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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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Stew57
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/03/09

Loc: Silsbee Texas
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6246686 - 12/11/13 10:07 AM

I wish I had need of his expertise and services!

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Spacetravelerx
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/23/12

Loc: New Mexico
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: psandelle]
      #6246713 - 12/11/13 10:19 AM

Quote:

Andrew - sorry to correct your correction, but bacon is so June 8th, 2011...it's now CHOCOLATE-COVERED BACON for all.

I don't really mind figuring the "etymology" of the CEM60, one man's GEM is another man's English Cross-Axis (and what about the Welsh Cross-Axis, them Welsh NEVER get any love), it makes me read cool articles and look stuff up. (Not to be confused with the entomology of the CEM60...as I'm hoping it doesn't have a lot of bugs.)

I think the bottom-line is iOptron is trying a rarer configuration (old, new, borrowed, or blue) that we don't usually see in amateur astronomy in an attempt to give a better weight-to-load ratio at a lower price. Which is great!

Now we're just hoping it performs well, which'll mean another great choice for all of us looking for new gear in the new year.

Paul





Excellent 2nd point! The main point is does it work? If it does, this will be great.


I don't know about your first point though…must be a California thing

Right now I am hooked on the thick cut, hickory smoked variety of bacon!


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psandelle
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/18/08

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: Spacetravelerx]
      #6246733 - 12/11/13 10:33 AM

Andrew: "Right now I am hooked on the thick cut, hickory smoked variety of bacon!"

Hey, classics are classics and never go out of style....

Paul


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Christopher Erickson
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/08/06

Loc: Waikoloa Village, Hawaii
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: Stew57]
      #6246925 - 12/11/13 12:28 PM

Quote:

Quote:

But heck, people can believe whatever they want. Just because I design, build and repair professional observatories for a living doesn't mean anyone has to listen to me!




Shouldn't you be listed as a vendor then?




I work on professional observatories, not amateur ones.


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Christopher Erickson
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/08/06

Loc: Waikoloa Village, Hawaii
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: Spacetravelerx]
      #6246942 - 12/11/13 12:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:

…Clear skies and chocolate for all.




Dude, get with the times!

It is now BACON for all. Chocolate is so 1980's…






I sure wish I could eat bacon with the wild enthusiasm of my youth but alas, it isn't to be so.

Getting older means a lot of things and having to cut back on the bacon, chocolate and caffeine is part of it.

What a bummer!


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Christopher Erickson
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/08/06

Loc: Waikoloa Village, Hawaii
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: Stew57]
      #6246952 - 12/11/13 12:42 PM

Quote:

I wish I had need of his expertise and services!




If you ever do then you can get it for free over in the Observatories forum.

Of course I annoy some people over there too. Not that I want to (I don't) but sometimes I suspect that my advice goes directly against what someone else has already committed-to and built. Unfortunately.


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Christopher Erickson
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/08/06

Loc: Waikoloa Village, Hawaii
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: Christopher Erickson]
      #6247007 - 12/11/13 01:04 PM

On another note, look how closely the ZEQ25 mount looks like the 30-year-old IAC80.

http://ioptron.com/images/up/ZEQ25_2013.jpg

http://www.iac.es/telescopes/media/Galeria_publica/Instalaciones/IAC80/cupula...


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freestar8n
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/12/07

Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: Christopher Erickson]
      #6248321 - 12/12/13 03:42 AM

The IAC80 is unusual because it is mostly an equatorial fork, but the OTA is not fully balanced and requires an offset counterweight on the polar axis. That counterweight does not balance the entire weight of the telescope - just the offset.

It is very unusual in that the fork is on the lower side of the polar axis bearing. That allows the pier to be high up while the Cassegrain focus is down low - but I think that is very rare.

If the OTA were balanced in the fork there would be no need for a counterweight and it would be a normal equatorial fork mount, but again with the fork on the lower side of the polar axis.

The CEM60 is not a fork and the counterweight on the dec. axis is required to balance the full weight of the OTA. The fact that the dec. axis does not extend straight through the polar axis, as in English Cross, means the polar axis bearing can be short and directly on top of the pier. The fact that the dec. weight is offset and can be set at an arbitrary angle means the mount can accommodate high and low latitudes well.

So I would place them all in very distinct categories. The IAC80 is mostly an upside down fork with unbalanced OTA. The CEM60 is mostly a german equatorial with a dec. axis bearing centered in the two halves of the polar axis bearing - and with an offset and angle-adjustable dec. weight. There is no actual axis cross, so it clearly isn't a cross-axis mount.

I think it makes sense to refer to the CEM as a CEM, or Chinese Equatorial Mount. I don't know of a similar offering on the market, and it has several novel features that warrant a new entry in the taxonomy.

Frank


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cloudywest
member


Reged: 06/15/13

Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: freestar8n]
      #6251959 - 12/13/13 11:42 PM

Yes, the IAC8 is a fork equatorial. A fork equatorial is actually an alt-azi with a tilted "azimuth" axis pointed at the Pole. The goto algorithm of a fork mount is different from an EQ mount. Jimmy

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Christopher Erickson
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/08/06

Loc: Waikoloa Village, Hawaii
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: cloudywest]
      #6252133 - 12/14/13 05:23 AM

Quote:

Yes, the IAC8 is a fork equatorial. A fork equatorial is actually an alt-azi with a tilted "azimuth" axis pointed at the Pole. The goto algorithm of a fork mount is different from an EQ mount. Jimmy




If one axis is pointed at True North then it is an equatorial mount. Regardless of what else it might be.

Equatorial vs. Altitude-Azimuth.


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cloudywest
member


Reged: 06/15/13

Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: Christopher Erickson]
      #6252456 - 12/14/13 11:07 AM

No argue it is an equatorial mount when an axis is pointed at True North. There might be no difference a fork EQ to other EQ if it is a push-to. But a GOTO fork equatorial is truly different from other GOTO EQ mounts. The goto algorithm of a fork equatorial is the same as an Altitude-Azimuth.

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Astronewb
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 09/19/11

Loc: Connecticut
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: cloudywest]
      #6255759 - 12/16/13 07:50 AM

Just an update, despite 'what type of mount it is'..:)

I have received word that the CEM60 and CEM60EC's are on track for initial deliveries in mid-January, barring any unforeseen surprises.

It appears beta testing has gone well, and the standard CEM60 will be rated at 5.0 arc-seconds, peak to peak.

The CEM60EC (absolute encoders) will be rated at .5 arc-seconds, peak to peak.

It will be interesting to see what the retail pricing will be.

Just for info,

Happy Holidays all...Paul


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whwang
sage


Reged: 03/20/13

Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: Astronewb]
      #6255784 - 12/16/13 08:16 AM

wow.... 0.5" peak to peak......
if the price is really ~$4000 as rumoured, i will get one.


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Stew57
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/03/09

Loc: Silsbee Texas
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: whwang]
      #6255815 - 12/16/13 08:48 AM

It certainly is on my short list along with the EQ8. I wish I knew what Celestron had up their sleeve. I did have a talk on the phone a year ago where they hinted at absolute encoders and asked if it was something that customers would really pay extra for. Ioptron looks like they beat them to it.

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Astronewb
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 09/19/11

Loc: Connecticut
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. [Re: whwang]
      #6255818 - 12/16/13 08:50 AM

Quote:

wow.... 0.5" peak to peak......
if the price is really ~$4000 as rumoured, i will get one.




If that proves to be true, and considering what the price points are for other mounts that are capable of achieving sub arc-second periodic error, you would be a fool not to.

Especially for a astrophotographer, for visual, even the standard CEM60 would exceed the specs of most 'high end' mounts currently in production.

Just my humble opinion..Paul


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Spacetravelerx
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/23/12

Loc: New Mexico
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. [Re: Astronewb]
      #6255820 - 12/16/13 08:54 AM

Quote:

Quote:

wow.... 0.5" peak to peak......
if the price is really ~$4000 as rumoured, i will get one.




If that proves to be true, and considering what the price points are for other mounts that are capable of achieving sub arc-second periodic error, you would be a fool not to.

Especially for a astrophotographer, for visual, even the standard CEM60 would exceed the specs of most 'high end' mounts currently in production.

Just my humble opinion..Paul





Well this number is exciting if it holds to be true. I think I am near the top on the wait list to get one of these things.

It the performance is truly 0.5" p-p, then the price point is truly Earth shaking. The question is how are they able to build a mount with encoders so cheap? Is the hope the economies of scale drive the price down?


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Astronewb
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 09/19/11

Loc: Connecticut
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. [Re: Spacetravelerx]
      #6255839 - 12/16/13 09:04 AM

Quote:

The question is how are they able to build a mount with encoders so cheap? Is the hope the economies of scale drive the price down?




Well, my guess is, if the Chinese have just landed a spacecraft on the moon, then certainly some company in China can produce inexpensive absolute encoders?

Cheers...Paul


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cloudywest
member


Reged: 06/15/13

Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. [Re: Astronewb]
      #6255844 - 12/16/13 09:07 AM

The words I got from iOptron tech support last Friday was +/-5 arc sec, and +/- 0.5 arc sec for the absolute encoder.
See the email:

From: iOptron Tech 1 [mailto:tech1@ioptron.com]
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 5:38 PM
To: 'Cloudywest'
Subject: RE: CEM 60

We plan to have some limited units ready next month. We will soon announce the spec and price, which include PE about +/- 5 arc sec and +/- 0.5 arc sec (typical), respectively, for #7200 ($2499) and #7201 ($3899). 7201 is high precision (absolute) encoder version.


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andysea
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 09/03/10

Loc: Seattle, WA
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. [Re: cloudywest]
      #6255950 - 12/16/13 10:12 AM

With a PE of 10arc sec Point to point I wonder if the absolute encoders are even needed. If the PE is smooth is can easily be guided out.

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whwang
sage


Reged: 03/20/13

Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. [Re: andysea]
      #6255998 - 12/16/13 10:34 AM

If the PE can be reduced to within 3 or 4 arcsec (P to P), then it would eliminate the need for guiding for a broad range of optics/camera combinations. I consider this a great plus for simplifying the system in terms of total weight (no need for a guides cope) and power consumption in the field.

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