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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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nomosnow
sage


Reged: 03/21/11

Loc: Fort Saskatchewan,Ab ,Canada
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: whwang]
      #6256191 - 12/16/13 12:33 PM

Does the precision model have encoders on both the Ra and Dec axis , or is it just on the RA axis ?
If it is just on the RA axis then for my uses I think I would still have to guide.


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kyang
member
*****

Reged: 12/09/12

Loc: Fremont, CA
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: whwang]
      #6256337 - 12/16/13 01:55 PM

Are we going to be able to use CEM60 with AP-Eagle-Tripod ?

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PGW Steve
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/03/06

Loc: Winnipeg, Canada
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: kyang]
      #6256507 - 12/16/13 03:34 PM

Just because a mount has negligible PE due to encoders does NOT mean you can run unguided for a long time. Don't forget that your polar alignment, atmospheric refraction, mirror flop and system flex are all doing their best to mess with your stars.
There is no holy grail of unguided imaging. Software Bisque does an admirable job with ProTrack, and the yet to be released APCC from Astro-Physics/Ray Gralak will model and compensate for most repeatable variables.
I've got an A-P1600 with encoders and a very precise polar alignment and still have a love affair with my OAG.


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whwang
sage


Reged: 03/20/13

Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: PGW Steve]
      #6257088 - 12/16/13 09:16 PM

Whether guiding is needed of course depends on many factors. In my earlier post, I mentioned "a broad range of optics/camera combinations." I did not say "in all cases." In many cases (for exampling, shooting a 300/F2.8 lens with a decent DSLR), we only need subs of two to five minutes. We don't need to track accurately for a long time. Just a few minutes (a small fraction of a period) is enough. Over long time, there will be tracking errors, but that doesn't matter. You get point-like stars in each sub, and natural dither across the subs.

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jrcrillyAdministrator
Refractor wienie no more
*****

Reged: 04/30/03

Loc: NE Ohio
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: whwang]
      #6257111 - 12/16/13 09:25 PM

Quote:

In many cases (for exampling, shooting a 300/F2.8 lens with a decent DSLR), we only need subs of two to five minutes. We don't need to track accurately for a long time. Just a few minutes (a small fraction of a period) is enough.




You get away with that because of image scale, not exposure time. A few minutes is not a small fraction of the period of any commonly seen mount. Most range between 360 tooth worm wheels (4 minute period) and 180 tooth worm wheels (8 minute period) - and most are nearer 360 teeth than 180.


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Astronewb
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 09/19/11

Loc: Connecticut
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: jrcrilly]
      #6257172 - 12/16/13 09:53 PM

Quote:

Does the precision model have encoders on both the Ra and Dec axis , or is it just on the RA axis ?
If it is just on the RA axis then for my uses I think I would still have to guide.




The EC model will have an 'very high' encoder on the RA shaft only, supplementing the high precision stepper encoder wheel. It will operate in 'RPEC' real time PEC, so will constantly correct for any deviation in PE.

With an accurate initial polar alignment, or drift align, corrections in DEC should be minimal, and not needed except for very long exposures, or very long focal lengths.

With the TDM on the iE45GT, I use an autoguider set at 5 second exposures, with the guide rate set at 25% in the mount, just to keep the DEC in control and on track.

The really nice feature about high precision encoders is the minimal affect wind has on the exposures, you can basically forget about normal wind up to 6-8 mph. That's with a AT10RC with a dew shield, I don't have any first hand experience with a long refractor.

Oh, and a correction on the PE ratings. I mis-spoke, the standard version will be +/- 5 arc-seconds, so 10 arc-seconds peak to peak. The EC version will be rated at +/- .5 arc-seconds, so 1.0 arc-seconds peak to peak.

My apologies for any confusion about the PE ratings. Of course, with guiding those numbers will probably diminish quite a bit and will still be excellent.

Regards...Paul


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Astronewb
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 09/19/11

Loc: Connecticut
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: Astronewb]
      #6257183 - 12/16/13 09:57 PM

Quote:

Are we going to be able to use CEM60 with AP-Eagle-Tripod ?




I believe with the proper adapter, almost any mount can be fitted to the excellent AP-Eagle tripod?

The mount will be sold without a tripod, which makes it an excellent candidate for whatever support system you want to mount it on.

It will bolt right up the existing 2" iOptron tripod and piers.

Clear skies...Paul


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andysea
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 09/03/10

Loc: Seattle, WA
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: whwang]
      #6257204 - 12/16/13 10:07 PM

Quote:

Whether guiding is needed of course depends on many factors. In my earlier post, I mentioned "a broad range of optics/camera combinations." I did not say "in all cases." In many cases (for exampling, shooting a 300/F2.8 lens with a decent DSLR), we only need subs of two to five minutes. We don't need to track accurately for a long time. Just a few minutes (a small fraction of a period) is enough. Over long time, there will be tracking errors, but that doesn't matter. You get point-like stars in each sub, and natural dither across the subs.




True, I can do unguided imaging with my 200mm f2.8 and even 300mm f4 when I use my Kenko skymemo. And the skymemo does not have any encoders, it's just a simple tracker similar to the astro track and others.


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whwang
sage


Reged: 03/20/13

Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: andysea]
      #6257389 - 12/17/13 12:48 AM

The mount I currently use for my 300/F2.8 cannot track for more than 1 minute without guiding. If this 300/F2.8 is the only lens I plan to use, I would happily buy a skymemo after seeing your testimony. On the other hand, I also plan to use my TAK E180ED on whatever mount I am upgrading to. So the skymemo is out of consideration. For my purpose, any mount with >20 kg load capacity, possibility of doing +/-0.5 arcsec unguided tracking for 1 to 3 minutes, plus a <$4000 price tag, will be very attractive to me. If CEM60 can do this with my TAK E180ED on it, I can just leave it unattended for an hour or two, and pay more attention to my TOA150+EM400, which does require guiding and a lot more attention.

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andysea
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 09/03/10

Loc: Seattle, WA
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: whwang]
      #6257458 - 12/17/13 02:27 AM

Yeah I put my name down for this new mount and I may get it even tho it's a bit of an overlap with my other mounts. It looks very promising so far.

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whwang
sage


Reged: 03/20/13

Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: andysea]
      #6257464 - 12/17/13 02:34 AM

Yes indeed. For new products like this, I used to tell people to wait for a production cycle or two before buying, just to see if there are problems. But now I feel so excited by all the promising reports, and don't feel like to wait at all. Hope the wait won't be too long for you.

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dvb
different Syndrome.
*****

Reged: 06/18/05

Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: whwang]
      #6257479 - 12/17/13 03:04 AM

Still waiting for a price?

Until I hear the mount offered for sale for a price, it's still vapour ware.


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Astronewb
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 09/19/11

Loc: Connecticut
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: dvb]
      #6257894 - 12/17/13 10:52 AM

Quote:

Still waiting for a price?

Until I hear the mount offered for sale for a price, it's still vapour ware.




It would appear that the price points have been determined.

Quote:

We plan to have some limited units ready next month. We will soon announce the spec and price, which include PE about +/- 5 arc sec and +/- 0.5 arc sec (typical), respectively, for #7200 ($2499) and #7201 ($3899). 7201 is high precision (absolute) encoder version




If iOptron intends on delivering initial units in mid-January, they should be adding pricing to the website over the next couple of weeks.

I'm in for a EC model, should be a great match for a long, heavy Istar refractor? Now to convince myself I need a long/heavy refractor...:)

Happy Holidays...Paul


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Pinbout
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 02/22/10

Loc: nj
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: Astronewb]
      #6259042 - 12/17/13 09:48 PM

can you explain this.

when the 45 came out gt was for the renishaw encoder version.

but now with the z gt doesn't mean that anymore, but with the 60 its now ec means the abs.encoder.



or at least when I spoke to the president at NEAF several times thats what he told me [before the EC came out]


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cloudywest
member


Reged: 06/15/13

Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. [Re: Pinbout]
      #6259237 - 12/17/13 11:39 PM

ioptron tech support wrote me and made correction on the encoder. It was not “absolute” encoder. Since CEM60 had automatic zero function (the mount could go back to zero if power was interrupted), he mistakenly thought it had absolute encoder. Jimmy

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orlyandico
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 08/10/09

Loc: Singapore
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. [Re: cloudywest]
      #6259331 - 12/18/13 01:11 AM

aha. if it's a relative encoder then this is the same technology as the TDM.

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dvb
different Syndrome.
*****

Reged: 06/18/05

Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. [Re: Astronewb]
      #6259359 - 12/18/13 01:51 AM

Quote:



It would appear that the price points have been determined.

Quote:

We plan to have some limited units ready next month. We will soon announce the spec and price, which include PE about +/- 5 arc sec and +/- 0.5 arc sec (typical), respectively, for #7200 ($2499) and #7201 ($3899). 7201 is high precision (absolute) encoder version




If iOptron intends on delivering initial units in mid-January, they should be adding pricing to the website over the next couple of weeks.

Happy Holidays...Paul




Thanks, Paul. Those prices seem quite reasonable, especially if the mount has a greater capacity than the NEQ6 with a significantly lighter head weight.

I'll just be waiting to see how it handles an encounter with the South Meridian. . . .


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Pinbout
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 02/22/10

Loc: nj
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. [Re: orlyandico]
      #6259602 - 12/18/13 08:22 AM

Quote:

aha. if it's a relative encoder then this is the same technology as the TDM.





when the 45gt [renishaw encoder] 1st came out the pres. told me that they were working on making their own instead of spending $1,500 on the encoder which made them pass that cost + markup to us.

so whats the cost of a tdm, $1700 + $400 for adapter.

what will ioptron's high precision encoder cost. their suppose to make it for other mounts also not just the 60.


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crow
sage
*****

Reged: 07/09/12

Loc: BC, Canada
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. [Re: Pinbout]
      #6264239 - 12/20/13 06:12 PM

I've just been looking at some pics online. This thing has USB!

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nomosnow
sage


Reged: 03/21/11

Loc: Fort Saskatchewan,Ab ,Canada
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. [Re: crow]
      #6265519 - 12/21/13 03:42 PM Attachment (49 downloads)

Hi
I was wondering if someone could interpret these Pempro graphs and also the raw text file of the standard CEM 60. I believe this was done when beta testing and possibly done by ioptron staff??
It looks pretty smooth to me and much better the my iEQ45 . Possibly due to the stepper motor drive eliminating the planetary gear train on the iEQ45 servo motors and that pesky high speed hard to guide out error.


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