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Astrophotography and Sketching >> Beginning and Intermediate Imaging

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iverp
sage


Reged: 04/16/10

Re: Imaging Challenge Understanding new [Re: iverp]
      #6167061 - 10/30/13 06:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Typical beginning imaging equipment will include webcams, the Meade DSI and other low cost imagers.



Note that this quote comes from the Beginning and Intermediate Imaging Forum description. I think we should keep this mind as we try to distinguish between beginning and intermediate imagers.




Oh yikes, I'm sorry! I didn't intend my post to discourage entries.

Maybe the forum description needs to be revised?

I honestly am not a "win by any means" kind of person. As a matter of fact, I would hope that more people will submit their entry even if they feel it doesn't "measure up" or have a chance of winning. I assume the Beginner Challenge is still open to everyone. Unless the rules are changed, go ahead and enter. We can all learn and hopefully improve our skills as we compare and discuss what we have done.


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rflinn68Moderator
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/09/12

Loc: Arkansas
Re: Imaging Challenge Understanding new [Re: iverp]
      #6167536 - 10/30/13 11:33 PM

I do understand and support a way to give everyone a chance to win. Just the word Challenge invokes competitiveness in me. I've always been a competitive person in everything from baseball to drag racing. I admit that I like to win. Who doesnt? Who doesnt enjoy winning and having other people admire their work, no matter what they are doing?

That said, the truly competitive person will want to test his or her skills against the more accomplished in his craft no matter what it might be. When you dominate something it isnt really a "challenge" anymore is it?

So I do understand and dont want to sound like I am taking my scope and camera and going home. I am open to whatever the forum seems appropriate. My picture wasnt good enough anyway.

While it is good to have the encouragement and the admiration of your piers (certainly helps me from time to time!!), its not a necessity in reaching ones goal(s). As someone once said, "You are confined only by the walls you build yourself". Ultimately, it isnt really about winning. Its about getting better and sharing our knowledge and experiences as a group.

The motto by which I try to live my life came from the mouth of the great Albert Einstein. He said, "Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value". At this point in my life this seems to be an easier road because I'll never be a success.

We have a lot of intelligent people here so surely we can get something decided. So you guys can let me know when that decision is made.


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CounterWeight
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Palo alto, CA.
Re: Imaging Challenge Understanding new [Re: iverp]
      #6167566 - 10/30/13 11:57 PM

i think a lot of the requirements are at best really outdated! The imaging world has changed hugely since a statement like that made any sense at all(if it ever did).

We could endlessly whine and ninny nance the subject to death, but why bother - get yer gear and start getting photons! If you can't get photons then read and ask questions here and everywhere else you can if you are serious. Ask questions about whatever... jeez... there is a problem? I don't get it.

Roll lowball or highroll or somewhere in-between, but roll... motion, movement, action, activity... get it done and be happy, thankful even.

If you are here to win contests that is another barrel of fish. In the years I've been here I think I've submitted maybe 3 images to the various contests and never won - oh well, no problem here with me. Maybe I am just old fashioned but if the object was winning... well then you do what it takes, whining and excluding and narrowing down who can enter I guess one way. Or that old fashioned way of just getting better yourself to where you prevail, whatever it takes.


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Jeff2011
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 01/01/13

Loc: Sugar Land, TX
Re: Imaging Challenge Understanding new [Re: CounterWeight]
      #6167640 - 10/31/13 01:07 AM

After thinking about this some more I am ok with leaving things the way they are with the exception of clarifying the terms beginner and intermediate. My feeling is there ought to be a DSO challenge for those just starting out and struggling to learn the basics. I don't think this can be quantified by time, equipment or techniques. I will leave the wording defining these terms to someone smarter than me. I believe if the intention of the challenge is made clear, then people will decide for themselves if they are at a beginner or intermediate level. The problem was that these terms were never defined, so it was left open to everyones own interpretation.

I also believe that purpose of these challenges is to provide a fun way for us to learn from each other and improve our skills through a little friendly competition. I also enjoy seeing all the different variations of equipment, integration time, processing and colors. The more people that participate the better.


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terry59
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 07/18/11

Loc: Colorado, USA
Re: Imaging Challenge Understanding new [Re: Jeff2011]
      #6168120 - 10/31/13 10:18 AM

Since getting agreement on what constitutes a beginner would be difficult or impossible, either in skill or equipment, maybe the target should be the focus. For example, only wideband targets for beginners and include narrowband for intermediate. Just a thought...

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rflinn68Moderator
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/09/12

Loc: Arkansas
Re: Imaging Challenge Understanding new [Re: terry59]
      #6168227 - 10/31/13 11:10 AM Attachment (18 downloads)

Ok, here's mine. See, the color just doesnt seem quite right.

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Madratter
Postmaster


Reged: 01/14/13

Re: Imaging Challenge Understanding new [Re: rflinn68]
      #6168255 - 10/31/13 11:22 AM

I don't know, Richard. The orange is just about perfect somewhere in that graduated blend. Now I just need to figure out where!

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rflinn68Moderator
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/09/12

Loc: Arkansas
Re: Imaging Challenge Understanding new [Re: Madratter]
      #6168446 - 10/31/13 12:58 PM

Quote:

I don't know, Richard. The orange is just about perfect somewhere in that graduated blend. Now I just need to figure out where!




See what I mean! Lots of good people here always encouraging each other. Thanks Madratter! I'll keep working on it.


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iverp
sage


Reged: 04/16/10

Re: Imaging Challenge Understanding [Re: iverp]
      #6169184 - 10/31/13 08:14 PM

I really look forward to discussing the images submitted in the challenges. I'm sure we agree that we should wait for that until after the voting.

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Framis
super member


Reged: 04/07/09

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Imaging Challenge Understanding new [Re: iverp]
      #6184937 - 11/09/13 03:45 PM

Quote:

As an example, I would not consider narrowband imaging and processing to be a skill set that a beginner would be able to easily master even if they decided from the start to buy the gear and learn it - it takes time and practice to develop the skill set. Your average beginner needs time just to work out the basics, like guiding and basic stacking and processing. This should rightly show in their work, as well as improvements they make over time. We should keep all this in mind when judging a beginner contest and vote accordingly.

Charlie




Hmmmm..... well stated Charlie, but it looks like 45% of the voters believe taking NB, using multiple scopes, and cameras over a few days to be that of a beginner's level. while the rest of the contestants finished as well as a one-legged man in an arse kicking contest. ohh well... it is what it is.

Now lets see some M42's =)


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Magellan
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 01/26/06

Loc: Enfield, NS Canada
Re: Imaging Challenge Understanding new [Re: Framis]
      #6192722 - 11/13/13 01:58 PM

I also almost didn't enter either, mine was Ha only because I didn't have time to shoot unfiltered. After seeing that amazing image I knew I wouldn't win, I had detail but no color, but I also didn't get a single vote, which is discouraging but challenges me to do better, I since added color.

Most of the images I post here only get 1 - 3 replies, thats ok, I do more posting on Facebook, google+ and Flickr.

I suggest for "Beginner" we stick to the Messier list, most objects are relatively easy although M42 being bright is a tough one to process due to the high dynamic range.

I remember I won beginner once with my M13. I try to pick objects that both modded and unmodded camera's can shoot nearly equally. m13, Open clusters, M45.

Perhaps we should just ban narrowband images for the Beginner challenge?

I am going to continue to enter, regardless! however I think this months is M42, unless I can use the data earlier in the year I won't enter. I shot M42 so many times I just want to shoot something else


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Charlie HeinAdministrator
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 11/02/03

Loc: 26.06.08N, +80.23.08W
Re: Imaging Challenge Understanding new [Re: Framis]
      #6198421 - 11/16/13 04:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:

As an example, I would not consider narrowband imaging and processing to be a skill set that a beginner would be able to easily master even if they decided from the start to buy the gear and learn it - it takes time and practice to develop the skill set. Your average beginner needs time just to work out the basics, like guiding and basic stacking and processing. This should rightly show in their work, as well as improvements they make over time. We should keep all this in mind when judging a beginner contest and vote accordingly.

Charlie




Hmmmm..... well stated Charlie, but it looks like 45% of the voters believe taking NB, using multiple scopes, and cameras over a few days to be that of a beginner's level. while the rest of the contestants finished as well as a one-legged man in an arse kicking contest. ohh well... it is what it is.




It's easy to see that when folks who have advanced skills post to beginner contests it chases away legitimate beginners because they do not feel as if they can compete.

This issue is compounded and possibly even rewarded by folks voting for the advanced photos.

We're having this conversation because *it* doesn't really *have* to be what *it is*... we just need to work out the best way to change it.

If simply pointing out out the problems with what's going on and asking the people involved to help fix it doesn't seem to help, then we at least need to make sure that these folks quickly "graduate" out of the competition.

We have typically dealt with this by applying what I've called the "three and out" rule. If a person wins the contests three times (uncontested wins do not count) then they will "graduate" and be ineligible to enter that contest again.

It's intended to move folks along to greater challenges in the CCD, DSLR and Solar System forums. So far it's only active in the main Imaging/Sketching contest.

I think we should apply the "three and out" rule for the challenges as well - but I'm considering a twist.

Typically, folks who go uncontested do not have their win counted against the "three and out" rule. Perhaps we should remove that exception, and in its place have a poll put up whenever someone hits three wins - contested or not - to determine if the entrant has displayed enough skill to "graduate" or not.

In this way folks could continue to vote for what they consider to be the "best" image without regard to the experience level of the entrant if they want to. Three wins under these conditions and then we ask these same folks to decide that they are good enough to "graduate". A few rounds of this should level the playing field a bit.


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Jeff2011
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 01/01/13

Loc: Sugar Land, TX
Re: Imaging Challenge Understanding new [Re: Charlie Hein]
      #6199147 - 11/16/13 11:31 PM

Quote:

Perhaps we should remove that exception, and in its place have a poll put up whenever someone hits three wins - contested or not - to determine if the entrant has displayed enough skill to "graduate" or not.




I don't know Charlie. Voting on an image is one thing, but voting on someone's skill level is another. This could cause some hard feelings. Perhaps it should be left as win three times and you move on. Just my thoughts.


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Charlie HeinAdministrator
Postmaster
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Reged: 11/02/03

Loc: 26.06.08N, +80.23.08W
Re: Imaging Challenge Understanding new [Re: Jeff2011]
      #6215158 - 11/25/13 01:36 PM

Hmmm... sorry to seem a bit disconnected, there are lots of (good) things going on for me personally at the moment that are taking more of my time than usual. I'm going to read back through this and try to encapsulate what we've discussed into "resolutions" to consider. Once we have those set I'll put up a poll to vote each up or down, and then we'll amend things as required.

Charlie

PS - Jeff, I see your point. We'll just consider "three and out" as we do in the main contest. CH


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iverp
sage


Reged: 04/16/10

Re: Imaging Challenge Understanding new [Re: Charlie Hein]
      #6218341 - 11/26/13 11:03 PM

Fret not, Charlie. We are all here for the enjoyment. It's not like a corporate web site. Thanks for what you do, and enjoy the other good things in your life.

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Framis
super member


Reged: 04/07/09

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Imaging Challenge Understanding new [Re: iverp]
      #6229535 - 12/02/13 04:05 PM

Personally I am on the 1 and out track... I think if I can win the beginner DSO then its time for me to invest more time and effort to compete at the intermediate level. I am not saying that everyone should do that... that is just for me...

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