formal credentials in our discussions here. You can tell from their words whether they're engaged, learning, curious, and informed. Or not. As Einstein was fond of saying, "Imagination is more important than knowledge." Knowledge is obtainable. Imagination, it appears, is more of a gift.




I would have to disagree on one aspect part of that. Without a formal education, there is no way to separate the b.s. from the good science, by being self taught just not possible, and that is just a fact of the field. I do not know any "self trained scientists"... not a single one. Now I certainly never asked for credentials, but when I was challenged by another user to present them, (not the mod) I was more than happy to oblige, I have put in the time and hard work.
I certainly do not claim to be an expert outside of my fields of study, but I certainly can tell who is just babbling nonsense. And yes, there may be a Ph.D as you described, but I for one have never met anyone like that (except once in quantitative physics 430 class )


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gavinm
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 08/26/05

Loc: Auckland New Zealand
Re: Light is Eternal new [Re: UND_astrophysics]
      #6149183 - 10/21/13 01:02 AM

Humility is better than any formal education.

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UND_astrophysics
sage


Reged: 01/19/13

Re: Light is Eternal new [Re: gavinm]
      #6149200 - 10/21/13 01:22 AM

Quote:

Humility is better than any formal education.




Try to make into the field with that credential.


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barasits
sage


Reged: 06/12/11

Loc: Chicago
Re: Light is Eternal [Re: gavinm]
      #6149203 - 10/21/13 01:26 AM

Quote:

Humility is better than any formal education.





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