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General Astronomy >> Light Pollution

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George N
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/19/06

Loc: Binghamton & Indian Lake NY
The next 25 years; were do we go from here? new
      #6210369 - 11/22/13 10:08 PM

As I'm sure my fellow IDSA Members know, the IDSA's latest 'Nightscape' contains an article on where they hope to go in the next 25 years.

The author makes a few points that I mostly agree with:

1. 75% of LP is caused by "public lighting", like street lights and parking lot lights, not private home lighting. Therefore anti-LP efforts must concentrate on public lighting.

2. This public lighting will soon be totally transformed into white color LED lighting. While these lights are designed with shielding, the increasing level of lumens is more than offsetting this advantage of LED tech. Also, most town & city "decision makers" are unaware of the tech that can be used to adjust the brightness of each street/parking light from a central control, and other new lighting tech.

3. For the rest of it, I'll offer a critical quote from the article:

"..... Until we can convince communities that more light does not necessarily mean increased safety, and safety is not compromised when adaptive controls and (lighting) curfews are used, communities will continue trying to 'light their way out of crime'. ..... There are two hard facts that stand in our way: people are afraid of the dark and cities are afraid of lawsuits. Changing how society thinks about lighting will require a lot of education, but it is the only way to achieve our goals......”

To address these concerns the IDSA is raising funds for research on lighting, crime, and driving safety, and an educational program to bring these findings to "decision makers" and the public. The educational program will cover new tech alternatives to street lights for driving safety.

I personally think that if we don't address this 'fear of the dark' issue and lack of knowledge on what the new tech can accomplish, LP will only continue to increase.


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George N
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/19/06

Loc: Binghamton & Indian Lake NY
Re: The next 25 years; were do we go from here? new [Re: George N]
      #6210380 - 11/22/13 10:20 PM

I recently saw a humorous news story relative to night time 'crime': A famous US fast food restaurant (with big yellow arches) had a problem with 'youth' setting up camp in their parking lot, with resulting crime such as fights, drugs, etc. The bright parking lot lights did not help, nor did calls to the police (kids just returned after the cops left). Then the owner hit on a solution: speakers blasting the lot with continuous classical opera. Within days the 'problem' had left!

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JayinUT
I'm not Sleepy
*****

Reged: 09/19/08

Loc: Utah
Re: The next 25 years; were do we go from here? new [Re: George N]
      #6210530 - 11/23/13 12:06 AM

Hi George,
All the actions are good ones and with the growth in population over the next thirty years there is an increase urgency so it is not worse. Thanks for the info.


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Joe F Gafford
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/15/06

Loc: Denver, Colorado, US
Re: The next 25 years; were do we go from here? new [Re: JayinUT]
      #6211669 - 11/23/13 04:02 PM

George,
That is not new. A convenience store owner had the same problem in the 1990's. He put Yanni on his system with the same results. Another followed with Mozart's Piano Sonatas on his. Yet another tried with similar, but the neighbors in the back complained about the music. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

Joe


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Achernar
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
Re: The next 25 years; were do we go from here? new [Re: George N]
      #6214607 - 11/25/13 08:42 AM

By then deep sky observing will be largely a thing of the past because for one these LED lights are impossible to filter out. White light LED's blanket the entire spectrum with no gaps, and because they generate far more light than previous generations of light fixtures, 25 years from now the skies will make today's look dark by comparison. Their directionality and the fact they can be dimmed and switched on or off instantaneously make controlling light pollution simpler, true. However, most people want MORE light outdoors, not less.

Taras


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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: The next 25 years; were do we go from here? new [Re: Achernar]
      #6215472 - 11/25/13 03:46 PM

Probably we'll still be waiting for a clear night....danged clouds........

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Phil Cowell
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/24/07

Loc: Southern Tier NY
Re: The next 25 years; were do we go from here? new [Re: George N]
      #6215756 - 11/25/13 05:54 PM

Quote:

I recently saw a humorous news story relative to night time 'crime': A famous US fast food restaurant (with big yellow arches) had a problem with 'youth' setting up camp in their parking lot, with resulting crime such as fights, drugs, etc. The bright parking lot lights did not help, nor did calls to the police (kids just returned after the cops left). Then the owner hit on a solution: speakers blasting the lot with continuous classical opera. Within days the 'problem' had left!




Easier to use one of these.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mosquito


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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: The next 25 years; were do we go from here? new [Re: Joe F Gafford]
      #6216633 - 11/26/13 08:26 AM

Quote:

George,
That is not new. A convenience store owner had the same problem in the 1990's. He put Yanni on his system with the same results. Another followed with Mozart's Piano Sonatas on his. Yet another tried with similar, but the neighbors in the back complained about the music. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

Joe




Joe, noticed in your sig that your camera/lenses were stolen. Hope they catch whomever took your camera/lenses. I'd let Cathy at S&S know in case they try to sell them.


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GeneT
Ely Kid
*****

Reged: 11/07/08

Loc: South Texas
Re: The next 25 years; were do we go from here? new [Re: George N]
      #6217590 - 11/26/13 04:38 PM

It doesn't look good--but we can hope, and continue our educational efforts to inform citizenry, to include city and business leaders that less light will not result in more crime.

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gdd
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 11/23/05

Loc: N Seattle suburb, WA
Re: The next 25 years; were do we go from here? new [Re: George N]
      #6218265 - 11/26/13 10:20 PM

Quote:

I recently saw a humorous news story relative to night time 'crime': A famous US fast food restaurant (with big yellow arches) had a problem with 'youth' setting up camp in their parking lot, with resulting crime such as fights, drugs, etc. The bright parking lot lights did not help, nor did calls to the police (kids just returned after the cops left). Then the owner hit on a solution: speakers blasting the lot with continuous classical opera. Within days the 'problem' had left!




Very likely the bright parking lot lights attracted the kids to the site. After all, they want to be able to see each other.

Gale


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nytecam
Postmaster


Reged: 08/20/05

Loc: London UK
Re: The next 25 years; were do we go from here? [Re: George N]
      #6220968 - 11/28/13 09:29 AM

Quote:

......I personally think that if we don't address this 'fear of the dark' issu e and lack of knowledge on what the new tech can accomplish, LP will only continue to increase.


Fear of the dark is an innate human characteristic like breathing or 'high-fives' - it can't simple be dismissed - must try harder :-)

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drago
sage


Reged: 01/11/08

Loc: Latvia
Re: The next 25 years; were do we go from here? new [Re: nytecam]
      #6228380 - 12/02/13 04:08 AM

i think, near future is very bright ( in a bad,poor meaning).
LED lighting gets cheaper and more available - it is more efficient, as electricity bills has minimilised. i think, night sky in that world can be saved only throught bad times, when peoples do very careful with resources. e g earth meet big asteroid impact, who seriously damage most countries, especially a rich one, or supervulcan eruption, or a big world war, or so on. sadly, that is a bad scenarious, and there is no winners in human race in that time, but i cannot see another way. no one can refuse, decline an "rich life" spend light, electricity, bought really unwanted, but "cool" cars, clothes, and so on.
that is most humans nature, who leds to ecological and another chrisis...


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Illinois
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/18/06

Loc: near Dixon, Illinois USA
Re: The next 25 years; were do we go from here? new [Re: drago]
      #6228522 - 12/02/13 07:48 AM

New bad street light still out there! Why not new law that is company cant make bad streetlight! Chicago streetlight is very bad and someday they have to replace then hope it would be better streetlight! I see new homes in far out of suburbs have new bad streetlight!

Edited by Illinois (12/02/13 07:49 AM)


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BrooksObs
professor emeritus


Reged: 12/08/12

Re: The next 25 years; were do we go from here? new [Re: Illinois]
      #6242229 - 12/09/13 09:18 AM

Speaking from a point of very long perspective, for 40 years spanning 1960 to 2000, I saw an endless string of promises that the coming generation of new outdoor/commercial lighting would, in one way or another, better the observers' situation. Each and everyone of these promises proved false and the skies grew ever brighter. My semi-rural location declined from a Bortle class 2 to one of class 4-5 over the period cited. Believe me, nothing will get any better in the way of lighting's impact in the future. It will only get universally worse.

BrooksObs


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contedracula
super member


Reged: 10/11/11

Loc: Queens, NYC and Sarasota FL
Re: The next 25 years; were do we go from here? new [Re: BrooksObs]
      #6257460 - 12/17/13 02:28 AM

The problem is that They tell us the beautiful story of public lighting for our safety, but this is only an advantage for the Electricity companies, The same story of Henry Ford, He asked the state to build cities a long way for always using the car.

I often be not far from Camden, NJ a town very dangerous at night, but I do not think that if it becomes like Times Square ends the crime.

Thanks
Gianluca


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