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Equipment Discussions >> Classic Telescopes

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madeline
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 07/30/10

Loc: Bloomington, MN
Re: Zeiss scope new [Re: terraclarke]
      #6190195 - 11/12/13 09:12 AM

You are so right Terra.

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starman876
Post Laureate
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Reged: 04/28/08

Loc: VA
Re: Zeiss scope new [Re: joerbiker]
      #6190260 - 11/12/13 10:01 AM

Wow, seems the opinions are that this could be an ATM scope and then they go further to say that the Zeiss engravings could be fake. Talk about causing a stir. I would imagine that the Zeiss expert would be in Germany where they see Zeiss products every single day.

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BGeoghegan
super member


Reged: 03/22/10

Loc: Eastern CT
1981 C5 outside Boston new [Re: starman876]
      #6190334 - 11/12/13 10:33 AM

http://worcester.craigslist.org/for/4182972291.html
Very tempting at the price. I'm posting it here to gain some willpower.
Bob G

Edited by BGeoghegan (11/12/13 10:36 AM)


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fjs
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 03/25/13

Loc: Olympic Peninsula, USA
Re: 1981 C5 outside Boston new [Re: BGeoghegan]
      #6190351 - 11/12/13 10:41 AM

If you're hoping to get people to talk you out of it; you've come to the wrong place!

If I were there, it would now be in my pickup truck on its way home.


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hpw
member


Reged: 02/21/09

Loc: Europe
Re: Zeiss scope new [Re: joerbiker]
      #6190371 - 11/12/13 10:49 AM

This Zeiss B(!) 80/1200 was on an auction in Vienna on Monday. And the price was VERY good! That`s how old Zeiss telescopes should look like. The mount and tripod aren`t Zeiss (as mentioned).

Zeiss B80/1200


Peter


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Astrojensen
Post Laureate
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Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Zeiss scope new [Re: hpw]
      #6190391 - 11/12/13 10:57 AM

The price for such an original Zeiss B 80/1200 OTA with accesories, plus ATM tripod and unknown (Steinheil???) mount is fantastically good! The OTA is in almost perfect condition and would only need some rather easy to do jobs to look fantastic.

The tripod is very well made and looks like the ones Zeiss used to sell. A superb looking instrument.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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starman876
Post Laureate
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Reged: 04/28/08

Loc: VA
Re: Zeiss scope new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #6190418 - 11/12/13 11:10 AM

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Altes-KRIEGSMARINE-Gros-Teleskop-ZEISS-30X-45X-60X-mi...

After looking at the carl zeiss jena logos on my scopes I can see why they say the lettering on ebay scope does not look right. The Zeiss logos are very consistant over the years and do not vary in style. Talk about being HOODWINKED


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BGeoghegan
super member


Reged: 03/22/10

Loc: Eastern CT
Re: 1981 C5 outside Boston new [Re: fjs]
      #6190460 - 11/12/13 11:32 AM

Quote:

If you're hoping to get people to talk you out of it; you've come to the wrong place!

If I were there, it would now be in my pickup truck on its way home.




Don't I know it..., but I'd also feel like a schmuck to buy it after posting here. Note to self, you didn't run the location through Mapquest and see it was 59 minutes from home, nope you did NOT do that.

Even a lovely orange C5 has too much functional overlap with my Q4.
Bob G


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terraclarke
Post Laureate
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Reged: 05/29/12

Loc: Just South of the Mason-Dixon ...
Re: Zeiss scope new [Re: starman876]
      #6190513 - 11/12/13 11:51 AM

Quote:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Altes-KRIEGSMARINE-Gros-Teleskop-ZEISS-30X-45X-60X-mi...

After looking at the carl zeiss jena logos on my scopes I can see why they say the lettering on ebay scope does not look right. The Zeiss logos are very consistant over the years and do not vary in style. Talk about being HOODWINKED




Thanks Madeline. If genuine, I stand by my date of post 1935 and pre 1944. I do think the CZJ logo (the one shaped like an achromat) looks authentic enough. However, the lettered Carl Zeiss labels seem perhaps too be rather numerous. I am also not sure about the Eagle emblem- the comb? is being held to partially obscure it as well as the swastika (which is not legally displayed in Germany, however the seller is in Italy). The oblique hood looks correct, however that feature seems to be one of earlier Zeiss telescopes, but then again, the Kriegsmarine emblem could have been added later; but would it be on there at all? I have seen other WWII era Zeiss optics from Germany that were used by the German military and did not have such an emblem. If genuine, this symbol, I am sure, would greatly increase the price the scope would fetch with certain collectors.

Here is another thing to consider, wouldn't a telescope that was mounted shipboard not utilize a tripod? It seems to me that the mount is attached from a fixed post and the OTA and mount can be removed when not in use.

One last point, does anyone else think the OTA appears to be too short for an F13 instrument? Of course this is a terrestrial telescope meant to use a porro-prism, yet it still seems short to me. If you actually make some measurements off of the photograph, it comes out to be more of an F8 or F9.

Finally, why is the seller's face blacked out?

I am not ready at this point to judge it as a 'hoodwink" however these are some of my thoughts on further examination.

It is a neat looking telescope, and if found genuine, it will certainly be rare given its markings.


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Astrojensen
Post Laureate
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Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Zeiss scope new [Re: starman876]
      #6190515 - 11/12/13 11:52 AM

Quote:

After looking at the carl zeiss jena logos on my scopes I can see why they say the lettering on ebay scope does not look right. The Zeiss logos are very consistant over the years and do not vary in style. Talk about being HOODWINKED




On the other hand, the appearance of the logo appears to be correct, taking eventual angling of the camera into consideration. Lots of the details on the tripod also seems consistent with the tripod used on the Zeiss Asegur 63/850mm travelling telescope. Zeiss DID began to change the design of their scopes just before the war, so I consider it highly likely that just because we can't immediately find a matching scope whose history is not in doubt, that doesn't mean this scope isn't a bona fide Zeiss. The intricate and complicated details on the mount and the complete absence of hex or philips head screws virtually guarantee that it's not a modern fake. I mean, look at the details, it would take lots of expensive machining to fake this thing to this degree of historical accuracy.

And I've seen AS 110/1300 objectives before, so they unquestionably exist as well.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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terraclarke
Post Laureate
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Reged: 05/29/12

Loc: Just South of the Mason-Dixon ...
Re: Zeiss scope new [Re: starman876]
      #6190524 - 11/12/13 11:55 AM

Quote:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Altes-KRIEGSMARINE-Gros-Teleskop-ZEISS-30X-45X-60X-mi...

After looking at the carl zeiss jena logos on my scopes I can see why they say the lettering on ebay scope does not look right. The Zeiss logos are very consistant over the years and do not vary in style. Talk about being HOODWINKED




My early Telementor T1 has no Zeiss logos or markings whatsoever. Part of that reason is due to legal dispute over who had the rights to use the name, the Carl Zeiss Jena Germany company in the East, or the portion of the company in the West. The Telementors were made in the East, and given that the government was Communist, there may have been ideological reasoning about using logos and labels as well.


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fjs
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 03/25/13

Loc: Olympic Peninsula, USA
Re: Zeiss scope new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #6190554 - 11/12/13 12:09 PM

Hiya Thomas,

Maybe you can read the discussion on the forum provided here:

Quote:

Hi all,
This scope seems to be creating a bit of a stir across the pond too. Google Translator helped me through this.

Zeiss discussion on German astronomy forum.

--------------------
JoeRBiker




I don't quite follow all that is being said. Google Translate is not quite getting it done for me. I think in one of the last posts the seller is saying it was made in Italy under license by Zeiss. There is also a photo on the first page purporting to show the same scope, before restoration, by an Italian name. It sure looks like the identical scope.

Thanks


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Astrojensen
Post Laureate
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Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Zeiss scope new [Re: terraclarke]
      #6190555 - 11/12/13 12:09 PM

Quote:

However, the lettered Carl Zeiss labels seem too numerous.




What do you mean? I only see text on the lens cell, the focuser cell and the porro prism. The focuser is unusual, in that it is a helical design, so perhaps Zeiss put the letters on the focuser cell, instead of on the focuser, as they usually did. Remember, the letters on the lens cell are usually hidden by the dew shield (or sun shade, which is probably more correct).

Quote:

Here is one other thing to consider, wouldn't a telescope that was mounted shipboard not utilize a tripod?




The Kriegsmarine of course also had support troops on land.

Quote:

One last point, does anyone else think the OTA appears to be too short for an F13 instrument? Of course this is a terrestrial telescope meant to use a porro-prism, yet it still seems short to me. If you actually make some measurements off of the photograph, it comes out to be more of an F8 or F9.




If you compare with the scopes on page 26 on this 1928 Zeiss catalogue, you'll see that the 110/1300mm instruments are indeed looking a bit short. This is because of the rather forward position of the objective in the sun shade/dew shield and the oversized tubes Zeiss used. The tubes for 110mm scopes are about 130mm OD.

http://geogdata.csun.edu/~voltaire/classics/zeiss/zeiss_1928_catalog.pdf


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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starman876
Post Laureate
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Reged: 04/28/08

Loc: VA
Re: Zeiss scope new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #6190703 - 11/12/13 01:28 PM

If one looks closely at the Carl Ziess Jena lettering in the symbol you will see the letters are not the same as seen on hundreds of carl ziess jena logos I have seen. The "C" is not the same, the "J" is different, the "A" is different. The Carl Zeiss is not centered properly. the "E" is different. If you look closely, you will see what I mean.

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ngc2289
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Reged: 04/13/05

Loc: Corpus Christi, TX.
Re: 1981 C5 outside Boston new [Re: fjs]
      #6190718 - 11/12/13 01:39 PM

Yeah for that price you should buy it!

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Copernicus1473
super member


Reged: 07/06/12

Re: 1981 C5 outside Boston new [Re: BGeoghegan]
      #6190754 - 11/12/13 01:58 PM

If you are going to buy it can you let me know? I am trying to figure a way to get down there to look at it. I don't want to buy it if another CNer is going after it.

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fjs
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 03/25/13

Loc: Olympic Peninsula, USA
Re: 1981 C5 outside Boston new [Re: BGeoghegan]
      #6190756 - 11/12/13 01:59 PM

Quote:

Even a lovely orange C5 has too much functional overlap with my Q4.
Bob G




Hmmm... 4"...5". Mak-Cass...Schmidt-Cass.
Nope, I'm not seeing the overlap.


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terraclarke
Post Laureate
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Reged: 05/29/12

Loc: Just South of the Mason-Dixon ...
Re: Zeiss scope new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #6190850 - 11/12/13 02:50 PM

Thank you for clearing those points up Thomas. You have much more experience in matters Zeiss than I, and I most appreciate your input. My first inclination was that the telescope was the genuine article, then I began to wonder if it might possibly not be. Now I am leaning back towards my original premise. It will be most interesting to see how this all turns out. It is indeed, a very interesting telescope.

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terraclarke
Post Laureate
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Reged: 05/29/12

Loc: Just South of the Mason-Dixon ...
Re: 1981 C5 outside Boston new [Re: BGeoghegan]
      #6190853 - 11/12/13 02:51 PM

Somebody out to snap this up. It looks like a really nice little vintage C5 at a great price, and they are purported to be great scopes.

Terra


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Astrojensen
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Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Zeiss scope [Re: terraclarke]
      #6190902 - 11/12/13 03:10 PM

The Germans over on Astrotreff.de are extremely sceptical about the Zeiss 110/1300 spottingscope. It appears to be a fake. There's pictures of a completely identical instrument from Filotechnica Salmoiraghi.

http://www.astrotreff.de/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=158071

Zeiss experts with access to archives have been unable to find anything identical made by Zeiss. A response from the seller claims that the scope is a prototype for the telescopes later built by Salmoiraghi under license from Zeiss...

I now understand my confusion and why I was initially fooled. The scope really IS old, but it's not a Zeiss (though the porro prism might be, who knows) it just looks a lot like one.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark

Heavily edited. I had skimmed the German forum too quickly and was too tired to pick up all the details.

Edited by Astrojensen (11/12/13 03:21 PM)


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