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Equipment Discussions >> Cats & Casses

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Daniel Mounsey
Vendor (Woodland Hills)
*****

Reged: 06/12/02

Re: Why do people even buy SCTs??? new [Re: TG]
      #6243978 - 12/10/13 01:10 AM

Tanveer,

I agree that SCT's can be very well made, but in my opinion, the SCT is not an ideal design, particularly with purists and in my opinion, it's harder to make them to very high standards. For one, most of them suffer from image shift. As far as cool down, an open tube DK suffers worse than an SCT during the acclimating process.
Daniel


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drago
sage


Reged: 01/11/08

Loc: Latvia
Re: Why do people even buy SCTs??? new [Re: gmartin02]
      #6244185 - 12/10/13 07:44 AM

[quote

Large Newts (12"+) - Much harder/more expensive to mount than a SCT, although I did find a site by a guy in Australia that takes some decent planetary images with a Newt: http://www.acquerra.com.au/astro/






you forgot, or , not know for large newtonians is a cheap and good mount - dobsonian mount.
it include versions with goto and / or equatorial platform for long exposures without field rotation.
i think, for large apertures ( and even for 200mm - mounts loike EQ5 /HEQ5), dobsonian type mount is supperior against others. simple, with low center of mass, easy to carry and set-up. cannot compare with german equatorial.


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Footbag
Post Laureate
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Reged: 04/13/09

Loc: Scranton, PA
Re: Why do people even buy SCTs??? new [Re: drago]
      #6244199 - 12/10/13 08:08 AM

I don't think anyone is saying that an SCT will put out similar views to a premium refractor of a similar aperture. Keep in mind that refractor will be a $10,000 plus instrument. It will, put up a view that looks similar to all but the optical purists. That is where the SCT beats the refractor.

As far as a dob mounted newt, they are very similar to SCT's just with their own limitations. Visual only, large tube, difficult EP locations, diffraction spikes. But, buy a premium mirror and the price is still well above an SCT.

For the EQ mounted Newts, they are similar to SCT's. They do have larger mount requirements, awkward EP locations, diffraction spikes. I'm guessing the new ATxxIN's are testing to have great mirrors? They are priced very well. Otherwise, the premium newts are very expensive and not really comparable to SCT's.

I suspect that a lot of people here are comparing SCT's to premium refractors, dobs and newts. Compare them to similarly priced ones and that's where they shine.


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Why do people even buy SCTs??? new [Re: Footbag]
      #6244815 - 12/10/13 01:41 PM

Quote:

I suspect that a lot of people here are comparing SCT's to premium refractors, dobs and newts. Compare them to similarly priced ones and that's where they shine.




I think when it comes to optics, you can more for your money with a premium Dobsonian that with an SCT.

But what I have come to realize is that as much as people discuss optics, mounts etc, the advantages of this design over that design, the limitations, the weaknesses, the strengths, what really matters is something else..

It's what I call the "observing experience", the "experience of owning a telescope."

Certainly there are differences at the eyepiece between a 12 inch LX-200 and my 12.5 inch F/4.06 Dob and some of these differences are important in the "viewing experience", the field of view for example. But these are more symptoms of what really matters and that is the overall experience of observing and owning a particular type of telescope.

The big differences are not so much in what one sees in the eyepiece as how one relates to the telescope. To me, I believe it is that relationship that is most important. To me an SCT, I have owned a few, is a black box, the scope is a black box, the mount is a black box, the observer sits back from the telescope, isolated from the workings and the tinkerings and just enjoys the view.

Dobsonians, at least for me, it's a much more intimate relationship, one does not sit behind the scope and let it do it's thing, you sit alongside it, almost hugging it and work the sky as a team..

I could write much more but I prefer not to. Rather I do think it is worth changing the thrust of this thread from "the my telescope does this better than your telescope" to just carefully investigating the differences in the observing experience because those are the real reasons why we choose the equipment we choose...

Jon Isaacs


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TG
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/02/06

Loc: Latitude 47
Re: Why do people even buy SCTs??? new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #6244825 - 12/10/13 01:47 PM

Quote:

Tanveer,

I agree that SCT's can be very well made, but in my opinion, the SCT is not an ideal design, particularly with purists and in my opinion, it's harder to make them to very high standards. For one, most of them suffer from image shift. As far as cool down, an open tube DK suffers worse than an SCT during the acclimating process.
Daniel




Daniel, the shortcomings you are pointing out are, I acknowledge, real but are not a function of the design. They are really a figment of the price point at which these SCTs are made. Make them at the TEC Maksutov prices and see how well they'll turn out.

Here's one that supposedly turned out very well. From the link posted earlier in this thread, it held its own against the AP Mak.

Tanveer.


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Itz marcus
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 02/12/06

Loc: Brooklyn NY
Re: Why do people even buy SCTs??? new [Re: TG]
      #6244856 - 12/10/13 02:04 PM

Hi,
I've been reading this thread from the beginning.
Truth be told I only have my own scopes to compare views. I am not able to join clubs as they all observe on Fri. and Sat. night which is out for me as I am a Sabbath observer (no pun intended ) I also have my pocket to contend with as well as what I must shlep in order to observe. I have owned an EON 120 since they came out and just bought a C8. I do love the views through the EON but the views through the C8 (when collimated) are brighter and easier to pick out details with. In addition deep sky is a possibility in my light poisoned area. A dob is a big bulky thing which I know I won't use the 4-6 times a week that I use my scopes now (weather permitting). The FOV is smaller that my EON but boy is this a pleasing scope.
When comparing premium apos to my EON (poor mans apo) it's always said that the premium may perform that extra 3% better but to most that is not worth $5000 extra. Maybe the same can be said when comparing SCT's to other premium scopes they may perform better but does it justify the price premium? The purchasing track of many in the astronomy world says that it doesn't.
Clear Skies
Itz


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gmartin02
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 04/11/05

Loc: Santa Clarita, CA
Re: Why do people even buy SCTs??? new [Re: drago]
      #6244934 - 12/10/13 02:35 PM

Quote:

Large Newts (12"+) - Much harder/more expensive to mount than a SCT, although I did find a site by a guy in Australia that takes some decent planetary images with a Newt: http://www.acquerra.com.au/astro/



you forgot, or , not know for large newtonians is a cheap and good mount - dobsonian mount.
it include versions with goto and / or equatorial platform for long exposures without field rotation.
i think, for large apertures ( and even for 200mm - mounts loike EQ5 /HEQ5), dobsonian type mount is supperior against others. simple, with low center of mass, easy to carry and set-up. cannot compare with german equatorial.



Hi Drago,

My quote was referring only to mounting a Newtonian on an EQ GEM mount for imaging. Sorry for the confusion.

You do bring up a very good point: A large Dob on an equatorial platform should also make a very good planetary imaging solution (with proper balancing). Since the exposure times are very short for planetary imaging, the tracking doesn't have to be as good as it needs to be for long exposure AP - just good enough to show no drift during the short exposures.

There are some decent examples of planetary images taken through Dobs on EQ platforms here: http://www.equatorialplatforms.com/image.of.month.shtml

Edited by gmartin02 (12/10/13 02:48 PM)


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BillP
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 11/26/06

Loc: Vienna, VA
Re: Why do people even buy SCTs??? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6244963 - 12/10/13 02:49 PM

Quote:

To me, I believe it is that relationship that is most important. To me an SCT, I have owned a few, is a black box, the scope is a black box, the mount is a black box, the observer sits back from the telescope, isolated from the workings and the tinkerings and just enjoys the view.

Dobsonians, at least for me, it's a much more intimate relationship, one does not sit behind the scope and let it do it's thing, you sit alongside it, almost hugging it and work the sky as a team.




Jon,

I think what you wrote perfectly answers the title of this thread. Aperture is simply one, and not necessarily a predominent one, in a myriad of variables involved in why people like a particular telescope. This huge mix variables, from optical to ergonomic to personal, become the foundation of the relationship one can or cannot have with a scope. Your expression relative to the Newtonian is an absolutely wonderful image and coveys quite well why this design is the ultimate for you and why no discussion or opinion can or should sway that. Perfect response


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Ed Holland
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 06/16/10

Loc: San Jose, CA and Oxford, UK
Re: Why do people even buy SCTs??? new [Re: BillP]
      #6245004 - 12/10/13 03:04 PM

I wonder if Eddgie is still laughing?

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PowellAstro
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 10/14/09

Loc: Tennessee
Re: Why do people even buy SCTs??? new [Re: Ed Holland]
      #6245103 - 12/10/13 03:55 PM

I have had and still have all types. The SCT is my favorite design. I have seen and taken my best images with a SCT. It is also much more comfortable to use.

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shawnhar
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 06/25/10

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: Why do people even buy SCTs??? new [Re: BillP]
      #6245206 - 12/10/13 04:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

To me, I believe it is that relationship that is most important. To me an SCT, I have owned a few, is a black box, the scope is a black box, the mount is a black box, the observer sits back from the telescope, isolated from the workings and the tinkerings and just enjoys the view.

Dobsonians, at least for me, it's a much more intimate relationship, one does not sit behind the scope and let it do it's thing, you sit alongside it, almost hugging it and work the sky as a team.




Jon,

I think what you wrote perfectly answers the title of this thread. Aperture is simply one, and not necessarily a predominent one, in a myriad of variables involved in why people like a particular telescope. This huge mix variables, from optical to ergonomic to personal, become the foundation of the relationship one can or cannot have with a scope. Your expression relative to the Newtonian is an absolutely wonderful image and coveys quite well why this design is the ultimate for you and why no discussion or opinion can or should sway that. Perfect response



Agree 100%


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Daniel Mounsey
Vendor (Woodland Hills)
*****

Reged: 06/12/02

Re: Why do people even buy SCTs??? new [Re: TG]
      #6246009 - 12/10/13 11:04 PM

Tanveer,
That looks like a nice scope Allister reviewed and the comments about how it compared to the Mak are impressive. I'd have to say this is an example of a well made SCT.


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jgraham
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 12/02/04

Loc: Miami Valley Astronomical Soci...
Re: Why do people even buy SCTs??? new [Re: shawnhar]
      #6246014 - 12/10/13 11:05 PM


To each their own.



Edited by kkokkolis (12/17/13 06:06 AM)


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A6Q6
sage


Reged: 05/31/11

Loc: Stroudsburg,Pa,U.S.A
Re: Why do people even buy SCTs??? new [Re: jgraham]
      #6246018 - 12/10/13 11:08 PM



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Dwight J
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 05/14/09

Loc: Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada
Re: Why do people even buy SCTs??? new [Re: jgraham]
      #6246136 - 12/11/13 12:11 AM

laughing my posterior region off


Edited by Dwight J (12/11/13 12:11 AM)


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Traveler
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 08/19/07

Loc: The Netherlands
Re: Why do people even buy SCTs??? new [Re: Dwight J]
      #6246258 - 12/11/13 02:24 AM

When people buy a SCT and it is not a top notch one(a so called lemmon), what are the possibilities to modify the lemmon in a way that the SCT will produce better views?

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mattz
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 12/03/06

Loc: Where is Rescue CA?
Re: Why do people even buy SCTs??? new [Re: Traveler]
      #6246282 - 12/11/13 02:54 AM

If I could only have one scope, I would keep my xt10i, for many of the same reasons Jon excellently outlines above.

But when I need to carry a scope somewhere, it is hard to beat the 1.2 lbs. per inch I get with my C6. (3.5 lbs. per inch with tripod, mount, scope, EP, diagonal, etc.)


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roadi
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 08/18/07

Loc: GGS
Re: Why do people even buy SCTs??? new [Re: TG]
      #6246366 - 12/11/13 05:49 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Tanveer,

I agree that SCT's can be very well made, but in my opinion, the SCT is not an ideal design, particularly with purists and in my opinion, it's harder to make them to very high standards. For one, most of them suffer from image shift. As far as cool down, an open tube DK suffers worse than an SCT during the acclimating process.
Daniel




Daniel, the shortcomings you are pointing out are, I acknowledge, real but are not a function of the design. They are really a figment of the price point at which these SCTs are made. Make them at the TEC Maksutov prices and see how well they'll turn out.

Here's one that supposedly turned out very well. From the link posted earlier in this thread, it held its own against the AP Mak.

Tanveer.




That would be a lifetime instrument!
Unfortunately no one makes such a fine instruments any more!!


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Why do people even buy SCTs??? new [Re: Traveler]
      #6246479 - 12/11/13 08:00 AM

Quote:

When people buy a SCT and it is not a top notch one(a so called lemmon), what are the possibilities to modify the lemon in a way that the SCT will produce better views?




It is not so easy since there are three curved surfaces and the quality of the image depends on all three and how they interact. A Newtonian is much simpler because it has only one curved surface so the individual components are independent of each other. A flat is a flat and a parabola is a parabola... you just need one of each. With an SCT, specific correctors, secondaries and primaries are designed to work together.

Jon


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Sarkikos
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 12/18/07

Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
Re: Why do people even buy SCTs??? new [Re: Eddgie]
      #6246511 - 12/11/13 08:30 AM

Quote:

But these days, I am more inclined to recommend a small refractor. Nothing to do. Just plug and play.




Nothing much to see either. But at least they are ready to go whenever you are.

Mike


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