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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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Spacetravelerx
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/23/12

Loc: New Mexico
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: tjugo]
      #6207504 - 11/21/13 12:38 PM

I just caught the imaging load limit. 30 lbs is a little low to me, but if it can do 40 lbs I would feel better.

Main use for this mount for me is portability with high precision out in the field. My LXD75 is serving as a light weight grab and go with very good gotos and reasonable tracking unguided for wide field. The LX850 handles heavy loads, precise tracking, out of the box multiple OTAs, handles long focal lengths, and the magic of StarLock - but this is going into a permanent installation.

I see the CEM60, for me anyways, filling the middle ground - precise tracking AND able to take out in the field for a competitive cost. I won't put my 14" on it, but I will use my 130mm APO on it. Love to get an AP 175mm, but those are totally unavailable and likely beyond the limit of this mount anyways.

ASCOM - until there is something for the Macintosh, it is a non-issue for me. Support for SkySafari - now we are talking!


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Hilmi
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Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: Spacetravelerx]
      #6207562 - 11/21/13 01:16 PM

There seems to be a lot of misinterpretation. 30 Lbs imaging load was a number I said I would be comfortable with. iOptron support said rule of thumb was 1/2 to 2/3 rated capacity. So just because I said 30 Lbs doesnt make it fact (as much as I am flattered that people would take whatever I say as 100% correct)

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Astronewb
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Reged: 09/19/11

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Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: tjugo]
      #6207580 - 11/21/13 01:23 PM

Quote:

Since you are close to iOptron why you don't try to persuade them to open the mount control protocol so 3rd party contol suites can be written to control their mount? I am sure that with the right attitude, support and maybe an incentive they can persuade the EQMOD dev team to port the control suite to iOptron mounts. This will boost iOptron's sales for sure. For instance after returning my ZEQ25 I bought an Orion Sirius just because it runs with EQMOD




Just forwarded your comment to the folks at iOptron. It would be quite some effort and time for the Synta gurus at EQMOD to develop an interface for the iOptron mount I'm sure. And it would require the necessary support from iOptron naturally.

Let's hope it happens some day?

Cheers...Paul


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orlyandico
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Reged: 08/10/09

Loc: Singapore
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: Astronewb]
      #6207610 - 11/21/13 01:43 PM

don't hold your breath re: EQMOD support.

EQMOD is a complete mount controller for Synta mounts. The Synta motor control board is completely dumb, all it knows to do is execute steps and provide a count of steps executed on the RA and DEC.

all the math to do GoTo aligns, convert from axis counts to RA and DEC, etc. are done in the handset, or alternatively, in EQMOD.

it completely makes no sense to force EQMOD to talk to an iOptron controller which is smart enough on its own.

If you were driving a CEM60, and the ASCOM driver is as robust as its claimed to be, you would be using MaximDL, not EQMOD. This mount is expensive enough that MaximDL is well worth it.


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Wmacky
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Reged: 11/24/07

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Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: Hilmi]
      #6207778 - 11/21/13 03:34 PM

Quote:

There seems to be a lot of misinterpretation. 30 Lbs imaging load was a number I said I would be comfortable with. iOptron support said rule of thumb was 1/2 to 2/3 rated capacity. So just because I said 30 Lbs doesnt make it fact (as much as I am flattered that people would take whatever I say as 100% correct)




Perhaps I should just wait and see. I would need this mount to be rock solid with the C11, and a mid weight imaging train. I would be disapointed if it were was any less stable than my classic CGE. The lighter weight has me worried, and as this will go into a observatory, offers no benefit for me.

Edited by Wmacky (11/21/13 03:35 PM)


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Whichwayisnorth
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Reged: 07/04/11

Loc: Southern California
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: Wmacky]
      #6207804 - 11/21/13 03:50 PM

EdgeHD 11" weighs 28 pounds. A reducer and a DSLR wouldn't way very much at all and with a 50mm mini guide scope and camera (or off axis guider) you would be right about at 30 pounds. Shouldn't be a problem at all. However it is when you start adding heavy CCD cameras, rotators, focusers, elaborate guide systems that you get up to the 40 pound range. That is where I start to be concerned.

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tjugo
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 11/06/07

Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6207858 - 11/21/13 04:21 PM

Quote:

don't hold your breath re: EQMOD support.

EQMOD is a complete mount controller for Synta mounts. The Synta motor control board is completely dumb, all it knows to do is execute steps and provide a count of steps executed on the RA and DEC.

all the math to do GoTo aligns, convert from axis counts to RA and DEC, etc. are done in the handset, or alternatively, in EQMOD.

it completely makes no sense to force EQMOD to talk to an iOptron controller which is smart enough on its own.

If you were driving a CEM60, and the ASCOM driver is as robust as its claimed to be, you would be using MaximDL, not EQMOD. This mount is expensive enough that MaximDL is well worth it.




This comment is misleading. MaximDL is not able to control any mount, it just talk to the mounts and commands high level actions. I use MaximDL to talk to EQMOD on my Atlas.

EQMOD does a lot lot more than just keep track of the motor ticks.

When I started using EQMOD I was very close to the yahoo group and it is very clear that only Syntha is supported because at one point in time Syntha supported the project. A couple of years ago Syntha opened their control protocol. Many times I read in the EQMOD forum that the project was only supporting Syntha because there were no documentation of other manufactures protocols.

One thing that is very nice about EQMOD is that you have access to the developers, you can request features, and the bug fixes are fast. Try to file a bug report to Celestron :/

Cheers,

Jose


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tjugo
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 11/06/07

Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: Astronewb]
      #6207864 - 11/21/13 04:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Since you are close to iOptron why you don't try to persuade them to open the mount control protocol so 3rd party contol suites can be written to control their mount? I am sure that with the right attitude, support and maybe an incentive they can persuade the EQMOD dev team to port the control suite to iOptron mounts. This will boost iOptron's sales for sure. For instance after returning my ZEQ25 I bought an Orion Sirius just because it runs with EQMOD




Just forwarded your comment to the folks at iOptron. It would be quite some effort and time for the Synta gurus at EQMOD to develop an interface for the iOptron mount I'm sure. And it would require the necessary support from iOptron naturally.

Let's hope it happens some day?

Cheers...Paul




Thanks Paul!

Acutually I remember using a .NET control program to drive the ZEQ25, the program was provided by iOptron and it reassembled EQMOD, unfortunately the program was alpha and full of bugs!

Cheers,

Jose


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corpusse
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/11/10

Loc: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: tjugo]
      #6208587 - 11/21/13 11:24 PM

Why are they even rating this for visual use? It's clearly designed with imaging in mind.

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orlyandico
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Reged: 08/10/09

Loc: Singapore
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: corpusse]
      #6209325 - 11/22/13 12:27 PM

Because "cem40" doesn't sound as good?

EQMOD is an ASCOM driver. A very complex one, but an ASCOM driver nonetheless. And it provides the smarts to Synta mounts. A Synta mount without its handset or EQMOD is a dead weight.

But say an AP mount without its handset is still fully functional.

So no, EQMOD will almost certainly never support other mounts. Because other mounts are smarter than the Synta motor board.


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moligpy
member


Reged: 11/22/10

Loc: Santa Clara, California
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6209458 - 11/22/13 01:25 PM

The payload is definitely 60 lbs, not 30 to 40 lbs, so the name will be CEM60, not CEM40.
Hilmi says if payload is between 30 to 40 lbs, the mount may have a better performance, not the maximum payload.


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Spacetravelerx
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/23/12

Loc: New Mexico
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: moligpy]
      #6209467 - 11/22/13 01:28 PM

Quote:

The payload is definitely 60 lbs, not 30 to 40 lbs, so the name will be CEM60, not CEM40.
Hilmi says if payload is between 30 to 40 lbs, the mount may have a better performance, not the maximum payload.




Probably the question is more can the unit handle a load of 60 lbs for AP? It sounds like for AP on 30-40 lbs, based on the vendor response.

But I guess bottom line the question is what is the load for AP?


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Astronewb
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Reged: 09/19/11

Loc: Connecticut
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: Spacetravelerx]
      #6209936 - 11/22/13 05:42 PM

Quote:

But I guess bottom line the question is what is the load for AP?




That question will have to wait for an answer until we get some field tests in from users.

However, based on my experience with the Z center-balanced mount, the excellent balance characteristics of the design may require some rethinking of the old 60-70% rule for AP.

Since the mount is not trying to move a mass hanging off one side of the fulcrum point, it handles weight very well.

Think of moving a 100 pound load with a hand truck. You would find it hard to move if the hand truck arms were very low, or very high. Once you hit the 'sweet spot', it's very easy to move. The center-balanced design has a 'sweet spot' designed in.

On the iEQ45, with an AT10RC mounted, I have to move the latitude adjuster with the included lever arm. On the ZEQ25, with the same ota, I can move the latitude adjuster with two fingers, so the design works.

Oh, and with the 32 pound ota, on a mount rated for 27 pounds payload (max), I was able to image with it with no issues.

Cheers...Paul

Edited by Astronewb (11/22/13 05:44 PM)


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skywolf856
sage


Reged: 01/25/08

Loc: SE Michigan
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: Astronewb]
      #6210465 - 11/22/13 11:17 PM

With a unique bearing support configuration the payload may be more stable than a traditional GEM. That will potentially give you a higher payload capability.

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Stew57
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Reged: 05/03/09

Loc: Silsbee Texas
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. new [Re: skywolf856]
      #6210477 - 11/22/13 11:24 PM

I would think that AP payload will depend on machine tolerances and not so much the style of GEM chosen. I thought about being put on the preorder list, but after some of the latest out of the box experiences from several companies, I will wait until real world test come out. I will wait for tests and not the "Hey my mount is great" reviews. I guess I am a numbers kind of guy.

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Carl N
sage
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Reged: 03/18/12

Loc: San Diego, CA
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. [Re: skywolf856]
      #6210513 - 11/22/13 11:52 PM

I appreciate the more thoughtful, and on point, parts of this thread.

As someone who is on a deadline to decide on a mount for a new observatory, I have concluded these are the three more salient points to consider if one wants to risk buying a first run of this model vs. the alternatives in the sub $4,000 price range.

1. How much does the personal inspection and tested to the less than 1 arc sec pec guarantee offset the concern of DOA? For the real time pec model.

2. How much is one willing to gamble that this new design does indeed accomplish what skywolf suggests? Thereby getting me the payload capacity I desire, 50-51 lbs, along with what seems to be an outstanding feature set and size for a 6' domed observatory.

3. How much is one willing to gamble on buying the first run from anyone? I hate buying first run anything as a rule.

Pondering..........


Carl


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Spacetravelerx
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/23/12

Loc: New Mexico
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. [Re: Astronewb]
      #6210561 - 11/23/13 12:36 AM

Quote:

Quote:

But I guess bottom line the question is what is the load for AP?




That question will have to wait for an answer until we get some field tests in from users.

However, based on my experience with the Z center-balanced mount, the excellent balance characteristics of the design may require some rethinking of the old 60-70% rule for AP.

Since the mount is not trying to move a mass hanging off one side of the fulcrum point, it handles weight very well.

Think of moving a 100 pound load with a hand truck. You would find it hard to move if the hand truck arms were very low, or very high. Once you hit the 'sweet spot', it's very easy to move. The center-balanced design has a 'sweet spot' designed in.

On the iEQ45, with an AT10RC mounted, I have to move the latitude adjuster with the included lever arm. On the ZEQ25, with the same ota, I can move the latitude adjuster with two fingers, so the design works.

Oh, and with the 32 pound ota, on a mount rated for 27 pounds payload (max), I was able to image with it with no issues.

Cheers...Paul





OkI just know I am going to get flamed for this next statement!

Hopefully, we do NOT have rely on field tests from users on the basic performance. Now, I know when I got the LX850 it was a "new" release, but it really wasn't - the LX800 was the first (and bad iteration).

I would really like to see the system flushed out with true specs before it gets out in the field. The concept looks excellent for taking out in the field for a competitive price and system weight class IF it can go up to 60 lbs for AP (or close to it), especially for the encoder version which I am interested in. It will likely be paired with the SBIG STX-16803 or similar class (which will also be on the LX850) and either 130mm APO or 10" instrument (I am really and loathe to travel around New Mexico and the country with the 14" OTA).

I like that my LX850 can go up to 90 lbs visual and AP. It would be nice to see the CEM60 go to 60 lbs or close to it, especially when I travel to White Sands or Chaco Canyon - or Eastern Oregon (WONDERFUL THERE TOO!).

So regarding field testing - give me a buzz. I will test it out for iOptron I have some projects we can put it on...


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dvb
different Syndrome.
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Reged: 06/18/05

Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. [Re: Spacetravelerx]
      #6210566 - 11/23/13 12:41 AM

I find the iEQ45 over-states its load for visual - mine does not do well with even a 35 lb OTA, if it is the 48" long tube of my Newt. It might do better with a shorter tube, like a SCT.


So, I won't be surprised to hear that the CEM60 is also over-stated for visual, and for imaging.


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Wmacky
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Reged: 11/24/07

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Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. [Re: dvb]
      #6210650 - 11/23/13 03:04 AM

Quote:

I find the iEQ45 over-states its load for visual - mine does not do well with even a 35 lb OTA, if it is the 48" long tube of my Newt. It might do better with a shorter tube, like a SCT.


So, I won't be surprised to hear that the CEM60 is also over-stated for visual, and for imaging.




I read that the new small "Z" mount is also overrated for capacity? At least there have been some reports?


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orlyandico
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Re: iOptron CEM60, not a rumor anymore. [Re: Wmacky]
      #6210668 - 11/23/13 03:23 AM

Yup there's a guy on the ZEQ25 thread who sold his Z at a loss, bought a Tak EM11, and reports that the EM11 is far more robust in spite of its 15-lb rating (the ZEQ25 is rated 25-lb). Am beginning to see a pattern here..

I know astronewb says he gets 240-seconds from a ZEQ25 and AT10RC, but that is the only report..


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