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Observing >> Deep Sky Observing

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MrJones
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 09/15/10

Loc: Indiana
Tendrils in M1?
      #6152360 - 10/22/13 07:53 PM

What's it take? The best I've done with my Z12 + OIII filter is slightly mottled with the irregular outline obvious. After reading lots of observation reports it sounds like it might be doable with a 16" or so. Does this mean no chance with a 12"?

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stevecoe
"Astronomical Tourist"
*****

Reged: 04/24/04

Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: Tendrils in M1? new [Re: MrJones]
      #6152370 - 10/22/13 08:00 PM

Jones;

Here is an observation from years ago with a 13".

M 1 13" f/5.6 S=9, T=10 100X--bright, pretty large, elongated, little brighter middle. 330X--filaments seen, they are a low surface brightness feature within the nebulosity. The pulsar and nearby star are split, they are not easy, but there. There are a total of 7 stars involved. A very faint nebulosity surrounds the pretty bright main body of the nebula.

Please notice this is a night I rated the seeing at 9 out of 10 and the transparency as perfect. Those are very rare nights indeed, the observing site is about 100 miles from Phoenix, Arizona.

Clear skies to us all;
Steve Coe


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Kraus
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/10/12

Loc: Georgia.
Re: Tendrils in M1? new [Re: stevecoe]
      #6152687 - 10/22/13 11:11 PM


One night I barely see the Crab. Three nights later, I easily see it including tendrils. Transparency, seeing, even sky glow can change night to night. Did I answer your question?


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star drop
contra contrail
*****

Reged: 02/02/08

Loc: Snow Plop, WNY
Re: Tendrils in M1? new [Re: Kraus]
      #6152787 - 10/23/13 12:29 AM

I'm in agreement with Kraus. When the sky is great the crab nebula is great.

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george golitzin
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 02/24/06

Re: Tendrils in M1? new [Re: stevecoe]
      #6152815 - 10/23/13 12:44 AM

Steve, were you using any filtration or just the high power that night?

-george


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David Knisely
Postmaster
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Reged: 04/19/04

Loc: southeastern Nebraska
Re: Tendrils in M1? new [Re: stevecoe]
      #6152823 - 10/23/13 12:57 AM

I have seen two of the filaments in my 10 inch and 14 inch Newtonians, but only barely and only with either the DGM NPB filter or with the Lumicon OIII filter. The edges of the nebula always look patchy or tattered, but only on an outstanding night do hints of the outer filaments start to become visible. There are two on the north-central side that mainly come out as the faintest of projections with not a lot of structure, and another very faint hint of one goes out over the eastern half. Other than that, the edges just look very tattered without a lot of structure that can be held with any degree of certainty. Clear skies to you.

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stevecoe
"Astronomical Tourist"
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Reged: 04/24/04

Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: Tendrils in M1? new [Re: David Knisely]
      #6152920 - 10/23/13 03:50 AM

George;

Just high power, no filter.

Steve Coe


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MrJones
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 09/15/10

Loc: Indiana
Re: Tendrils in M1? new [Re: stevecoe]
      #6153318 - 10/23/13 10:08 AM

Thanks all! I do have some pretty good nights here so it sounds well worth it to keep trying.

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Achernar
Postmaster
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Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
Re: Tendrils in M1? new [Re: MrJones]
      #6153355 - 10/23/13 10:25 AM

At a dark site I have seen them with my 15-inch, I would say under similar conditions you should be able to see them with your 12-inch. It appears that dark skies and dark adaption are more essential to spotting them than a large aperture telescoe.

Taras


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Feidb
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/09/09

Loc: Nevada
Re: Tendrils in M1? new [Re: Achernar]
      #6154084 - 10/23/13 05:10 PM

I've seen them a few times, but not often. Always with either of my 16-inch scopes, which I've used exclusively since 1987. Can't remember if it was with or without filters. Could be either.

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aatt
sage


Reged: 07/26/12

Loc: CT
Re: Tendrils in M1? new [Re: Feidb]
      #6154438 - 10/23/13 09:14 PM

I saw them once on a good night in an orange zone with my 15"

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george golitzin
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 02/24/06

Re: Tendrils in M1? new [Re: stevecoe]
      #6155978 - 10/24/13 05:19 PM

Thanks Steve!

-geo


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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
*****

Reged: 06/24/03

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Tendrils in M1? new [Re: george golitzin]
      #6156088 - 10/24/13 06:26 PM

You need:
--darkness (I've seen some tendrils in a 12.5" on nights with a sky brightness of magnitude 21.4 and darker)
--good seeing (the night of greatest visibility was on a night when 304X was an "easy" power with sharp stars)
--excellent collimation (any smearing and the details are gone)
--optics at ambient temperature (any thermal issue will blur the tendrils enough to make them invisible).
--a high altitude for the target--crossing the meridian would be better than viewing it lower.

Can you hope to do it in a 12"? Maybe. I never assume anything is invisible in a smaller aperture until it can't be seen by everyone.


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aatt
sage


Reged: 07/26/12

Loc: CT
Re: Tendrils in M1? new [Re: Starman1]
      #6193608 - 11/13/13 10:13 PM

There was a moment or two last Friday from a green/blue zone site that the nebula showed many tendrils-not just the largest brightest ones near the center. There was a look to it that I might describe as luminous grass- crabgrass even...When seeing went back to poor, I still saw continuing fleeting hints of this filamentary texture after observing it for a prolonged period. Those brief moments were striking.Scope was a 15" F/5.I think my observing skills are fair to decent, my eyes were good and now are headed towards fair and what I lack in both categories is probably compensated by the extra aperture of a 15". I would say a 12"should still be able to pull in the tendrils when coupled to good conditions and a reasonable, not vast, amount of observing experience with faint objects.Definitely keep at it.It is a pretty cool object once you get acquainted.

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MrJones
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 09/15/10

Loc: Indiana
Re: Tendrils in M1? new [Re: aatt]
      #6196136 - 11/15/13 09:09 AM

Thanks for the report, I'm ready to try with the next new moon. What magnification did you use?

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aatt
sage


Reged: 07/26/12

Loc: CT
Re: Tendrils in M1? new [Re: MrJones]
      #6196289 - 11/15/13 10:40 AM

I was using 173X and 95X. The best views were at 173X though.Eyepieces were ES 11mm 82 degree and a 20mm Sterling plossl. Yeah-I am not happy about Luna right now either, but it is good excuse to focus on Jupiter!

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azure1961p
Postmaster
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Reged: 01/17/09

Loc: USA
Re: Tendrils in M1? new [Re: aatt]
      #6197154 - 11/15/13 08:36 PM

In a yellow-green zone I saw it with an 18" reflector - it was t the view of a century in difficulty in fact it wasn't to hard at all with a little patience. The power was 100x-ish. Guesstimating from that experience is bet a decent amount of magnification with a 12" would bring in the tendrils. I've never seen it with my 8" bug I never ventured beyond 140x . Its still a beSutiful object to me regardless.

Pete


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mike73
super member


Reged: 05/01/12

Loc: UK Plymouth
Re: Tendrils in M1? new [Re: azure1961p]
      #6197671 - 11/16/13 06:36 AM

I remember trying UHC and OIII filters to try and bring out more detail in M1 but the filtered view had little effect from a dark site.
Transparency was the key though, on the night I made the sketch below there must of been thin high cloud because structure within M1 would pop into view for a couple seconds then disappear again for a while...
http://darkskysketches.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=m1


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nytecam
Postmaster


Reged: 08/20/05

Loc: London UK
Re: Tendrils in M1? new [Re: mike73]
      #6201775 - 11/18/13 02:04 PM Attachment (13 downloads)

My pic from Nov 4 may help in locating the brighter tendrils - my colour pic here

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MrJones
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 09/15/10

Loc: Indiana
Re: Tendrils in M1? new [Re: nytecam]
      #6204459 - 11/19/13 07:30 PM

Thanks guys. I have a C9.25 image myself here. I love the sketches and am curious that some some observers report seeing a few "outer" tendrils when it looks like from images that the inner detail might be more apparent. Hopefully I will see for myself soon if the weather cooperates.

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